HELP???? Brass Band Concert Photos

[euphony]

Hi,
I wonder can someone please give me a pointer or 2 on taking photos at a concert this weekend.
I have just bought a 400D kit with the 18-55 lens, I also bought a Canon EF28-135mm F3.5-5.6 IS USM lens and a Sigma 70-300mm F4-5.6 APO DG Macro lens. I have a tripod.
I've bought a Speedlite 580EX which I will not be allowed to use at the concert as NO Flash Photgraphy allowed.
The venue will be dark other than the stage lighting and I will be 20 metres (in darkness)from the stage looking down from upper tier.
I have tried similar last week and got just blurry images (But I had no tripod at that time).
Please any tips on lens choice and camera setup would be greatly appreciated, I'm aware you are all probably bored to death answering dumb questions from dumber rookies, but this one is important on apersonal level.
Many thanks,:o

[johnstoy]

Hi euphony... Welcome to POTN...

I have the kit lens and the Canon EF28-135mm F3.5-5.6 IS USM...
For all practical purposes, these lenses are borderline/too slow for no flash, low light concert venues...

I would take the 28-135 along and use it with Image Stabilizer and use high ISO 1000, try some with 1250 and even ISO 1600...

Take a lot of photos, use up all of your memory... Noise, you can deal with later, in post processing...

Frankly, you would be best off, renting or buying any one of these longer primes... The Canon 85mm f1.8, the 100mm f2.0 or even the 135mm f2.0L... or rent the Canon 70-200 f 2.8L IS zoom...

60' feet is a long shot for any lens... You'll need to try out your Sigma 70 - 300 for distance requirements at 135mm... Than try out the 28-135 with IS at 135mm, to see what shutter speed's you'll get at ISO 1000 and up.... The Sigma is not fast enough, but it will tell you what distances you will need to cover from 20 meters... neither is the kit and only the Image Stabilizer of the 28-135 could possibly get you by... Test these two lenses, compare the results at 135mm... With a mono pod you could get stage shots, but at slow shutter speeds, you are more apt to get motion blur...

Don't forget, you can't use the IS with the mono pod or tripod with the 28-135... The Image Stabilizer on it, is not usable on mono or tri pods...

[euphony]

Hi John,
Many thanks for the insight.
I can probably stretch to buying either the 85mm f1.8 or the 100mm f2.0 but the others are out of my range, which would be best of these 2.
Many thanks.

[Curtis N]

The 28-135, with IS, and ISO 1600 might work ok as long as the subject aren't moving much. Shutter speed will probably be marginal and shots of the conductor will likely yield blurry arms. I wouldn't bother with the tripod.

I would definitely start out at ISO1600 and leave it there. With the lens wide-open in Av mode, this will give you the fastest shutter speed possible.

[johnstoy]

Hi John,
Many thanks for the insight.
I can probably stretch to buying either the 85mm f1.8 or the 100mm f2.0 but the others are out of my range, which would be best of these 2.
Many thanks.


Depending on where you will be located most of the time, while photographing shows should be the best guideline...

For up front, first row, or pit shooting, the 50mm f1.4 is great...a few feet further back, up to about 30 feet, the 85mm f1.8 is excellent... and the 100mm f2. will also be great from 10 to 35 feet back... This will allow you to get close ups of the performers... And if you need wider shots, you'll need to back up or walk back... They ( the 85mm and 100mm) offers a narrow field of view...

For wider shots up close, some of us use the Sigma 30mm f1.4... It's a popular lens but might need re-calibration by Sigma after you try it...

[euphony]

Hi Curtis,
Thanks for that.
In an ideal world what kit would I NEED to capture sharp, non blurry images in these conditions, without flash.
P.S. I love your performance gallery photos of Katrina concert, particularly the Cellist, Conductor and Choir photos.............now that's the kind of photos I WANT to take.

[René Damkot]

Agree on the "use ISO 1600 as minimum" bit.
You might want to use ISO 3200 (shoot Raw and underexpose one stop; correct in Raw conversion) if all else fails: Better a noisy, sharp image, then a noise free, but blurry one ;)

Depending on lighting, stage, metering mode and image in the viewfinder, the lightmeter might be fooled easily. (Overview of the stage = a lot of black background = overexposed band members).
So set your highlight warning on the display, and pay attention to the 'blinkies'.

If lighting is constant, you might want to consider 'M' mode (which will vary when zooming, since your lenses are variable aperture), otherwise dial in appropriate EC (which will vary depending on framed image, since the lightmeter might or might not be fooled)

20 meters is *far* off. You'ld need a long lens if you want anything other then overview shots.

If you have the room, are allowed to use it, and are restricted in movement anyway, bring the long lens and tripod.
Maybe you get lucky, and a band member will sit still enough for 1/30s at f/5.6 with your 300mm from tripod. You will need quite a bit of light tough: From the sound of it, there might be quite a bit of light (Big hall, brass band).

Some images (even blurry) from last time might help to get some more specific answers...

[Curtis N]

If you plan to do a lot of performance shooting, my personal preference is fast (f/2.8 ) zoom lenses. My wife and I use a Sigma 70-200 and a Tamron 28-75, and sometimes a Tamron 17-50 to catch the whole stage. Keep in mind, we have the luxury of ISO 3200 with the 20D and 30D.

Some people prefer fast primes like the 50mm f/1.4 or the 85mm f/1.8. I like the versatility of the zooms. To each his own, but I think f/2.8 will be fast enough for a brass band concert. Maybe not fast enough for a dance recital at ISO 1600. It's hard to give more specific advice, it depends how far away you are, and whether you want to catch the whole band or individual performers.

I will echo Rene's cautions about metering. Black jackets, white shirts and contrasty, uneven stage lighting (and it's always uneven) make for a metering nightmare. Chimp often, look carefully at your histogram and the "blinkies". Here's a thread (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=324146)that might help with that.

Regarding the Katrina Concert photos - Be aware that some of them were taken during a rehearsal when we could get pretty close. We were also able to get various angles during the concert by walking around the hall and sneaking in various doors of the church sanctuary, as well as the tech booth upstairs. If your band does any rehearsing in uniform, that's the time when you can get the best shots.

[euphony]

These are photos taken in similar but much lighter conditions, I'm on stage so photos are taken by audience member in auto mode no tripod.

1.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u270/xheuphony/CornetSection.jpg

2.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u270/xheuphony/IMG_0027.jpg

3.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u270/xheuphony/TromboneSection.jpg

[euphony]

This last one is more typical of the conditions but no tripod here either.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u270/xheuphony/IMG_0033.jpg

[johnstoy]

I'm sometimes known to crop heavily...

This pic is with the 85mm f1.8, ISO 1600 w 30D, at approx. 50 feet from the center of the stage... It is trimmed/cropped to enlarge the subject... The two ladies behind Terri Clark are approx. 65' away...
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l60/stoy17/TerriClarkShow/IMG_20070412_9999_291.jpg

From approx. 50 feet away at ISO 3200, heavy trim/crop
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l60/stoy17/BigShot/IMG_20070224_7065.jpg

From rear seats of the venue, approx. 70 feet away with the 85mm f1.8 slight trim/crop...1/200th w ISO 1600...
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l60/stoy17/BigShot/IMG_20070224_7083.jpg

[Curtis N]

Euphony,
The color in that last shot reminds me... the correct white balance is important. Do not rely on AWB under stage lighting. 1) Shoot RAW and adjust the color temp later, or 2) if shooting JPEG, set your WB to tungsten, or better yet 3) do a custom white balance if you have a chance.

[René Damkot]

Since the last shot is similair to the conditions you are going to face, I'll comment on that:

Exif says 1s; f/4; ISO 400.
If my exif reader is correct, you were at about 10m using about 50mm.
At twice the distance, a 100mm would give about the same framing.

It looks a bit overexposed. If you shoot Raw, 1/8s (maybe 1/15s); f/4 ISO 1600 should be about right. Too slow to hand hold... :(

An f/2.8 lens would be a stop faster, so still too slow.
Looks like you're in for a tough job ;)

A 100 f/2 wide open would have given a shutterspeed of 1/60s max. Slow, but just about doable if you mind your technique and get a bit lucky.

Conditions in the first shoot were about 4 stop better, so at ISO 1600 you should be able to manage that...

If lighting *really* is that bad, you'll have to use either a fast lens and be carefull, or use a slower lens on tripod and hope that the performers move sloooowwwly....

[euphony]

Some results from my first band contest, they're far better than I'd hoped and thanks to everyone for their help, particularly Curtis N.
Any feedback on these would be appreciated as I KNOW they can be miles better.
I had real difficulty with the 1st bands white shirts.???
These are all taken from the same position - 15m back in near darkness. no flash allowed.
1.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u270/xheuphony/WLC%202007/bones.jpg

2.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u270/xheuphony/WLC%202007/Craig.jpg

3.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u270/xheuphony/WLC%202007/Kingdom.jpg

[Curtis N]

Man, that lighting looks pretty brutal. The trombonists are going to be the most animated musicians so a little motion blur from them is inevitable.

The last shot is overexposed as I'm sure you realize. It's so hard to meter a shot like that, you have to chimp, look carefully at the histogram and "blinkies" on the LCD, and adjust accordingly.

[euphony]

Hi Curtis,
What is Chimp please?
Is there anyway to know when looking through the viewfinder if it will be over exposed? I did use the dial to give "correct" exposure so any other way?


P.S. Curtis this was with the EF28-135 lens with the setup you recommended so thanks for that, I got my Sigma 70-200 delivered today (it's HUGE!!)so will be able to try it at the next heats on Sunday.

[Curtis N]

What is Chimp please?
Is there anyway to know when looking through the viewfinder if it will be over exposed? I did use the dial to give "correct" exposure so any other way?Sorry.

"Chimp" originally referred to looking at your LCD on the camera and then saying, "Ooo, ooo, aah, aah" like a chimpanzee when you got a good shot. It has evolved as slang for reviewing your shots on the LCD, with or without sound effects.

When you review your shots with the info screen (the one with the histogram next to the image), the overexposed highlights will blink on the image. This is your que to reduce exposure.

With all that black in the image, you need a lot of negative exposure compensation to avoid overexposing the white areas. Look at the images in this thread (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=324146). Notice that the first two are overexposed despite -1EC (exposure bias), because of the predominance of black in the image.

This is an extremely difficult situation to get right. Last weekend I shot a dance recital with a black background and dancers in black costumes. Even with exposure compensation, most images needed some adjustment with the RAW converter. It's always humbling to shoot in that kind of environment.