How to react with a problem camera

[robertwgross]

Suppose you order a new digital SLR camera. Let's just take a Canon 10D as an example, since it is current. The package is opened and you take out the pieces, the body, the lens, the manual, the battery, etc.

First, you probably sit down in a good chair and read the manual, cover to cover. Somewhere in the beginning of that, you will get the battery plugged into the charger and let it go while you read the rest of the manual.

Sometime that first day, you will be ready to take some test shots. Once done, you will have to fool around with new software to get that all going on the computer. You transfer image files to the computer, and after a while you can see your tests on the screen.

Suppose you see (what you think is) a generalized focus problem. You go re-read the parts of the manual that seem to apply, just to make sure that you didn't skip something important about focus. Let's further the example by searching on the web and finding some focus test procedures. If you go through those fully, either you will find a problem or else you won't. If you do find a problem, then do you immediately jump to the conclusion that it is a defective camera? (I sure as hell don't.)

There are at least three or four different technical malfunctions of the whole system that could account for that. There are about a dozen user errors that could account for that, including misunderstanding something stated in somebody's focus test procedure. A new camera can be mishandled getting from the factory to the user. A few dangerous camera vendors will re-pack a previously sold problem camera to make it look like it is brand new. There's all kinds of *stuff* out there.

If the problem camera had one of the early serial numbers from the first couple of months of production, then that leads us to one clue. But then you would send that to Canon for adjustment as a warranty repair, wouldn't you?

Instead, it seems like some folks just fire a few shots across the bow and then leave. They don't offer any proof to substantiate their claims. They don't offer any details.

Oh, well. That just doesn't seem productive to me.

---Bob Gross---

[EXA1a]

Do I read between the lines that there might be/not be something wrong with your new 1DMKII??

--Jens--

[Cadwell]

:lol: :lol: I'm with Bob on this one!

[CoolToolGuy]

I guess I qualify as a regular here, and I have seen many discussions turn sour for many different reasons. Some of them I may have had a hand in turning, and some of them may have turned on me. There was one recently where I think the person responding was reacting to a previous discussion that still had some emotion left in it. The person asking the question took the response in a manner that was unfortunate, and things went downhill from there. I watched from the sidelines because I had nothing to add to the discussion (I don't own the camera in question), but as an observer I think the original requestor (newbie?) was expecting all of the forum members to get him some slippers, a cup of warm tea, and the latest newspaper while we ran off and fixed his problem. I know it doesn't work that way, but maybe newbies have a different perspective coming in. We are all (scratch that, I'll speak for myself) just common folks that have a common passion - not gods from above who can evaluate the appropriate way to respond to every question.
It is unfortunate that this member decided to bail after such a short time, but if one response to one post sets you off to "see ya" land, well maybe you're better off in "see ya" land than here.

[Tom W]

No, Bob's alluding to a situation with which he doesn't share a problem, I think.

On the one side of the coin, we've got the occasional problem camera out there for whatever reason. And those problems need to be fixed, returned, or dealt with as they arise.

On the other side, we've got a big pile of internet hysteria about focus problems and such. The hysteria has superceded the legit problems to such an extent that the first reaction to someone claiming focus problems is similar to the reaction given in the fable, "the Boy that cried 'Wolf'". This, of course, masks the legit issue and creates an antagonistic situation for the rare individual with the real issue.

IMHO!

[dn7elson]

I would use it. Check the results. Go back to the manual - yes, I am one of those crazy fools that reads most of it, skimming the rest; and then try again.

If convinced that it was a product fault, and if new within a few days, I would first contact the selling vendor and see if I could exchange it. Sometimes they may, other times they may not.

Failing that, I would contact the manufacturer, if they provide a support phone number or email address.

If that is unsuccessful, I then need to decise whether to attempt to return the item for a refund, knowing that sometimes there will be a restocking fee; or send it in for warranty repairs.

What happens next depends upon the specifics of the situation.

Bottom line is that well designed and manufactured products still have a small percentage that will have problems, whether manufacturing defects or after manufacture handling caused....not that the UPS man has ever dropped (or even backed over) a package :lol: I wish it weren't so, but that doesn't change things.

Therefore, another reason to purchase from a respected manufacturer through a trusted vendor.

[robertwgross]

Do I read between the lines that there might be/not be something wrong with your new 1DMKII??

--Jens--

I haven't the foggiest idea what you refer to.

I haven't referred to a 1DMKII, nor do I own one.

Please clarify.

---Bob Gross---

[CoolToolGuy]

For the record, I am not referring to Bob in any of my previous post - I'm really hijacking his thread to respond to what happened in another. I think most will realize that, but I thought I should clarify.

Have Fun

[robertwgross]

On the other side, we've got a big pile of internet hysteria about focus problems and such.

Exactly.

Some users are able to sort out the facts, run some tests, sort some more, and then come up with a good idea of what is going on, whether that is good or bad. Some other users read a couple of items on the web (and we all know that the web is 100% reliable [not]), and then they jump to conclusions, fire shots across the bow, and maybe even go find a lawyer.

The first time that I thought I had a front focus problem, I ran some quick tests and found that the only focus problem was my own user-impatience. I got over that in a hurry.

---Bob Gross---

[SoCal69]

I do agree with Bob and many of the others here that some new members of the forum come here looking for a quick fix to a problem which may or may not exist, without putting any significant effort into researching the facts or issues. It seems that in that case, however, the proper thing to do would be to politely point out the steps he or she might want to take and perhaps provide some brief information or links which might be helpful. The majority of the time, this is what I have seen here.

There are many reasons which caused me to become a member of this forum and which make me want to continue to come here. Of course, photography is one, but more importantly, it is the comaraderie of the members here and the selfless efforts they take to build a sense of community and help one another, including those less knowledgeable (I place myself in this category). Of course there is the occasional heated disagreement here or there, but those are usually few and far between. In the end, everyone seems to be respectful of each other, regardless of knowledge, skill or ability.

I do believe that this forum will continue to be a quality photography resource, attract new members and grow successfully if we continue in that vein without jumping on someone because they jumped to conclusions and failed to take the time to undertake their own investigation. Just point out the error of their ways politely.

Just my two cents.

[G3]

Bob has hit on a point here. It's not just the focus issue (although that's a frequent one), but it's many other issues too. Some want us to tell them how to be overnight successes in product photography/wedding photography/portraiture. Some have problems (or perceived problems) with their camera, still other want us to tell them what lenses to buy. Some have actually done a pretty good job of researching their question, others have done nothing on their own (not even a search of these forums).

I think that's human nature, at least in many people. If they have a problem, they want to offload it to someone else to handle for them. Some just want sympathy, or at least empathy. Some get ticked off right off the bat and bail when someone tells them to do some looking for themselves. Others remain and become a permanent part of our little party. It's all good. Even the ones that get ticked and bail take something with them. It's a good bet that before they start asking other people to solve their problems from now on, they'll do a little research first.

I've had a couple get ticked at me over the "instant Wedding Photographer" syndrome. You know what? That's OK. I'll bet that no matter what they said on here while they were ticked at me, it made them think a little. That's all I was trying to accomplish. I've seen the same thing occur with Bob and some others on here with newbies. No matter how unpleasant the conversation turns, I doubt if it was ever a total loss. They come on here and they ask experts for expert opinions. If they can't handle the answers, they shouldn't ask the questions. I've never seen one of them told anything by anyone on here that they shouldn't have already thought of themselves.

Here's the bottom line. People come here and they think that the folks on here have all of the answers. You know what? We do. Between all of the different Photographers on this forum in all of the different disciplines of the art, we have the answers. And we provide them. Sometimes that answer isn't what the person wanted to hear, but it's probably what they needed to hear.

[Belmondo]

Give them a fish and they'll eat for a day.
Teach them to fish and they'll eat for the rest of their lives.

Give them a quick answer to a question, they're good for the moment.
Teach them how to find the answers on their own, and they're good forever.

Dumb analogy, I know, but I've gone through that learning curve myself. I still don't know a lot, but I'm a little better equipped to solve my own problems than I was a few months ago.

[Longwatcher]

While not a Canon camera, the story applies.
Back when a digital camera came out that met my initial needs, I went and found the Kodak DC4800. After charging the battery and reading the manual I took some pictures, loaded them onto the computer and wondered why my pictures were blurry. So I reread the manual check the settings and shoot again. Same results. Then I decide to try something I really did not think I should have had to do. I upped the sharpen dial from the default of Normal to Sharper. Massively huge difference. Very sharp pictures of very good quality at the time (at least for my needs).
At the time, I thought that whoever set the default settings at Kodak were idiots. While I still think that, I have learned that they were thinking about photographers when they set the defaults and not consumers. They had stupidly assumed that consumers had nifty software to fix the images; As I said they were idiots.

What the above did do for me though, was when I bought my D60 I did not panic when I first saw soft pictures out of the camera, I did some research and found out it was supposed to be that way. So I got the equivelant to a darkroom and bought the full version of photoshop and have lived happily ever after (okay that was a little white lie, since I won't be happy until I can get my hands on a multi-terapixel camera and a 1mm to 6000mm zoom "L" lens in a 35mm body - not likely to happen in this universe)

So the moral of the story is don't panic, there may be a reason for something you can't see. Do you research first, try everything YOU can to fix the problem and if that still doesn't work, then call tech support. And then if that fails, then and only then can you complain.

Just my experience,

[cmM]

Give them a fish and they'll eat for a day.
Teach them to fish and they'll eat for the rest of their lives.

Give them a quick answer to a question, they're good for the moment.
Teach them how to find the answers on their own, and they're good forever.

Dumb analogy, I know, but I've gone through that learning curve myself. I still don't know a lot, but I'm a little better equipped to solve my own problems than I was a few months ago.
Dumb analogy? Not at all.
It's totally true. There are a lot of people that just join and ask questions before even opening their manual.
I've asked for that one fish before :oops:
Now I'm trying to learn how to fish

[Volatile]

I am relatively new to this forum, but I am a member of several web forums across several subjects. From one new guy to all the old guys: please remember that the troublesome new members are vastly outnumbered by "well-behaved" new members.

As of this posting, there are 17,200 members of this forum, a community built in just 14 months time. That's a pretty amazing accomplishment, and doesn't take into account "readers" who never register. It says a lot about Pekka's work, the time and consideration of you old guys, and probably the digital Rebel has a role in there somewhere.

I, myself, have learned virtually everything I know about photography from the people here and the links they've offered. Yes, my manual helped too, but it's not very good at explaining "why" something works the way it does. For that, I offer my sincerest thanks, and my promise that I will always be polite, civil, and thankful.

[2new]

"Give them a fish and they'll eat for a day.
Teach them to fish and they'll eat for the rest of their lives.

Perfect -

But it's all how you teach one to fish as to whether or not they will have the desire to learn for themselves.

Jumping down someone's throat, or belittling them only breeds hostility. Politely and friendly directing someone to the 'Search' feature and or a previous post will encourage constructive participation.

There is more internet BS floating around and rumors get perpetuated because 'someone read something somewhere'...

This forum and it's members have the opportunity to clarify much of those BS issues when a newbie asks a dumb question, and at one time or another we all just wanted to be handed a fish.

Thanks to all.

Michael

[robertwgross]

[rant on]
Once, in a different universe, I was trying to answer a customer technical support call to a product vendor, and the regular technical support guy was out to lunch. The customer caller wanted to know what the password was to log onto his system.

I politely told him that the password was in his product manual, page 12, about the second paragraph down from the top of the page.

Then he asked, "Well, what is it?"

I told him, "Page 12 of the manual, about the second paragraph down from the top."

By this time, the caller was pissed.

I asked him if he had the product manual, and he said he did.

(pause)

Then I asked him if there was anything else I could do for him that day.

By then he was really pissed and hung up.

About five minutes later, my boss came running over to my office and asked me if I knew what the standard password was.

I said, "Yes, it is in the manual on page 12, about the second paragraph down."

It turned out that the irate customer had hung up on me and then called back to find somebody else that would tell him the answer that he wanted to hear. Nobody would tell him directly, and he was getting pissed for nothing.

Here is the reason. If we told the password to any fool who called up and asked, then anybody could hack into a valid system with that password and cause disruption. If we told callers to look it up at a specific spot in the manual, that that would exclude outside hackers, because they would not have the manual.

My point is in agreement with a couple of the others on this thread. Tell them where to find the answer, or how to derive the answer on their own. But, if you just tell them the answer every time, they aren't going to remember it or record it. They will just keep calling back to ask the same question over and over.
[rant off]

---Bob Gross---

[arumdevil]

I do agree with Bob and many of the others here that some new members of the forum come here looking for a quick fix to a problem which may or may not exist, without putting any significant effort into researching the facts or issues. It seems that in that case, however, the proper thing to do would be to politely point out the steps he or she might want to take and perhaps provide some brief information or links which might be helpful. The majority of the time, this is what I have seen here.

I have to agree with that. When I learn something new I like to really know what I'm doing and why. It's not good enough or someone to just tell me "You do it like this". So either they say that and then I go try it and see how it all fits together, or they also tell me why it works like that and I go try it and see how it all fits together.

But I also think it's not always helpful to tell a newby to "Use the search function" or "go find out for youself". Of course it can lead to a better understanding of the subject but more often than not there's so much info out there that just finding what you're looking for can be hard enough (especially if you're new and you don't know all the lingo and you may not know what to even call what you are looking for in search engine terms). and of course once you find lots of info there is often a lot of contradiction going on and you can end up more confused than when you started.


............


I was going to come to a conclusion there but my mind's gone blank, and I need to get some sleep.


i'd just like to say that as a new member here I have fealt very welcom and found the members here helpful and generous with their time and knowledge, so thanks - i'm glad to be a member.

better get some kip now

regards,

arum

[CyberDyneSystems]

I like this thread,.. and I think this all needs to be discussed.

The Issues at hand are a number.. but in my opinion.. and in the general "mission" of this forum as a whole.. the question Bob asks, though relevant..

...should really have NOT been "How to react with a problem camera" for a new poster here... for they are "new" and thus are very likely not to understand this yet.

I agree with what Bob is saying.. I think it would be great if the manual was cracked and searches run BEFORE the post came up here...

But we as the educated comunity of THIS forum.. we are not going to be posting such a post.. or asking such a question ...

Rather we are going to be the ones responding..

Thus the question at hand is this;

How do WE react to a post concerning an alleged "problem Camera"

We can't alter what the first time user asks...

But we are all reasonable adults here and should be able to handle the sort of hysterical posts that come in when someone has what they perceive to be a dud camera... we've done it in fact hundreds of times! :) :)

Some people may need hand holding.. some may need to be walked through a situation.. and yes it may seem tedious. But we should not allways assume that the newcomer is "wrong" or has made an assumption in error. We need to take the time to go through the steps to resolve whether the issue is the Camera or the user.

My advice to anyone who has lost patience and does not wish to take the time to be generous and helpfull to a disgruntled newbie.. quite simple IGNORE THE POST

The dicotomy here is interesting as the last time "Moderation" was called for in the EOS forum with such an issue the tables were reversed. It was a member who had responded with patience and the generosity of his experience that was taken to task because his educated answer to a question was not appreciated.

When the tables are turned in such a case THEN it is the responsibility of the newcomer to have the patience and understanding.


But.. we can never expect the newcomer to ask a question exactly how we would like it to be asked. Life does not work that way.




Last point..

This forum is supposed to be the Mecca.. the point of light in the vast darkness of the internet for those seeking answers to Canon related problems... a haven if you will.

It is a VERY sad thing to see someone stumble upon our shores at the end of there quest for guidance only to be pushed back into the sea of hysteria so abruptly. :(

[robertwgross]

This forum is supposed to be the Mecca..
the point of light in the vast darkness of the internet
...
It is a VERY sad thing to see someone stumble upon our shores at the end of there quest for guidance only to be pushed back into the sea of hysteria so abruptly. :(

Damn. Are you running for Congress?

---Bob Gross---

[Sketcher]

This forum is supposed to be the Mecca.. the point of light in the vast darkness of the internet for those seeking answers to Canon related problems... a haven if you will.

It is a VERY sad thing to see someone stumble upon our shores at the end of there quest for guidance only to be pushed back into the sea of hysteria so abruptly. :(

It's Official: I'm selling WWCDSD bracelets after the show! :). Just kidding, I agree with the 'haven' and fishing ideologies. The significant number of people from various experience and locale who stop by and often stick around wouldn't be served well by a narrowly focused modus operandi be it with a kidd glove mentality or a poke_in_the_eye reference to RTFM. Sometimes a direct sink or swim response is warranted and other times a mentor/student response is appropriate. A soft answer to someone in need of a kick the pants does as much disservice as a harsh retort to an innocent request. Analogy upon analogy bears out that our response is important and should be offered with the same if not more care than with what we expect of the new people learning the ropes. An example of what we expect is who we should be, or something like that :).

Not all initial posts can be judged for integrity and worthwhile response; but most can. Without question an experienced person would think it a requirement of ownership that a person at least browse the owners manual or attempt to search forum topics for an answer; but the process of learning also includes learning to read when appropriate and ask when appropriate. Our response to that individual will enhance their learning experience adding to forum intellect or dissuade a person from being productive, potentially distracting others. There is always an exception to the rule... but they are just that - exceptions.

Man, now I'm daydreaming about going fishing...

Thanks TOM!

[RogerBayford]

Oh dear, what a mess! I am the original “Newbie”, as I was referred to, that evidently caused this entire ruckus. Not new to photography but new to forums.
Having contacted the seller of the camera, I was advised that this would have to be taken up with the manufacturer as it was not a definitive failure . I attempted to contact Canon email and got one reply with standard answers and asked if I wanted to elevate the problem to Tech service. My response was yes. Then I heard no more from Canon. I went on the net and found some articles that showed how do to a full focus test. Which, I did. Not once but 4 times with the results being the same each time. That was when I posted the initial request for help, thinking that if someone else had experienced the same problem I might be guided to the right person at Canon.

Any way, The latest on the 10 D………………. Yes, the local Canon dealer has confirmed that there is indeed a focus problem with my camera. The good news, it can be quickly remedied. The camera is on its way back to Canon right now.

What caused me to request the post to be closed was the almost universal assumption that I had not read and fully understood the manual. (I had read it three times, I do this with any new camera). "It had to be something the Newbie was doing wrong" thing that did get me down. There was also the assumption that I appeared to be a “Newbie” to photography and digital cameras. Again, wrong! I have been using them for about 5 years and have three.
Yes I am a "Newbie" to the 10D and spent a week getting to know the camera and all of the minor tweaks and adjustments. I do this for a very clear and simple reason. When I carry any camera I need to know that if the shot of a lifetime pops up in front of me, my fingers know exactly where to go to adjust the settings. and to be able to instantly tweak for the ultimate shot. Actually the 10D is easy to handle for the person used to the existing film Eos cameras of which I have three. The digital controls were easy to understand and master as the manual is concise and exceptionally well written.
My only regret over this whole incident is that I did not clearly state what I had already done and the assistance I was looking for. For that I do sincerely apologize.

I have read some of the new follow up posts and it continues on in the same vein, with one poster saying: “I wanted to kick of my shoes and let others do the work for me”, I had a good chuckle over that one! Come on guys lighten up a little, this is a fun hobby and occupation, lets keep it that way. A little patience and a helping hand go a long way. I have people come in to the studio and ask how to operate their digital cameras. Several have even had the gall to ask how they should set up at home to do the family portraits. Now bear in mind that portraiture is a good chunk of my studio's income. All the requests are met with a courteous response and if I have time I will even go over the basics of their camera with them. This has actually gained me some business in the long run, Do I tell them how to set up for portraits? Heck no! I usually refer them to the library so that they can read “how to” like I did many years ago.


Despite some of the responses I would like to thank those that did take the time to post helpful replies and I will continue to take a peek at this site to catch the latest tips etc.
But In all due respect, please guy’s, don’t jump to conclusions without asking a few more questions. Let’s all be honest, this wasn’t much of a welcome to a NEWBIE 10D owner was it? As I said I am new to the forum environment and I made some mistakes, but if another newbie pops in think about how your response is going to be viewed.

On a positive note, I cant wait to get my 10D back as I am still looking forward to taking my studio fully digital for the portraiture and industrial Macro work. I have stayed with film for this up until now. The 10D was finally affordable enough for me and the big plus was that I could use all my existing lenses and synch to my studio strobes.
So happy shooting to all and please……….lets leave an old dog lay.
Look forward to stopping in every so often to take a look. There does appear to be some definite advantages to being able to tap in to such a valuable resource.
My apologies for having not been clear and concise originally and for responding the way I did, but I saw no useful purpose in that thread continuing in the way it was heading.
Roger

[SoCal69]

Well, at least you came back. Let me be the first to say WELCOME and I hope you stop in often enough to be a regular contributor. Everyone here has different approaches, but to be fair, this is overall an excellent site and a wonderful resource. Welcome again.

Hopefully, you will have your 10D back soon and post some of your work for us to see.

[Belmondo]

Roger:
The original post in the thread didn't reference anyone in particular that I could identify. I thought the author's statement was really more general in nature and somewhat rhetorical. If you have reason to believe it was directed to you personally, I think that is unfortunate and I hope you are mistaken.

I also hope your camera is returned to you soon and operaties to your satisfaction. We'll be interested in hearing how this all turns out.

Good luck,

Tom

[Tom W]

Roger, glad to see that your camera is getting the attention that it deserves. And I'm glad to see that you made it back.

The focus issue is probably the most talked-about issue in all internet camera forums. Its also the most mis-understood issue of all. Frankly, there is a great deal of hysteria surrounding the issue, with a large number of people claiming trouble where there is none at all. I alluded to it earlier in this thread, but I'll repeat it - My guess is that 95 out of 100 people that are complaining about focus issues don't have a focus problem. Its a combination of many factors including internet hysteria, poorly performed focus tests, misunderstanding of depth-of-field, and unrealistic expectations brought on by the ability to look at things with 100% magnification (how many people have enlarged 35 mm prints beyond 8X10?).

So when you posted a focus problem, experience led many to believe that you fell into that large group of folks that "think" they have a problem but don't. But unfortunately, you instead fell into that smaller group that really _did_ have a problem. You've kind-of fallen into the the "boy that cried wolf" scenario. And that's unfortunate, given that the problem is, in your case, very real.

Every now and then, one leaves the factory a little out of adjustment, or UPS roughes it up a bit or something. Anyway, a bad one finds its way to the customer on occasion.

Anyway, you've just about made it through boot camp so you might as well stick around now. ;)

[defordphoto]

Welcome back Roger. You going to email me those photos? In spite of your initial (un)welcome here, this is a friendly group and we have lots of fun. Please fell free and hang out here...

[CyberDyneSystems]

I think Roger is probably correct in assuming that this thread is partly a result of the thread that was locked... it was a spark if you will

But .. this was not the only instance.. I would guess that Roger's case was just one of many that instigated Mr. Gross' post here. The resulting discussion is clearly about much larger issues and many "cases"

Anyway... you all know my opinions on both this thread and the issues it addresses as wel as the treatment that Roger recieved.

We can and will do a better job of this.. we do it often in fact.

I am very glad to see you returned Roger.. and I look forward to seeing more of you here.. especially when you get that defective camera back all fixed up and you can show us a thing or two about taking pics! 8) :D