Motorsports, Raws or not raws..

[Jakkin]

I was shooting BTCC on Sunday at Croft with 2 x 2gb CF cards, at first I was shooting Raw + S then soon I realised I was running out of space real quick, so I switched to L only after the first 12:00 Session. I am wondering what most of the people do here (none pros), do you shoot the full day with raws or all JPEGS?

[Simon Harrison]

I shoot only in raw. Flash memory is so cheap these days, (approx £7 for a 1 gig CF card - 7dayshop) that memory should not be too much of a problem.

Simon.

[bren.wright]

I had one 2gb card and was shooting raw only @ croft. I cannot see the point in raw + jpg.

I suppose it depends on how you like to shoot. I prefer to not have my finger constantly over the shutter button, it means there is less rubbish to sort through when you get home.

[Jakkin]

raw + jpg means I can view it on my camera and when looking at them on my computer I get nice thumbnails? Or is there a better way of doing this.

[bren.wright]

what program do you use on your computer? Get something that will read raw files like the latest photoshop and use adobe bridge or adobe lightroom to view the thumbnails.

Raw has so many advantages, you can totally screw up the exposure of a shot and then recover it with processing.

[GSH]

raw + jpg means I can view it on my camera and when looking at them on my computer I get nice thumbnails? Or is there a better way of doing this.

Do a Google for the Microsoft Raw Viewer. It gives you thumbnails without the need to shoot RAW+JPEG. You can also right-click & preview in Windows Pic & Fax Viewer.

Personally i just browse through the RAWs in Breezebrowser, junk / keep as necessary then leave it to process the shots whilst i'm doing something less boring instead ;)

[Jakkin]

Cool, I knew there is a better way of doing this... haha.

I am currently using Window Vista's Explorer and PS CS2. If Explorer can display thumbnails then I will not shoot jpgs any more... only thing is you can't then playback the images on your camera then?

I will take a look at MS Raw Viewer GSH.

Cheers

[Simon Harrison]

Raw has so many advantages, you can totally screw up the exposure of a shot and then recover it with processing.

Raw does have many advantages, but I always cringe when I hear this particular one quoted. Raw should not be relied upon for this IMHO. Nothing beats getting the shot right when the shutter is pressed.

Simon.

[Pete W]

Cool, I knew there is a better way of doing this... haha.

I am currently using Window Vista's Explorer and PS CS2. If Explorer can display thumbnails then I will not shoot jpgs any more... only thing is you can't then playback the images on your camera then?

I will take a look at MS Raw Viewer GSH.

Cheers


Yes it can, Go to Canon site for the codec

http://software.canon-europe.com/software/0026049.asp?model=

[Jakkin]

I understand the benefits of Raw, but as it was my first track outting I was a bit worried about my storage, so I shot session of raws + jpg then went jpg only for the rest of the day.

GSH - MS Raw viewer doesn't support Vista

Peter - Cheers, I will take a look that'd be great as I rather to not open Bridge it's quite resource hungry.

[Jakkin]

Peter - that codec supports Vista but doesn't support 64bits versions, I have Vista Ultimate 64bit LOL.

[GSH]

GSH - MS Raw viewer doesn't support Vista




Oh the irony of Microsoft not being able to support their own software with their fancy new OS. That'll be why i spec'd my new PC with XP Pro then.

[bren.wright]

Raw does have many advantages, but I always cringe when I hear this particular one quoted. Raw should not be relied upon for this IMHO. Nothing beats getting the shot right when the shutter is pressed.

Simon.

Yes I totally see your point on this one. It's incredible what detail can be recovered from a RAW image file though if all else fails.

[Dave_G]

I very very rarely shoot RAW. What do I need to shoot RAW for? I only do it for fun :D

If there's a particular car that I might want a print done then I might shoot RAW.

Some troublesome situations I've found are when it's raining and the drivers stick the lights on - I then shoot manual. Also sometimes I've found shooting orange coloured cars when it's overcast or rainy can also give you grief, the metering gets a bit screwed up and everything except the car can be given a slightly green or blue hue.

I'm sure RAW can work wonders for some people but I personally don't think it's worth anyone that doesn't get paid for their images to use it, especially if they're capable of getting it right in the camera - which, let's face it...most of the regulars on here are. Right?

[rcg]

At the recent AMA Superbike round in Sonoma I shot about 3000 images...RAW+S. As mentioned storage is cheap I carry 8 2GB cards and off load to laptop after the session. The small JPGs are so I can send images to online outlets quickly. Otherwise I would just shoot RAW.

Without starting the whole RAW vs JPG debate I simply prefer to have the MAX dynamic range in the image so I have choices. If I want to compress the image to jpg I have that option later. You can certainly edit a bit better in RAW to recover some tricky situations but obviously getting right in camera is the best option. Frankly I think most people are scared to use RAW and stick with JPG for familiarity sake and the perception that it's easier . For these images http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=323207 I simply selected them in light room and used the export to JPG command - what could be easier.

[GAELICSTORM7]

Hi, I've recently moved over to shooting RAW's all the time, I find that compared to JPEG the RAWS seem to have much more detail visible in either shadows or bright area's of the frame, i.e, if a sky looks blown out in a JPEG in the RAW version there is detail !.

I shot RAWS all day at Croft on Saturday (2 and a half 4 gig cards filled) as has already been said memory is cheap enough.

Alan

[rcg]

... only thing is you can't then playback the images on your camera then?


When shooting RAW a small JPG is created in camera for preview and playback.

[ashbyroadeast]

I've seen the future- Its RAW, I only shoot in Raw, with Lightroom or similar it's just as easy as Jpeg.

[Cadwell]

I've made a substantial investment in getting the best cameras and lenses I can in order to shoot motorsport... I am certainly not going to waste that investment by then taking pictures in an inferior quality image format; that would be a foolish thing to do. I don't use JPEG.

[PhotosGuy]

raw + jpg means I can view it on my camera and when looking at them on my computer I get nice thumbnails? No. You can view only RAW, too. Raw does have many advantages, but I always cringe when I hear this particular one quoted. Raw should not be relied upon for this IMHO. Nothing beats getting the shot right when the shutter is pressed. I agree! But if/when I screw up...
Why I love RAW - '53 Ford Sunliner (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=43761) I'm sure RAW can work wonders for some people but I personally don't think it's worth anyone that doesn't get paid for their images to use it, especially if they're capable of getting it right in the camera - which, let's face it...most of the regulars on here are. Right? Take a RAW + max jpeg shot. Convert the RAW file to jpeg & look at the two file sizes. A max jpg from my 20D is 2,754 KB. The exact same shot with the jpg extracted from RAW is 4,315 KB which is 1.57X larger.
Why throw those extra bits away? True, you might think you won't see the difference in a web image on your screen, but that's not true. Look at post 58 on page 2 in this thread:

Auto White Balance - works really well (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=234507)
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2208481&postcount=58

[gdrMatt]

RAW+S. As mentioned, storage is cheap I carry 2GB cards and off load to a laptop after the session. The small JPGs are so I can send images to online outlets quickly. Otherwise I would just shoot RAW.


same here. .jpg's are easier to work with if you need the photos posted quickly. prints and adjustments are done with RAW.

[GVal]

always RAW for me. I've got 5 8GB cards and should those fill up I always have my laptop and an external HD handy.

[GilesGuthrie]

Yep, all RAW only for me. I usually take 17GB of memory with me, and it's generally enough. I shot 750 frames at Knockhill this year, which was something like 11GB.

I use Lightroom & Photoshop for my processing, which makes RAW handling completely transparent.

[Lowner]

I'm another that only shoots RAW, be it motorsport or anything else.

I review the images in DPP, so have no need at all for a jpeg thumbnail.

[Erik95LS]

RAW only for me at all times. Memory is cheap as said before.

[Bosscat]

I've never shot RAW and don't intend to anytime soon.

[Kyl3]

JPEG for me at the track..unless a particular assignment requires use of RAW...

[Echo63]

i use raw all the time, my workflow would be the same whether i use raw or jpeg (lightroom to tone and sharpen, etc) so why throw away all the extra infromation i get in a raw file, just to save a little space
i have plenty of card space, i filled 2x 4gb cards yesterday, with 1100ish shots, a fairly full day of racing.
i have nearly 20gb of cards to use, so space isnt a problem

[Moppie]

GSH - MS Raw viewer doesn't support Vista


Better not tell my copy of Vista that, as it is working really well at the moment.
It even generates previews of images on cards in the card reader.

I've made a substantial investment in getting the best cameras and lenses I can in order to shoot motorsport... I am certainly not going to waste that investment by then taking pictures in an inferior quality image format; that would be a foolish thing to do. I don't use JPEG.

Absolutely.

[ryant35]

I bought an expo disc and every couple of hours or when the light changes I reset my custom white balance. Perfect color & WB every time so no need for shooting raw. I shoot too much and I my turn around is too fast to process raw photos.

4000 per day of off road racing is already too much to go through.

[Moppie]

4000 per day of off road racing is already too much to go through.


That is either one very large field of cars, or your getting far to many duplicate or similar shots.

[ryant35]

That is either one very large field of cars, or your getting far to many duplicate or similar shots.

Off road racing is different every lap when you have 21 800 horsepower trucks on a 3/4 short course track that isn't wide enough.

There are also 3 truck classes, 2 buggies & 3 classes of kids in 1/10 scale trophy trucks.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k173/ryant35/CORR%20CV%202-2/IMG_1000.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k173/ryant35/CORR%20CV%202-2/IMG_0493.jpg

[ryant35]

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k173/ryant35/CORR%20CV%202/IMG_2016.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k173/ryant35/CORR%20Pomona%203/IMG_3629.jpg

There is a lot of action that you just don't catch by not shooting a lot.

[Milner]

Depends on the purpose/use. If I am shooting for myself (freelance) or for a mag, I will shoot raw. If I am covering an event for a web site I will shoot jpg. They want them up NOW, it is all about getting the pics of an event up before the other site, so they get the hits and the $$ There have been live coverage events that I pass off cards to them and the upload to their site while I am still shooting.
If I have the time, I will always shoot raw. The finished product is just better and I have more control.

[SpeedySwede]

I was recently in a situation where I was shooting a Poker Run(Performance Boats). In that situation I was limited to 20-30 seconds of pictures until the boats where gone. I had just started using RAW and missed some good shots because of the extra download time to the CF card that I was not really expexting. Is this just an issue with the XTI and my card or is this normal if you want to shoot 20 pics pretty fast? I think I probably had a good 10 seconds that I missed?

[Milner]

I was recently in a situation where I was shooting a Poker Run(Performance Boats). In that situation I was limited to 20-30 seconds of pictures until the boats where gone. I had just started using RAW and missed some good shots because of the extra download time to the CF card that I was not really expexting. Is this just an issue with the XTI and my card or is this normal if you want to shoot 20 pics pretty fast? I think I probably had a good 10 seconds that I missed?

It's an issue with the buffer size in the xti. I even hit the buffer occasionally on my 40d. Best way around it is $$$$:(

[totalphoto]

RAW+L, edit great RAW pics for the wire service, L jpg's go to the clients.

[Lowner]

I just dont believe anyone can take 4000 shots in a day and give each one the attention it deserves.

Thats just de-skilling down to the level a totally automatic mechanised camera could replicate. Photograhy is supposed to be an artistic medium, not just a record production system.

[ryant35]

I just dont believe anyone can take 4000 shots in a day and give each one the attention it deserves.

Thats just de-skilling down to the level a totally automatic mechanised camera could replicate. Photograhy is supposed to be an artistic medium, not just a record production system.


It comes down to the numbers of racers, races and different classes.

Numbers are approx. off the top of my head:
Pro 4 trucks 23
Pro 2 trucks 25-30
Pro Lite trucks 20-25
Pro Buggy 25-30
Single Buggy - 30
UTV - 25
Trophy Kart - 84 in 3 different classes

All of these classes run a practice/qualifying then a race each day.

Short course off-road racing is completely different than pavement racing, every lap gives the opportunity for different shots. These trucks take a different line, hit a rut and come up on 2 or 3 wheels, or catch too much air off a jump. If off-road racing you can use the dirt that is thrown and you just can't capture that with one shot. With truck bouncing and flying through the air at close to 80 mph, a camera can't even keep up so if you take one shot it may not even be in focus. There is constant contact between the racers so if you shoot one at a time or try and be too artistic with it you will miss a lot. There is art involved but since your subject isn't sitting still or moving across a flat strip of payment you have to work a little harder and shoot more.

I also don't keep and post that many shots, I usually keep 1 or 2 per pass but only if there is something happening that makes the shot.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k173/ryant35/CORR%20CV%202-2/IMG_1000.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k173/ryant35/CORR%20CV%202/IMG_0800-1.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k173/ryant35/CORR%20Pomona%203/IMG_1660.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k173/ryant35/CORR%20Pomona%203/IMG_3629.jpg

[Cadwell]

I'd like to remind everyone that this area of the forum is for motorsport discussion, not for photo sharing. Including a single photo or maybe two to illustrate a particular technical point is fine but this isn't the place for general photo sharing.

[ryant35]

I'd like to remind everyone that this area of the forum is for motorsport discussion, not for photo sharing. Including a single photo or maybe two to illustrate a particular technical point is fine but this isn't the place for general photo sharing.

I know. I was posting examples of each of points above. All of the photos have also been posted in the photo sharing forum in the past year.

I'll just post 1 next time, sorry.

[totalphoto]

With the nascar stuff I have shot we have the event and clients to cover so we do not have to shoot everyone. Just the going ons of the race and client specific. So as much as you always have to be ready, cause things can happen quick at anytime, you can pass on a lot of laps cause not too much happening.
But if I had to cover everyone, I sure could understand A LOT of pics, I look for good clumps to shoot....like the front runners 3 wide and you can kinda watch stuff come to ya on the smaller tracks cause they are coming by every 30 seconds.

[ryant35]

With the nascar stuff I have shot we have the event and clients to cover so we do not have to shoot everyone. Just the going ons of the race and client specific. So as much as you always have to be ready, cause things can happen quick at anytime, you can pass on a lot of laps cause not too much happening.
But if I had to cover everyone, I sure could understand A LOT of pics, I look for good clumps to shoot....like the front runners 3 wide and you can kinda watch stuff come to ya on the smaller tracks cause they are coming by every 30 seconds.

And I do cover everyone, but I do have a few drivers I shoot for that I concentrate on.

[totalphoto]

Do you shoot off track as well?

[ryant35]

Do you shoot off track as well?


There is a media area at the top of the grandstands, but I prefer shooting on he track close to the action. I don't usually shoot with more than a 70-200 f/2.8 & 2x teleconverter so I try to stay close. Every turn is different and there is a few places to shoot on the infield. The only problem is you cannot move from one location to another. There is also a very small window to get back to the infield after a race.

[totalphoto]

Sorry, I mean like in the pits, cock-pit shots, pre race...etc

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3058/2877270440_4ab0e33bee.jpg

[ryant35]

Yeah the pits are open for media, and they line up the trucks for opening ceremonies and I can shoot the drivers on the ground when they get announced and once they are in the trucks. The problem with that, they water the track for the race and the front straight is very, very slippery. I've almost gone down a few times trying to negotiate around the trucks.

[totalphoto]

AHH, I figured with so many classes, once things got going you would not have time anyway.

[ryant35]

AHH, I figured with so many classes, once things got going you would not have time anyway.

Only 2 first race before opening ceremonies, I get shots like that of the others during practice while they are waiting in the pits in line.

[totalphoto]

Got Ya!

[weka2000]

Well Ive hit an intresting issue .......... Shooting with a 1Dsmk3 :lol:

Realising that it could be fun I set camera to sRAW ......5.2 meg 2784x1856 good for Max A4 print

There is no mRAW it would be a VERY nice feature (same size a 1D3). Next outing I will try at RAW and see if the CF card can handle it, then the transfer speed to the Canon M80. I get 130 shots per 4gig CF card at full RAW. 21mp is a big file and for sports shooting .........maybe to big.

May have to invest in a couple of UDMA 8 gig cards ..... wife wont let me get a 1D3 as well :(

[totalphoto]

Just for fun, what does it say on a 4 gig @ RAW+L
GREAT point about the mRAW!

[weka2000]

Just for fun, what does it say on a 4 gig @ RAW+L
GREAT point about the mRAW!
54 photos per 2 gig

[totalphoto]

OUCH!

[Moppie]

I remember talking to another photog last year, he was shooting with a 1DS MKII, and would take maybe 1, or 2 shots per lap, if that.
He had in the past used a medium formal film camera, and loved it.

It is not always about catching every single bit of action, but knowing and understanding the sport enough to be able to capture the import bits of action, and getting 1 or 2 nice angles of individual cars.

If you try and catch every single bit of mud, or stone, or bad steering angle, or locked wheel, or missed apex, you will just end with thousands of photos of mud, stones, locked wheels and missed apex's.

If that's what floats your boat then great, if you have customers buying all of those repetitive shots, then great, your doing the right thing.
If not, your wasting your time and producing lots of crap, instead of focusing on a smaller number of higher quality images.

[totalphoto]

Very well said!

[weka2000]

Iif you have customers buying all of those repetitive shots, then great, your doing the right thing..

Well its making me money :lol:

I do need to focus on angles more