HELP! They want my pictures!

[LowTechMan]

I have some nice aerial photos taken from a helicopter we chartered in the Virgin Islands. (darned near fell out getting one shot) I've been contacted by a villa broker who wants to use some of them on her website. They market all types of propertys from low end to very exclusive.

I am a total amature photographer and know nothing about this. Should I be happy that she at least asked my permission and be settle with being credited or should I ask to be paid... and how much.

Thanks in advance!!!

[robertwgross]

Well, let's see. You had to pay for the helicopter flight, yes?

At an absolute minimum, the photo rights can be sold to the company for the price you had to pay for the flight. But, that's a minimum.

Beyond that, you have to judge what the market will bear.

Amateur or not, the company still needs to pay you something.

---Bob Gross---

[HKMonkey]

I totally agree that they need to pay you something for the photos. Why do they want your photos? So they can make more money. It is only logical that if they are using your photos so they can make more money, they need to pay you for them. Now if it was a buddy or a non profit organization, I'd maybe settle for credit on their site, but for a business, you should get paid for them. Either that, or suggest they hire you another helicopter to take photos specifically for them. Then, of course, charge for those as well. Makes me think... Villa broker... Virgin Islands... They aren't hurting for cash. :wink:

[IndyJeff]

Herein lies the problem of just seeing your photo credit on someones website. There are too many people who would give that image away just for the privialge of seeing their name at the bottom of a published photograph. If you don't give it to them, they may find some other sucker who will give them a similar shot.

This is one way you could approach it....... tell them that you already have the shot and incurred expenses in getting that shot. Now if they want the shot it will be much cheaper to buy your shot for use on their website alone. The expense of hiring a photographer, a chopper, not to mention the price of equipment and the fact that they already know the results of your shot whereas the new shot may not be as good as yours.
Tell them the cost of the chopper plus a % creative fee will get them web use for a period of 2 years. If they might want to use the shot for a brochure as well, double the price and sell it to them for unlimited use for 5 years. Rates for photography for advertisment purposes can be very high, even into the 4 figure range for a single shot.
Don't be afraid to negotiate just get a figure in mind of a minimum amount and don't go below it. You might also be able to negotiate a stay at their place and an assignment to shoot more photos of their property. Personally I wouldn't go less than $250 for 2 years and that is dirt cheap but, it would be better than letting the deal fall thru. Only you can tell how they are reacting to your asking price.
Good luck.

[robertwgross]

One year ago I stayed a couple of nights at a remote winter resort, and I paid the bill with my own hard-earned cash. Before I left, the manager and I exchanged business cards.

Several months later, the resort knew that it needed a better web site, so the manager got a web publishing guy to work on it, and the manager gave the web guy my card.

The web guy browsed my web site, saw my good photos of the resort, and then contacted me about use of some of them for their web site. I said, "Sure." Then I told them my terms: they get ten years of use for X fee per image. (cheap)

The web guy told me that he didn't have any budget, but that he just wanted to use a few of my shots.

I told him "OK, then. They get ten years of use for X fee per image." (the same cheap fee)

He went away. At the last that I browsed their web site, they had no decent images. I hope that works for them.

[Hold your ground!]

---Bob Gross---

[IndyJeff]

Bob did you ask the web guy if he was donating his services? I'll bet if they asked him to donate his services he would have hung up on them and never blinked an eye.

[robertwgross]

The web guy claimed that he was doing it as charity work.

I guess there is a lot of that going around these days.

I've heard of that for orphanages and old veteran's homes, but I've never heard of that for a winter resort.

---Bob Gross---

[IndyJeff]

I can understand that. I have been doing a lot of work for my favorite charity lately. ME!!!!!

It just amazes me the people who will get out of their line of regular work and do something else for free. You know I have always kind of had an interest in surgery, anyone need some surgery done? I'll work real cheap.

Try asking someone who wants you to donate your services if they will donate theirs to you. Most likely you will get an answer I have been given when asking for a freebie in return....."Well, we are a business." My answer to one guy, "No your not. Your a con artist who wants to be able to use other peoples property and not compensate them for it and make them feel like they are being unreasonable if they won't give it to you. Now the guy who owns the grocery store, he is a business. He pays for the stock, the ads, the photography, the sound in commercials and sells products for a profit. He has his overhead and figures it in his cost of doing business."

[Bruce Hamilton]

I have been doing a lot of work for my favorite charity lately. ME!!!!!

I prefer to call it the Gimme Fund... :lol:

[NILOLIGIST]

Not being a professional photography does not mean you have to give your photos away for free. If you want to give them the photos for a photo credit that is fine but you should be paid for the photo.

If your photos are that good then you should consider going pro.

It is hard for the pro's to make money because people are giving their photos away for free.

I would say let them use the photos and charge them a small fee for your time, it is better to get something for your time rather than nothing. Otherwise, you might find that they will be coming back for more free shots.

Also remember that your camera gear is NOT FREE. You purchased it to take photos for yourself not for others. People will appreciate you and your work if you value it and have them pay for that value.

A lesson learned the hard way.

Good luck,

NiL,

[NJDrew]

I would agree and disagree with everyones opinions. My belief is, it depends on if what you get now is better than what you might get later.

LowTechMan, believe me I am in that amature boat. In the drifting community of photographers, I have the least amount of exsperence and next to the lowest level of gear. A Falken Tire sponered driver who uses my photos in his promotional flyers, always asked if I wanted money for them and I always said no. Now he is getting more popular and with that he is spreading my name as well. So you see, sometimes giving a little in the begining will get you a lot in the end.

Just my 2 cents.

[henkbos]

Something that's free has no value.

Read the following article:

How flattering when someone asks you this. Read the article below and think again!

SOMETHING THAT IS FREE HAS NO VALUE!!

Henk


How Much Are Your Photos Worth?
Text © Copyright Tom Vezo


I am writing this article because the photo industry is being diluted with amateurs and semi-pros who are sometimes giving their photos away just to get a photo credit. Even some pro’s are selling their images at a rate that is way below the market price. The new technology is making it much easier for people to take better images and the Internet is making it much easier for photo buyers to access and buy photos at cheaper than market prices. Unfortunately, this is what is making all of our photos worth less and is bringing the credibility of our market down. This is where you, as a photographer, have the responsibility to stand strong in negotiating and pricing your photos. If you are unwilling or unable to do so, then turn it over to a professional. There is a number of pricing software programs, such as Fotoquote, to give you the guidelines of what a photo is worth.

Every photo in your collection is worth something, as soon as someone asks to use it. Pricing a photo, particularly never giving it away for free, is a big issue for everyone involved in the nature photography business or any other business or industry that is selling a product. If you don’t adhere to a standard pricing schedule, a business will not survive. Some will say that "this is just a hobby" and that they are not really in the business of photography. But as soon as someone asks to use your photo and you agree to allow it to be used you are now in the photography business. You are forced to make a decision that will affect you and perhaps more importantly, all other photographers as to the value this industry has. You must take this seriously because it affects everyone involved in the photography business.

Think about this, how much money have you spent on equipment, film and travel in all the years you've been involved in photography? How much time do you spend in the field? How many rolls of film and time did it take to learn to create these images? These are crucial questions in gaining the confidence you need when selling your photos and negotiating prices. Evaluating your time and money spent on this so called "hobby" should make you aware that you should never give your photos away or sell them below their true market value. Whenever someone wants a photo, it automatically has some value – unless it is for your Mother!

The time spent in the field is where we deceive ourselves the most, because it doesn't feel like work. You probably work harder at photography than at your regular job. Just because we love to be out taking pictures, this should not discount the fact that this is not part of the cost of pricing your photos. Most of you have jobs other than photography. Take your hourly rate at your regular job and multiply it by the time you spend in and out of the field, including editing, filing, labeling, creating delivery memos and even working on this site. Then think about not only the money you have spent in the past on equipment, but also what you are constantly shelling out for travel, new equipment, accessories, film, flash cards etc. Just like any other business, equipment, time and travel are essential in allowing us to take new and better photos and to keep us up-to-date in the industry. Now evaluate how much your photos are worth!

Some of the basic questions you need to ask the buyer are; what is the photo to be used for? For example, is it for a brochure, magazine, calendar, advertisement in a magazine, a book, etc? What size will the image be used? Generally the following sizes apply, Quarter page, half page, full page, double page spread, cover or back cover . What is the print run? If you are dealing with an advertising agency, ask who their client is. If you are not sure what to charge, NEVER try to give them a price at that moment or allow them to force you into making that decision, tell them you will get back to them. This gives you the time to research what your photo is really worth. What medium will the image be used for (web, print, TV, etc); what duration is the license, what language and/or territories, one use or repeated use, exclusive, non-exclusive, etc etc. It isn’t only about getting the right price; it’s about getting the right price for the specific license granted.

How would you feel if you gave a photo away? Well, at first it feels good because someone has interest in publishing one of your images. You get excited because you can’t wait to see it published with your name on it. But then after you’ve done it, you think to yourself that you probably should have made some money on that photo. Then the credibility of the whole transaction is diminished because in your heart you know you should have been paid. So, why not think about this before hand and negotiate a fair price that really gives your photo the credibility it deserves and you can be proud of the entire transaction? After all most people would like to say, "I’m a professional wildlife photographer" well, you are not if you give your photos away or sell them below market value. The word professional to me is someone who is qualified and experienced to do a good job in their industry and can make a fair living from it. If there is a request for one or more of your photos then those images are of professional quality and should be treated as having some true value to sell. Even though you may not be considered a full time professional, you are at that moment and you must act like one. If a client has a need for your work you should sell it at a fair price for you and everyone involved in the industry.

Here’s just one of the many traps, in my experience, that I have fallen into years ago and that many photographers still fall for today. I get a call from a non-profit organization and they tell me how much they love my work and would like to use a photo or photos for their brochure or signage, but they have a very small budget. They don’t want to pay for the image but will give me a credit line. My first reaction is how nice it is to say they love my work and want to use it. This is where most people get soft and they go along with the stroking of their ego. Believe me it’s a sales pitch, and here is how I handle it. I say, "You must be paying for the printing, paper, binding and design for your brochure, I would like to get paid for my photo as well." My expenses for equipment, film, processing and travel are all part of my business and I must keep up my overhead, so, I must get paid for my work. Even if the photo use is for signage in a refuge, they will pay for a company to create and install it why shouldn’t we get paid for our image. NO MATTER WHAT THE USAGE OF YOUR PHOTO IS, IT SHOULD BE SOLD AT A FAIR MARKET PRICE AND SHOULD NEVER BE GIVEN AWAY FOR FREE. There’s only one exception to that rule – if it’s for your mother.

I have never given a photo away for free, (except to my mother) or where I felt it was warranted, (e.g.: working with biologists, someone allowing me on private property, etc.) However, I have been beaten down on price and went away with that sinking feeling that I should have held to a better price. I have turned down offers for lots of money based on the principle of ethics of what a photo should be worth in the industry. Believe me, it’s not easy to turn down lots of money, but I also know that this will undermine the future pricing for other photographers and will set a standard for lower prices, which this industry cannot afford.

Most of this discussion focuses on possible clients as well as photographers who are not aware of the value of their work involved in the transaction. Many photographers do not take their work seriously enough in a sales transaction.(when obviously they should.) Clients on the other hand might not know enough regarding the business of buying and selling photographs. They might not be aware of the value of the visual impact the photographs have as part of their production package. These are the people who need to be educated. I attempt to educate them in a nice way as to why my photos are worth buying.

On the other side of the fence, I have just finished a book project with National Geographic in which four or five photographers were involved. It was a pleasure dealing with them because they know the photographic industry well and how much they expect to pay for images. These are the clients I try to acquire but it doesn’t happen on a regular basis. Therefore educating the potential new client is essential.

Right now we are experiencing a bad economy and this is another area of consideration we need to address. Every business will push for lower prices in these times but these prices should not stay down forever. Once we get through these hard times we have to raise our prices accordingly. But still, you should not allow use of your photos without monetary compensation; there is NO excuse for that.

The only person that warrants a free photo is MOM with very few other exceptions. Hold onto your creativity and credibility as a nature photographer. Get what you deserve! After all you have dedicated a great deal of time, money and work to your craft. Your business actions will impact the future of the nature photography business for many years to come.

[NILOLIGIST]

Recently at work I was asked by a group to take their shots for the web. I told them okay no problem. The guy told me the reason we asked you is because "you have a high resolution digital camera and knew we didn't have to pay you". I said well I am a professional photographer now and I get paid to take photos. I will do you a favor but you have to give me something for my time. I said by me lunch as I don't expect you to pay my rate. He said fine. Then I thought to myself even for a favor that is to small an amount so I called him and said by lunch for my group. He said hey that is a lot of money...I told him, if you think that is too much you should go and buy yourself a cheap digital camera and take the photos yourself. He did pick up lunch for 8 people. It wasn't much but it was the point and the principal. He paid and he got more than his money's worth.

I no longer have a problem turning people away if it is not worth my time. All you have in this business is your name and your reputation. Don't start off from the beginning by ruining both.

Good luck,

NiL,

[LowTechMan]

Wow! Thanks everyone. Below I pasted my response to the inquiry on my photos. I was turned down, that's Ok, there's always next time. At least I didn't cheapen the indutrusty any and I still have my dignity intact. :lol:
I'm happy with my decicion, the responses prompted me to compare this to my day job and I also have a problem with competitors giving it out for free. I won't do it for my day job so why should I do it with my photos. Thanks again!!


Dear ****,

I have put much thought into this and here is what I have decided. Personal use of my photos is fine with permision. Commercial use is however entirely another matter. I have already decided to sell my photos commercially once we increase our portfolio. A much larger portfolio is planned including all the islands.

If you were to commision these same photos to be taken you would have to bear the cost of the helicopter charter, the photographers fee as well as any other costs involved and you would not be guaranteed that the results would meet your expectations. We have already paid these expenses and you know the results.

I am willing to sell the rights to use the photos taken in January 2004 for a period of two years for the cost of the heliocopter charter alone, aprox. $300.00. I will send you a CD with the full resolution photos which will be higher quality than the pictures you've seen on the web.

Looking foreward to your reply.

[Penguin_101_1]

Too bad you were turned down. It sounded like a pretty fair price to me.

[NILOLIGIST]

I am sorry that they turned you down but you are right you still do have your dignity and they don't have a photo. Perhaps, someone will come to them with a image of lesser quality and that will prompt them to come back.

It is sometimes better to sell your photos for their worth rather than get some credit that you don't feel good about.

Take it from someone that has learned the hard way. When it is time it will happen for you and it will be worth the wait.

Keep shooting,

NiL,

[MrPogo]

Basically, the attitude to take is that if a business wants your photograph they should pay, because even if you're just doing it for fun, by giving away that photo you're depriving a professional photographer of his livelyhood.
You may enjoy washing your car on a sunday, but if while you were out there a guy came up to you and said "Hey, that's a great job you're doing there! Want to come and wash the cars at my dealership when you're done?" you wouldn't go and do it for free. In reality it's the same basic princple.
You can of course make exceptions if you feel it's right, like the guy who let's the up and coming driver use his photos, but if in a couple of years time that guy is winning championships and wants to use your photos on a t-shirts he's selling for $30 a piece then it's time to start charging there too ;)

[damnengine]

The same thing happens with bands not willing to pay for artwork, I wrote this a while ago:

http://damnengine.deviantart.com/journal/2396623/

[elbirth]

I would agree and disagree with everyones opinions. My belief is, it depends on if what you get now is better than what you might get later.

LowTechMan, believe me I am in that amature boat. In the drifting community of photographers, I have the least amount of exsperence and next to the lowest level of gear. A Falken Tire sponered driver who uses my photos in his promotional flyers, always asked if I wanted money for them and I always said no. Now he is getting more popular and with that he is spreading my name as well. So you see, sometimes giving a little in the begining will get you a lot in the end.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree, you have to be cautious with how you approach such situations, as you want to not spoil things for what you could possibly get later (not to be selfish or anything...). However, NJDrew, I wonder in your case... could you have accepted some money for what you were providing and STILL get your name spread out there as well?