-=Official=- EOS 10D/1Ds MkII/Photokina Rumor Thread.

[Denmark]

*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
EDIT BY MODERATOR
We can't have two new threads a day.. :roll:

Any other threads on the subject of rumored 10D or 1Ds replacement will be deleted :P

so please,.
Just add you Rumors or questions here. :mrgreen:

Earlier 1Ds speculation can be found HERE (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=26953&highlight=)

*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*




Is there somebody who has some idea of :!: when there will be a new EOS D10?

[CoolToolGuy]

The most popular guess is Photokina, which happens in October. There have been rumors that it could happen sooner, but nothing substantial.

Hope this helps

[SDK^]

Not another '10D MKII" thread http://www.sdk2003.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/banghead.gif

[TomC]

a new 10D??? Any rumors of what it will be like?? I'm thinking of buying one in July... should I wait??

[CoolToolGuy]

Not another '10D MKII" thread http://www.sdk2003.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/banghead.gif

Get ready - it may go on until October... :shock:

[SDK^]

Wait for what ??!?! : Canon announces a replacement for the 10D to be released in another 6 months from now ..... ?

Canon officially announced the 1DMkII on 29th January 2004 with definite rumours circulating well before. Only in the last weeks have you been able to buy one with pretty much all of them going to people that Pre-ordered.

There aren’t even any certain rumours yet on a 10D replacement so you’re looking at waiting at least another 6 months. Even if a replacement does comes along and you feel the new features are un-missable then you can still sell your Canon 10D for a respectable price : £800-900.

Why wait ?!?!

[ShootTechPan]

Yeah waiting six months or more for a camera could suck if you don't have one. What are you using now? If you have something like a D60 I would definitely wait.

If you don't have a suitable camera, the Digital Rebel with the new supercharged 10D feature firmware wouldn't be a bad bet to tide you over for a year. It seems to have most of the 10D features for about $500 less (Body is now $829 new... pass on the kit lens). The buffer is still only 4 shots, of course, along with the silver body if cosmetics are a priority. You could get a solid lens with the cash you save, and that investment will carry through to your next few bodies.

http://www.bahneman.com/liem/photos/tricks/digital-rebel-tricks.html
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=33864&postdays=0&postorder=asc&st art=0

I'm personally hoping for a 1Ds Mk II announcement at Photokina, but there's no question that Canon needs to improve the 10D pronto to compete with Nikon.

[CoolToolGuy]

Wait for what ??!?! : Canon announces a replacement for the 10D to be released in another 6 months from now ..... ?

Canon officially announced the 1DMkII on 29th January 2004 with definite rumours circulating well before. Only in the last weeks have you been able to buy one with pretty much all of them going to people that Pre-ordered.

There aren’t even any certain rumours yet on a 10D replacement so you’re looking at waiting at least another 6 months. Even if a replacement does comes along and you feel the new features are un-missable then you can still sell your Canon 10D for a respectable price : £800-900.

Why wait ?!?!

I wasn't paying close attention to DSLRs when the 10D was introduced (more than a year ago), so I don't know what the lead time was. The 1D MKII is a professional camera, and while I'm sure Canon includes serious prosumers in their considerations, it is engineered and marketed primarily to professionals. Perhaps the lead time on it was not excessive. In the case of the Drebel, the lead time was approximately 1 month from announcement to availability.

Now, let us review the recent marketing tactics of Ni*on, who announced, just in time for the Christmas rush, that they were introducing an entry-level DSLR - BUT - it wouldn't be available until spring. If that's not panic marketing, I don't know what is.

I would wager a little (maybe more than a little) that whatever you hear about from Canon at Photokina or elsewhere will be in abundant supply by mid-November. I would not be surprised to see an announcement tied into the Olympics in the next month or so.

[CyberDyneSystems]

I agree,.. if the Rebel is any indicator it's a fall anouncement for a "consumer" DSLR whith shipping units out in time for the Christmas season (ie,. as CTG says.. November)

[Tom W]

I wasn't paying close attention to DSLRs when the 10D was introduced (more than a year ago), so I don't know what the lead time was. The 1D MKII is a professional camera, and while I'm sure Canon includes serious prosumers in their considerations, it is engineered and marketed primarily to professionals. Perhaps the lead time on it was not excessive. In the case of the Drebel, the lead time was approximately 1 month from announcement to availability.

Now, let us review the recent marketing tactics of Ni*on, who announced, just in time for the Christmas rush, that they were introducing an entry-level DSLR - BUT - it wouldn't be available until spring. If that's not panic marketing, I don't know what is.

I would wager a little (maybe more than a little) that whatever you hear about from Canon at Photokina or elsewhere will be in abundant supply by mid-November. I would not be surprised to see an announcement tied into the Olympics in the next month or so.

Canon seems to blow the competition away with each new digital SLR. The 10D was unmatched for a year until the D70 (and may still be unmatched), and the 1D Mk II made a quantum leap with its arrival as well. I think that the next move by Canon will also be big.

Figure on a new Rebel that improves on the present one (and maybe even 2 rebel models) and brings a lower price and more features. 6.3 sensors will prevail at this price level.

Expect a 10D replacement with the same upgrades as the Elan 7N - improved focus and ETTL-2. I think the new 10D will have a larger image sensor as well, but will sell around $2000. The $750 to $1250 price range will be handled by the two new Rebel models.

Flashes - new models with E-TTL, and old-style photodiode-sensor auto mode, at least at the higher end.

Lenses - improvements to a couple of the older primes at the wide end, maybe a 12 mm ultrawide. Also, look for a 24-105 f/3.5-4.5 USM or something on that order to replace both the 24-85 and the 28-105. This will give some wide availability to the 1.6 sensors and some added length as well.

[Guillermo Freige]

I think Canon will fill the gap between the 10D and the 1D MkII with an intermediate priced model, and will replace the 10D and 300D (eventually) with even cheaper but more feature rich ones. With the 300D (Drebel) Canon has started to match the "consumer" model numbers and names with their film counterpart (as in the 1D/1Ds case), so my predictions are:

EOS 3D (in photokina)
Match to the film model EOS 3 (45 AF points, ECF, semi pro model) with E-TTL II, a 8MP 1.3x sensor but with a smaller burst and FPS, similar to the 10D or slightly better (3fps/12 frames maybe), at around $2000-2500. Same latitude and ISO noise than the 1DMKII

EOS 30/33D (Elan 7D/7DE) (maybe feb/05)
The 10D replacement, with the same features of the EOS 30v/Elan 7n (E-TTL II, ECF), probably with an improved 6MP 1.6x sensor with a better ISO noise relation and latitude (similar to the 1D MkII), at $1200 or less. Probably this will also force a price reduction to the 300D.

EOS 3000D (end of 2005?)
The $500 DSLR? Maybe a dream, but if Canon has any plans to abandon film DSLRs cameras someday they must fill this niche.

Just my educated guess, mostly based in my hoped models, but I think it can happend. I want my eye-controlled AF DSLR!!!! :)

[Saturn]

Howdy:

When we purchased our D60, going on two years ago, the thing was backordered forever, and we ended up getting it out of Canada.

If you're looking at an October release of anything, I would say that yo might see it by Easter of '05. Personally, if you have the need, I wouldn't wait for any new announcement. By the time it's in the stores, Canon will announce something newer!

Thanks.

Saturn

[CoolToolGuy]

Rather than start a new thread, I'll post this here - an announcement of a $900 DSLR coming from Pentax at Photokina:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0406/04060601pentax900dslr.asp

Pure speculation, but a new Canon DSLR below the Drebel could knock the wind out of their sails.

Have Fun,

[dn7elson]

Pure speculation, but a new Canon DSLR below the Drebel could knock the wind out of their sails.

Actually, a new 10D at a price between the current 10D and the DRebel would likely push the DRebel price lower and allow for the introduction of a new product to encourage DRebel moveups as well as 10D replacements. This would leave room for a new product above the 10D replacement for 10D moveups that can't/won't make the MkII move. Just my marketing guess...but since this is all about speculation :D

[CoolToolGuy]

Pure speculation, but a new Canon DSLR below the Drebel could knock the wind out of their sails.

Actually, a new 10D at a price between the current 10D and the DRebel would likely push the DRebel price lower and allow for the introduction of a new product to encourage DRebel moveups as well as 10D replacements. This would leave room for a new product above the 10D replacement for 10D moveups that can't/won't make the MkII move. Just my marketing guess...but since this is all about speculation :D

I don't think Canon would lower the price of any existing product except to close it out. More likely they would make a change or two, wrap it in a new skin and give it a new model name.

I do see the potential for the price of the 10D replacement to move up a bit, and two consumer DSLRs below it. Time will tell.

[dn7elson]

I don't think Canon would lower the price of any existing product except to close it out. More likely they would make a change or two, wrap it in a new skin and give it a new model name.

Seems like the perfect competition beater to me. There is no reason that Canon could not lower the price on a high tech, electronic device that is more than 12 months into its production cycle...it's more than 1/2 way to being obsolete. What better way to start a new generation of Canon Digital SLR users, not to mention all the glass that they will sell as well.

If I was marketing I would sure look at maximizing the crop of new users while moving up the existing users. Not only do the users win, but you land a nice combination blow to your competition to boot :lol:

[Andy_T]

So my best guess is:

DRebel:
No new model. Black Version also for US/Europe. Maybe new firmware enabling some of the 10D functions as soon as the new 10D model is available (that is significantly different from the DRebel).

Moderate price cuts as currently done by B&H and others, bringing the DRebel (Body) down to about 800-750$ ... no further need to go any lower or introduce a second product in that segment.
Reason: Why should they give away money by offering a 500$ version? Won't be any cheaper to produce. The 'attractive customers' that are likely to invest in lenses afterwards will also buy it for $ 750.


10DII:
My best guess is a 10D with 8 MP, but keeping the 1.6 multiplier. That's the de facto standard in 'prosumer' DSLR's with the 1.3 reserved for the 1D and the 1.0 for the 1Ds. In addition, sensor size is the major cost driver in DSLR's.
Increase FPS and buffer size so it is well ahead of the D70. Faster CF write times, SD as option. Improve focus performance (45 field focus array / Eyefocus?) TTL-II flash system.

Pricing like current model or slightly higher in order to capture the 'high margin' part of the market as well as the entry level with the DRebel.

So the interesting question is ... when will this product hit the market? Would be nice for Christmas... :lol:

Best regards,
Andy

[tony723]

So my best guess is:

10DII:
My best guess is a 10D with 8 MP, but keeping the 1.6 multiplier. That's the de facto standard in 'prosumer' DSLR's with the 1.3 reserved for the 1D and the 1.0 for the 1Ds. In addition, sensor size is the major cost driver in DSLR's.
Increase FPS and buffer size so it is well ahead of the D70. Faster CF write times, SD as option. Improve focus performance (45 field focus array / Eyefocus?) TTL-II flash system.

Pricing like current model or slightly higher in order to capture the 'high margin' part of the market as well as the entry level with the DRebel.

So the interesting question is ... when will this product hit the market? Would be nice for Christmas... :lol:

Best regards,
Andy

Yes, I have similar guess on 10D M2. However I think the targe would not be D70 but D2H. So more improvement should be expected other than pixel size, CF write speed, ETTL2, etc. The most preferred improvement is 45 point focus system to improve the well known focus issues.

What a pity 300D will become a legacy model.

[nosquare2003]

It seems that Canon has decided for 3 lines: 1.0x, 1.3x and 1.6x. And there is a need for super wide zoom 12-24mm.

How about 400/5.6 IS?

[D60DIETER]

I can not agree with your oppinions. The crop will be 1,3 for the 10D MK II ( or how this thing will be named). Canon will not invent another 8,2 MP sensor with higher density (meaning smaler pixels). This is very costly and it is also a bigger problem concerning the resolution of the lenses.

As mentioned there is a need for a 12-24mm lens. If canon had thought the same way, there would be a lens like this. But they have a 18-55, a 17-40, a 16-35L. That all leeds to their goal having a crop of 1,3 or 1,0 in the future.

Dieter

[CoolToolGuy]

I think the 1.6 crop factor is going to continue for the consumer market. The competition is using it (Olympus has gone even further), and one advantage of the 1.6 factor is the extra reach it gives to telephoto lenses. For the consumer market, this makes sense, since the first additional lens that most folks buy after getting an SLR (or DSLR) is a telephoto or tele-zoom. If Canon switched to the 1.3 factor at the Drebel level, many folks might say "The Ni*on 75-300 is more powerful than the Canon" and be drawn away from Canon. Again, Olympus is already marching down that path, saying in their marketing that their 300mm acts like a 600mm.

That said, I think that Canon needs more coverage in the sub-20mm range, so that those folks with 1.6 cameras have choices in the very-wide-angle (not necessarily ultra-wide-angle) arena.

I think there is room for more than 1 model with the 1.3 crop factor in Canon's range. I hope they announce one at Photokina. But I also think there is room for more than 1 model with 1.6 - an intro model and a prosumer model.

D60DIETER mentions the cost of developing a new sensor in the 8.2 range, but I don't think that is an issue, as the consumer-level cameras will sell in high enough volume to pay for that. Canon sells a lot more Drebels than they do 1D MkIIs.

Time will tell.

Have Fun,

[Mthorpe_Davies]

Dieter I thought you were in the know about the 10D replacement and had already put down a deposit. Wasn't the new one supposed to be instore this month according to your inside knowledge?

I think the 10D will remain the same but with the addition of ETTL2 and maybe a larger buffer. Spot metering would be nice but canon aren't nice to those who can't afford 1 series bodies.

I do think and 3D will turn up one day. The Eos 3 didn't kill sales of the 1v, it created a new market, the pro's stuck with the 1v but the serious amateur went with the 3. Nikon did the same thing with the F5 and F100.

[saikidesign]

I have my 10D for almost 4 months now and I just went over 6,000 photos. Now I heard rumors that the shutter of 10D last only (if I'm lucky) 20,000 to 25,000 photos... Is that true??? :cry:

[EBOS]

I have my 10D for almost 4 months now and I just went over 6,000 photos. Now I heard rumors that the shutter of 10D last only (if I'm lucky) 20,000 to 25,000 photos... Is that true??? :cry:

Absolutely NOT !!! It should be much more. If I am not mistaking it was between 150,000 and 200,000 photos ...

Greetz,

EBOS

[timmyquest]

This thread is in violation of forum rules....


....er wait.. that's not here is it?

Really,.. the 1Ds has no competition. I would not expect a replacement for another year.

In fact,. I would wager that it's replacement will occur exactly 2-6 months AFTER any real competiton is released...

TEE HEE

[PacAce]

I have my 10D for almost 4 months now and I just went over 6,000 photos. Now I heard rumors that the shutter of 10D last only (if I'm lucky) 20,000 to 25,000 photos... Is that true??? :cry:

Absolutely NOT !!! It should be much more. If I am not mistaking it was between 150,000 and 200,000 photos ...

Greetz,

EBOS

Actually you're looking more at around 50,000 shutter releases for the 10D. The 150,000 /200,000 is for the 1D/1DmkII.

[roanjohn]

Whatever the replacement for the 10D is, it has better be leaps and bounds beyond the Nikon D70. SO......faster start-up time, bigger buffer etc. etc....

I don't really care about a new body..........I want a true wide angle lens like a 12-24 f4 L.................or a 100-300 f4 L with or without IS.

Ro1

[CoolToolGuy]

I know Canon has rebates in the USA frequently, but I am wondering if the large number of lenses in the current rebate program is a hint that many of them are going to be upgraded or replaced in the Photokina announcements.

Any thoughts?

Have Fun,

[ron chappel]

I don't think any new models will be released for quite some time-allthough i'm wondering if or when they'll make a DSLR with all of the EOS 3' features.

I think for the moment they'll only upgrade the 10D

Very likely at the same price point -
Allmost certainly they'll give it more features for worthwhile value over the 300D
and upgrade it with the latest tech-better dynamic range and lower noise,etc

a bigger chip? this is the BIG question.I really wonder if they'll bother
It sure will give a strong hint as to the future sizes od DSLR sensors

[AzzKicker]

All I know is that it better have the new ETTL-II. If not I'll just let the 10D price drop and get that instead.

[1photopro]

Local camera store today indicated the Canon sales rep said to move out their stock of 10D as an 8 MP version is due to be announced in August.

I am ususally the one to give them the scoop!

[D60DIETER]

Latest info!

It will take some more weeks until canon is presenting the 80D, D80 or 10D MKII. Technical data like described.

In germany my dealer has gotten the last chance of ordering 10D s.

Dieter

[Pekka]

I can not agree with your oppinions. The crop will be 1,3 for the 10D MK II ( or how this thing will be named). Canon will not invent another 8,2 MP sensor with higher density (meaning smaler pixels). This is very costly and it is also a bigger problem concerning the resolution of the lenses.

Think of this from marketing viewpoint. They have to have some things to separate cameras targeted for pros and cameras targeted for semipro's and amateurs. They will not do models which overlap too much in features and capabilities in same year. 1.6X is an easy way to do that separation, and when they fix 8 or 9 mp in that sensor size and add new Digic II they will get less noise than 10D but not equal to Mark II. The new 10D will surely have also E-TTL 2 and faster speed (about 5 fps), but nothing revolutionary. And still no weather sealing. They HAVE to push price down to compete with 8mp P&S's and get fresh new people to buy EOS lenses, a business which is cheaper and longer lasting than making new cameras. An 1.6X sensor is also part of this strategy, because it is very unlikely non-pro people would care buy very expensive 300mm lenses for their digital EOS, when they see P&S can reach 300 and more, now with 1.6X they can get 70-200 which is just withing their budget and use it as a nice 320mm.

Using full resolution of lenses and other technical issues can not really be a concern - after all the 10D MkII is targeted to non-pro's.

[D60DIETER]

Hi Pekka,

I agree with you, that canon will make sure that there is a difference between th 1DMKII and the 10DMKII. But this will not be the sensor and the crop factor.

As there is:

- higher speed
- bigger buffer
- bigger battery for more shots
- sealed housing
- 2 LCD s
- bigger monitor
- no inbuilt flash
- inbuilt highformat battery grip
- Cf and SD Card
- wireless option
- shutter for 200.000 exp.
and pro support.

Dieter

Last Info about pricing: should be around 1800.- €

[Tom W]

Hi Pekka,

I agree with you, that canon will make sure that there is a difference between th 1DMKII and the 10DMKII. But this will not be the sensor and the crop factor.

As there is:

- higher speed
- bigger buffer
- bigger battery for more shots
- sealed housing
- 2 LCD s
- bigger monitor
- no inbuilt flash
- inbuilt highformat battery grip
- Cf and SD Card
- wireless option
- shutter for 200.000 exp.
and pro support.

Dieter

Last Info about pricing: should be around 1800.- €

All I can say is that I hope you're right. What's the exchange rate between Euro and US$$ right now? ;)

[D60DIETER]

1,20 US$ is 1,00€

But we have sales tax which is 16%. So it should come out by 1850.- US$

Dieter

[daaaveman]

I know Canon has rebates in the USA frequently, but I am wondering if the large number of lenses in the current rebate program is a hint that many of them are going to be upgraded or replaced in the Photokina announcements.


What are the thoughts on here about an upgrade to the 100-400L. New IS system?, possibly lose the push-pull? (although I would doubt that). Just wondered what improvements you would like to see made to this lens.....

[Tom W]

I know Canon has rebates in the USA frequently, but I am wondering if the large number of lenses in the current rebate program is a hint that many of them are going to be upgraded or replaced in the Photokina announcements.


What are the thoughts on here about an upgrade to the 100-400L. New IS system?, possibly lose the push-pull? (although I would doubt that). Just wondered what improvements you would like to see made to this lens.....

I haven't a clue as far as inside information, but I will say that this lens is a winner, both in performance and in sales. I don't think Canon needs to mess with a good thing.

If there's a hole that needs plugging in Canon's lens lineup right now, its at the wide end (plus maybe a lighter, less costly f/4 version of the mid-range 24-70L zoom).

[CoolToolGuy]

I know Canon has rebates in the USA frequently, but I am wondering if the large number of lenses in the current rebate program is a hint that many of them are going to be upgraded or replaced in the Photokina announcements.


What are the thoughts on here about an upgrade to the 100-400L. New IS system?, possibly lose the push-pull? (although I would doubt that). Just wondered what improvements you would like to see made to this lens.....

I have used it, and I liked it - but it was not long enough for me. As a result, I am considering the new (supposedly available by February 2004, but not in the stores yet :? ) Tamron 200-500. If Canon made the 100-400 L into a xxx-500 L, I'd probably buy one after trying it out. Losing the push-pull would be a bonus, but not a requirement. Making it a little bit faster as well (unlikely) would probably result in me camping out on B&H's doorstep waiting for the first one. :roll:

I agree that Canon is light in the ultra-wide prime and zoom market. Some "just less than 'L'" lenses in this range would help. 8)

Have Fun,

[stevens]

Dieter,
do you know anything about the AF system of the 10D Mark2 ?
And what about the body anyway?Is it the same 10D body as the current one? Does the bigger sensor fit in there?

Stevens

[Tom W]

I have used it, and I liked it - but it was not long enough for me. As a result, I am considering the new (supposedly available by February 2004, but not in the stores yet :? ) Tamron 200-500. If Canon made the 100-400 L into a xxx-500 L, I'd probably buy one after trying it out. Losing the push-pull would be a bonus, but not a requirement. Making it a little bit faster as well (unlikely) would probably result in me camping out on B&H's doorstep waiting for the first one. :roll:

I'd settle for having the 10D-range bodies retain autofocus at f/8 so that I can still AF with a 1.4X tc on the 100-400. Other than that, its a very sweet lens IMHO.

I agree that Canon is light in the ultra-wide prime and zoom market. Some "just less than 'L'" lenses in this range would help. 8)

Have Fun,

Yes, I'd like to see them stretch out that 20-35/3.5-4.5 a few mm at each end. Plus, a 20 mm/1.8 or 2.0 would be a good complement to the 24-70L on a 1.3X or 1.6X sensor. A superwide 12 mm prime or zoom would also be great if Canon intends to stick with the 1.6X sensor. I think Canon scored very well with the 17-40L, but there is a gap down there. Sigma has 3 pretty good reasonably priced primes all at f/1.8 - the 20, 24, and 28 mm. Canon can only match the 28, at least as far as aperture is concerned. I haven't seen any direct comparison among that focal length.

I'm guessing that Canon will introduce some kind of lens or two this fall - if its as successful as the 17-40L, then that is a good thing.

[Mthorpe_Davies]

My thoughts.

When 35mm was king Canon didn't kill sales of the Eos 1 series when the Eos 3 was launched, the pros still kept using the 1 and serious amatuers bought the 3 as well as some pros that didn't need some of the 1 series functions. Now what I think will happen will be an upgraded 10D with 8mp, ETTL2 and a bigger buffer to match the nikon D70, the pros will still get the 1d Mk11 especially the sports guys because they want the speed and weather sealing.

Along way down the track the 1Ds and 1D will merge to become one model with perhaps selective resolution, i.e. hi MP slower speed mode and faster speed lower MP, there is no need for two 1 series bodies.

[Calvillo]

I can not agree with your oppinions. The crop will be 1,3 for the 10D MK II ( or how this thing will be named). Canon will not invent another 8,2 MP sensor with higher density (meaning smaler pixels). This is very costly and it is also a bigger problem concerning the resolution of the lenses.

Think of this from marketing viewpoint. They have to have some things to separate cameras targeted for pros and cameras targeted for semipro's and amateurs. They will not do models which overlap too much in features and capabilities in same year. 1.6X is an easy way to do that separation, and when they fix 8 or 9 mp in that sensor size and add new Digic II they will get less noise than 10D but not equal to Mark II. The new 10D will surely have also E-TTL 2 and faster speed (about 5 fps), but nothing revolutionary. And still no weather sealing. They HAVE to push price down to compete with 8mp P&S's and get fresh new people to buy EOS lenses, a business which is cheaper and longer lasting than making new cameras. An 1.6X sensor is also part of this strategy, because it is very unlikely non-pro people would care buy very expensive 300mm lenses for their digital EOS, when they see P&S can reach 300 and more, now with 1.6X they can get 70-200 which is just withing their budget and use it as a nice 320mm.

Using full resolution of lenses and other technical issues can not really be a concern - after all the 10D MkII is targeted to non-pro's.

Your view works except for the 1.6x crop. If you increase the number of photo sites on the same size sensor by 33% (6 to 8 million) they would have to get smaller, which will cause noise problems. I'd have to agree with Dieter, there are plenty of differences between an 8 mg 10DII with ETTL-II and Digic II, and a 1DII.

On the otherhand, if you have 8mg P&S's, now with L glass & Digic II it would seem you need to create space between this camera and a 10DII. I would guess you did this by decreasing the crop from 1.6 to 1.3.

Of course Canon could greatly disappoint us regarding this.

[Pekka]

If you increase the number of photo sites on the same size sensor by 33% (6 to 8 million) they would have to get smaller, which will cause noise problems.

It did not create any noise problems from 1D to 1D Mark II, right? And that was twice the pixels (albeit from CCD to CMOS), the new 10D won't most likely will have that much more.

On the otherhand, if you have 8mg P&S's, now with L glass & Digic II it would seem you need to create space between this camera and a 10DII. I would guess you did this by decreasing the crop from 1.6 to 1.3.

Of course Canon could greatly disappoint us regarding this.

Better to set your expectations low and you will not be disappointed, and then again you could have some happy suprises, too :)

[Tom W]

Doesn't the 10D already possess the highest pixel density of the DSLRs (including the 1D-II)? I'm wondering if raising that density further will be counter-productive to producing a lower-noise image.

At any rate, if Canon is to stay with the 1.6X sensor, they'd better produce some good wide lenses. The 17-40 is great, but Sigma seems to be ruling the moderately-priced fast prime roost, along with the super-wide area.

[Longwatcher]

Doesn't the 10D already possess the highest pixel density of the DSLRs (including the 1D-II)? I'm wondering if raising that density further will be counter-productive to producing a lower-noise image.

At any rate, if Canon is to stay with the 1.6X sensor, they'd better produce some good wide lenses. The 17-40 is great, but Sigma seems to be ruling the moderately-priced fast prime roost, along with the super-wide area.

The answer is basically yes.
Canon 10D Pixel pitch = 7.4um
N....D70 = 7.8um
Canon 1Ds = 8.1um
Canon 1DM2 = 8.2um
Canon 1D = 10.8um
Kodak SLR/c = 7.9um
If I remember correctly from yesterday (know I got 10D correct - lost text after did research, but before posted and had to get back to work)

and yes anything below about 8um (which I have been told is optimum for best signal to noise in the visible portion of the spectrum) will result in less and less chances to correct for noise. Speculation was 4um could still result in high quality images, but below that you just start geting too much noise. Recognizing that the 8MP digicams are at 2.8um, obviously you can go lower, but you start getting noticeably less quality in the higher ISO region as the light is not hitting the detectors correctly enough anymore (just compare a the Powershot to the 10D at ISO 400 for example).

The physics say no matter what you can't go below 0.75um in pixel pitch and still pickup the all of the visible spectrum of light. (okay technically not completely true, but it will be taking higher order math to detect the signal instead of actual detection of the photon)

[donghlee]

http://www.kakaku.com/bbs/Main.asp?SortID=3025576&ViewRule2=1&Reload2=•Ž ¦&BBSTabNo=6&CategoryCD=0050&ItemCD=005002&MakerCD =14&Product=EOS+10D+DIGITAL

In summary:

1.6 crop factor remains.
8 mega pixels.
based on eos 7s(30)
Will be announced at Photokina Sep.

[reneebsen]

http://www.kakaku.com/bbs/Main.asp?SortID=3025576&ViewRule2=1&Reload2=•Ž ¦&BBSTabNo=6&CategoryCD=0050&ItemCD=005002&MakerCD =14&Product=EOS+10D+DIGITAL

In summary:

1.6 crop factor remains.
8 mega pixels.
based on eos 7s(30)
Will be announced at Photokina Sep.

Now I don´t read any Japaneese, so Please, tell what it says. I´m in the marked for a 1d MarkII, but if the 10D comes to be almost the same....? whats the point...????

[Mthorpe_Davies]

Hi if it's going to be an 8mp chip I don't see the point in Canon developing another one when they already have one. If it's going to be 8mp it will logically be the one from the 1d Mk11.

[CyberDyneSystems]

What are the thoughts on here about an upgrade to the 100-400L. New IS system?, possibly lose the push-pull? (although I would doubt that). Just wondered what improvements you would like to see made to this lens.....

If they could just repalce the IS with the newer version that's in the 70-200mm f/2.8IS and maybe speed up the AF performance.. they could keep the optics exactly the same... just upgrade the electronics and motors.

[Belmondo]

I still go to sleep at night dreaming about an EF 400 f/5.6L IS USM. On the other hand, there are people who argue passionately that the 300 f/4.0 was better before they added IS, so maybe they're better leaving the 400 alone.

[CyberDyneSystems]

A pity they won't make both.. :?

[eric1]

i was thinking of gettin' the 300f4 IS. i wish they made a somewhat affordable 500 5.6!

[sGu]

well i finally got out of 10D MKII rumour trap, freed myself by switching to 1D, knowing the successor already released but hard to get hold of, i now have a existing target to work towards to.

and it felt pretty guuuuuuuuud! :D

[JStone]

I, for one, don't want to see an 8mp chip unless they can make it extremely clean up to 800ISO...
I'd likethe 10DmkII to have:

A very,very clean 6mp with a 1.6 crop (if it went to 1.3 I wouldn't complain :wink:;
ISOs upwards of 1600;
Selective spot metering;
Lightning quick start up;
4-5fps with a big buffer ( I don't need 144 frames though :roll:);
No more wheel on the back, trade it for a pad;
E-TTLII;
(don't shoot me for this one) EF-S compatability (I already own a DReb and a 10D);
And, as always...improved AF.

Until reading this thread I hadn't even considered a DReb replacement/sidekick...but why not....they do have three film Rebels. Drop the current DReb to a $750 kit price, add a DReb X (or G or Ti or 2005) with selective metering modes, continuous servo AF, better buffer (heck rebadge the current 10D) and sell it at $1100 kit, then sell the 10DmkII at $1500 (body only)...that would leave room for a EOS 3D (as someone else poited out) at $2200...kind of a stripped down 1DmkII.

Canon USA reps have their annual sales meeting in the middle of August this year and are hopeful to find out some preliminary information. With full announcements at Photokina and delivery for the holiday season.

[Calvillo]

because you can now get 8/full frame on a P&S that also has L glass. If there wasn't a speed and build difference between the 1DII and the 10D, or the above P&S didn't exist, I could see Canon staying with 6.3/1.6 on the 10D. As the P&S cameras advance, they'll push the dSLR's to do the same to justify the additional price.

Digic II and E-TTLII will be on the next 10D, and so will the wheel. The buffer will be smaller than the 1DII, the seals will stay the same, and the ISO will probably match the 1DII. Build & speed will be the key differences because these are probably most important to the 1DII users.

Don't have a source, this is just my "gut".

[Tom W]

because you can now get 8/full frame on a P&S that also has L glass. If there wasn't a speed and build difference between the 1DII and the 10D, or the above P&S didn't exist, I could see Canon staying with 6.3/1.6 on the 10D. As the P&S cameras advance, they'll push the dSLR's to do the same to justify the additional price.

Well, that's partly true, but you don't get a full-frame sensor on a P&S - its a 2/3" sensor that is used on the Canon Pro-1, and its nearest competitors. Yes, its 8 megapixels, but no, its not full-frame, and it has the high noise to prove it.

But I do agree that P&S cameras will have some effect on the DSLR scene. 8 sounds better than 6.3, even though the Digital Rebel and 10D are considerably more capable with their larger, low-noise sensor and lens selection than the high-end P&S cameras. That's not to say that the Pro-1 is a bad camera - its quite good, but it has limitations that set it apart from the DSLR design.

Digic II and E-TTLII will be on the next 10D, and so will the wheel. The buffer will be smaller than the 1DII, the seals will stay the same, and the ISO will probably match the 1DII. Build & speed will be the key differences because these are probably most important to the 1DII users.

Don't have a source, this is just my "gut".

I agree to a certain extent. I don't know that the 1DII body and its seals will make it to the 10D, though some weather protection may be introduced. E-TTL II and Digic II are a given - these are easy advances to pass throughout the range. The high ISO noise performance is a different animal. The 1D II appears to have gained a whole stop's worth of lower noise over the 10D/Digireb (essentially, you can shoot with the Mk II at 800 and acheive the same noise levels as the 10D at ISO 400). That has a lot to do with the physically larger sensor, as well as advanced design and noise-reduction circuitry.

Stuffing 8 megapixels into the same size chip that the 10D has now would likely counter those advances and could even produce a camera with poorer noise performance than the present 10D. As well, greater pixel density will go further to exploit weaknesses in a lens.

Anyway, as fun as speculating is, only time will tell what's to come. Hopefully, Canon will hit another home run like they did with the 10D when it was introduced and the 1D Mk II when it came out.

[eric1]

anybody else notice the rumor mill over at DPR is REALLY churning?

[Calvillo]

"Well, that's partly true, but you don't get a full-frame sensor on a P&S - its a 2/3" sensor that is used on the Canon Pro-1, and its nearest competitors. Yes, its 8 megapixels, but no, its not full-frame, and it has the high noise to prove it."

Should have said full coverage, and the noise is certainly an issue.

"But I do agree that P&S cameras will have some effect on the DSLR scene. 8 sounds better than 6.3, even though the Digital Rebel and 10D are considerably more capable with their larger, low-noise sensor and lens selection than the high-end P&S cameras. That's not to say that the Pro-1 is a bad camera - its quite good, but it has limitations that set it apart from the DSLR design."

This is true, the question is how close to the dSLR's can the P&S's get before consumers start to defect from the more expensive cameras, or at least stop upgrading from P&S to dSLR's because the additional $'s don't seem worth it.

"I agree to a certain extent. I don't know that the 1DII body and its seals will make it to the 10D, though some weather protection may be introduced. E-TTL II and Digic II are a given - these are easy advances to pass throughout the range. The high ISO noise performance is a different animal. The 1D II appears to have gained a whole stop's worth of lower noise over the 10D/Digireb (essentially, you can shoot with the Mk II at 800 and acheive the same noise levels as the 10D at ISO 400). That has a lot to do with the physically larger sensor, as well as advanced design and noise-reduction circuitry."

I don't think the 10D will get the 1DII seals, I think Canon will keep these the same from 10D to 10DII. Isn't the Digic II a big factor for the lower noise on the IDII, and won't this help with noise on the 10DII? Wasn't it the creation of the Digic processor that allowed of the noise improvement between the D60 and the 10D?

"Stuffing 8 megapixels into the same size chip that the 10D has now would likely counter those advances and could even produce a camera with poorer noise performance than the present 10D. As well, greater pixel density will go further to exploit weaknesses in a lens."

That's why I'm thinking 8 mega sites / 1.3x.

"Anyway, as fun as speculating is, only time will tell what's to come. Hopefully, Canon will hit another home run like they did with the 10D when it was introduced and the 1D Mk II when it came out.[/quote]"

[CeeCee]

I heard from a Canon sales representative that the 1Ds II will still be a fullframed DSLR - it should come with a much better buffer - and 16.3 Mpix sensor (could be a brandnew type)

And heaps of other improvements compared to its predecessor.

If he was just talking bulls**t or whether Canon would let anyone know inside the company outside of the ingeneur-team - i obviously could not tell you.

But it sure sounds good to me - but we´ll have to wait a couple more months.

Don´t you just love rumours ;-)

Stensgaard

[Mthorpe_Davies]

Just back to the 20D rumour I called Canon NZ and asked them what was being released this year, I was told that the 10D replacement is called the 20D and will be 8mp, the girl I spoke to didn't have a clue what crop factor meant so can't advise if it's 1.3 or 1.6. I was told that there are samples of the camera in NZ and release date was in October.

I think that answers the question of MP count and the name of the camera, now all we have to do is wait a month or so to find out the rest.

[Matti J]

I can not agree with your oppinions. The crop will be 1,3 for the 10D MK II ( or how this thing will be named). Canon will not invent another 8,2 MP sensor with higher density (meaning smaler pixels). This is very costly and it is also a bigger problem concerning the resolution of the lenses.

Think of this from marketing viewpoint. They have to have some things to separate cameras targeted for pros and cameras targeted for semipro's and amateurs. They will not do models which overlap too much in features and capabilities in same year. 1.6X is an easy way to do that separation, ...

(Eventually) the separation is going to be by the sensor sizes and each target market has its own size:
1.0x for pros, 1D-series, sequels to 1D Mk II also
1.3x for semipros/advanced amateurs, future 3D/3xD-series
1.6x for amateurs, 2xxD-, 3xxD- etc. series

That is my speculation.

[Andy_T]

... the girl I spoke to didn't have a clue what crop factor meant ...

Scary, ain't it?
Well, maybe she's pretty ... :roll:

Best regards,
Andy

[Mthorpe_Davies]

I can not agree with your oppinions. The crop will be 1,3 for the 10D MK II ( or how this thing will be named). Canon will not invent another 8,2 MP sensor with higher density (meaning smaler pixels). This is very costly and it is also a bigger problem concerning the resolution of the lenses.

Think of this from marketing viewpoint. They have to have some things to separate cameras targeted for pros and cameras targeted for semipro's and amateurs. They will not do models which overlap too much in features and capabilities in same year. 1.6X is an easy way to do that separation, ...

(Eventually) the separation is going to be by the sensor sizes and each target market has its own size:
1.0x for pros, 1D-series, sequels to 1D Mk II also
1.3x for semipros/advanced amateurs, future 3D/3xD-series
1.6x for amateurs, 2xxD-, 3xxD- etc. series

That is my speculation.

Why are you lot so hung up on sensor size being the separating factor between pro and am cameras, in film it was the feature set of the camera that separated them. Ultimately all cameras will probably be full frame with the 1 series cameras having tougher build, weather sealing, better af, bigger buffer..........

[Belmondo]

Why are you lot so hung up on sensor size being the separating factor between pro and am cameras, in film it was the feature set of the camera that separated them. Ultimately all cameras will probably be full frame with the 1 series cameras having tougher build, weather sealing, better af, bigger buffer..........

The 'hangup' is really fueled by Canon's current lineup of bodies and, to an only slightly lesser degree, the EF line of lenses. It's also driven by old prejudices. If Canon ever decided to bring out a body with the features and image quality of a 1Ds and the ruggedness and performance of the Mk II, it would find wide acceptance in the professional market whether it had a 1X, 1.3X, or 1.6X crop factor. I don't think I agree with your prediction that all cameras will eventually be full-frame. The manufacturers will probably keep trying to sell smaller sensors---it simply makes good sense in the long run. The fact is, we're trying to define digital photograhy in 35mm terms, and we just have to outgrow that. There really isn't a need for large sensor except that we're currently saddled with all these big 35mm lenses and we're trying to get maximum utilization of them, something we can currently do only with full-frame sensors. It won't always be that way.

Tom

[Matti J]

I can not agree with your oppinions. The crop will be 1,3 for the 10D MK II ( or how this thing will be named). Canon will not invent another 8,2 MP sensor with higher density (meaning smaler pixels). This is very costly and it is also a bigger problem concerning the resolution of the lenses.

Think of this from marketing viewpoint. They have to have some things to separate cameras targeted for pros and cameras targeted for semipro's and amateurs. They will not do models which overlap too much in features and capabilities in same year. 1.6X is an easy way to do that separation, ...

(Eventually) the separation is going to be by the sensor sizes and each target market has its own size:
1.0x for pros, 1D-series, sequels to 1D Mk II also
1.3x for semipros/advanced amateurs, future 3D/3xD-series
1.6x for amateurs, 2xxD-, 3xxD- etc. series

That is my speculation.

Why are you lot so hung up on sensor size being the separating factor between pro and am cameras, in film it was the feature set of the camera that separated them. Ultimately all cameras will probably be full frame with the 1 series cameras having tougher build, weather sealing, better af, bigger buffer..........

Ultimately the cheapest (amateur) models will have the cheapest components, least buffer size, no weather sealing at all etc. Or have the 1-series film SLRs goodies ever been built into 3xxx-series film SLRs in the past years?

Sensors being now and for long time in the future the single most expensive part of the whole camera body, the sensor sizes along with different feature sets will be major factor for camera line separation.

Film SLR cameras share single equally cheap full frame "sensor" called film :wink: and naturally there the "sensor" size wasn't/isn't any factor for cost or design.

Digital sensor manufacturing costs grow exponentionally depending on physical sensor size and smaller sensors will be always a lot cheaper to make than the bigger ones. That way the cheaper and smaller sensors always find their way to the cheap= amateur models.

[Longwatcher]

My thoughts on sensor size.

For DSLR I believe all Canon cameras will go full frame, because they already have a full set of lenses geared for this size. Currently it is a matter of production cost more then anything else which most likely determines sensor size. And as I believe I have mentioned before about 22-25MP will be the limit for the pro-end and possible 50MP for the eventual very long term size limit for the 35mm size format. If Canon keeps a 1.6x sensor then they will add a few more wide-angle lenses to cover the issues the smaller sensor has. Now when this will happen, I have no idea, but suspect within 6 years the 1D equivelant will be FF and within 9 years the 10D equivilant will be FF. I am 50/50 on wether or not to believe the 10D category will go 1.3 this year or not. Would be nice and I might have to re-evaluate which direction to go with my camera purchases in the future.

On the other hand when not constrained by the 35mm format then things open up. sensor size will be determined by application. small sensors for nifty gadgets (such as cell phones and watches) and larger sensors for professional studio cameras that can hold bigger lenses.

With a absolute physics limit of 0.75um, a practical limit of around 2.8 and a optimal size of 8um for detector size, you can only get so many pixels in the camera body and also have the lens let light hit them.

Just my opinion,

[timmyquest]

I like, and when i think about it, agree with your theory Longwatcher. However i think your time frames are a bit off.

The growth in electronics of any kind is not liniear. As such, i personally feel that FF sensors are much closer then 6/9 years.

[Cadenza]

I making this post mostly so that I'm notified
of any new postings on this thread, now that
Photokina is almost here. But I'll share some
thoughts also:

1.3X would probably be ideal, I think I'd even
prefer it to 1.0x. I've been thinking of getting a
cheap used film rebel, just so that, on occasion,
I'd have a chance to use the full integral end
of the 17-40. I did that with a friend's film Rebel
and it was quite fun.

Other things that would be nice to have on 10D
replacement:

ISO 25/50/6400
Faster start up
Faster review
Firewire
More storage options

But more than 2 mil extra pixels or even a 1.3x
crop factor, what I want most of all is a DSLR with
a little swivel screen! If they can put 8 million
sensors on less than a square inch; if they can
make a camera take 8.5 shots per second;
there's got to be a way to put a little live LCD
on these. And I'm gonna repeat this until Canon
hears me! For most of us photographers of more
average talent, it's just a great tool for more
interesting shots and better composition.

[Matti J]

... , what I want most of all is a DSLR with
a little swivel screen! If they can put 8 million
sensors on less than a square inch; if they can
make a camera take 8.5 shots per second;
there's got to be a way to put a little live LCD
on these. And I'm gonna repeat this until Canon
hears me! ...

I suppose swivel screen is no use other than for framing. And swivel screen for framing is no use in current type of DSLRs:
A. DSLR sensors do not have a method for live preview by design
B. DSLR sensors work with mechanical shutter
C. There is a mirror in the way of DSLR sensor

After few years the concept of DSLR sensors may change, but for the time being the combination of simultanous SLR-type optical viewfinder and LCD viewfinder is hard to imagine.

Eventually there may be multimillion pixel LCD finders that match optical finders and thus replace them but this will take years to happen. Or they find a way for feeding the LCD preview from the optical viewfinder path (mirror > pentaprism > finder).

[Ikinaa]

For preview on DSLR ...
why not add a little (cheap) sensor (say half-megapixel) somewhere in the body, that gets the light in the same way as the optical finder, so that the lcd screen cas be used for preview...

I actually own a G3 and I find it great to use the swivel screen for framing.
You DSLR-owners... how do you frame a picture when you have to put the cam down at your feet to get a very low angle? guess and shoot?
I know, there exists angled-viewfinders (don't know if you call them like that), but honestly... wouldn't a G3-type display be the best solution?

[vtpeters]

Based on my experience (using a G3 for 1,5 year now and before that film SLR's exclusively), composing your shots using the LCD is hard at best.
Although the rotateable LCD screen of the G3 offers some very nice possibilities for composing my shot, it's very hard to see clear what's displayed on it. Especially when used in full sunlight. To tackle this problem, many reatailers and online stores offer LCD extensions/add-on's that prevent the sun from hitting the LCD screen. You use them as you would look through the viewfinder of your (D)SLR, which essentially eliminates the extra possibility of a rotateable LCD screen.

I've used my G3 for some time now and, although I like most of its features and the image quality, I'd very much miss the feel that I had with my old film SLR camera. I rather like the feeling of holding the camera close to my eye, shutting out all that's happening around me and consentrating on the image in the viewfinder. Besides, I find holding my G3 in front of me viewing at the LCD as I compose my shots more wobbly/unstable compared to pressing a SLR against my eye.

I'd prefer a D-SLR as they are now anytime. It's even hard to realy review the shot on the LCD screen, let alone use it to compose the shot. If that's what you want, consider the use of high-end P&S camera like the Canon Pro 1.

[Ikinaa]

...
Although the rotateable LCD screen of the G3 offers some very nice possibilities for composing my shot, it's very hard to see clear what's displayed on it. Especially when used in full sunlight. ...

I'd prefer a D-SLR as they are now anytime. It's even hard to realy review the shot on the LCD screen, let alone use it to compose the shot. If that's what you want, consider the use of high-end P&S camera like the Canon Pro 1.

True... the real drawback when framing with the lcd is sunlight...
Before my first digicam, I owned (and still do, even if I don't use it) an EOS500 (since 1995), and I really miss SLR, the G3 is handy, but I would really like a DSLR now.
So (I finally convinced wife :D ) the next Canon DSLR (I mean the 10D replacement, price-range between between 1200 and 2000 Euro for the body) whatever it's called, 3D, 30D, 10DmkII will be mine... if it's at least as good as the 10D, with still 4 lenses (covering 16-300mm) left from the EOS500, should be a good start...
So come-on Canon... bring it...

[hhelmbold]

I'm not too clued up on this but Canon SA's product manager judged at one of our photoclub meetings. He was not at liberty to tell about any new cameras coming, but he did say... "Wait for after Photokina to buy a new camera - you will be blown away"

I think reading between the lines there is something new on it's way :wink:

[timmyquest]

That almost gives me shivers!

"Wait for after Photokina to buy a new camera - you will be blown away"

It also makes me think he's talking about an EOS 1ds MKII...

[Ikinaa]

I'm not too clued up on this but Canon SA's product manager judged at one of our photoclub meetings. He was not at liberty to tell about any new cameras coming, but he did say... "Wait for after Photokina to buy a new camera - you will be blown away"

I think reading between the lines there is something new on it's way :wink:

I guess you don't need a product manager to tell you that...
Actually there's a fantastic race going on in the digital camera market. So if Canon or Nikon or ... doesn't have anything special to show off at Photokina or other, people sure talk about them but not in the good way...
You can't be Canon (or Nikon or ...) and not have something better at such a place...

[blinking8s]

why is the camera world the only freatin industry that manages to have crap for gossip that has substial proof...

how much longer till we know for sure about a 10d replacement?

[Andy_T]

Blinking8s

... the bold syntax of your statement definitely is lost on a non-native-English-speaker like me.

But I guess it's 41 days from now until we know for sure.

Best regards,
Andy

[Jon]

why is the camera world the only freatin industry that manages to have crap for gossip that has substial proof...

how much longer till we know for sure about a 10d replacement?

You mean aside from the computer industry, the movie industry, the auto industry, . . . ? Can't tell you how long there's been talk of a Honor Harrington movie!

[blinking8s]

haha...yeah, im tappin my foot for the next 41 days too

every other industry has magazines and whole communities of spies dedicated to gossip...everyone in the camera industry is just like "well we will have to wait for Photokina" :(


Seccond hand information, but.. Best Buy has entered a new SKU into their computer system. The description is Canon EOS 20D kit with EF-S 18-55mm lens $1499.99 in store date 10/10/04

[Andy_T]

Seccond hand information, but.. Best Buy has entered a new SKU into their computer system. The description is Canon EOS 20D kit with EF-S 18-55mm lens $1499.99 in store date 10/10/04


Great!!!! I love that kind of unfounded rumour!!!

IMPORTANT: Press your sources to see if you can find out what they entered under 'Colour' :lol:

Observation ... Assuming this is correct ... it won't be 1.3 crop factor, then :?

Best regards,
Andy

[slin100]

I've seen a few rumors cropping up lately in dpreview and Usenet that the 10D replacement will remain a 1.6x crop factor with 8 Mp, and there will be an EOS-3 body sporting the original 1Ds 11 Mp sensor. The 1Ds replacement will have a new 16 Mp sensor. If this is true, then that would leave the 1DMKII as the only 1.3x camera, which would make it an oddball.

Again, all rumors and I have no first-hand knowledge to substantiate any of this. This post is purely for entertainment value. :D

[blinking8s]

slin100...that is a LARGE jump for a camera replacement model

i expect them to start turning the 10d into a more refined camera, fix the AF system, buffer, speed...small steps :)

[slin100]

If you are just talking about the 10D, then I don't see it as a large jump. The crop factor remains the same, and there's just a modest increase from 6.3 to 8 Mp, just enough to keep abreast of the non-DSLR 8 Mp offerings.

OTOH, if you're talking about the EOS 3 body and the 1Ds MkII, then yes, the jump to full frame seems a bit earlier than expected. Who knows, maybe they're ready to make that jump, or think it's time to placate the hoards missing true wide angle lenses (suddenly the 17-40 becomes perfect!)?

[Andy_T]

If this is true, then that would leave the 1DMKII as the only 1.3x camera, which would make it an oddball.



how do you define oddball camera?

One out of five?

Current Canon lineup:
Full frame - 1 (1Ds)
1.3x - 1 (1DmkII)
1.6x - 2 (10D, DRebel)

Possible future lineup:
Full frame - 2 (1DsmkII, 3D)
1.3x - 1 (1DmkII)
1.6x - 2 (20D, DRebel)

... still 20 % of Canon's available camera models ... :wink:

Best regards,
Andy

[slin100]

Well, I was expecting the EOS 3 body to be 1.3x. That it might be full-frame along with the 1Ds is what prompted my comment. My thinking was that if Canon is moving towards two sensor sizes, 1.6x and 1x, then 1.3x becomes the oddball.

[Vita Rara]

My thinking was that if Canon is moving towards two sensor sizes, 1.6x and 1x, then 1.3x becomes the oddball.

Personally I think Canon is going to remain with three sensors, 1.6, 1.3 and 1. Utimately I think it's going to look something like this:

Current dRebel and a new lower level dRebel: 1.6x (6.3 MP)
10DMkII and 1DMkII: 1.3x (8 MP)
1DsMkII: 1x (? MP)

Mark

[alfa]

According to a guy in our local photo forum Canon will have a (global) launch on the 15th of Sept 2004.
its a rumor mill....

[Tom W]

the rumor mill is really hot over at DPR today. Among the more popular are that Canon will announce two new DSLR cameras this fall. Still lots of talk about 8 mpx, 1.6 factor, maybe 5 frames/second, and a 25 frame buffer.

Not my rumors, however. I started a better one over there - 200 mm f/2 IS. :)

[PacAce]

Anybody see these yet?

http://ibtaiwan.com/ipb/index.php?s=dc8593296d18f7dd637817a8cc19c7e9&showt opic=3331&st=0&#entry16553

http://www.sdcard.be/Nederlands/store/viewitem.asp?idproduct=8979348

[Biko]

Pic looks dodgy to me, the textured grip area on R/H side has no lght on it, looks flat.

[Tom W]

Pic looks dodgy to me, the textured grip area on R/H side has no lght on it, looks flat.

Yeah, and putting the red-eye reduction lamp in the middle of the hand grip seems kind-of counterproductive. It would be blocked by the fingers. Also, it looks like its been stretched a bit - that is, its not round any more.

[karusel]

I don't think it's real either... though it could be... :?

The difference between PRO range and amateur range is only the price. I'd say about <$1.000 is amateur $1.000-$3.000 semi-pro, >$3.000 pro class.

[PacAce]

Pic looks dodgy to me, the textured grip area on R/H side has no lght on it, looks flat.

Yeah, and putting the red-eye reduction lamp in the middle of the hand grip seems kind-of counterproductive. It would be blocked by the fingers. Also, it looks like its been stretched a bit - that is, its not round any more.

Ordinarily, I would be inclined to agree with you all and think that the photo is a fake. However, looking back to when photos of the G5 and later the Digital Rebel first came out, a lot of people, including myself, were skeptical and thought that they were fakes. Turned out that they weren't. So, regarding this 10DN business, it just might be the real thing.

Let's assume that it is real. Then what does that mean? Looking at the photo, you can kind of deduce that the camera is going to operate like the 1DmkII, i.e. two-handed control operation, instead of like the current 10D which can be operated with one hand. I say that because the "10Dn" is missnig the rotary mode selection dial that the current 10D has but it does seem to have all the buttons the 1DmkII has on the top of the camera.

As for the red-eye-reduction/timer lamp, well, you'll note that that's where the 1DmkII has it's timer lamp, too. Tom's right about it being counter-productive for a red-eye-reduction lamp with it situated where it is. But what if it's only function is that of a timer lamp? The internal flash can be used for red-eye reduction. Yes, it would be annoying but so is using the internal lamp for AF assist. Besides, how many 10D users really have red-eye-reduction turned on in their cameras? :)

I wish Canon would announce something soon. I'm really getting antsy waiting for Photonika 2004. :evil:

[Jon]

. . . and did anyone notice that the Taiwan site said July 1, 2004 marks the introduction of the Canon EOS 10DN,

an upgrade to the highly regarded EOS 10D.

So it was released over a month ago and none of us heard about it? We're obviously spending too much time taking pictures.

[blinking8s]

. . . and did anyone notice that the Taiwan site said July 1, 2004 marks the introduction of the Canon EOS 10DN,

an upgrade to the highly regarded EOS 10D.

So it was released over a month ago and none of us heard about it? We're obviously spending too much time taking pictures.

humm...


July 1, 2004 marks the introduction of the Canon EOS 10DN,

an upgrade to the highly regarded EOS 10D.
Physically it is nearly identical to the 10D, save a new crinkled finish texture.

The resemblance is only skin deep as internally the EOS 10DN is revolutionary rather than evolutionary:
¡@8.3MP CMOS sensor with 1.3 cropping factor (8.0MP effective),
¡@E-TTL II,
¡@iTunes compatibility,
¡@eye activated AF,
¡@Firewire 800 and Bluetooth interfaces,
¡@GPS ability,
¡@11-AF sensor array with 4 cross sensors,
¡@improved AF to -1 EV,
¡@user disable/enable viewfinder grid pattern,
¡@27 custom functions,
¡@and user sizable partial/spot pattern (1% to 15% via CF).

The MSRP is $1500,
with an estimated street price of $1200.


http://dimg.163.com/dp/040811/20d/2.jpg

vs

http://dimg.163.com/dp/040811/20d/3.jpg


"Canon EOS 20D will be available in September.

8.0 MP
1.6x
Digic 2 circuit
9 point AF
5 FPS
0.2s starting time
1/8000s

Compatible with EF-S lens interface which digital rebel is using now.
Almost same exterior design as 10D but adding a joy sitck at the center of the control wheel

and two new lenses:

EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM DC
EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM DC"


- http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/120746

[Tom W]

Two cameras. 20D and 10Dn (or 3D).

[blinking8s]

so they are not the same thing? I figured it was just going to be called the 20d here in the US or something

[Tom W]

I don't really have a clue - its all speculation. Though a couple of patterns are developing.

[eric1]

if they call it a 20D, they will most likely release another cam. a 20D would be less of a cam than a 10D. consensus is... 8mp-1.6-ettl2-9 point focusing-digic 2-faster start up. that being said, i'd get in line for that 10Dn!

[blinking8s]

ive been googling like mad...all the suggested specs for the 10dn and 20d are the same...or damn close

[Tom W]

if they call it a 20D, they will most likely release another cam. a 20D would be less of a cam than a 10D. consensus is... 8mp-1.6-ettl2-9 point focusing-digic 2-faster start up. that being said, i'd get in line for that 10Dn!

The 20D is looking less like a rumor and more like a reality. It appears to me to be the natural progression of the 10D as far as development and features, even if the name implies a lower spot on Canon's heirarchy. I don't see it as a leap forward - just a step ahead of what the 10D is now. There still remains a gap in the lineup between $1500 cameras and $4500 cameras.

Look for an announcement on Friday, August 20th. It should be close to as described on Fred Miranda's site in blinking8's post (and as you describe):

8 mpx/1.6X
Digic 2
9-point AF
5 fps
Faster startup.
1/8000 sec.

None of these things would make me trade my 10D, but if I were choosing a good DSLR to start with, it sounds pretty decent.

[Guillermo Freige]

Why are you saying a 20D will imply by the number a less capable camera than the 10D? It isn´t true. Just check the specs of the old film EOS 10 compared to the actual EOS 30 :)
Different numbers in the same order of magnitude just denotes evolution of the model. You must change the order of magnitude to change the model line. Canon used the 1/1x/1xx/1xxx models first, then used the 5/5x/5xx to generate some intermediate models, and now it´s using the 3/3x/3xx numbering. In fact, the 3 line is better in an order of magnitude than previous models, and now an EOS 3000 is as good as an old EOS 500 was.
I'm using non-US model names. In USA they use the Rebel / Elan names, making the thing a little more confusing, because in the Rebel line they mix the xxx and xxxx models. Elan are the xx models only.
So, bottom line, a 20D doesn´t mean a less capable camera because the higher number compared to the 10D, just an evolution of the 10D. Probably if they called it 30D, will be easier to accept, because it can be seeen as the digital EOS 30 :)

[Jon]

8 MP, 1.6X makes absolutely no sense. They've got an 8 MP 1.3x already, so they'd get max. economic benefit from increasing production of that, rather than pushing fab density for the 1.6x form factor any further. They'd either have to build a new line or do a simultaneous upgrade to the DRebel (which would otherwise continue to need the 6.3 MP 1.6x sensor) if they continued with 1.6x and increased resolution to 8 MP for a 10D successor.

[Guillermo Freige]

8 MP, 1.6X makes absolutely no sense. They've got an 8 MP 1.3x already, so they'd get max. economic benefit from increasing production of that, rather than pushing fab density for the 1.6x form factor any further. They'd either have to build a new line or do a simultaneous upgrade to the DRebel (which would otherwise continue to need the 6.3 MP 1.6x sensor) if they continued with 1.6x and increased resolution to 8 MP for a 10D successor.

Not true. The Drebel and 10D uses different manufacturing processes. They are different sensors made in different factories. So they can modify the actual 10D sensor factory without affecting the Drebel sensor manufacturing.
Also, a 1.3x sensor is much more expensive than a 1.6x one (less sensors per waffer), so a $1500 camera with a 1.3x probably isn´t possible yet.
Despite that I think the 8MP/1.6x option isn´t a good one. Except, of course, they can improve (or at least keep) the dynamic range and noise levels of the 10D. I'll prefer anyday a more usable 6MP sensor with better dinamic range and ISO sensitivity, than an 8MP one with equal or less performance than the actual 6MP one.
Of course if the $2000-2500 camera with 8MP/1.3x sensor with ECF is launched too, I can forgive Canon for the $1500 10D upgrade with the smaller sensor :)

[Jon]

You sure Canon's using two different 6.3 MP 1.6x crop CMOS sensors in the DR and the 10D? I'm sure the cameras are built on different lines, but I really doubt the sensors (not the supporting electronics) are any different.

[Guillermo Freige]

You sure Canon's using two different 6.3 MP 1.6x crop CMOS sensors in the DR and the 10D? I'm sure the cameras are built on different lines, but I really doubt the sensors (not the supporting electronics) are any different.
Their manufacturing methods are different. Canon redesigned the sensor to save costs for the DRebel. They aren´t interchangeable (at least that's what Canon said). Despite that, performance is the same, or at least very close.

[Jon]

OK, I stand corrected. Strange they wouldn't migrate the 10D to it as well rather than build a second fab. The DR had to be on the boards when they began building for the 10D.

[Tom W]

You sure Canon's using two different 6.3 MP 1.6x crop CMOS sensors in the DR and the 10D? I'm sure the cameras are built on different lines, but I really doubt the sensors (not the supporting electronics) are any different.
Their manufacturing methods are different. Canon redesigned the sensor to save costs for the DRebel. They aren´t interchangeable (at least that's what Canon said). Despite that, performance is the same, or at least very close.

There's also the slim chance that later 10D's have the same revised sensor as the Digital Rebel. I don't know, but it is a possibility.

[Calvillo]

Anybody see these yet?

http://ibtaiwan.com/ipb/index.php?s=dc8593296d18f7dd637817a8cc19c7e9&showt opic=3331&st=0&#entry16553

http://www.sdcard.be/Nederlands/store/viewitem.asp?idproduct=8979348

I like it if true, but the GPS & i Tunes lead me to suspect it's a gag. Also, it looks like someone was practicing their Pshop skills on the 10DN type area.

Again, if true put me on the list, 1.3x & 8 megs float my boat.

[CyberDyneSystems]

One camera says 1.3X just like the MkII.. the other claims ab 8mp 1.6X...

I'd think if they went to 8 it would be 1.3X

The "mockup" has the white balance sensor from the 1D... I find it hard to imagine a reason to bring that back?

If the 10D"N" had eye controlled focus would it not be a 10D "EN" ??

The "N: was only renecntly added to the Elan7 and Elan7E to deifne the newer models with ETTL2 etc....

They did not drop the "E"

And I-tunes? No way. This is NOT an S-400... where such a gadget may be of interest.. but who in there right mind would use a giant fat SLR as an MP3 player?

No.. it's all fake IMHO.

(which is not to say that there won't be an 8MP 10D replacement this fall.. only that the mockup we are locking at is fake.)

[timmyquest]

And I-tunes? No way.

You mean this is a serious rumor? I thought it was a joke...

The canon guys must be loving this :lol:

[Guillermo Freige]

If the 10D"N" had eye controlled focus would it not be a 10D "EN" ??

The "N: was only renecntly added to the Elan7 and Elan7E to deifne the newer models with ETTL2 etc....


CDS:
ECF nomenclature is very erratic, at least in european naming. US names are more consistent (an E in the name). The EOS 5 was a camera with ECF and didn't have an E. The US model was the little dumber in M mode A2E, and the A2 was the same without ECF (no EOS 5 without ECF was launched in Europe). In the EOS 50, the E was appended to the number for the ECF enabled model, but in the recent EOS 30/33 pair, the 30 model has ECF and the 33 lacks it. The 30 was the Elan7E in USA and the 33 the Elan7. The E was dropped again for european models. Another case is the the ECF enabled EOS 3 (similar to the 5 case). So a ECF camera using a number name not necesarily needs to have a E.
Also, recently they replaced the 30/33 (Elan7e/7) by a newer model, adding a letter, but not the same in US an Europe markets!!. The new cameras are the 30v/33v in europe, but the Elan7NE/7N in US. :) Again, ECF capability is shown using a lower number instead of a letter in european names.

[Andy_T]

I go very much with Guillermo's reasoning as to the sensor size ...

I'd love an affordable 1.3 8 MP camera ... but as the sensor is the most expensive piece of the camera, I don't put very much hope into it.

A 1.6 8 MP sure makes a lot of sense to me ... as the future mainstay in the Canon's mid-level DSLR lineup, with the 6 MP DRebel at the lower end.

Best regards,
Andy

[Jon]

No, an 8 MP 1.6x is less likely than an 8 MP 1.3x. To increase the sensor cell density they'd need to go to a smaller, higher-density fab, where they make the sensors. New fabs, at higher density, generally have lower yields than older, more established fabs. The 6.3 MP 10D/DReb sensor is already higher density than the 8 MP sensor used in the 1D Mk II, so by migrating a fab to making the 8 MP 1.3x sensor as in the 1D mk II (or a re-designed one), Canon would be getting better yields even if fewer sensors per wafer. If Canon goes with an 8 MP sensor, it'll be at 1.3x; If they stay at 1.6x, it'll stay at 6.3 MP.

For an in-depth discussion of issues with the 6.3 MP 1.6x sensor, take a look at this thread (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2849). If this is showing up as a problem at 6.3 MP, why would Canon court disaster by pushing to 8 MP in the same form factor?

[Vita Rara]

No, an 8 MP 1.6x is less likely than an 8 MP 1.3x.

Jon, I'm with you for the reasons you state. Ramping up an 8MP sensor in the 1.6x format would be far more costly then using the existing one they have from the 1DMkII. Also I think a 1.6x 8MP sensor would have inferior performance characteristics in general then the existing 6.3MP 1.6x sensor. There's no reason for Canon to ship a successor to the 10D that has inferior performance.

Mark

[Tom W]

No, an 8 MP 1.6x is less likely than an 8 MP 1.3x.

Jon, I'm with you for the reasons you state. Ramping up an 8MP sensor in the 1.6x format would be far more costly then using the existing one they have from the 1DMkII. Also I think a 1.6x 8MP sensor would have inferior performance characteristics in general then the existing 6.3MP 1.6x sensor. There's no reason for Canon to ship a successor to the 10D that has inferior performance.

Mark

I remember that thread - I don't recall that the issues brought up by the original poster became a problem in the real world. I know that small-sensor cameras like the Pro-1 suffer from noise issues, but I beleive that the limited aperture range on such cameras is more related to aperture diffraction than to sensor issues. Those lenses at f/11 have a very tiny aperture.

Still, I'd prefer the larger sensor for its other qualities, in particular, low noise, DOF, and available wide-angle capabilities.

[Jon]

No, an 8 MP 1.6x is less likely than an 8 MP 1.3x.

Jon, I'm with you for the reasons you state. Ramping up an 8MP sensor in the 1.6x format would be far more costly then using the existing one they have from the 1DMkII. Also I think a 1.6x 8MP sensor would have inferior performance characteristics in general then the existing 6.3MP 1.6x sensor. There's no reason for Canon to ship a successor to the 10D that has inferior performance.

Mark

I remember that thread - I don't recall that the issues brought up by the original poster became a problem in the real world. I know that small-sensor cameras like the Pro-1 suffer from noise issues, but I beleive that the limited aperture range on such cameras is more related to aperture diffraction than to sensor issues. Those lenses at f/11 have a very tiny aperture.

Still, I'd prefer the larger sensor for its other qualities, in particular, low noise, DOF, and available wide-angle capabilities.

The gist of the thread was that around f/11 diffraction around the aperture began to overwhelm, if you will, individual sensor cells, leading to degradation of the image (sensor resolution was so high that diffraction effects would spread to 2 or more cells at an edge)

[Tom W]

No, an 8 MP 1.6x is less likely than an 8 MP 1.3x.

Jon, I'm with you for the reasons you state. Ramping up an 8MP sensor in the 1.6x format would be far more costly then using the existing one they have from the 1DMkII. Also I think a 1.6x 8MP sensor would have inferior performance characteristics in general then the existing 6.3MP 1.6x sensor. There's no reason for Canon to ship a successor to the 10D that has inferior performance.

Mark

I remember that thread - I don't recall that the issues brought up by the original poster became a problem in the real world. I know that small-sensor cameras like the Pro-1 suffer from noise issues, but I beleive that the limited aperture range on such cameras is more related to aperture diffraction than to sensor issues. Those lenses at f/11 have a very tiny aperture.

Still, I'd prefer the larger sensor for its other qualities, in particular, low noise, DOF, and available wide-angle capabilities.

The gist of the thread was that around f/11 diffraction around the aperture began to overwhelm, if you will, individual sensor cells, leading to degradation of the image (sensor resolution was so high that diffraction effects would spread to 2 or more cells at an edge)

Unfortunately, I don't think I've ever seen the effects of that situation, or at least not any more than what diffraction would normally do with film. I am pretty confident shooting at f/16 that the effects won't be objectionable (or at least I haven't noticed any problems at that aperture). Of course, that isn't to say that the problem wouldn't 'rear its ugly head' on higher-density sensors. Then again, even at 8 MPX, a 1.6 sensor won't resolve as fine as a decent slow-mid speed film.

[timmyquest]

Isnt it supose to be announced this Friday?

[Andy_T]

No, an 8 MP 1.6x is less likely than an 8 MP 1.3x.

Jon, I'm with you for the reasons you state. Ramping up an 8MP sensor in the 1.6x format would be far more costly then using the existing one they have from the 1DMkII. Also I think a 1.6x 8MP sensor would have inferior performance characteristics in general then the existing 6.3MP 1.6x sensor. There's no reason for Canon to ship a successor to the 10D that has inferior performance.

Mark

I remember that thread - I don't recall that the issues brought up by the original poster became a problem in the real world. I know that small-sensor cameras like the Pro-1 suffer from noise issues, but I beleive that the limited aperture range on such cameras is more related to aperture diffraction than to sensor issues. Those lenses at f/11 have a very tiny aperture.


Boys, do not fear :lol:

Here's the good old 'airy discs' thread, it's been lurking for quite some time now:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2849&highlight=

And YES, I know that some guys will now immediately post that the statements in the thread are not correct ... after all, it was a discussion, albeit a jolly interesting one (IMHO).

The bottom line for some people was (I'm simplifying it a bit now, pardon that):
Don't go from the D30 to the D60, as the density of the sensor is too high to give sharp pictures because of diffraction.

I think that most will agree that it has been proved in the meantime that it *is* possible to get a decent picture out of the D60, 10D and 300D, so the risk might not be so high.

So it might also just be possible to increase the sensor density by a further 30%, maybe with an improved DIGIC chip to get a clean picture out of a 1.6x 8 MP chip.

Anyway, we'll see that, soon.

Best regards,
Andy

[Guillermo Freige]

Isnt it supose to be announced this Friday?
Just another rumor, and one not near as solid as last year DRebel launch.
Last year DRebel anouncement at 8/20 was almost a sure thing. This time the rumors are less reliable.

[slin100]

No, an 8 MP 1.6x is less likely than an 8 MP 1.3x.

Jon, I'm with you for the reasons you state. Ramping up an 8MP sensor in the 1.6x format would be far more costly then using the existing one they have from the 1DMkII. Also I think a 1.6x 8MP sensor would have inferior performance characteristics in general then the existing 6.3MP 1.6x sensor. There's no reason for Canon to ship a successor to the 10D that has inferior performance.

Mark

I remember that thread - I don't recall that the issues brought up by the original poster became a problem in the real world. I know that small-sensor cameras like the Pro-1 suffer from noise issues, but I beleive that the limited aperture range on such cameras is more related to aperture diffraction than to sensor issues. Those lenses at f/11 have a very tiny aperture.

Still, I'd prefer the larger sensor for its other qualities, in particular, low noise, DOF, and available wide-angle capabilities.

The gist of the thread was that around f/11 diffraction around the aperture began to overwhelm, if you will, individual sensor cells, leading to degradation of the image (sensor resolution was so high that diffraction effects would spread to 2 or more cells at an edge)
Here's (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=9894362) one guy who supposedly says this is false or at least not something to worry about in practice.

[Tom W]

Here's some images - I think this is it myself:

http://canonguy.tripod.com/

NEW LINK BELOW

http://phototom.fotopic.net/c261946.html

[CoolToolGuy]

Here's some images - I think this is it myself:

http://canonguy.tripod.com/

I hope you're right - I like what I see there.

Have Fun,

[PacAce]

Here's some images - I think this is it myself:

http://canonguy.tripod.com/

Hey, what gives? All I get is "Unavailable Tripod directory". :?

[Tom W]

Here's some images - I think this is it myself:

http://canonguy.tripod.com/

Hey, what gives? All I get is "Unavailable Tripod directory". :?

They're gone, but I managed to right-click and save 6 images & converted to JPG. As soon as fotopic gets it up, I'll post a link. Can't guarantee that I'll be able to keep it up very long.

FWIW, the 20D looks very much like the 10D, but with a joypad, and two less rear buttons. Flash pops up higher. The new 17-85 f/4-5.6 IS lens is mounted on it, and a new 10-22 mm f/3.5-4.5 EF-S USM lens is also there.

[CoolToolGuy]

Here's some images - I think this is it myself:

http://canonguy.tripod.com/

Hey, what gives? All I get is "Unavailable Tripod directory". :?

Leo, did you sign and submit your NDA? :wink:

Have Fun,

[Tom W]

Let's see how this works:

http://phototom.fotopic.net/c261946.html

[bigdave]

I'm glad those photos indicate they've kept the wheel on the back, cause I for one prefer it to the buttons on the DRebel. Can we deduce anything about the crop ratio 1.3 vs 1.6 assuming that EF-S mount lenses will work on the new 10D? I'm excited about the camera, but just as pumped about that 10-22mm EF-S lens! Drool... let's see... tuition, or camera? I'll have to sleep on it. :lol:

[Belmondo]

This is more on the order of a question than a comment, but isn't the EF-S lens format optimized for the 1.6X crop factor? If so, wouldn't that at least suggest that Canon plans on have that size sensor in their lineup for at least a while?

[Tom W]

More stuff - more specs on the 20D:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=9924289

Its good, but I'm waiting for Photokina for something more.....

[PacAce]

Tom W, thanks for the link. They definitely look like the real thing. I was really looking forward to the new 10D replacement but after seeing thiese pictures I think I'm kind of disappointed. As Tom-ondo indicated (asked?), the EF-S does kind of leasd one to suspect that the 1.6X crop factore is going to be retained on the 20D. I just hope they didn't go with the penta-mirror instead of keeping the old penta-prism. :(

Oh, well, maybe there's still hope for a "surprise" model between the 10D and teh 1DmkII (and that definitely ain't going to be the 20D). :?

[Tom W]

This is more on the order of a question than a comment, but isn't the EF-S lens format optimized for the 1.6X crop factor? If so, wouldn't that at least suggest that Canon plans on have that size sensor in their lineup for at least a while?

1.6X is here to stay. Canon's doing a split, I guess. The good side is that the folks with Rebels and 20D's will have access to good consumer/semi-pro lenses made for their cameras as well as the full range of EF lenses. The bad side is that it doesn't look like anything wide will be available for us 10D/D30/D60 owners (other than the excellent 17-40 and 16-35 lenses.

Unless Canon does some retrofitting of some sort.

[Belmondo]

WEll, the $1300 street price should kick the slats out of teh remaining 10D sales. This looks good----very good.

[PacAce]

More stuff - more specs on the 20D:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=9924289

Its good, but I'm waiting for Photokina for something more.....

You can say that again. . :?

[Tom W]

WEll, the $1300 street price should kick the slats out of teh remaining 10D sales. This looks good----very good.

I certainly wouldn't trade from a 10D to the 20D, but its a very respectable upgrade from the 10D. The features it offers are better than the features that the 10D offers, it has tighter resolution (hopefully not more noise), and it retains the sexy looks of the 10D.

If it tests well, its going to be another winner.

[Belmondo]

More stuff - more specs on the 20D:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=9924289

Its good, but I'm waiting for Photokina for something more.....

You can say that again. . :?

Jeez. Are you guys ever happy? :lol:

[Belmondo]

WEll, the $1300 street price should kick the slats out of teh remaining 10D sales. This looks good----very good.

I certainly wouldn't trade from a 10D to the 20D, but its a very respectable upgrade from the 10D. The features it offers are better than the features that the 10D offers, it has tighter resolution (hopefully not more noise), and it retains the sexy looks of the 10D.

If it tests well, its going to be another winner.

Would it be fair to call this a 'D70 Killer?'

[PacAce]

More stuff - more specs on the 20D:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=9924289

Its good, but I'm waiting for Photokina for something more.....

You can say that again. . :?

Jeez. Are you guys ever happy? :lol:

Sure! When I bought my 10D a year and some odd months ago! :lol: And I want to feel that way again with another new camera.

[Tom W]

WEll, the $1300 street price should kick the slats out of teh remaining 10D sales. This looks good----very good.

I certainly wouldn't trade from a 10D to the 20D, but its a very respectable upgrade from the 10D. The features it offers are better than the features that the 10D offers, it has tighter resolution (hopefully not more noise), and it retains the sexy looks of the 10D.

If it tests well, its going to be another winner.

Would it be fair to call this a 'D70 Killer?'

Yes!

But it wouldn't be fair to call it a "10D killer"! :)

I still smell something 1.3 on the horizon. If not, I'll be hanging on to my gear for a long time.
This 20D has taken over the rumor mill, but Canon loves to surprise people. I'm still thinking of an announcement at Photokina that will fill that "3" range between the 10/20D and the 1D/1Ds. I'll even bet a dollar on it. :)

[timmyquest]

If there is any truth to this, it is pretty much exactly the camera i feel would work well for me.

I sure hope i could muster up that amount of cash within the next month and a half. What a better time to play with a new, and far improved (over the 300D) camera then mid-football season.

Better take a look at a budget of sorts.

[Belmondo]

But it wouldn't be fair to call it a "10D killer"! :)

I didn't. I wouldn't. I am not a heretic. :x :wink: :lol:

I predict that when the history of digital photography is written, the 10D will be remembered as a landmark camera.

[timmyquest]

This may not be so exciting to current 10D owners but to those who feel limited by their 300D before this has even been confirmed, these rumors tickle the tummy.

[CoolToolGuy]

If the specs are accurate, it certainly is a nice step up from a Drebel. And if the 17-85 IS lens performs well it would make an outstanding range for a standard zoom. In fact, I might be tempted to sell both the Drebel and my 24-70 L to get the kit.

Have Fun,

[Tom W]

But it wouldn't be fair to call it a "10D killer"! :)

I didn't. I wouldn't. I am not a heretic. :x :wink: :lol:

I predict that when the history of digital photography is written, the 10D will be remembered as a landmark camera.

No doubt its an improvement over the 10D - a pretty good one. But, it isn't nearly the quantum leap that the 1D mk II was over the 1D.

One more feature would have swayed me (1.3), but as it stands, I'm holding my ground.

The two new EF-S lenses are intriguing though. Those two lenses would possibly have swayed me, had I not gone to "L" without a handcart over the last several months. Its unfortunate that EF-S isn't likely to be available to us 10D people, as that 10-22 looks very interesting.

[timmyquest]

No doubt its an improvement over the 10D - a pretty good one. But, it isn't nearly the quantum leap that the 1D mk II was over the 1D.

How many between the 1d and the 1ds

How many years passed from the 1d to the 1d MKII

I honestly dont know but if my assumptions are right then this isnt exactly the most fair statement one could make.

[Tom W]

No doubt its an improvement over the 10D - a pretty good one. But, it isn't nearly the quantum leap that the 1D mk II was over the 1D.

How many between the 1d and the 1ds

Don't know.

How many years passed from the 1d to the 1d MKII

Don't know, but it isn't really important.

I honestly dont know but if my assumptions are right then this isnt exactly the most fair statement one could make.

I guess that I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.

This is what I meant: When the 1D Mk II came out, it pretty-much blew away the 1D. Double the pixels, an incredible increase in speed and buffer capacity, greater focus accuracy, improved feature set, improved dynamic range, and considerably lower noise. I don't think that the 20D will have that much advantage over the 10D. Yes, it is going to be better in many ways, but I don't expect improved dynamic range nor do I foresee any improvement in noise.

Don't get me wrong - if I had a Digirebel or I was looking for my first DSLR, the 20D would be a very enticing choice. But its not a big enough improvement over the 10D to warrant me moving up.

[timmyquest]

I'm just saying that the 1d to the 1d mkII, in years, seems more like the d30 to the "20d". Rather then the, what? year and a half, since the 10d and the "20D".

Now, look at the jump from the 1ds and the 1d mkII, if the sensor size was the same the 1dmkII would be an obvious better camera, but not by quiet as much.

The 20D will have the same sort of advantages as this (1ds to 1dMKII) Digic II ETTL2 better buffer, etc.

10D owners wont be as happy as 1d owners are (who know own 1dMKII's) until next year perhaps.

That is all i am saying.

[Vita Rara]

Its good, but I'm waiting for Photokina for something more.....

I'm not sure I'd even agree with you that it is good. In my estimation it's "ok," but barely. It's a nice'ish upgrade over the 10D but nothing compelling. The 1.6x crop factor and the adoption of the EF-S mount leaves me cold. I see EF-S lenses as a dead end.

In my view the reality is that larger sensors will rule the future. Investing in EF-S lenses is throwing money away. (Unless they have reasonable performance on a 1.3x sensor, which is an unanswered question.)

The 8MP 1.6x sensor is another area of serious concern. It's going to be far more impacted by difraction and I don't see how they are going to deliver low noise images with that many pixels shoved into such a small form factor. I suspect we will see better noise performance out of the 10D/300D sensor, which means, to me, that the 20D is a stop gap camera to keep low end sales from being eroded by the 8MP P&S's. More a camera for the uneducated to put it politely.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'll keep my money and wait for a 1.3x body that's cheaper then the 1DMkII for which I can buy real lenses I will have for a life time.

Just my $0.02 (US),

Mark