mirror lock up ?

[Sendide]

Hi dear fiends,
so many times people complain that Drebel does not have a mirror lock up while 10D has. I have a 10D but have NO IDEA what this mirror lock up helps for!!. I know that documentation is arround for that but real tips are always in this forum :wink:
any enlightenment is very welcome
thanks in advance.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Essentailly.. mirror lock up is most usefull when taking images in lower light/slower shutter speeds with a huge telephoto! :) (or a super macro etc.. )

At 500mm or more.. even on a rock steady tripod.. to get "ultimate" sharpness... one may need to illiminate the "mirror slap" as a possible source of vibration. By locking the mirror up before taking a shot... you can do exactly that.

However in practise I find is usefullness limited. Rarely do I have an opportunity to take advantage of mirror lock up when I shoot with a telephoto. My subjects are moving most of the time.. and I don't have time to "deal" with the timing of the mirror lock up.

It seems to me that it is a rather secific application that can take advantage of the lockup... hardly something to be too concerned about.

[robertwgross]

Mirror slap is only a potential problem at a certain range of shutter speeds. You will get different opinions, but it is generally from about 1/4 to maybe 1/20 second. It can be just a little vibration that causes your image to be just slightly fuzzy despite the camera being on a tripod.

Why that range only?

Anything faster (like 1/30), and the mirror slap happens after the end of the shutter, so it doesn't matter.

Anything slower (like 1/2), and the mirror slap PERIOD is only a small portion of the total shutter PERIOD, so it doesn't contribute much.

But, in that narrow PERIOD, the mirror slap can be significant. Some cameras are worse than others, but just about all SLR cameras have it to some degree. You would not shoot anything this slow without a tripod, would you?

---Bob Gross---

[Malok]

Hi Sendide,

If you don't use your mirror lockup. I would certainly be happy to trade my Drebel for your D10. I'll even throw in an extra $150. :D I take most of my photos in low light conditions but just couldn't afford to get the D10. Every day I wish I had that silly mirror lockup.

If you are interested let me know!

Malok

[robertwgross]

I would certainly be happy to trade my Drebel for your D10.


Sendide did not claim to have a D10.

---Bob Gross---

[DReb-MO]

I have lurked here for sometime, recently joined and became a member. I have posted in limited discussions but have learned an unbelievable amount from those on this Forum. In all that time I have seen your posts and they generally have an EDGE to them, such as the one above. Is it really needed? What do you gain from it? These posts remind me of "other" discussion groups and boards and are below the general sense of decorum that seems prevalent here. Just curious.

[Malok]

Thanks DReb-Mo,

I appologize if my comment was not constructive. If anything, I want to add a sense of lightheartedness to the group and contribute positively to this forum.

I also have found this group to be a bit more rough than other forums that I participate in. The G Series forum was great, but I'm always a little nervous to post something here. I think that part of the problem is that this forum includes lots of experts and also some of us who are just getting going. The experts are sick and tired of the same old questions asked by newbies and so it creates an environment which can be a bit hostile. Perhaps in the future they will find a way to have a separate forum for the lower end DSLR's.

Malok

[DReb-MO]

My comments were not for you but were for Mr. Gross.

[Sendide]

dear friends,
thanks for your comments and as I said, reading the details and information you get in this forum, I LOVE IT, and I do not think any book would detail the utility of mirror lock up as robertwgross did.
Robert, about your proposal, sorry but I just like the 10D and wanted to take advantage of its potential. otherwise, beleive me, I'd have trared it with even no extra cash.
regads
Khalid

[karusel]

robertwgross, that was truly enlightening... thank you. 8)

[robertwgross]

My comments were not for you but were for Mr. Gross.

If they had been intended for me, then that is what private messages are for.

---Bob Gross---

[robertwgross]

robertwgross, that was truly enlightening... thank you. 8)

Well, I had the very same question in my head back when I was a digital beginner, and my friend (an old pro) explained it to me.

Every camera is a little different and has a little different range of shutter speeds where mirror slap is worse. Further (I think) that the really high-end camera bodies have other gizmos around the mirror to soften the mirror slap vibration. For the rest of us with good, but not high-end, DSLR cameras, I guess we will just have to do the best we can.

---Bob Gross---

[G3]

Mirror slap is only a potential problem at a certain range of shutter speeds. You will get different opinions, but it is generally from about 1/4 to maybe 1/20 second. It can be just a little vibration that causes your image to be just slightly fuzzy despite the camera being on a tripod.

Why that range only?

Anything faster (like 1/30), and the mirror slap happens after the end of the shutter, so it doesn't matter.

Anything slower (like 1/2), and the mirror slap PERIOD is only a small portion of the total shutter PERIOD, so it doesn't contribute much.

But, in that narrow PERIOD, the mirror slap can be significant. Some cameras are worse than others, but just about all SLR cameras have it to some degree. You would not shoot anything this slow without a tripod, would you?

---Bob Gross---


Hey Bob,

Most of the time I agree with what you say...however....this time I'm not so sure. The way I understand the sequence of events (mechanicals only, this does not include the light readings, TTL or ETTL sensing, etc.) is this:

1.) User presses shutter button

2) mirror flops up out of the way

3) lens stops down

4) shutter fires

5) lens stops back up

6) mirror flops back down

(two and three are actually simultaneous, or nearly so, as are 5 and 6.

Number 2 in the sequence is where the vibration we are concerned about is induced. The problem is that the camera may still be vibrating slightly for a half-second or so after the mirror flops up, which is during the time of the shutter firing at all shutter speeds. So, I would think that it would certainly affect the image at any shutter speed that is slower than about 1/500 or so where the shutter speed is fast enough to actually "freeze" the vibration. I know that's true with my Medium Format cameras...the mirror is like a darned earthquake on those things. I would think the sequence would be the same on a Drebel or 10D. The mirror has to be out of the way before the shutter fires.

Is my thinking screwed up here?

[robertwgross]

The mirror has to be out of the way before the shutter fires.


I know we agree on that much.

I know there are two slaps from the mirror. One is as it hits up, and the other is as it hits back down. Like we said, when it hits up, it vibrates for a split second. When it hits back down, it doesn't matter, because the shutter is closed by then.

"Anything faster (like 1/30), and the mirror slap happens after the end of the shutter, so it doesn't matter."

I went back and read my words. It seems better if I change it to read this way:

"Anything faster (like 1/30), and the mirror slap happens before the start of the shutter, so it doesn't matter."

How does that work?

---Bob Gross---

[Sendide]

you guys became so "technical" and we're (myself and probably some fellas) get lost :oops:
with respect to professionals
khalid

[G3]

The mirror has to be out of the way before the shutter fires.


I know we agree on that much.

I know there are two slaps from the mirror. One is as it hits up, and the other is as it hits back down. Like we said, when it hits up, it vibrates for a split second. When it hits back down, it doesn't matter, because the shutter is closed by then.

"Anything faster (like 1/30), and the mirror slap happens after the end of the shutter, so it doesn't matter."

I went back and read my words. It seems better if I change it to read this way:

"Anything faster (like 1/30), and the mirror slap happens before the start of the shutter, so it doesn't matter."

How does that work?

---Bob Gross---





:) Works for me. I just use mirror lockup any time I think there might be an issue with vibration and I don't have any problems. With the medium format cameras, the vibration is visible. If you take some double-sided tape and stick a clear plastic cup of water on top of the camera, then fire the shutter, you'll start a mini-tidal wave in the cup. The shutter itself creates a fair amount of vibration. That's the main reason you have to use such huge, heavy tripods with them. Even when I'm shooting portraits I use mirror lockup. Even if it doesn't really help with whatever shutter speed I'm using, it sure doesn't hurt. The only thing about it with the 10D and cameras like that is if you forget to turn it off.....you'll try to take a hand-held shot, the camera sort of clicks and the finder blacks out....then you think "What the...." and turn it the camera around and look through the lens, touch the shutter button again and get a nice closeup of your own nostrils.

[alexd1983]

I have lurked here for sometime, recently joined and became a member. I have posted in limited discussions but have learned an unbelievable amount from those on this Forum. In all that time I have seen your posts and they generally have an EDGE to them, such as the one above. Is it really needed? What do you gain from it? These posts remind me of "other" discussion groups and boards and are below the general sense of decorum that seems prevalent here. Just curious.

I agree. Some people are just wayyyyy too critical. So critical to the point that it is de-constructive and not constructive. Relax. Get a massage, go on vacation, loosen up.

my 2 cents.

[robertwgross]

I just use mirror lockup any time I think there might be an issue with vibration and I don't have any problems. With the medium format cameras, the vibration is visible.

Do you mean visible in the viewfinder or visible in the resulting image?

Can you distinguish between mirror vibration and shutter vibration?

---Bob Gross---

[G3]

I just use mirror lockup any time I think there might be an issue with vibration and I don't have any problems. With the medium format cameras, the vibration is visible.

Do you mean visible in the viewfinder or visible in the resulting image?

Can you distinguish between mirror vibration and shutter vibration?

---Bob Gross---

Visible in the cup of water if you put it on top of the (medium format) camera. The mirrors of 35mm SLRs and DSLRs don't have the mass that the mirror of a medium format camera has, so they don't create the same level of vibration. The shutter curtains and mechanism of a medium format camera also have more mass and can create approximately the same level of vibration that a 35mm or DSLR mirror can create, if they are not solidly mounted on a good, stable platform. That's why with a medium format camera on a flimsy tripod, you can still end up with vibration blur even if you use mirror lockup. You need a tripod with substantial weight and mass and a good solid head to absorb and damp the vibrations at slower shutter speeds, particularly if you are using a high magnification lens such as macro or telephoto. So...yes you can distinguish between the vibration created by the mirror and that created by the shutter. If you are using mirror lockup on a medium format camera and still have vibration related image problems, then it's a good possibility that the shutter is creating the vibration and the tripod isn't heavy enough to damp it. I've seen people get to the point of giving up on medium format because they were having such problems getting sharp images until they finally bit the bullet and put out the $500.00 to $600.00 for a good tripod and head and it solved their problems. My old Mamiya M645's were terrible. My newer M645 Pro's have better damping, but the vibration is still measurable if it's not absorbed by a heavy tripod and head. I use a Bogen 475 Tripod and 3039 Head with the medium format cameras and a Bogen 3021n tripod and 3047 head with the 35mm SLRs and DSLRs.

[dwc]

I would certainly be happy to trade my Drebel for your D10.


Sendide did not claim to have a D10.

---Bob Gross---

Bob I noticed you have some useful information sometimes. However, a bunch of your posts rip on people for putting D10 instead of the proper 10D, but anyone with the simplest knowledge of cameras knows what they mean, can't you help without ripping?

[G3]

I would certainly be happy to trade my Drebel for your D10.


Sendide did not claim to have a D10.

---Bob Gross---

Bob I noticed you have some useful information sometimes. However, a bunch of your posts rip on people for putting D10 instead of the proper 10D, but anyone with the simplest knowledge of cameras knows what they mean, can't you help without ripping?

Bob is a good guy and is very knowledgeable. He is an experienced photographer. He has helped a lot of newbies on this forum. Sometimes his style is a little abrupt, and may even seem a little harsh at times. I don't really think he means for it to come across that way. And...sometimes folks are a little over-sensitive and get their feelings hurt easily.

The feeling I get is that Bob is a no-nosense kind of guy with a dry, sort of sarcastic sense of humor. Unfortunately, with that combination sometimes it comes across differently on here than was intended and because you can't hear tone of voice and see facial expressions, it is easily taken the wrong way.

I haven't seen Bob say anything that could be taken as intentionally mean or derisive toward anyone personally. I have seen him take to task some things that people post. That's OK, and in fact good. It keeps people honest and causes a second look and analysis to "facts" posted on here sometimes.

Sometimes maybe Bob simply runs out of patience, too. That's understandable. People have a tendency to post questions on here sometimes that either cannot be deciphered as to what they are asking or are so vague as to be unanswerable. We have had people come on here and essentially demand that we put together an impromptu crash course on things like "How to be a weddiing photographer", or ask a question like "What lens should I buy?" with no explanation whatsoever. These folks have invariable failed to do any homework on their own...not even a search of these forums, and in some cases didn't even bother to read stickies of whole threads on the very subject they were asking about. We are interested in answering questions on this forum and helping people. That's why it's so frustrating to get a question that cannot be answered the way it is framed, then have the person get angry with you for trying to qualify that question. A good example is a question that came up while back that was "What is a good forum for pregnant photography?". How the heck are you supposed to answer that? Then when we tried to get the person to be a little more specific, his reply was "women". See how frustrating that can be?

Anyway, I don't think he's trying to hurt anyone's feelings.

[robertwgross]

G3 sounds like he is registering for my fan club.

Often people will fail to find useful information by searching in this forum, and it is primarily because they search under "Canon D10" or some similar phrase. It is such a simple thing. If you see a model number on the front of your camera, then use that. Too many ask questions that simply can't be answered, and it seems wasteful to have to interrogate the questioner to parse the real question.

Nobody asks questions anymore about my Kodak Hawkeye.

---Bob Gross---

[Andy_T]

Often people will fail to find useful information by searching in this forum, and it is primarily because they search under "Canon D10" or some similar phrase. ---Bob Gross---

Naah, they actually search for Cannon D10 ... :lol:

I also have typos now and then, but I try to correct them, as much as possible. If you post a message with a lot of (unnecessary) typos, it might give the appearance that the issue was not important enough for you to take your time.

This might even be perceived as you not valueing the other people's contributions ... and that certainly can be annoying to natures more sensitive than myself. (Not that I would think Bob Gross to fall into that category :lol: )

Best regards,
Andy (assistant board curmudgeon)

[karusel]

Well, hey, I type fast sometimes and don't think much, so I didn't blame users (those bastards) ripping on me for typing D10. :lol: Just relax y'all, smoke some dope or crack or something whatever works for you... :mrgreen:

Disclaimer: for those really sensitive with the lack of sense of humor, I was just kidding, though it may or may not be a good joke, but it was an attempt however, that in no way was ment to insult anyone specifically or in general.

hmm... perhaps I should put this in my signature... :D

[G3]

G3 sounds like he is registering for my fan club.


---Bob Gross---

Fan club? You have a fan club? I thought you were a member of the same club as me...Grumpy Old Photographers Insuring the Sustained Scolding Of Future Fellows. :)

[AzzKicker]

I dare someone to prove this MIRROR LOCKUP stuff.


I'm sure someone has a Rebel and a 10D. Use the same lens and a tripod. Take a picture of the same subject. And set the camera up where the Mirror vibration occurs. I guarantee its not big of a deal and probably not even noticable.

[G3]

I dare someone to prove this MIRROR LOCKUP stuff.


I'm sure someone has a Rebel and a 10D. Use the same lens and a tripod. Take a picture of the same subject. And set the camera up where the Mirror vibration occurs. I guarantee its not big of a deal and probably not even noticable.

Dude...there's no need to prove it. It's already been proven. Why do you think the engineers would go to the trouble to design mirror lockup features if there were no need for it? If you doubt it, either prove it yourself, or go do some searching online.

[AzzKicker]

I dare someone to prove this MIRROR LOCKUP stuff.


I'm sure someone has a Rebel and a 10D. Use the same lens and a tripod. Take a picture of the same subject. And set the camera up where the Mirror vibration occurs. I guarantee its not big of a deal and probably not even noticable.

Dude...there's no need to prove it. It's already been proven. Why do you think the engineers would go to the trouble to design mirror lockup features if there were no need for it? If you doubt it, either prove it yourself, or go do some searching online.

I dont have enough money to own a Rebel and a PRO DSLR :( to prove it myself.

[G3]

I dare someone to prove this MIRROR LOCKUP stuff.


I'm sure someone has a Rebel and a 10D. Use the same lens and a tripod. Take a picture of the same subject. And set the camera up where the Mirror vibration occurs. I guarantee its not big of a deal and probably not even noticable.

Dude...there's no need to prove it. It's already been proven. Why do you think the engineers would go to the trouble to design mirror lockup features if there were no need for it? If you doubt it, either prove it yourself, or go do some searching online.

I dont have enough money to own a Rebel and a PRO DSLR :( to prove it myself.


But you don't need to prove it. Not just one or two, but EVERY manufacturer has produced cameras with mirror lockup for the last 40 years. They simply would not go to the expense and trouble of doing that if there weren't a need for it.

Here's the deal. If you are shooting something like high magnification macro, any vibration is magnified along with the image. Same with telephoto. That's why they invented Image Stabilization on telephoto lenses. On a normal lens, you won't notice it as much as you will with high magnification lenses. That is why you can hand-hold a camera with a normal lens at much slower shutter speeds than you can a telephoto lens. The telephoto lens is magnifying the camera shake along with the image. Mirror-slap induced vibration is exactly the same thing as camera shake from hand-holding a camera.

When the mirror flops up and slaps against the stops, it WILL vibrate the camera. The shutter fires IMMEDIATELY after the mirror flops up (notice the lack of shutter lag?). If the camera is still vibrating when the shutter fires and you are using a high magnification factor, that vibration is going to show up in your image, especially at slower shutter speeds. I know from 30 years of experience that this is true.

The idea behind the mirror lockup is simple. You compose, focus, adjust exposure, lock the mirror up, wait a couple of seconds for the vibrations to completely stop, then fire the shutter. It works, trust me.

[AzzKicker]

Isnt there a little fury lining around the mirror to prevent it from hitting solid surface? I always thought thats what it was for

[G3]

Isnt there a little fury lining around the mirror to prevent it from hitting solid surface? I always thought thats what it was for

Yeah, that little padding is there. It helps to control the noise of the mirror somewhat, but doesn't really do a whole lot for the vibrations caused by the mirror. It helps a little and it does help protect the miror from the shock of constantly flopping up and hitting a solid surface. Try this...take glass half full of water and rap the side of it with a pencil. You will see ripples on the water from the vibration and you will hear a sharp rap of the pencil on the side of the glass. Now tape a little piece of cloth to the side of the glass and rap the glass again on the piece of cloth. You will find that the noise is damped somewhat, but the vibration is still there.

[mjordan]

G3, you really think that manufactors wouldn't put useless stuff on their product years after they are no longer used or needed? Or even if they were never needed or used in the first place? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Bob, nobody asks you about your eyeHawk, uh, I mean the Hawkeye, because this is a Canon forum, not a Kodak forum. :wink:

Mike

[G3]

G3, you really think that manufactors wouldn't put useless stuff on their product years after they are no longer used or needed? Or even if they were never needed or used in the first place? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Bob, nobody asks you about your eyeHawk, uh, I mean the Hawkeye, because this is a Canon forum, not a Kodak forum. :wink:

Mike

Not if they want to remain competitive....at least not something like that. Consumers are not completely stupid, and the manufacturers know that. Also, you'll notice that it's mostly the higher-end cameras that have that feature...mostly cameras that are aimed toward the pro market and the advanced amateur market. Does it make sense that they would put a feature on camera that is useless (and adds cost), then aim it at the consumers that know the most about photography?

[mjordan]

G3, does it makes sense? No. But they still do it. So somebody must think it makes sense (and I'm not talking about the mirror lock up either, I used it on my RB67 all the time although I've never used it on any of my Canon cameras yet).

Mike

[G3]

G3, does it makes sense? No. But they still do it. So somebody must think it makes sense (and I'm not talking about the mirror lock up either, I used it on my RB67 all the time although I've never used it on any of my Canon cameras yet).

Mike

Mike,
I can't think of a feature on my 10D, EOS3, M645 or any other camera that somebody doesn't have a use for. Just because I might not use a feature doesn't mean that nobody has a use for it. I could understand the logic you are using if cameras were custom built for every user, but they aren't. Manufacturers try to make them come as close as possible to meeting the needs of every user in that product's target market. So, they will have lots and lots of features on them, some you may never use but other people will and some you use but some other customers never will.

Can you give me an example of a feature that is useless?

G

[timmyquest]

My comments were not for you but were for Mr. Gross.

If they had been intended for me, then that is what private messages are for.

---Bob Gross---

No, this is far more fun to watch

:twisted:

[robertwgross]

Bob, nobody asks you about your eyeHawk, uh, I mean the Hawkeye, because this is a Canon forum, not a Kodak forum. :wink:


Maybe I can buy an EF-S lens and grind off the back end so that I can mount it on my Hawkeye.

---Bob Gross---

[perfectpixel]

I used mirror lock-up today. Later on when I was putting the camera away I was very alarmed at the new rattling sound the 10D was making when I moved it. Turned out I had left mirror lock-up enabled and that thing was slapping around in there :oops: what a relief!! :D :D