Focusing problems in 10D

[MarcyH]

I just purchased my 10D and have been disappointed with the lack of sharpness my images have! I have the camera set in the large/fine mode for jpg, and I usually shoot 100 ASA, 1/125, f 11 or f16, on a tripod, with studio flash! Every portrait I take still is soft, esp in the eyes! I've been trying to use the different focusing squares to see if one works better than another (back focusing etc). I use a Canon zoom L series lens. I get excellent results on film with this lens. Does any one use the sharpening in camera or do I have to sharpen every image in PS? Do the 10Ds all have this problem or is it just me? Any tips on how to improve or correct the sharpness? I may just return the 10D and go for something else!

[Sendide]

if I were you , since the camera is still new, go for some tests to determine if it's not front or back focusing then decide to return it....
although I don't think it would be the case taking in consideration the aperture you shoot at.
for sa professional result (as you expect it to be), most of digital photographers post improve their pictures in darkroom.
I'm a beginner in Digital myself, I have to admit that photoshop CS dramatically improves the pictures quality at ALL times.
hope this helps
regards
Khalid

[RichardtheSane]

SHow us examples....
a 100% crop or two on the area of the image you focused on would be ideal. THen we can advise you if you have a problem or not.

Also what lens are you using?

[MarcyH]

Thanks for the quick reply! I did try to do some crude tests to see if there is a back/front focusing problem. I shot a test target in auto focus and then manually turned my focus ring to the left a bit and shot. I then auto refocused and then manually turned my focus ring to the right a bit and shot. I then compared the 3 images and of course the autofocus one was dead on. However when I tried to shoot people in my studio, I cant seem to tell what the camera is focusing on! Nothing to me seems dead sharp. Only when I go into PS and unsharp mask. I didnt want to buy a camera where every image needs post sharpening! Have you seen any links for doing a good focus test procedure esp for the 10D? Im still considering tossing this camera! But I will keep trying different things...

[MarcyH]

Richard, I am using the canon EF 50-200mm L zoom lens. Its an older lens but I used to love it! Here is a link to two cropped test images (not sure how to bring them into the forum). I didnt do any alterations to the imgs except the crop:

http://www.marcyhermansonphoto.com/test/IMG_1668_crop.jpg
http://www.marcyhermansonphoto.com/test/IMG_1669_crop.jpg

I hope this works...what do you think? Is it the lens, camera, or is this as good as it gets??

[RichardtheSane]

I've got to admit my forst impression there is it looks soft - and not out of focus soft either...
What does anyone else think?

[Olegis]

Richard, I am using the canon EF 50-200mm L zoom lens. Its an older lens but I used to love it!

Marcy, did you try to play with another lens ? You may try to borrow a lens from a friend or to try another one in your local photo store.

[Pekka]

Thanks for the quick reply! I did try to do some crude tests to see if there is a back/front focusing problem. I shot a test target in auto focus and then manually turned my focus ring to the left a bit and shot. I then auto refocused and then manually turned my focus ring to the right a bit and shot. I then compared the 3 images and of course the autofocus one was dead on. However when I tried to shoot people in my studio, I cant seem to tell what the camera is focusing on! Nothing to me seems dead sharp. Only when I go into PS and unsharp mask. I didnt want to buy a camera where every image needs post sharpening!

All EOS digital cameras require post processing. If you shoot JPEG you define a certain amount of sharpening in camera, and then sharpen again in Photoshop if needed. If you shoot RAW, you set RAW converter to sharpen the output, or set sharpening to zero and then sharpen in Photoshop. RAW converters like Capture One have very fluent workflow for processing vast number of images easily. In Photoshop you can create actions for batch jobs.

Also note that with digital EOS you view your images on large screen, which is equivalent of viewing you photos with a loupe or a large enlargement very close. To get tack sharp results you need to get more shutter speed.

Using f16 (or even f11) means you are not using your lense's sharpest aperture and this contributes also to softness.

With digital you are lab. For some this feels like total freedom and for some total annoyance. I'm in the first group :)

[jboyd]

I think the photos look like all, ok most, of mine. My camera is in NJ now. I hope it comes back better!

Jackie

[Sendide]

pekka wrote
:Using f16 (or even f11) means you are not using your lense's sharpest aperture and this contributes also to softness.

I'm suprised to hear this, according to this, how can someone then have a DOF and sharp image at the same time, which we've seen quite often? I mean other than aritificial DOF in PS CS.
what is then in your opinion the shapest aperture for a lens? its max?
regards
Khalid

[bob harris]

I see the same problems with my 10D.
If you shoot in program mode you can set the parameters to sharpen the image in the camera.
Also what I have learned is that you have to be very concious of shutter speed, especially with long lenses. The temptation to zoom in on a subject tends to create the need for the faster shutter speed.
A tripod helps quite a bit.
I have not been very impressed with the unsharp mask function of my Photo Impact software to rectify these problems.

[Tom W]

MarcyH, I took the liberty of copying your image and applying some sharpening in Photoshop Elements. Here's the original:

http://www.marcyhermansonphoto.com/test/IMG_1669_crop.jpg

And the sharpened version:

http://home.comcast.net/~trwilk3/Images/IMG_1669_crop_USM.jpg

As you can see, a little sharpening helps a great deal. As Pekka points out, you do generally need a little post-processing with most DSLR's. This is to avoid oversharpening in the camera which is much harder to undo.

As for the ideal aperture, for most lenses, ultimate resolution will be around f/8, give or take a stop. That's kind-of a generalization, but as you stop down, you begin to have issues with refraction as the light passes by the aperture. This is balanced somewhat by a deeper depth of field. At any rate, diffraction problems are probably not as big an issue as focus issues can be, though I think your focus is OK.

As has been mentioned earlier, you might want to try a different lens to see if that doesn't help a bit.

[dtsang831]

The default Canon 10d setting will give you a soft image. The reason is that you want a "pure" unaltered digital negative with good exposure. Also, you might need different stages of sharpening. (i.e. for Web, Prints etc.) Details of the all digital images are blurred by the camera's low-pass filter and sharpening in camera or during post-processing is a must! Your PC is your darkroom! If you hate PS work then you should consider switch back to Point & Shoot cameras.

Check out this article:

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/digitalphotography/learnmore/fixit/sharpening.asp

[MarcyH]

Thanks for all of your input. I will try to shoot with different lenses and different shutter/aperture combos to see if I get better results. It sounds like the camera is probably ok and post processing is a must. I probably want to keep my camera sharpness setting at 0 and do it in PS. The link for the sharpening tips is great! Has anyone discovered a great portrait lens that really makes a difference when shooting with the 10D (something affordable)??? How about those image stabilization lenses- do they help?

[roppelt]

I use the 50.mm 1.8 mark1 it equals about 85.mm with the 1.6 mag factor on the 10D

[Tom W]

Thanks for all of your input. I will try to shoot with different lenses and different shutter/aperture combos to see if I get better results. It sounds like the camera is probably ok and post processing is a must. I probably want to keep my camera sharpness setting at 0 and do it in PS. The link for the sharpening tips is great! Has anyone discovered a great portrait lens that really makes a difference when shooting with the 10D (something affordable)??? How about those image stabilization lenses- do they help?

Yes, post-processing is necessary, though you can probably mass-process a lot of it. I'm not as good at that side of things as others, since I don't do commercial photography at this time. I think your camera is fine, although the lens may be a "little" bit soft - though not much, and it certainly could be helpful in some portriats if the image is a little soft.

As someone else mentioned, on the 10D, the 50 mm f/1.4 or f/1.8 are both pretty good for portriats, but the 85 mm f/1.8 is probably even better if you have the room to use it (it is a little longer). There's also an unaffordable 85 mm f/1.2L lens that is really designed for portriats, but it is very expensive. As well, there's the 100 mm f/2.0 that is reasonably priced and is known to be pretty sharp.

What focal length do you generally use for portriats with your present lens? That would be the length you would want to look for in a prime lens.

[darrenb]

Thanks for all of your input. I will try to shoot with different lenses and different shutter/aperture combos to see if I get better results. It sounds like the camera is probably ok and post processing is a must. I probably want to keep my camera sharpness setting at 0 and do it in PS. The link for the sharpening tips is great! Has anyone discovered a great portrait lens that really makes a difference when shooting with the 10D (something affordable)??? How about those image stabilization lenses- do they help?


Marcy

Re: Portrait lens, the two photos I posted athttp://photography-on-the.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34833 used the 50mm F1.8 MkII, but I was quite close. I find my 28-135 IS works well (but it's not L glas), that said I did some comparrisons recently between a hired 70-200 F2.8L (non IS) and have to say the 28-135 faired quite well.

As far as IS is concerned I took this photo last October in NY's Rockerfella Centre, handheld, IS on Sky completely black, Seems to work for me, I think??http://homepage.ntlworld.com/d.bardsley/105_0558.jpg

Darren

[nosquare2003]

50/1.8 MKII -- cheap but good enough for you to do comparison.

[kahfluie]

I remember when I fgirst got my 10D... thought the same thing about softness. I was expecting sharpness right off the bat. Then I came here and learned more than I expected... and that being that digital SLR's need to be processed. It was annoying at first, mostly because I didnt understand... but now... I feel like I can manipulate any photo I shoot to look the way I want it too. Now, I'm happy with how my photos come out. Any bad shots are a result of me not doing something right... or my setting something wrong on the camera, etc.

Cheers,

[droosan]

Everybody here is right. Don't let the camera sharpen. After you have cropped and sized the picture according to whatever you are going to do with it, then sharpen. The amount you sharpen is affected by the resolution of your presentation--very different if you are printing on a hi-rez printer vs putting the picture on a web page.

[abel]

i have a 10d and a 50mm lens, just got it yesterday. ive always heard the images were soft so i downloaded Fred Mirandas Intellisharpen program ($20) for photoshop which will give u 14 levels of sharpening

top image is straight from camera. lower one is after the itellisharpen software ran at a level 8

http://www.nitrocross.com/TEMP/DRAGON.JPG

link to the software: http://www.fredmiranda.com/software/

[darrenb]

Everybody here is right. Don't let the camera sharpen. After you have cropped and sized the picture according to whatever you are going to do with it, then sharpen. The amount you sharpen is affected by the resolution of your presentation--very different if you are printing on a hi-rez printer vs putting the picture on a web page.

Droosan I'm interested in your comment re: sharpening being dependent upon what it's final destination is - i.e. print or web, please can you expand, are you suggesting not to sharpen as much if printing to a good quality phot printer :?:

[darrenb]

sorry, meant to say photo printer and I've only had one beer :shock:

[sgregory]

Re: Focusing problems in 10D.

When I first purchased the 10D my pic were soft and I did feel it was not focusing on the proper spot with any Canon L glass I tried.
I did the proper testing with manual and autofocus and did find the camera was slightly off.
I took it back to the dealer with a written explanation, they sent it to Canon, back in 1.5 weeks and was perfect. So something had to be off. Never an explanation though from Canon. But this was almost a year ago and the camera has been giving me wonderfully sharp pictures right out of the box with many times no sharpening required in Photoshop CS after the fact.

Scott Gregory

[droosan]

Everybody here is right. Don't let the camera sharpen. After you have cropped and sized the picture according to whatever you are going to do with it, then sharpen. The amount you sharpen is affected by the resolution of your presentation--very different if you are printing on a hi-rez printer vs putting the picture on a web page.

Droosan I'm interested in your comment re: sharpening being dependent upon what it's final destination is - i.e. print or web, please can you expand, are you suggesting not to sharpen as much if printing to a good quality phot printer :?:

That's not really what I meant. (However that may be true for some printers) What I really meant is this: If, in your workflow you resize pictures, sharpen AFTER you resize.

For example: A picture comes out of my 10D 3072 pixels across. I rarely use it that way. If I put it on a website, I may reduce it to 512 pixels across. As an inset on a brochure maybe 1000 pixels. If I email it to Grandma to print on her $100 inkjet, 6MP is way overkill. I'll probably reduce it to 1440 across. After I've got the picture the size I want to present it at, then I sharpen.) The 3072 original that I store on CD for future use, is unsharpened.

Just avoid the workflow of sharpen, resize, sharpen, since that will reduce the quality of your output. Sharpening should be the last thing you do before you output whatever your output is.