LEGAL question about club photos, can you sell the images?

[bocaj]

DwightMcCann suggested i post this queston so here it goes :)

I have been shooting in night clubs for over 2 years. I started my own website to shoot downtown orlando

http://www.picturethenight.com (http://www.picturethenight.com/)

and I go around to bars and clubs snap pictures of people, they come to the site and download and use the images for free.. ( make money off banners and promoting other clubs )

however i got this email yesturday:

Hey Jacob-
I'm licensing a bunch of pics for a book I'm writing for xxxxx &
xxxxx on over the top couples in the club scene and am negotiating
with a bunch of club pic sites to license pics. I'm generally working
out group rates, so I'm paying about ( $xxxx per pic in groups of 25-35
pics per deal. So it generally works out to about a group rate of $xxxx
to license 30-35 pics for publication in the book. I would credit each
pic I use to you as photographer in the book.

If you're interested, I'd need to make sure that you retain copyright on
all pics and can sign the release form, and can provide me the large,
unwatermarked, hi-res copies (300dpi) of each select I make from the
site. If so, I can go through the site, pick the 35 or so I'd like,
then email you the list. Once you send the hi-res copies to me and sign
the release, I can pay you the $xxxx by PayPal or Money Order, whichever
you'd prefer.

Let me know if you're interested. You've taken some great photos, I'd
love to use them in the book, and will provide you with full credit in
the book, as well as provide a link if you'd like to your website.So my question is.. do i have the rights to license these images? i took the photos but of course they are candid pics snapped in public places so i retain the right to them.. however do i need to get a sign off for every person in these images in order to sell them to a book? I wouldnt think i would have to since its public domain BUT i dont want one of them to come back and sue my butt because of it. if you guys have any insight to this situation i would love to hear back from you thanks.

JacobThe(wannabe)Photographer :)

[DwightMcCann]

I told Jacob offline that I thought he should sell from his own website or a place like SmugMug or PrintRoom since I didn't think he had the right to sell these types of images to a third party without a model release. But I think it is an interesting issue and I'd like to know what you guys think.

[S.Horton]

http://www.photoattorney.com

Call her and/or buy her book.

(I'm a client)

[DwightMcCann]

http://www.photoattorney.com

Call her and/or buy her book.

(I'm a client)
OK, I just bought her book! :-)

[bieber]

There's no reason you shouldn't be allowed to sell the images, provided they're just being used as content in a book. As long as they're not planning on using the people in advertisements, you should be fine.

[Inspired Photography]

Would it come under editorial?

I know in Aus, nothing even near a model release is required for editorial use.
It is like the paparazzi and stuff not getting sued for naked pics of whoever or whatever in the tabloids.

Rob

[blackshadow]

For a book they should fall under the general "editorial" category that negates the need for any releases to be signed so you are free to sell the images. As long as the images aren't used to advertise the book.

I'd ship the images on CD after receiving payment and a signed licence agreement specifying that the publisher will only use the images in the specific book (use the book's title if they have one).

[bocaj]

OK, I just bought her book! :-)

sweet read it and let me know what it says ;) lol me kan't reed so well :-D

[bocaj]

For a book they should fall under the general "editorial" category that negates the need for any releases to be signed so you are free to sell the images. As long as the images aren't used to advertise the book.

I'd ship the images on CD after receiving payment and a signed licence agreement specifying that the publisher will only use the images in the specific book (use the book's title if they have one).

nice i am liking these answers :) keep them coming..

[<AkulA>]

I think you should send me all the photos and let me handle it! ;)

[livewire-photography.com]

mmmm im going to keep an eye on this thread as i do clubbing photography too.

[livewire-photography.com]

Tell me what sort of setting are you using? just looked at ur site and you have some really nice ones there.
Chees

[Tiesse]

As I understand it, the copyright for the images is yours. So long as you have permission to use your camera in the clubs, it is up to you what you do with the images. Having permission to publish the pictures of the clubbers in the shot without a model release form is a different minefield that I have no knowledge of (sorry).

I had a similar situation regarding copyright. I take pictures at an ice hockey team's home games & was approached by an over zealous previous member of the supporters club telling me that I would be infringing copyright by publishing my images online or otherwise.

Having seeked asvice, I found that so long as I have permission from the building's owners (which I have), the copyright for my pictures is with me & I can do what I want with them. As it is, we now have an agreement where I work with the official photographer (there are in fact three of us now working as a team).

Having said all of this, I live in the UK & copyright laws in other countries may differ.

[Yella Fella]

what if someone said its for editorial use but used it in a different context, can you sue their ass? would you draw up a contract for the usage of the pics too?

oh jacob, on a sub note, what was your settings for the club scene with these images? did you have a mini softbox on? nice exposures ;)

[sspellman]

Jacob-

This is a challenging situation. I am also a nightlife photographer who works for many local and national magazines. I have sold hundreds of performer and posed people pictures to magazines without model releases where the coverage is considered editorial. However, when client have wanted to use images commercially, I have insisted on model releases.

Some consideration should come also in the type or theme of the book. Subjects in the pictures would be more happy to be in a book called "American Nightlife" rather than "Disney World's Top Coke Whores". A fine art type of book should generate less conflict than a negative editorial or documentary book. Another consideration is that people where you verbally asked their permission are less likely to cause trouble than candid pictures.
Overall, your license to the publisher should clearly state that you have no model release for the pictures, and that you have no liability for their use of the images. On the whole, I would not say that you are immune from a lawsuit, but you should be at low risk if the subjects are portrayed in a positive way. A real lawyer might have a different opinion-it would be worth discussion.

Dan Heller has some really good information on Model Releases here:

http://www.danheller.com/model-release.html

[Mikefromearth]

I'm gonna have to keep an eye on this thread as well. I've been trying my hand at club photography, though I haven't shot a party since I got my 580ex. I'd stoked to give it a try. Eventually I'd like to sell my pictures, and I'd love to know what I can and can't do.

[jackies35]

This is a very interesting thread! I will definitely keep my eyes on this one...

I have a similiar issue.... However, it's not a company that wants the images, is someone I know (create his personal scrapbook). He also knows most of the people in the clubnite pictures. So, i will get everyone to sign a release form.

[kidpower]

The whole area of copyright is extremely complex. There are so many possibilities that probably the best one can do is to follow what you perceive to be proper for your situation. Usually courts look for previous rulings to help make decisions, but even then, just a single different circumstance can render prior decisions worthless.

And even when you think you have done everything by the book, there is no way of stopping someone of suing or bringing a lawsuit your way. To be honest, the only way to proceed in these matters is go by what you know and have been advised is okay, and then, if need be, let a court rule as to what is legal or not.

If you think you might be doing this a lot or something similiar, spend an hour with a copyright attorney, and see what he/she advises. You'll feel more comfortable in the long run.

[AK3Hiker]

I had a similar situation regarding copyright. I take pictures at an ice hockey team's home games & was approached by an over zealous previous member of the supporters club telling me that I would be infringing copyright by publishing my images online or otherwise.


In the U.S., as I understand it, you can photograph and post/publish just about anything, as long as it's not explicitly prohibited by law (very, very few of these exist) and as long as the subject does not have a 'resonable expectation of privacy' (such as shooting thru an office or home window with a telephoto lens).

Now, selling the photo for commercial use is another matter.