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Lightstream
17th of May 2007 (Thu), 05:15
There is precious, precious little information about tripods out there - only when you start searching for a review then you realize how difficult information is to find.

I am first and foremost a landscape, cityscape photographer. Long exposures at night demand a tripod, there is no way around it. I also love fireworks, both watching them, and now, taking photos of them. I doubt there are many mortals who can handhold 4 seconds, f/8 ISO 100 for a hundred frames back to back, hence the need for tripods

What I am not - a tripod or gear reviewer. I am not even sure if I qualify to review one of these but on the premise that SOME information is better than none, I have decided to write it. While care has been taken to ensure this information is correct to the best of my knowledge, use it at your own peril.

As has been truthfully said, tripods are a pain. They always are. I dump the tripod most of the time and go handheld whenever possible. I also invested heavily in image stabilized lenses, but as serious user of IS, I also understand their limitations. While IS is an amazing technology that has opened up whole new worlds to me, it is not a tripod replacement and not meant to be.


Part 1
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My first experience was with a tripod I call the Supermarket Special. This is a very typical tripod made by some unknown OEM and re-branded under a million names. You will know it when you see it - a cheesy panhead, lightweight aluminium construction, flip-locks on the legs, triangle brace in the center, sold at many supermarkets, usually at a hefty discount. I bought one. I figured I could not lose; I was wrong. The only reason why I feel that I can point out a potential mistake now is because I have made it myself.

I still remember the one and only shoot that tripod went on. I remember setting up, and wondering why it was so shaky when fully deployed with nothing more than a 350D and kit lens on it. Or why the quick release plate (largely PLASTIC) and holder (also plastic) did not inspire a sense of confidence. Well, what choice did I have. Set up and start shooting.

I was lucky, because as I would later discover, the panhead had a plastic screw thread where it joined the aluminium center column. Cheap plastic vs aluminium: plastic loses. The threads stripped and the head fell off. It was only through sheer, crazy luck that the camera was NOT on the tripod - I had around my neck because I was handholding the camera at an odd angle to take a photo that was not accessible with the tripod. I hear this bang next to me, and while the tripod's still on my shoulder, the head is on the ground. My camera was and still is my baby, and I worked like hell to afford the money to buy that 350D. Times are better now and I have nice glass, nice tripods, but back then, a 350D was already a huge stretch - I had a budget for a superzoom P&S and I shoved a 350D in there somehow with a lot of sacrifice.

It was also lucky that some of the shots, while not technically perfect, impressed me (the n00b) so much that I decided to buy another tripod, if not it is entirely possible I may have decided never to invest in a tripod again.

Part 2
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Next tripod was the Slik Sprint Pro GM. I wanted something LIGHT. Till this day, I hate heavy tripods. The Sprint Pro was awesome, and a tripod I really enjoyed carrying because of its light weight. 860 grams, ALL IN, including the head. Awesome. Fliplock legs in 4 sections (3 locks), even a ballhead. This was the tripod that taught me to love a ballhead. This is personal preference, we will get to it later.

The only disadvantage of the Slik is that it had no quick release plate, a Giottos MH625 QR assembly resolved this quite easily. 1/4 female thread on the bottom of the QR assembly (screws onto the ballhead), 1/4 male thread on top of the QR plate. No problem. The Slik stayed with me for quite a while, and I still recommend it (with a few caveats to bear in mind).

Caveats? Yes - there are some. The shots I took were never really critically sharp. I simply put it down to entry level DSLR gear, in bad light (usually in the evenings). They were adequately sharp and I have good 8x12" prints from some of them in my portfolio, but at 100% they are never quite as good as sharp shots in daylight (even on the same gear). As a n00b, this did not quite occur to me, but at least I enjoyed my time with the tripod. If you hate the huge aluminium brick, it will stay at home. It will therefore be useless. SOME tripod is better than NO tripod - bear this in mind.

Things only really came to a head when I upgraded to the 5D and 24-105. In retrospect that was really stupid, putting a 5D on this tripod and expecting it to work. Half second shots were so blurry as to be nearly unuseable. The weight of a big lens, even with the stabilizer running, and the weight of the 5D totally overloaded this tripod and ballhead. I have seen folks with 70-200's on it - I just can't imagine how they can get away with it. The tiny Slik SBH-100 head was beginning to give up - the lockup just was not secure enough. It is not designed for these applications, period.

We'll skip to the conclusions for those planning to get the Slik:
- KNOW THY LIMITATIONS. This applies to *ANY* tripod. Here are the limitations:
- Adequate for cameras up to 350D/400D, and 17-85 or 10-22mm (or similar) lenses. I have tested that combo.
- Really performs best with a bridge camera, 12X superzoom P&S or whatever you call it.
- Wonderfully light. I love the weight, I still do.
- Get a QR plate, look for the Giottos. The plate stayed with me, it's now directly attached to my monopod.
- The Slik MAY be able to carry heavier loads - but consider upgrading the ballhead.


Part 3
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A trip to the local camera shop, one of my trusted dealers with outstanding service (including 'save your bacon when it counts most' service) let me in on something interesting: he was bringing in a new tripod from a brand we'd never heard of, apparently Manfrotto magfiber (CF) quality at a fraction of the price. I told him to get real; he told me to come back in 2 weeks time, I did.

Initially I was considering just buying a better ballhead, but really, I work technology - I preach 'integrated systems'. Every part of the system has to work together. It also looked ridiculous, a huge ballhead on a tiny tripod, so I decided to replace the entire rig.

They'd brought in the Benro series of tripods. I know they catch a whole lot of flak but I have put over a year of use on mine, landed lots of amazing photos with it. I too was skeptical, but my dealer offered me two things - a demonstration of a 300/2.8 (well it *WAS* a Nikkor lens with pro Nikon body and power booster) on it, and the same 'save your bacon' service if anything happened to the tripod. They slapped a 300/2.8 and angled it up at 45 degres and it seemed solid enough. My comment was "The day I can buy a 300/2.8 I can afford a Gitzo". (you can guess - the Gitzo has come, but the 300/2.8 is still eluding me ;) )

Unwilling to pony up the $$ for the carbon fiber models, I settled on the aluminium and walked out of the shop with a Benro A127n6 and a Benro KS-1 ballhead. This is, frankly, unbeatable value. I paid $90 for each part. This was my first serious tripod, and it was.. no, it is, pretty darn decent.

By and large, I shoot ultra wide. I seldom use a telephoto on a tripod simply because I have no need to. This means 10-22 on APS-C crop cameras, or 17-40 on full frame. UW is pretty tolerant of vibrations and thus, the aluminium tripod worked well even for 15-30 second exposures even at 100%. This fixed the Slik's problem of insufficient sharpness on long exposures because the weight and the rigidity of the Benro beat the stuffing out of the Slik. Unfortunately, weight had gone up to 1.68kg for the pod itself and the head added another 600gm. The carbon fiber models available at that time, over a year ago at this point, did not offer me much weight saving - maybe 200gm here and there. Not enough for me to pay 3X the amount of $$.

Note that 'pro' tripods will sell legs and heads separately, this way you can mix and match. Experienced photogs are supposed to know what they want; we know this is not always the case, but that's the way the world is.

The Benro came with a neat tripod bag as well, I really like the bag. It also has one leg wrapped in neoprene, which is useful for when you are shooting in the cold or when you are carrying it over your shoulder.

Another compromise of the Benro, besides the weight, was the fact that it used twist-lock legs. I have never liked twist locks. I have ALWAYS liked fliplocks, from day zero. The Supermarket Special and the Slik had fliplocks. I simply resigned myself to the fact that to get good value and good performance, something had to give.

An interesting observation of mine is that a staggering 80-90% of fellow photogs I meet at fireworks events seem to be using the Supermarket Special. If we are talking tripods, even an entry level Benro will stomp ALL over the Supermarket Special. Really, IMO, the Benro is more like a Manfrotto 190 without the weight.



Part 3A
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Here's where I meet the 'real' tripod. A bit dated, but a real solid combo nevertheless. An aluminium Gitzo G120 (I can't even find much info about this on the Net!) with an Arca Swiss B1, The Real Deal. The B1 is supposedly the be-all-end-all ballhead. I can tell you it is really solid, it is also really freaking heavy.

The Supermarket Special came in useful here, or at least the bag did.. since I borrowed the G120+AS, I did not have a bag, so I hijacked the bag from the $20 tripod. The irony.

I evaluated it against the Benro rig I was using, it was good, but I would rate them on par (from first impressions). I have no idea about the long term performance. They felt surprisingly similar and they both worked well, delivering the results where I needed them.

I've also used a friend's Manfrotto 190, now that is one amazingly solid tripod, you could slay fierce beasts and dragons with it, but it will also slay your shoulders at 2.2kg WITHOUT head. It's an awesome tripod and very stable, but the weight is just way out there. Then he put another kilo of panhead on it.. YIKES!! Well maybe it's a good thing he's substantially better built than I am....


Part 4A
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Again I say, know thy limitations. I set out to test the limitations, and where the Benro KS-1 ballhead was finally beginning to show its limits was with a 100-400 zoom lens attached to a 1D classic 4MP body. This combo is six pounds! The A127n6 legset was holding up just fine but I could not lock the KS-1 down securely enough when using this combo, especially when it was not parallel to the ground. This is a fairly extreme scenario, with a very long tele on a very heavy body. Other combos worked just fine, including a Sigma 70-200/2.8 on 1D, 100-400 with lighter body such as 5D or 350D. Anything less should work just fine.

The other thing which annoyed me was the dual knobs - I had to lock down the tension control AND the ballhead. Another trip to the house of temptation.. err, the camera shop, yielded a useful surprise: the Markins Q3 ballhead. This head is pretty dang amazing. For a 385gm piece of hardware, it can hold 30 KILOS. And they said they'd put a Wimberley Sidekick with Canon 300/2.8 ISL on this tiny little head. Again see comment about my 300/2.8 being far off - not today, not tomorrow, ask again in 2 years time ;)

Plus, the Markins, like the Arca Swiss, has only one knob and the tension control dial at the side. Plus I liked its very short throw from lock to unlock, so I bought it.


Here is where I have extra respect for the Benro ballheads. One of the BIGGEST reasons why I like them is that they use the more or less 'open' standard of the Arca dovetail plates. I do not like proprietary ballhead plates, because you are essentially 'locked in' to a system. Suppose that the manufacturer doesn't make a head that suits your requirements. You are now forced to dump all your plates as well as the ballhead. You're limited in your choice of accessories, you can't leverage third party plates and other innovative creations. The open standard Arca compatible plates are, in my opinion, the ONLY way to fly - period. The Benro's introduced me to Arca plates and I have always been grateful for that.

When I switched to the Markins, ALL my existing plates came with me. No re-investment. No problem! I'm still using those plates, including a Camdapter plate that I particularly like. No, you will never find me buying into another closed system again. I bought the Giottos MH625 knowing it would be a 'dead end' system, that I'd use it, but not buy other accessories for it.

The Markins is amazing. Handled my 1-4 and 1D with no problems. You might have seen this image I toss around at times. I haven't actually been able to buy sufficient camera hardware to find out its limitations. I will probably stay that way. I used the Markins on my A127 for a long time, and I still highly recommend the A127n6, for anything lighter than a 100-400 with 1D. These are outstanding value for money, reasonable weight, reasonable rigidity, and decent performance.

http://pix.lightrefineries.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=2052&g2_serialNumber=2

Lightstream
17th of May 2007 (Thu), 05:15
Part 4B
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The A127n6, while nice and sturdy, was beginning to get heavy. I've discovered the less weight I carry, the happier I am. I'm a hobbyist photog, I am not paid to carry massive amounts of gear. I have always believed in fast and light, too. Yes, I have carried 50 pound packs before, and that is the reason why I do not want to do it again. Plus, all the good photo ops involve lots of walking, climbing, and maneuvering into odd places. I do not have the luxury of driving up to every photo op, I have to park and walk far. One of the places I spend a great deal of time in has 90 degree F (30+C) weather and I swear, 110% humidity. I sometimes feel like a fish when I arrive, because my lungs think they're sucking down water instead of air. You can try being a hero with a huge pack in that weather if you want, I'll take cover with my light f/4 lenses and small tripod and avoid heatstroke ;)

I evaluated a fair number of alternatives, including Benro's own C127n6 tripod, which the A127's carbon fiber cousin. However, less than 200gm of weight saving convinced me that paying 3X for it was not a good idea. To realize substantial weight savings and bring the weight down to 1.02kg, I would have to go down to the C027 series, which is one step down. That was not such a bad idea, and they were cheap ($200) compared to the Gitzo ($500!!).

Except that I ran into trouble - now that I am far from home, I have to run the gauntlet of ebay dealers carrying the Benro stuff. I could read the auctions from 6 dealers and get 8 different specifications. There is TREMENDOUS inconsistency in the specs, plus I had problems getting a clear answer. Benro practices continuous improvement, this is a good thing, but there are so many different models to keep up with, nobody has really explained what the 'n6' part is to me, and it doesn't inspire confidence.

And did I mention I HATE twist-lock legs on tripods? I'm tearing down my tripod in the dark on a coastal road somewhere far from civilization and I'm screwing and screwing and screwing. Plus I had one incident where I suspect the lock jumped a thread. That was quite alarming, it didn't happen again fortunately.


It so happened that I ran into a Gitzo GT1530 at PMA. I have had my eye on the Gitzo for a long time, just never could bring myself to cough up $500 for a tripod. That having been said I seem to quite happily do so for a lens. I know it sounds ridiculous but I'm saying that yes, I understand what's involved. I thought for weeks, and annoyed many POTN members :D (it's all good guys.. I am just poking fun). There were a number of very helpful people who came to my aid though (thanks to all those who replied in my tripod threads!). I looked at many options and decided to simply buy once, cry once, and make this the last time.

The things that absolutely blew me away were how light the Gitzo was, yet how it could carry really heavy loads. More importantly, the G-Lock system on their latest generation of tripods is absolutely wonderful. Did I say I hate twist locks? I'll say it again (in case you didn't hear it the last half dozen times ;) ) but Gitzo's G-lock is the first twist lock I have ever loved. The lock-unlock throw range is so short I feel like I am using my flip-locks again, plus the anti-leg-rotation (ALR) feature gives me back the ability to unlock all segments simultaneously with one twist of my hand - JUST like the way I did with the flip locks. So now I have all the advantages of fliplocks without the disadvantages - the G-lock system has superior rigidity, lock strength that increases as loads increase, and they don't get caught on anything like fliplocks do. To be honest, I never dreamed I would see the day when I would love a twist-lock.

JohnJ80 pointed out to me that while tripods are a pain, some are so nice to use you actually look forward to using them. This is one of them. This one has it all.. see below for the review.

Will this be the last tripod I need to buy for a long time? Probably. This will be my all-around light tripod for hiking, walking, landscapes. If I was to buy a supertele (and the odds are slim even if I could afford one - and I almost can, I am looking at a 1DM3 instead), I would probably deploy a Series 3 Gitzo (GT3530 or 3540) with a Markins M20 ballhead and/or Wimberley gimbal. But apart from that happening, since I am very unwilling to carry a supertele on its own to begin with, I think this is the last stop for me.

Lightstream
17th of May 2007 (Thu), 05:16
One of the nice things about the Gitzo is the additional height. It's only 9cm taller than the Benro, but those few cm actually make a big difference in how much my back has to bend.
http://pix.lightrefineries.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=3078&g2_serialNumber=2

G-lock:
http://pix.lightrefineries.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=3081&g2_serialNumber=2

http://pix.lightrefineries.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=3084&g2_serialNumber=2

Compared to the Benro:
http://pix.lightrefineries.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=3093&g2_serialNumber=2

The Benro came with a full-blown tripod bag, carrying strap and all. I thought that was a nice touch. Gitzo is saying that the new tripods ship with an 'anti dust bag'. Well, this is what you get:
http://pix.lightrefineries.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=3096&g2_serialNumber=2

It is much nicer than the plastic bag I expected, since it is a drawstring bag that's reuseable, but I still had to buy a $25 Giottos tripod bag for field carry.

The Gitzo also features "Ground level set" where you can remove the center column entirely and screw the top halves (mounting plate and bottom hook) into each other. This is useful to save weight and to get the tripod down to ground level as its name indicates. You can go very, VERY low with this tripod. Practically sitting on top of the ground. Just pull out the small little "Gitzo" tabs at the side of the legs, and then you can splay the legs out at even wider angles.

One more nifty feature, the hook is spring loaded so it sits flush with the column when not in use to reduce the chance of it snagging. Small details like this are useful.

In closing....it is never easy to cough up $$ for good gear. It wasn't for me and I very, very nearly bought the cheaper Benro carbon fiber on impulse before the weekend but decided to take a day and think about it. That's not to say Benro is bad, I still feel the A127n6 offers superb value for photogs on a budget who need a SOLID tripod, but I did ask myself whether I would be happy with anything less. Now that I have the GT1530, I know I would not have accepted a compromise so easily. Hope this makes it just that little bit easier for others who have to make the call.

Prydain
17th of May 2007 (Thu), 07:01
Enjoyable read. Thanks for sharing. I just got a G026 Gitzo aluminum. Very nice, although a step down from the G120 you got to try.

Lightstream
17th of May 2007 (Thu), 07:59
Enjoyable read. Thanks for sharing. I just got a G026 Gitzo aluminum. Very nice, although a step down from the G120 you got to try.


Very cool :) Thanks for your help with the tripod decision, it was not easy but I am very happy with what I have now.

The G1157 would probably have been just fine, but the 1530 is that much nicer and I love it. It's probably the difference between excellent and awesome, but there is a difference. I would still recommend the G1157 as a good deal since it is being closed out. I used to buy my laptops like that - one generation behind, but that's because computers depreciate so fast.

Prydain
17th of May 2007 (Thu), 08:41
Very cool :) Thanks for your help with the tripod decision, it was not easy but I am very happy with what I have now.

The G1157 would probably have been just fine, but the 1530 is that much nicer and I love it. It's probably the difference between excellent and awesome, but there is a difference. I would still recommend the G1157 as a good deal since it is being closed out. I used to buy my laptops like that - one generation behind, but that's because computers depreciate so fast.

I would agree for the most part on the computers. I try to stay more than a generation behind if I can. All depends on need.

I think that your tripod progression is a very prudent course. I do not agree with those that say buy once for life as a generic rule of thumb, simply because most photographers evolve with regard to interests and needs. As your needs changed, your tripods improved. For most, to spend high dollars on a high end tripod might lock them into a tripod inadequate or simply wrong for what they wind up shooting down the road. That does not mean buy cheap or totally inadequate for any intended use, such as your supermarket special. But that was truly an inexpensive mistake, and I too have thrown out my specials long ago. After that step though you followed a solid course of need evaluation now versus the future and exercised good value awareness, IMHO. More than that, I think you really appreciate the quality of what you now own. Finally, you have aligned yourself with a good local camera store. I think we totally underestimate the value that brings to the equation. A local rep that backs what they sell covers a multitude of sins.

Lightstream
17th of May 2007 (Thu), 09:30
I would agree for the most part on the computers. I try to stay more than a generation behind if I can. All depends on need.

I think that your tripod progression is a very prudent course. I do not agree with those that say buy once for life as a generic rule of thumb, simply because most photographers evolve with regard to interests and needs. As your needs changed, your tripods improved. For most, to spend high dollars on a high end tripod might lock them into a tripod inadequate or simply wrong for what they wind up shooting down the road. That does not mean buy cheap or totally inadequate for any intended use, such as your supermarket special. But that was truly an inexpensive mistake, and I too have thrown out my specials long ago. After that step though you followed a solid course of need evaluation now versus the future and exercised good value awareness, IMHO. More than that, I think you really appreciate the quality of what you now own. Finally, you have aligned yourself with a good local camera store. I think we totally underestimate the value that brings to the equation. A local rep that backs what they sell covers a multitude of sins.

Very eloquently said! http://pix.lightrefineries.org/img/bow.gif

A gradual but well considered progression allows one to identify what traits are important to oneself, and take advantage of advancing technology. If I had bought Gitzo a couple of years ago I would not have the newer technologies. The G120 is impressive and will still continue to be functional many years from now but as always tech moves on and it 'appears' to be dated (it isn't really, just looks that way) next to what is state of the art today.

And that's not to say the Chinese are standing still either. As seen in squiress' ballhead teardown thread, it seems they are making incremental improvements at a very rapid rate.

Also, the similarities between the Benros and the Gitzos may turn out to be a winning situation for all of us in the end - Benro is forcing Gitzo to innovate (we got G-locks, redesigned mounting disks and upgraded bolts for 2006). There will always be copies and other claimants to the throne, if one is to truly maintain market leadership then one must consistently BE the best, and that is not easy.

BTW I notice you have a setup that's geared for super telephotos, but the longest lens in your sig is the DO. Do you rent?

Prydain
17th of May 2007 (Thu), 10:12
BTW I notice you have a setup that's geared for super telephotos, but the longest lens in your sig is the DO. Do you rent?

Borrow.:D

I have a 500 scheduled for fall acquisition. I take a slightly different approach to gear acquisition. I don't want to get to large $$$ lens acquisition and then buy the things one needs to use it properly. So getting tripod and head were good things to do and I will be ready when time comes to spend only the money required for the lens (well, then I'll get the lens coat and additions to my Rotation 360, etc, so maybe I'm kidding myself.);)

inthedeck
17th of May 2007 (Thu), 12:05
Nice write-up, I must say. Can you post some more pictures, of the separate pieces? And the Plates, as well. I have a hard time visualizing things when I can't see them...so, that would be helpful to me, to see each piece, and then everything pieced together, as you have shown, above.

Still searching for a good tripod...and this seems like a good way to go. The heaviest lens/combo I probably have is the 300f4l IS plus 1.4TC, and the 400 5.6L with same. I don't think that anything bigger is in my immediate future...but, as far as tripods go, I can always get something that holds a couple of extra pounds, if it doesn't mean a significant weight increase.

I too tend to travel light...but the gear is all pretty heavy...and then add to it a tripod...and that's where things just get outta control. :(

Again, nice write-up, and looks like you are finally heppy, with what you have.

Lightstream
17th of May 2007 (Thu), 21:20
Nice write-up, I must say. Can you post some more pictures, of the separate pieces? And the Plates, as well. I have a hard time visualizing things when I can't see them...so, that would be helpful to me, to see each piece, and then everything pieced together, as you have shown, above.

Still searching for a good tripod...and this seems like a good way to go. The heaviest lens/combo I probably have is the 300f4l IS plus 1.4TC, and the 400 5.6L with same. I don't think that anything bigger is in my immediate future...but, as far as tripods go, I can always get something that holds a couple of extra pounds, if it doesn't mean a significant weight increase.

I too tend to travel light...but the gear is all pretty heavy...and then add to it a tripod...and that's where things just get outta control. :(

Again, nice write-up, and looks like you are finally heppy, with what you have.

The QR plates? Sure, I'll put together a few pics of how it all fits when I get home later.

Also, Gitzo divides their tripods into series, with specific focal length recommendations. This is a Series 1 Mountaineer, and 1 is rated for lenses of up to 135mm (recommended) and 200mm (max). These are not 'breaking point' recommendations but rather, what the tripod is designed to hold in a stable manner. I believe these focal length recommendations are for full frame (based on Gitzo's angle of view).

Personally, I feel they can be pushed, again if you bear the limitations in mind. Gitzo indicates that if you want to push them you have to really focus on your technique and conditions. I'll add to that by saying that SOME tripod beats no tripod at all, because if you were to buy a 400mm-rated tripod and leave it at home because it's too big or heavy, you'd end up handholding, and Series 1 pushed to 400 vs handhold - well, the tripod is likely going to win most of the time in all but the brightest lighting conditions.

It's not just a weight issue - I used to think it was just about weight until Gitzo educated me about little things like torsional rigidity ;) speaking of which, if you can manage the weight, a Series 2 CF tripod might work for you.

Having kept that in mind, I would happily mount my 100-400 on the tripod anyway while knowing that the shots may not be critically sharp as they would have been with a designed-for-400mm tripod.

Thanks for the kind words.....yes, I'm very happy with this setup.. :)

Lightstream
17th of May 2007 (Thu), 21:22
Borrow.:D

I have a 500 scheduled for fall acquisition. I take a slightly different approach to gear acquisition. I don't want to get to large $$$ lens acquisition and then buy the things one needs to use it properly. So getting tripod and head were good things to do and I will be ready when time comes to spend only the money required for the lens (well, then I'll get the lens coat and additions to my Rotation 360, etc, so maybe I'm kidding myself.);)

You have good friends :mrgreen: yes, that is a good idea to lay in the infrastructure ahead of time. No point having a 500 and being unable to shoot it due to the lack of tripod, and now you're broke paying off the 500 so no $$ to buy the tripods!

foxbat
18th of May 2007 (Fri), 04:47
Think of it in terms of price per use. Over the coming years it will become the cheapest tripod you've ever bought.

René Damkot
18th of May 2007 (Fri), 10:09
Nice writeup!

JohnJ80
18th of May 2007 (Fri), 13:00
Very nice writeup and nice explanation of some of the options that are often debated here.

J

Ratafluke
19th of May 2007 (Sat), 16:24
Thanks for the long review/comparison, and for answering all my questions. Really helpful in finding the right tripod for me :)

blonde
19th of May 2007 (Sat), 18:12
fantastic ready Yoda, very well said!!! i do agree that once you go Arca you never go back, the problem is that you will find many new items to buy so you are always broke.

Lightstream
23rd of May 2007 (Wed), 03:45
Thanks again guys :)

I regret that I have not had the time to write in-depth explanations to many PM's I've received, so if you have questions please feel free to ask here. There are many other POTN'ers with even more experience than myself who can help you.

I have not tested the Markins Q3 with a 300/4 ISL or 400/5.6, but I have a reasonable expectation that they would work well. My testing was done with the 100-400 because that is, simply, what I have. I owned the 300/4 in the past and if anything it is lighter by a bit, so it should work on the Q3.

As requested here are some pics of the Arca clamp mount:
http://pix.lightrefineries.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=3135&g2_serialNumber=2
http://pix.lightrefineries.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=3147&g2_serialNumber=2
http://pix.lightrefineries.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=3144&g2_serialNumber=2
http://pix.lightrefineries.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=3138&g2_serialNumber=2
http://pix.lightrefineries.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=3147&g2_serialNumber=2

The plate has a normal 1/4" screw, you attach it to the camera, then you put the plate in the 'vise' and clamp it down. The two dovetail channels are there to help you seat the plate securely.

Also, a note of caution..... *NEVER* forget to hold your camera or equipment while releasing the clamp. IT WILL FALL OUT.

Lightstream
23rd of May 2007 (Wed), 05:19
Also, for those who require a more detailed explanation, please read the Really Right Stuff (RRS) catalog introduction pages. They explain how all the pieces fit together. Note that some of us have different hardware from different manufacturers but at the end of the day it is all conceptually the same.

http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/ReallyRightStuff2007.pdf

René Damkot
23rd of May 2007 (Wed), 06:20
What brand of plates are those? I see no 'safety stops' (whatdoyoucallit) to prevent sliding out. Also, I haven't seen any Arca plates with 'rubber' strips in the top (which IMO kinda defeat the purpose, since they will allow play between plate and camera).

Ballhead looks great.
I guess when finance allows (next century or so), it will be either that or an Arca Z1...

Lightstream
23rd of May 2007 (Wed), 06:59
My cheap legacy Benro plates. Left over from a time when I couldn't afford as much of the good stuff as I would like. Donations of nice RRS or Wimberley or even Markins' own plates are welcome, email for shipping address. I take Paypal too. ;)

No detents, no safety stops, good luck - hence my note of caution to always ensure your gear is off the clamp when opened. Always locked or always EMPTY (as in nothing in the clamp!)

Prydain
23rd of May 2007 (Wed), 07:39
My cheap legacy Benro plates. Left over from a time when I couldn't afford as much of the good stuff as I would like. Donations of nice RRS or Wimberley or even Markins' own plates are welcome, email for shipping address. I take Paypal too. ;)

No detents, no safety stops, good luck - hence my note of caution to always ensure your gear is off the clamp when opened. Always locked or always EMPTY (as in nothing in the clamp!)

I find it interesting that every Chinese ball mount I've looked at has some sort of safety catch mechanism built in, while my Arcas do not, nor any of the other clamp sets I've seen. RRS has grooves to use with the stop screws on their and Wimberley plates, but the camera or lens can still slide out the other side.:( I actually find the Wimberley clamps to be the least expensive quality clamps out there and that's what I put on my Gitzo 1275M off-center ball mount.

And unless someone can show me something innovative in the Markins implementation of the Arca design, the Z-1 is cheaper than the Markins. Why buy the copy?

Lightstream
23rd of May 2007 (Wed), 09:05
Because the Z-1 didn't exist until recently? The Q3 is also substantially lighter than the Z1 anyway, and it's hardly a copy - they've come up with some good innovations of their own. However their ballhead is not elliptical like the Arca.

By extension, RRS and everybody else is a 'copy' of the Arca too.

JohnJ80
23rd of May 2007 (Wed), 09:38
I find it interesting that every Chinese ball mount I've looked at has some sort of safety catch mechanism built in, while my Arcas do not, nor any of the other clamp sets I've seen. RRS has grooves to use with the stop screws on their and Wimberley plates, but the camera or lens can still slide out the other side.:( I actually find the Wimberley clamps to be the least expensive quality clamps out there and that's what I put on my Gitzo 1275M off-center ball mount.

And unless someone can show me something innovative in the Markins implementation of the Arca design, the Z-1 is cheaper than the Markins. Why buy the copy?

RRS non L plate plates have a safety stop. The L plates don't - and you wouldn't want them to, it would be a PITA.

Um, I think the Markins ballheads all precede the Z1. The Z1 is A-S's newest one, is it not? ;) IIRC, the B1 was their first one (but I'm no expert on A-S's products).



J

René Damkot
23rd of May 2007 (Wed), 09:43
but the camera or lens can still slide out the other side.
AFAIK the stop works both ways...

Lightstream
23rd of May 2007 (Wed), 09:44
Yes, the Markins all came before the Z1, when the original B1 was a huge heavy 2 pounder....

Prydain
23rd of May 2007 (Wed), 09:49
Because the Z-1 didn't exist until recently? The Q3 is also substantially lighter than the Z1 anyway, and it's hardly a copy - they've come up with some good innovations of their own. However their ballhead is not elliptical like the Arca.
By extension, RRS and everybody else is a 'copy' of the Arca too.

My comment was more for Rene':)

After reviewing the Markins site I have to retract the Z-1 being cheaper. It's about $50 more than the Q3, weighs a half pound more and appears to handle similar load. Looks like a good choice. And there appears to be a safety catch on the one I looked at. Does it require a Markins plate to use it?

Other than the ball concept I don't think the RSS mounts are copies of AS. Kirk is a copy of the older style AS. Markins is the one quality mount that both M10 and M20 look a whole bunch like the Z-1. Case is changed on Q3 so some design differences. If you can point me to the 'good innovations' I'd like to read what they are. Always willing to learn.:D

Lightstream
23rd of May 2007 (Wed), 09:50
The Camdapter plate I bought seems to have the safety stop for the Markins. It's just a 1/4" tripod hole, but it works nicely with the safety.

JohnJ80
23rd of May 2007 (Wed), 10:06
I also had corresponded with Markins last week about the Q3 and getting it without the clamp so I could add one of the RRS QR Lever clamp. The reply was that the Q3 without the clamp is $249.99 plus shipping. All you have to do is make a note in the comments (or call them, I suppose).

That would be my choice if I were buying a Q3. I like the RRS plates and especially the lever clamp better.

J

Prydain
23rd of May 2007 (Wed), 10:10
The AS 'lever clamp' came standard on the B23W. I don't think the RRS clamp is adjustable; the AS clamp is. I've used it with many different plates. It's also $25 more than the RRS.

focker
24th of May 2007 (Thu), 20:41
I just purchased the Gitzo GT1540T. This is one beautiful tripod that will work perfectly for me on my motorcycle adventures where I stumble across those can't miss landscape photo opportunities. I love how well it packs in my saddle bag! It is 15.3" long when closed and weighs 2.2lbs.

JohnJ80
24th of May 2007 (Thu), 22:17
The AS 'lever clamp' came standard on the B23W. I don't think the RRS clamp is adjustable; the AS clamp is. I've used it with many different plates. It's also $25 more than the RRS.

is there a link for this? I'd love to see it.

J

Prydain
25th of May 2007 (Fri), 06:46
is there a link for this? I'd love to see it.

J

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/342308-REG/Arca_Swiss_802019_Flip_Lock_Quick_Release_Adapter. html

The little chrome wheel inside the plate, inline with the lever rod is where you adjust it. You also have a release lock on the lever that allows you to open it by sliding it over. Comes with a nifty wrench as well that I would like to have had supplied with the B23W.

René Damkot
25th of May 2007 (Fri), 09:05
I've read a few things about the Arca QR clamp that put me off a bit (about the adjustment of the QR). What's your opinion on that?

One (http://www.liaoyusheng.com/arca/), two (http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/viewtopic_archives.php?TopicID=95853&page=0#768784). RRS is not compatible with some plates (that's Arca 'standard' for you :rolleyes:)
I'm thinking about this one (http://www.novoflex.de/english/html/fr_eha5.htm) now...

JohnJ80
25th of May 2007 (Fri), 09:19
Thanks for that - I like the way that looks and I like the idea of the release lock on the lever.

What is the wrench for - to tighten the bolt?

J

JohnJ80
25th of May 2007 (Fri), 09:30
I've read a few things about the Arca QR clamp that put me off a bit (about the adjustment of the QR). What's your opinion on that?

One (http://www.liaoyusheng.com/arca/), two (http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/viewtopic_archives.php?TopicID=95853&page=0#768784). RRS is not compatible with some plates (that's Arca 'standard' for you :rolleyes:)
I'm thinking about this one (http://www.novoflex.de/english/html/fr_eha5.htm) now...

RRS is not compatible only with RRS plates. The caveat on their website says that the RRS Lever clamp is best used with Wimberly and RRS plates because those two mfgs control their width dimensions better (tighter). The knob screw type clamp has no such stipulation.

That said, I have the QR lever clamp on all my ballheads and also on my main monopod and have never had a problem - but I am using RRS plates too. I also have their knob clamp on one of my monopods and it works ok too, but I think the lever clamp is actually as secure and it is easier to tell that it is attached properly.

I like the idea of the lever lock - the adjustment idea is a sword that cuts both ways - you can adjust it but then it has the ability to possibly loosen up (which is one of the problems apparently). So....

Thanks for the links and the reviews - I guess staying with RRS is probably the best bet for a lever clamp - and I highly recommend it.

J.

Prydain
25th of May 2007 (Fri), 09:30
I've read a few things about the Arca QR clamp that put me off a bit (about the adjustment of the QR). What's your opinion on that?

One (http://www.liaoyusheng.com/arca/), two (http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/viewtopic_archives.php?TopicID=95853&page=0#768784). RRS is not compatible with some plates (that's Arca 'standard' for you :rolleyes:)
I'm thinking about this one (http://www.novoflex.de/english/html/fr_eha5.htm) now...

First of all I certainly don't think it has a plastic or flimsy feel. This all appears to be made out of metal. I also don't have any issues either with adjusting the little wheel nor have I seen any drift. It may be that things get better as it is used more. I do have to reach a bit sometimes to unlock the lever, depending on what body I have on the clamp. Again, I did no comparison with RSS, because the AS lever clamp was standard issue on the B23W. I have read that the RSS lever clamp is not adjustable. In the end, that may be best for someone using only Wimberley and RSS plates. I have all kinds of 'AS compatible' plates and have definitely gotten use out of the adjustable feature of the clamp. The first article especially you posted is very good at showing features.

Prydain
25th of May 2007 (Fri), 09:34
Rene, is the Nova??? clamp actuated by turning the rim of the mount? IF so it seems like it might be a bit difficult working with something so thin.

Prydain
25th of May 2007 (Fri), 09:36
What is the wrench for - to tighten the bolt?
J

Yes.

René Damkot
25th of May 2007 (Fri), 10:27
Rene, is the Nova??? clamp actuated by turning the rim of the mount? IF so it seems like it might be a bit difficult working with something so thin.

AFAIK, when you put a plate in, it snaps shut (kinda like a manfrotto RC2), and you tighten it by turning the ring... I think there is a little pin you can screw into the side of the rim if you need that, for extra leverage....

I thought about the RRS lever, but I'm looking for a monopod solution.
If I were to use a Manfrotto tilt head with that plate, I'ld have to use RRS plates. No problem, exept that I would like to mount the plate for my 80-200 sideways, so the orientation of the dovetails on the plate is the same as on a camera plate. I'ld need a non-RRS plate to do that (Novoflex makes square plates).
If I mount the lens plate the 'normal way', I'd have to turn the monopod a quarter, so the swivel head would do 'up-down' for the camera, and 'left-right' for the collared lens. Not what I'd want.
Reattaching the lever release between shots is not an option...

Unless someone has another bright idea?

JohnJ80
25th of May 2007 (Fri), 16:23
AFAIK, when you put a plate in, it snaps shut (kinda like a manfrotto RC2), and you tighten it by turning the ring... I think there is a little pin you can screw into the side of the rim if you need that, for extra leverage....

I thought about the RRS lever, but I'm looking for a monopod solution.
If I were to use a Manfrotto tilt head with that plate, I'ld have to use RRS plates. No problem, exept that I would like to mount the plate for my 80-200 sideways, so the orientation of the dovetails on the plate is the same as on a camera plate. I'ld need a non-RRS plate to do that (Novoflex makes square plates).
If I mount the lens plate the 'normal way', I'd have to turn the monopod a quarter, so the swivel head would do 'up-down' for the camera, and 'left-right' for the collared lens. Not what I'd want.
Reattaching the lever release between shots is not an option...

Unless someone has another bright idea?

Isn't this all fixed by having an L plate?

I use the RRS lever clamp on my monopod with the 3232 (one of my monopods) so that lens goes up and down. If I want to go portrait mode, then I flip in around using the L plate. The picture below are with the screw knob version on the 3232, but the idea is the same.

See:

http://www.pbase.com/johnj80/image/74139409.jpg

Prydain
25th of May 2007 (Fri), 16:37
Isn't this all fixed by having an L plate?

I use the RRS lever clamp on my monopod with the 3232 (one of my monopods) so that lens goes up and down. If I want to go portrait mode, then I flip in around using the L plate. The picture below are with the screw knob version on the 3232, but the idea is the same.

See:

http://www.pbase.com/johnj80/image/74139409.jpg

No, he's talking about the axis of the plate running down the lens, where the camera plate is parallel to film plane. So when he uses his lens ring tripod mount the tilt is side to side. That's why he's looking at the Nova???? If it pans and then tilts in one direction, that would be best for him.

René Damkot
25th of May 2007 (Fri), 16:56
Yes, I am referring to the axis of the plate running down the lens, where the camera plate is parallel to film plane. I'ld like both axis'es to run the same way.

To clarify a bit further: If I could use the Novoflex plates in the RRS lever release clamp, I'd get the RRS. However, an email from RRS said that the Novoflex plates will only be compatible with the 'screw knob style' QR...
Getting an L-plate goes without saying. However, I am thinking about getting a Mk3 at the end of the year (funds allowing), and RRS couldn't yet tell me if the Lplate for a 1DMk2 will fit the Mk3. Otherwise I would have bought an Lplate a few months back. (There was one for sale on POTN for a reasonable price)

So I either have to find a plate for the tripod ring that will fit the RRS clamp, or use a non-RRS clamp. The Novoflex Q=Base looks okay (But I'll check it in a store before buying. That will take a few months I think, but I'll post the results afterward). I've looked at the (adjustable) Lever release clamp by Arca, but I'ld have to try that in person as well...
Changing lenses should not take longer because I need to fiddle with my QR...
I would prefer something like the Lever release. If that's not possibe, and the Q=base doesn't work satisfactory, then I'll just get a screw knob type clamp...

JohnJ80
25th of May 2007 (Fri), 16:58
Cool about the Mk3 - I'm thinking of one too.....

J

René Damkot
25th of May 2007 (Fri), 17:05
Would be cool if funds allow :lol:

Prydain
25th of May 2007 (Fri), 17:28
Rene,

A bit more complicating (and expensive) but you could add one of these to the top of a Manfrotto tilt head and then the RRS lever clamp to the top of it. I think that meets your requirements. :->

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/342311-REG/Arca_Swiss_802109_TopPan_2nd_Panning_Base.html

René Damkot
25th of May 2007 (Fri), 18:06
Yeah, sure. But that would mean an additional $170, and another knob to fiddle with...
Also, I'd still have the QR facing a different direction depending on what lens I'm using. That's something I *definately* don't want...

Didn't mean to thread-jack by the way, sorry :o
If a mod would like to split this thread, feel free to do so...

MDJAK
25th of May 2007 (Fri), 21:39
That is a great write up, but I have to disagree with another poster that it's necessary to progress through cheapo pods to the best.

I visited B&H over and over again, mainly to check out the Gitzos. I focused on one and eventually bought it. It worked fine, but I decided to sell it when the 6x with the G lock came out. My new one is even better.

me

Prydain
25th of May 2007 (Fri), 22:15
That is a great write up, but I have to disagree with another poster that it's necessary to progress through cheapo pods to the best.

I visited B&H over and over again, mainly to check out the Gitzos. I focused on one and eventually bought it. It worked fine, but I decided to sell it when the 6x with the G lock came out. My new one is even better.

me

So you progressed through one to get to the one you have now. ;) Nobody said anything about buying cheapo here that I recall. Only that you buy quality appropriate to current and somewhat future needs and expect your needs to change as you mature as a photographer. There are lots of good tripods out there that aren't Gitzos (as just about every owner of a Manfrotto 3021 will tell you).:)

PacAce
25th of May 2007 (Fri), 23:03
AFAIK, when you put a plate in, it snaps shut (kinda like a manfrotto RC2), and you tighten it by turning the ring... I think there is a little pin you can screw into the side of the rim if you need that, for extra leverage....

I thought about the RRS lever, but I'm looking for a monopod solution.
If I were to use a Manfrotto tilt head with that plate, I'ld have to use RRS plates. No problem, exept that I would like to mount the plate for my 80-200 sideways, so the orientation of the dovetails on the plate is the same as on a camera plate. I'ld need a non-RRS plate to do that (Novoflex makes square plates).
If I mount the lens plate the 'normal way', I'd have to turn the monopod a quarter, so the swivel head would do 'up-down' for the camera, and 'left-right' for the collared lens. Not what I'd want.
Reattaching the lever release between shots is not an option...

Unless someone has another bright idea?
How about item B6 on this page? It's a bidirectional plate that looks like it should fit the tripod collars with the shorter base.

http://reallyrightstuff.com/listitems/page03.html

There are other bidirectional plates listed in the RRS website that you can do a search on (keyword "bidirectional").

René Damkot
26th of May 2007 (Sat), 07:38
Now thŕt's a bright idea!
Thanks! Looks like I'll be downloading the RRS catalog. Now at least I have the choice between the RRS lever lock and the Q=mount...

René Damkot
24th of November 2007 (Sat), 08:46
Update: Got myself a RRS L-plate of ebay (50 euros :D)
Ordered a Novoflex Q=Base and a Novoflex lens plate... I'll report back when I receive them...