How to get EVERYTHING right?!

[cookielida]

Hey all!
Well, yeah, me too shooting stage performance...lucky me, I am shooting ballet and such, thus lighting can be most of the time quite illuminating (say that again) with ISO 800, f/2 at 1/100 to 1/200...
Thing is, I have a problem in maintaining all aspects correct. Meaning, this is a VERY fast event, alot happening on stage (dancers in several spots on stage) and I find myself focused more on finding those great moments than on other aspects in photography such as:
1) Keep the exposure correct...damn, that's the hardest one...most of the time it works fine after I calibrate it after the first shots but if the lighting dramatically changes I lost it. I am using partial metering, which is partial successful literally! (damn, canon, why can't you put the damn spot metering!! only the 30D has it in this class...)
2) Find great moments (among many happening on stage) - I more or less found a solution which is feeling what's the MAIN couple or dance and keep track of it for a while and then moving to another dancer(s).
3) Keep the shutter speed at a sane level (even if I set it to a fixed shutter speed via the TV priority the safety AV/TV shift can get you a lower than expected shutter speed...)
4) Keep the focus spot-on, something which is very very hard with dancers moving all around fast. I am using Servo focusing, which is super for keeping the focus, but it's a bitch when it comes to composing. Lets say that for a split moment, the dancers stands still - great! But, I want to recompose but keep that fine focus on the eyes...ha, not a good idea with Servo focusing, mate...shifting focus system in the middle isn't easy, too. I am using the 20D, and I have the little multicontroller that can be quite hard to play and shift the focusing point from one point to another...maybe I should train myself at home an hour or so on shifting the focus point till I will master it...

So, how do you all manage to do all the above with success?? (I know, shoot a lot, i am...but I want to lower the number of shots and increase the percent of successful shots...that's my aim

10x for your time
I added some shots for the fun of it...
Chen
PS *- I was quite frustrated to realize my solution for a steady shot wasn't that comfortable - I use fixed focals from 50 to 135mm and a support is a bless! However, as I am using two bodies (each mounted with a different lens), I find it hard to move from the monopod mounted camera to the hand held with speed...also, coming back to the monopod mounted camera is time consuming as I am using a ball head on the monopod...any advice here will be welcomed.

[Curtis N]

Everyone has their own strategy. Here's mine.
1) Set the ISO as high as it will go. Don't whine about noise. That can be dealt with. This will allow faster shutter speed (I like 1/400 for dance if I can get it). With enough light this might also allow a smaller aperture and with more DOF you won't have so many focus issues.
2) Forget partial or spot metering. Use CW Average metering and use EC to adjust for bright or dark backgrounds. This requires some practice and analysis to get right, but once you learn, it's quicker. Then you only need to adjust EC to account for the background and let the camera do the rest.
3) Use the * button for autofocus (custom function 4-3). Then you can control when it changes focus. This "focus on the eyes" stuff is for portrait shooters who have all day to get a shot. I normally use center point for a single dancer or all focus points for a pair or group. When you're shooting moving people, the best you can reasonably hope for is to focus on some part or your intended subject.
4) If you're using more than one body, lose the monopod.

Once you get away from "aim, meter, recompose" and "aim, focus, recompose", you'll might actually be able to get some well-timed shots.

[InspiredGraphix]

I pretty much echo Curtis here.

Predicting your exposure compensation etc will get you a long way. Usually i just shoot -2/3 EC in theatre, and find that works for most things. Keep an eye out for your blinkies to check you are not blowing your subjects, as this is usually what happens if you overexpose. Chimping too much will make you go blind, and waste your time, so just check your initial setup when you start and again half a dozen times through the set (if your set is short, then chimp less).

Forget the monopods, they will er... make you go blind also :D. Unless you have shot your set, been ushered from the pit, and are blazing your 400mm f2.8 from the back of theatre (aka Dwight), then you don't need your monopod. If you find you need a steadier hand, join a gym or something. I know this sounds stupid but it will seriously help.

While i am not built like a fridge or anything, but regular gym work really helps my hand hold technique.

Practise, practise, practise...

Personally I rarely use Servo focus in theatre, even for dance. I find it more trouble than it is worth for this type of shooting, but that could just be preference.

I do try and focus for the eyes, but if it doesn't happen, it is not the end of the world.

Rob

[cookielida]

Everyone has their own strategy. Here's mine.
1) Set the ISO as high as it will go. Don't whine about noise. That can be dealt with. This will allow faster shutter speed (I like 1/400 for dance if I can get it). With enough light this might also allow a smaller aperture and with more DOF you won't have so many focus issues.
2) Forget partial or spot metering. Use CW Average metering and use EC to adjust for bright or dark backgrounds. This requires some practice and analysis to get right, but once you learn, it's quicker. Then you only need to adjust EC to account for the background and let the camera do the rest.
3) Use the * button for autofocus (custom function 4-3). Then you can control when it changes focus. This "focus on the eyes" stuff is for portrait shooters who have all day to get a shot. I normally use center point for a single dancer or all focus points for a pair or group. When you're shooting moving people, the best you can reasonably hope for is to focus on some part or your intended subject.
4) If you're using more than one body, lose the monopod.

Once you get away from "aim, meter, recompose" and "aim, focus, recompose", you'll might actually be able to get some well-timed shots.

Firts of all thanks for the tips...
About the ISO - ISO 3200 is too grainy for me and is not desirable - my work is suppose to be printed 7x5 inch , which will show the high ISO (the 20D is not that hot at ISO 3200, in my tatse anyway). I will consider working with ISO 1600 to stop motion and hand shake, though. I really want as lower noice as possible, and removing noise from over 500 shots is way too much time consuming...(shooting raw is enough time consuming on it's own)
The monopod is indeed a pain - sorry for me, I bought it just for this purpose and it seems I have done a mistake...150 USD...
The metering thing is interesting - why CW? the difference between Partial and CW metering is the circular dimesion, and with CW you gonna get metering of the BG, too...I use a 200 equiv focal length and in most cases the partial circle is filled with the clothing of the subject. Many times the clothing itself is the main issue, as it changes from dance session to another in addition to the change of clothing between dancers in the same session...
I use CFn as you said (that's the only way to seperate the metering from focusing) but as I see, you still didn't answer my question - how the hell you recompose when you are in servo focus mode...?

I pretty much echo Curtis here.

Predicting your exposure compensation etc will get you a long way. Usually i just shoot -2/3 EC in theatre, and find that works for most things. Keep an eye out for your blinkies to check you are not blowing your subjects, as this is usually what happens if you overexpose. Chimping too much will make you go blind, and waste your time, so just check your initial setup when you start and again half a dozen times through the set (if your set is short, then chimp less).

Forget the monopods, they will er... make you go blind also :D. Unless you have shot your set, been ushered from the pit, and are blazing your 400mm f2.8 from the back of theatre (aka Dwight), then you don't need your monopod. If you find you need a steadier hand, join a gym or something. I know this sounds stupid but it will seriously help.

While i am not built like a fridge or anything, but regular gym work really helps my hand hold technique.

Practise, practise, practise...

Personally I rarely use Servo focus in theatre, even for dance. I find it more trouble than it is worth for this type of shooting, but that could just be preference.

I do try and focus for the eyes, but if it doesn't happen, it is not the end of the world.

Rob

Hey Rob!
Well, actually it isn't a matter of weight as I am using the 135 and steady my hand on the arm support of the chair. The amazing thing is that the main "-destabilizer" element is the god damn mirror of the 20D...when it flips, it shakes the whole body...I know this becuase when I shot with a 300D with the same lens, i felt that I had less shake and a very stable squeeze of the shutter... amazing! I am about to buy the 400D as a second body (the 300D is way to slow for this kind of job) and maybe will use it with the 135, where the focal longer focal length is very sensitive to hand shake...
Well, I can use one shot, but then due to the constant movment of the dancers and the use of shallow DOF, I will most of the time miss focus, and that's a problem. I will rethink and might try next time to work with one shot and see how it works for me...
10x for your time
Chen

[Curtis N]

Cookie,

Certainly you can choose the ISO setting you're most comfortable with. Just be aware there will be times when ISO 3200 is a godsend, and it can improve your keeper ratio for the reasons I mentioned above. If you're doing a lot of dance/theatre work, then I highly recommend a dedicated noise reduction program like Noise Ninja or Neatimage. Get the pro version so you can do batch processing. Maybe you won't need it all the time, but there will be times when it's invaluable.

I have a book full of 8x10s that were shot at ISO 3200 with a 20D or ISO 1600 with a 300D. Last month I sold a 16x24 print from a heavily cropped ISO 3200 shot. The customer said it was beautiful.

[cookielida]

Cookie,

Certainly you can choose the ISO setting you're most comfortable with. Just be aware there will be times when ISO 3200 is a godsend, and it can improve your keeper ratio for the reasons I mentioned above. If you're doing a lot of dance/theatre work, then I highly recommend a dedicated noise reduction program like Noise Ninja or Neatimage. Get the pro version so you can do batch processing. Maybe you won't need it all the time, but there will be times when it's invaluable.

I have a book full of 8x10s that were shot at ISO 3200 with a 20D or ISO 1600 with a 300D. Last month I sold a 16x24 print from a heavily cropped ISO 3200 shot. The customer said it was beautiful.

Hey Curtis!
I totally agree...I think that the best thing will be to really test the boundaries of the camera at the high ISO settings. I have Noise Ninja and it works well, though I didn't try it in batch work - I need to see how much time it takes to batch process all...

[Curtis N]

I have Noise Ninja and it works well, though I didn't try it in batch work - I need to see how much time it takes to batch process all...There are three ways to run Noise Ninja - You can have it profile each image, you can download their standard profiles for your camera at various ISO settings, or you can print their profiling chart and shoot it to create your own profiles.

When you batch process, having it profile each image will slow things down quite a bit. Using one of the other options will make things go more quickly. I have been using their standard profiles for my camera and it does a pretty nice job.

[narlus]

curtis, what other settings (strength, radius) do you typically use for batch processing?

[blackshadow]

I don't think I have ever taken a photo and got EVERYTHING right; I know I take photos where I get a lot right but on close examination of each shot I usually see room for improvement.

In the heat of the moment of shooting performing arts, where there is lots of movement and lots of changes in lighting I think those rare moments of perfection are going to be rare but there are ways to maximise the chances of getting everything right.

As Curtis pointed out; everyone has their own strategy/style and what's right for you mightn't be right for me or someone else.

A few simple pointers that I find lead to more quality shots are:

Choose the right lens for the job - I find in decent light a zoom allows a lot more flexibility for framing a shot.

If possible research your subject - certain performers move in certain ways and have their own little idiosynchrasies to look out for or drama or dance have those special scenes to look out for.

When covering performances I try to get decent shots of all the performers and once I have those in the bag I then start to look for ways to get the spectacular or outstanding shots by looking for angles, lighting effects or just waiting for that moment you know is going to come.

I agree with the comment about don't be afraid to shoot at high ISO to make sure you get the shot.

I find EC to be an invaluable tool to bring out the best in performers under tricky lighting/background situations (last night I shot nearly a whole show at -2 EC).

Keep an eye on the shots you are getting and if you aren't happy with the results adjust your camera settings until you start getting results you want.

[Curtis N]

curtis, what other settings (strength, radius) do you typically use for batch processing?I'll have to check the Noise Ninja settings tonight.

[DwightMcCann]

All my photos are PERFECT as everyone here can attest! ROFLMAO! Hey, if it was easy everybody could do it.

[InspiredGraphix]

Yes we know Dwight, but if he knew how to be you he wouldn't have posted the question would he ROFLMAO!!! :D

And yeah, I think part of the benefit of shooting low light is that every Joe's P&S camera can't come anywhere close. Even the *really consumer* (if you know what i mean - all those non Canon/Nikon ones that have plastic lenses and such) SLRs just can't keep up.

I have a girl who LOVES photography who is the choreographer for alot of shows that i shoot. I am forever hearing her camera click clacking at 1/10 or something. Half because she doesn't know what she is doing, half because her gear is crap.

In good light, even Uncle bob with his P&S is bound to get a few nice keepers, but rarely is the case in a Live Ent. venue.

Rob

[DwightMcCann]

I'm just tired, Rob. Hey, you could suggest that setup in your avatar!

[cookielida]

I don't think I have ever taken a photo and got EVERYTHING right; I know I take photos where I get a lot right but on close examination of each shot I usually see room for improvement.

In the heat of the moment of shooting performing arts, where there is lots of movement and lots of changes in lighting I think those rare moments of perfection are going to be rare but there are ways to maximise the chances of getting everything right.

As Curtis pointed out; everyone has their own strategy/style and what's right for you mightn't be right for me or someone else.

A few simple pointers that I find lead to more quality shots are:

Choose the right lens for the job - I find in decent light a zoom allows a lot more flexibility for framing a shot.

If possible research your subject - certain performers move in certain ways and have their own little idiosynchrasies to look out for or drama or dance have those special scenes to look out for.

When covering performances I try to get decent shots of all the performers and once I have those in the bag I then start to look for ways to get the spectacular or outstanding shots by looking for angles, lighting effects or just waiting for that moment you know is going to come.

I agree with the comment about don't be afraid to shoot at high ISO to make sure you get the shot.

I find EC to be an invaluable tool to bring out the best in performers under tricky lighting/background situations (last night I shot nearly a whole show at -2 EC).

Keep an eye on the shots you are getting and if you aren't happy with the results adjust your camera settings until you start getting results you want.

Thanks for the tips!
True , perfection is impossible (in regard to Dwight's comment), but I am aspiring to get as close as possible! I know it involves a lot of shooting, that;s one thing I am working on...anyway, thanks for your time!

[blackshadow]

One more tip; invest in plenty of memory cards and make sure you use them! Also I find shooting in RAW gives you a lot more options to recover shots into nice looking images that would otherwise be lost shooting jpg.

[cookielida]

One more tip; invest in plenty of memory cards and make sure you use them! Also I find shooting in RAW gives you a lot more options to recover shots into nice looking images that would otherwise be lost shooting jpg.

Oh, yeah, enough of them (tottal 8 GB of memory...) ...especially as like you I found shooting RAW the saver of the day...