Something else i threw together (fight for freedom)

[timmyquest]

I play paintball and am a member of some paintball message boards. Sadly they are filled with 15 year old morons, recent political debates with these...tykes, inspired me to create this

www.antiwall.com/freedom.wmv

Dont debate here, just watch the video, or dont...doesnt matter

[vvizard]

No lets never forget. I'm living far away from both USA and the "Axis-of-evil", but that afternoon (Norwegian time), when my dad called me from his work, and told me a plane had crashed into WTC, and that I should turn on the telly.. That's one day I for sure never will forget. I thought it was a little Cessna or something, and that it all was an accident, but when turning on the telly, I saw our reporter standing with the WTC in the background, and explaining that a large 747 had crashed into the tower, I understood quite well this was not an accident. And while she stood there and explained what happened over a live-link, the second plane comes in.. It creates a lot of emotions. Remember I imediatley thought this would mean war. And beeing 0.5 - 3 years away from military service, I understood right away that even though as distant the USA is to Norway, a potential war would give a good chance of getting me involved too because of our NATO-membership.

I hate beeing political in web-forums though, as I think we best keep friends if we stick to photography and leave the politics at our desks. But I just have to say I don't fancy Saddam, and I don't fancy Bush either.. "Some things" got to be done, but I'm not quite sure they're beeing done the right way. That's my small comment, and I will not go deeper into politics here.

[timmyquest]

and I will not go deeper into politics here.

lol, i'd rather we didnt...

[vvizard]

Politics can do so destructive things with relationships between else very equally people :-P Heck, my last girlfriend and I had some great fights over politics :lol:

[Wickedfn4u]

That is a great video, I think everyone should see that every day.

God bless the victims, the families and the freedom we all enjoy.

TC

[belmondo]

Timmy:
That's very poignant. Good job.

Vvizard:
I agree that the forum is probably a place in which we should avoid too much political discussion, especially relating to the events following the 9/11 attacks. We recognize that world opinion is not anywhere near unanimous in its support of the actions my country has taken in Afghanistan and Iraq. To the contrary, I don’t doubt that the last year’s events are giving the U.S. a very unflattering image in the world community at large.

I won’t comment one way or the other except to say that twelve months ago, the vast majority of the U.S. population supported the idea of the war in Afghanistan, and to a somewhat lesser degree, the overthrow of Saddam Hussein. We were still very much in the vengeance mode following the attacks on the World Trade Center, the USS Cole incident, and even the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut. This was a year ago ---before we learned that the WMD (weapons of mass destruction) were gone, before the prisoner abuse scandal, before the mutilation and beheading of American citizens, indiscriminate suicide bombings, the ongoing loss of life on both sides, and so on.

We all know the world can be better than it is; there just is no consensus on how to make that happen. There is one lesson that we can take from all this, though, and our European cousins will learn it eventually, and that is this: there are people in this world that hate us all, not for anything we’ve done or will ever do. They hate us because we are not their religion---nothing else. For that fact, and that fact alone, they would happily take our lives and the lives of everyone dear to us. Right now the USA is receiving the bulk of their attentions, mainly because we’ve put ourselves in the forefront of the battle against their radicalism. But Italy, Spain, the Philippines, and a few other countries have also been ‘given a taste’ of what awaits them if we Americans ever cave into popular opinion and decide to leave the area.

If warfare against such evil is wrong, I, along with a couple hundred million other Americans, would love to know what citizens of other nations propose to do as an acceptable alternative that guarantees freedom from terror for future generations without offending the sentiments of the anti-war crowd. To be sure, nothing would please us more than to see the rest of the world step up and take on this problem with us.

[SoCal69]

To be sure, nothing would please us more than to see the rest of the world step up and take on this problem with us.

Well said...

Nice job on the video TQ...

Now back to our regularly scheduled photography forum :)

[neil_r]

Is a Photograpy Forum really the right place for this type of post?

I think not, but of course all are entitled to their opinions.

N

[Andy_T]

Is a Photograpy Forum really the right place for this type of post?

I think not, but of course all are entitled to their opinions.

N

Well the video certainly contained a few good photographs, although of a very sad incident.

Best regards,
Andy

[belmondo]

Is a Photograpy Forum really the right place for this type of post?

I think not, but of course all are entitled to their opinions.

N

Neil:
The intent of this specific board is for anyone to post whatever topic they like whether it relates to photography or not. It used to be call 'The Word Is Free', and there were similar posts then, and very few members posted to it. Some months ago, Pekka changed it to 'General Chat', and the traffic has picked up considerably. Still, if somebody wants to make a political statement, post a recipe for Tollhouse Cookies, complain about gasoline prices, or discuss the relevance of "Brittany Spears, this is the place to do it.

[Andy_T]

Still, if somebody wants to make a political statement, post a recipe for Tollhouse Cookies, complain about gasoline prices, or discuss the relevance of "Brittany Spears, this is the place to do it.

Out of the options, I'd actually prefer the recipe.

All the recipes posted here are either based on Kraft Mac&Cheese or Top Ramen :cry:

Best regards,
Andy

[neil_r]

The intent of this specific board is for anyone to post whatever topic they like whether it relates to photography or not. It used to be call 'The Word Is Free', and there were similar posts then,

Tom,

A well made point.. Check out when I joined the board and you will see that I can well remember “The Word is Free” I also well remember how contentious some of the posts were.

I really feel that this photography forum, where possibly the only common interest we may all have is photography (and more specifically photography using Canon kit) is not the place for what is potentially a divisive thread.

I do not want to be labelled bleeding heart liberal here as I served in the British army as a professional soldier for many years and saw service in Oman, N Ireland and the Falklands, this means I was responsible for things that I am not proud of, as well a seeing several good friends and colleagues killed and wounded. So I do know of which I speak.

My concern with this type of thread is that some people tend to assume that all “right minded” people think the same as they do, and I am afraid to say, that they do not.

Nelson Mandela was sent to prison as a terrorist, now he is revered as possibly the worlds leading statesman. Of course I am not condoning what happened on 9/11, I condemn it, only I think that here is not the place to do that.

There are many other forums where this type of topic is fine (Timmyquest’s paintball message board perhaps) I just feel that I want to enjoy this forum, enjoy the photography and not have to read and then want to respond to issues that may well cause resentment and friction.

Now will someone please post the recipe for Tollhouse Cookies (or biscuits as we say here :)

N

[timmyquest]

Come on guys...i already said i didnt want any debates.

[Andy_T]

Come on guys...i already said i didnt want any debates.

Then why did you start the thread in the first place (Just asking :roll:)
You must have had something on your mind, right?

Mind you, I'm not condemning your post ... I just don't really get your 'I post something here, but please don't comment on it' attitude.

But I'm not trying to start a debate. Just running up the post count, again :wink: .

Best regards,
Andy

PS: The only controversial point I see is ... why do you need 1350 kb/second for still pictures?

[belmondo]

Neil:
I often recall my first exposure to 'Talk Is Free'. I remember being completely turned off with a lot of the foolishness that was being posted there, and I rarely went back to it until the format was changed a few months ago. Since then, we've been blessed by the general restraint of our members in how far afield they allow their topics to drift from photography. It has become one of my favorite boards.

I agree whole-heartedly with you that this is probably not the best place to vent our political passions; I normally wouldn't bring up such a topic myself, but TQ got the ball rolling, and I felt that a comment was appropriate. The pain of 9/11 is still with us here, and the cumulative effects of everything that’s happened since are now taking an even greater toll on the American psyche. Actually I wrote my reply in the morning but didn't post it then. We went out and ran some errands, did some shopping, went to dinner, and didn't get home until evening. After I saw some of the other responses in the thread, I didn’t feel it would be inappropriate to go ahead and post it. It’s not all that controversial I hope.

I also share your concerns that there are people who can’t handle differing opinions. I saw a remarkable exchange of posts just a couple days ago between two individuals who disagreed on nothing more controversial than the proper care and feeding of a DSLR sensor. It got borderline ugly.

I suppose if I had my ‘druthers’, I’d discourage all future discussions of politics, race, religion, or any other topic capable of inciting passions of the participants. On the other hand, the General Chat board is advertised as an ‘anything goes’ kind of place, so the best way to deal with troublesome threads is not to respond to them at all, thus discouraging others from starting similar discussions.

Tom

[neil_r]

so the best way to deal with troublesome threads is not to respond to them at all, thus discouraging others from starting similar discussions

Touché :) :) :)

You know I love ya really x

N

[belmondo]

Touché :) :) :)

You know I love ya really x

N


Aw, shucks. :oops: :oops: :wink:

[timmyquest]

Come on guys...i already said i didnt want any debates.

Then why did you start the thread in the first place (Just asking :roll:)
You must have had something on your mind, right?

Mind you, I'm not condemning your post ... I just don't really get your 'I post something here, but please don't comment on it' attitude.

But I'm not trying to start a debate. Just running up the post count, again :wink: .

Best regards,
Andy

PS: The only controversial point I see is ... why do you need 1350 kb/second for still pictures?

Because i think we are all artists here and that was an artistic video...the topic at hand just happened to be controversial.

[Laziferous]

...so the best way to deal with troublesome threads is not to respond to them at all, thus discouraging others from starting similar discussions.

I couldn't agree more.

Which is why I've chosen not to reply until now, even though I am VERY passionate about the subject. Also why this reply has nothing to do with the subject itself, only the way it's dealt with.

[belmondo]

I've got a solution:
Your production skills are quite good. You just have to pick topics that aren't contoversial. How about gay marriage, abortion, or capital punishment? :lol: :wink:

[marie]

[quote=timmyquest]Come on guys...i already said i didnt want any debates.

Then why did you start the thread in the first place (Just asking :roll:)
You must have had something on your mind, right?

Mind you, I'm not condemning your post ... I just don't really get your 'I post something here, but please don't comment on it' attitude.



Best regards,
Andy


totally agree

[marie]

Is a Photograpy Forum really the right place for this type of post?

I think not, but of course all are entitled to their opinions.

N



soon as I saw Neil's first reply here (quote above) I knew he had a lot to say, as we all do regards our particular thoughts on this and any serious subject
in this one it's best left , especially as the wounds are still open

[marie]

The intent of this specific board is for anyone to post whatever topic they like whether it relates to photography or not. It used to be call 'The Word Is Free', and there were similar posts then,

Tom,

A well made point.. Check out when I joined the board and you will see that I can well remember “The Word is Free” I also well remember how contentious some of the posts were.

I really feel that this photography forum, where possibly the only common interest we may all have is photography (and more specifically photography using Canon kit) is not the place for what is potentially a divisive thread.

I do not want to be labelled bleeding heart liberal here as I served in the British army as a professional soldier for many years and saw service in Oman, N Ireland and the Falklands, this means I was responsible for things that I am not proud of, as well a seeing several good friends and colleagues killed and wounded. So I do know of which I speak.

My concern with this type of thread is that some people tend to assume that all “right minded” people think the same as they do, and I am afraid to say, that they do not.

Nelson Mandela was sent to prison as a terrorist, now he is revered as possibly the worlds leading statesman. Of course I am condoning what happened on 9/11, I condemn it, only I think that here is not the place to do that.

There are many other forums where this type of topic is fine (Timmyquest’s paintball message board perhaps) I just feel that I want to enjoy this forum, enjoy the photography and not have to read and then want to respond to issues that may well cause resentment and friction.

Now will someone please post the recipe for Tollhouse Cookies (or biscuits as we say here :)

N



I knew you had a strong opinion and wanted to voice some things and I am glad that you did also Neil

the balance is sorted somewhat ...
(I think)

:? 8)

[timmyquest]

I view the video as a form of art...we are all artists, that is why i posted it.

If i was looking for a political debate this is the last place i'd go...afterall, i have plenty of forums full of people i dont like.

[belmondo]

I view the video as a form of art...we are all artists, that is why i posted it.

Art appreciation is purely subjective and very much at the mercy of its audience. Not everyone looks at it the same.

For example, take a painting of The Last Supper. Some people look at it and experience an epiphany. Others look at it and admire the artistry. Yet others look at in and think of food.

You can’t please everybody, and you can’t expect everyone to understand your art or react to it purely for the effort it represents.

I still think you did a good job with it, though.

Tom

[Tom W]

Come on guys...i already said i didnt want any debates.

Then why did you start the thread in the first place (Just asking :roll:)
You must have had something on your mind, right?

Mind you, I'm not condemning your post ... I just don't really get your 'I post something here, but please don't comment on it' attitude.

But I'm not trying to start a debate. Just running up the post count, again :wink: .

Best regards,
Andy

PS: The only controversial point I see is ... why do you need 1350 kb/second for still pictures?

Because i think we are all artists here and that was an artistic video...the topic at hand just happened to be controversial.

But that's what its about, man. The debate is healthy. It isn't a debate about you or the presentation (which was quite excellent and touching, BTW). Its a subject that touches deeply into people in various ways. It brings us here to talk, sometimes argue, but when we all leave the forum tonight, we will all have a better understanding of how the entire situation is viewed by others and we will all know that others have seen our views.

I'll say it again: Debate is healthy. And you sparked it. You did well. You can expect a multitude of hits on the website as others learn about the fine presentation.

I remember that day - I was at work. We put the monitors on CNN, FOX, and any other news feed we could get. I remember the absolute shock I felt at seeing the planes hit the buildings, the people jumping, and many folks in the middle east laughing at that spectacle (they won't show that ever again, but I saw it on CNN). I remember it like it was yesterday.

[timmyquest]

Ack, dont remind me...to date 292 people have downloaded the video.

I am sure to be over my 5 gig limit this month :?

[marie]

Tom quote_________________
There is one lesson that we can take from all this, though, and our European cousins will learn it eventually, and that is this: there are people in this world that hate us all, not for anything we’ve done or will ever do. [/quote]
______



the european cousins have seen more wars and hatred which some people in the states never even heard of Tom

regards the Sept 11th tragedy.
it hit each and everyone of us all equally . you are not exempt .
it touched each and every one of us.

the video here could stir hatred. it is not peaceful
hatred is in the showing of those big pictures of saddam etc etc etc on that site
if we have to make ourselves famous on the backs of emotional expressions like this then it's a sad story
and that video makes sad looking at.

it broke down half way because it said it was having network problems so I was spared somewhat.
especially putting music to it
trying to really make feelings (wrong ones I'm afraid ) stir

for the record, to all the Americans who think we don't care just because we express an opinion
which talks about something else
...... ( like the wars etc all over ...all the time... with such terrible suffering and is happening every single day )....

Sept 11th shocked so deeply

we all remember exactly where exactly we were that day


I took all those pictures at the time and have them .
I don't need reminding of things which happened
I know it happened

I suffered for all who suffered
but I don't want it here in my face on a photography forum.
where I forget everything else

it turns my stomach to have to discuss this particular subject
but I have to state my case and exactly like Neil said and I quote =
"I just feel that I want to enjoy this forum, enjoy the photography and not have to read

and then want to respond to issues that may well cause resentment and friction. "
unquote


it was the only place I completely forget all the troubles in the world and around me

this subject does not make good reading or ' looking'
a lot of words will never solve it
it only causes friction
it's too sensitive a subject

it really made me sick
sick because I can't answer how I would like to
sick because I will be misunderstood no matter what is said

sick because I enjoy photography
sick because our country was at war for years (Neil will know of this )

and the relief of the now (delicate) 'peace' time ????

bombs bullets killings were all happening to our people over years in this country
did you know all about it ???
besides seeing the odd bomb blast on tv
did everyone know the suffering of the people, especially in the North of our country , at the time.
they not being able to do anything normal ???

I am not comparing it to sept 11 th

we all suffered so much and still are........... over what happened on sept 11th
it was unbelievable
just unbelievable

every single life matters

over here (why I did'nt want to put the name of my place on the avator thing .... it was mentioned why everyone did'nt )
I hate flag waving anyway and never like to think one country or person is better then another
over here I was disgusted at the killings in our country
the bombings and the lack of respect for human life especially in the North
and it was supposed to be done in the name of us who are living in the Republic

for god's sake !
no words to express how helpless a feeling that is


..............................evil will always be around us

it is not a special hit for America, don't take it so personal .
it was a hit against mankind

we are all suffering with wars all around us
there is evil in the world.
and it will always be around the next corner
nothing only doing good will help try and stop it .
it won't be beaten by the bomb and the bullet or by bully tactics

we must all fight for justice for everyone.............
if we can at all.

now I will get labelled as a goody goody who thinks all can be solved by the 'flower people attitude' ..peace smoke pot etc ....
well no, I am not like that
I am not stupid.
the means to stopping all this hatred is difficult
but we can start in our own little corner
.

it only spreads more and more and more if things like that video are shown
as if we were any better then anyone ?
seems to say ' we will hound you out, we will get you, look, we are perfect '


right, I know we don't kill or think the same way as such people who caused the atrocities which happened
but by inciting hatred we are guilty in other ways also
by even 'thinking' of revenge we are equally as guilty ...
everytime we do something hurtful even in a small way to someone else we are guilty
maybe in a small way but it ripples out and out and out , spreading in ways to all our fellow man.


so stop the feeling you were picked out for this horrible monstrosity
it was horrific
we all will always remember

none of us feel it was justified. not in any shape or form

none of us
how could we

if you even think that we think it was justified then there really is a big big problem in our communications with each other
and I am very sad about that, if so

how on earth could we forget what happened.
it may seem to touch you more because it became your issue in your country
but we felt it the very very same .
we were crying in front of the tv watching it ..... right as it happened .
remember it was approx 2pm in the afternoon here and we were all wide awake as we are five hours ahead of New York

a feeling so helpless, so ...........awfully helpless .

horrified

how on earth could we have been otherwise but feeling like you all did.
remember we are all human beings
before we are Americans, English, Swedish, French, German.. or whatever, we are all human beings

just humble human beings
and we are all heading the same way

the difference between here and there is we see all the wars going on all the time on tv over in these parts
(well spread out further afield)

but in the States barely any mention of what happening (all over) is on the tv
same in Russia and in Australia.
all big countries
I watched tv news in all these places when I was there and could hardly believe my eyes at how little was shown of what was happening all over especially in a time of crisis in other parts.
like as though an attitude ' we're all right jack and we're busy ' .............


let's move forward in peace and justice in some way.
by showing this video it could cause or stir young growing hearts to feel hatred
that won't solve anything.

we all know what happened.

showing the pictures of the other ' tyrants' is maybe causing anger
and to what purpose ?

it causes another type of tyrant to be born

what to do ? what's to be done ???

go around all day feeling bitter and angry and hatred for these people ????

is that how we all want to live ?
will it solve anything just feeling like that ?

it will only go out on our friends and neighbours and those around us.
all the pent up emotions of hate

we can cope better with these things if we put them in their right place in our minds

we need to do our bit in whatever place we are in today and that's the important thing .
put whole hearts into whatever we are doing right now
we can't if all our energy is going into hatred for what happened

nothing gets solved that way

and things which really matter , right now, get neglected


spead the goodness
thinking of how these people are won't help
we know how they think and how they act
words are just words in talking about them.
we all know about the evil men and what can happen now



goodwill alone will spread out
and who knows, it might even reach into the places and hearts which caused so much suffering..............

[belmondo]

Marie:
How can I respond?
How can I not respond?

My first thought is to summarize the points where we agree, followed by salient, compelling arguments advancing arguments favoring my own case where we don’t.

The only problem is, I have no idea what those points could possibly be, pro or con.

Let me take one more shot at re-stating my position with respect to my earlier post.

1. Timmyquest was fully within his rights to post his 9/11 tribute and he did it on the correct board for non-photo related posts.
2. I understand the depth of his feelings. Most Americans share his sentiments. (although fewer and fewer are supporting the current military action).
3. When I mentioned 'European cousins', I was not referring to the British. America could not ask for a better friend in the ongoing struggle. I was referring instead to certain other nations who have been 'less than helpful' since 9/11 and apparently had vested interests in maintaing the status quo, especially in Iraq.
3. I wish the whole thing had never come up, but feel the need to defend TQ's right to post his 'art'.
4. Unless and until Pekka determines that political threads are off limits, and as long as the resulting discussions are conducted on a civil basis, who is injured? We may choose to participate or not.

I would prefer to think that a policy change is not necessary in the forum. Instead, we can do just as well with some self-restraint combined with the knowledge that you don't have to look at any pictures or read any thread that offends your sensibilities.

[Note: I just deleted a good portion of this post. It dawned on me that I was trying much too hard to sound reasonable and likeable. I'm sure there are those among us who will happily argue that I am neither --- I don’t know. All I can say for certain is that I am just like you in that when I log onto the Forum, I don’t particularly want to see/read/hear about wars and terrorism. We get enough of that on the 24-hour news channel. This is where we come to hang out with our friends and talk about photography. ‘Nuff said.]

[Lamplight]

Unfortunately, I will have of wait until I get home to view Timmy's work, but I definitely plan to watch it later. :) I also frequent another message board (which has over 40,000 members), and there is also a general discussion forum there. As one might imagine, there are dozens of politically based threads every day, so I am used to seeing them. On this board, however, it is a very rare thing to see a political discussion. The first thing I notice in this thread (so far) is that it has remained extremely civil. The other board I frequent would have erupted into a pathetic frenzy of name-calling and hurt feelings! In fact, over there it has gotten so bad that political threads have been all but banned, and one of the members has even developed a site just for political bickering just so the administrators won't have to deal with it! :lol: And let's not even begin to discuss religion... :D

[alsmith]

...so the best way to deal with troublesome threads is not to respond to them at all, thus discouraging others from starting similar discussions.


I couldn't agree more.

Which is why I've chosen not to reply until now, even though I am VERY passionate about the subject. Also why this reply has nothing to do with the subject itself, only the way it's dealt with.


I'm backin up Laz on this one..