When full frame is not enough (medium format questions)

[Lightstream]

I like full frame. No matter what they say, there's a lot to love about a true FF sensor, and hence my primary digital has gone FF with absolutely NO regrets.

Now, I'm looking to take a step beyond - both into the past and into a bigger frame. Bring on 645 medium format. (no, I don't want to start a war about 6x6 and 6x7 or even 4x5" LF - though I had a great conversation with an LF enthusiast yesterday).

This is not going to be my main camera, it's really just going to be a fun toy. For all the occasions where I am actually going to USE the shots, digital's lightning fast turnaround and instant gratification will always carry the day. But I'm looking for a bit more "Zen" in slow photography with cheaper gear. I'm even prepared to carry a tripod and slowly set up for MF. (got a nice Gitzo I could use..)

What do you guys think of these packages? I know it's ebay, but it's by Adorama. B&H doesn't have much in the way of Mamiyas.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=016&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=260131206085&rd=1&rd=1

I specifically want the metered prism (especially with film, I already don't trust sunny 16 with digital where I can afford to bracket at 8.5fps on my Mk2). It looks like a great package at a great price, personally.

What I also want is that the camera works. I don't want to spend extra $$ on servicing and all that crap especially since I am overseas and returning it is going to cost more than it is worth.

Not really interested in TLRs, don't like the look. Not keen on Holgas either, I'm going to stuff Velvia 100F into this one and see if I can get some nice landscapes to keep.

Also, comments on the 35mm, 45mm or 55mm Mamiya-Sekor C lenses welcome. I might add one later once I know I like the system. (am aware of the conversion factor and how their FOV's relate to 35mm. I want a bit wider and these will give me something like my 28/1.8 or 35/2 on 5D).

[howzitboy]

wow thats cheap for a ready to use med format camera. i say worth the gamble.

i use Hasselblads and love 6x6 (so i dont have to flip a heavy camera). its a fun toy!

[Wilt]

The Mamiya 1000S is an older model that was supplanted by the Mamiya 645. The M645 offers a great metering prism that is both Averaging and Spot and has the ability to auto shift between the two modes! But that prism will not fit the 1000S, if I recall correctly. I am totally unfamiliar with the ability (or not) for the M1000S to accept lenses for the M645...you better investigate this thoroughly, as you would be more limited to harder to find lenses if the M1000S lenses are different!

I am a Bronica shooter, so my recollection about interchangeability of components in the Mamiya line for 645 is limited.

[Lightstream]

Thanks guys, I might actually give it a shot. I'm prepared to shoot this one with the equivalent of what would be our nifty fifty (in metal ;) ).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamiya

Wilt's right, the models changed halfway through but I'm under the impression that the Mamiya MF lenses continue to be interoperable. I'll follow up and do more research on this, but at this time it does not seem like anybody has sorted them into two different categories or made notes like "only fits 645 Super/TL/later models etc.".

The M645 lacks the changeable back though, so no polaroid backs are available. Later 645 Super/Pro/TL's have those and can take digital backs.

Then again my 'polaroid/digital' back is a 5D, since it is already here and not going away ;)

Edit: Got it - http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Lh4s - full interoperability between all manual focus 645's. It's the AFD one that starts breaking stuff, but I have a 1D2 for the days I want AF.

What's alarming is that the CDS meter is nothing great, looks like my 'polaroid back' is going to have to do a lot more work :D

[Lightstream]

Something else just caught my eye - Pentax 645N.
http://photo.net/equipment/pentax/645N

I was reading a lot of concerns over ageing Mamiya meters (and meters in general from that era - even on AE-1s and how they could be a lottery). Then I came across the Pentax and it has lots of nifty little features I think I could use. Data imprinting (all hail my EXIF), ability to shoot metered manual or Av mode for the days I'd like to chase the dial a bit less, and the grip in many of the packages.

I'm not in it for the AF....trust me.. ;)

[Wilt]

Something else just caught my eye - Pentax 645N.
http://photo.net/equipment/pentax/645N

I was reading a lot of concerns over ageing Mamiya meters (and meters in general from that era - even on AE-1s and how they could be a lottery). Then I came across the Pentax and it has lots of nifty little features I think I could use. Data imprinting (all hail my EXIF), ability to shoot metered manual or Av mode for the days I'd like to chase the dial a bit less, and the grip in many of the packages.

I'm not in it for the AF....trust me.. ;)

The Pentax 645 is the closest thing to a later 35mm automagic SLR in medium format. So adaptation to its is least foreign to 35mm shooter. It even has an autoreturn reflex mirror, which none of the other MedFmt cameras have. The meter is nice, but the finder is fixed in place, so there are no alternative of using waist level or high mag finders; you only get eyelevel, much like todays APS-C dSLR.

My biggest gripes about the Pentax 645s...
1. The grip is fixed part of the body, and rather than being at the front part of the camera body it is at the REAR. That means that any long lenses make for a front heavy weight distribution, unlike the othe 645 cameras.
2. As a wedding shooter, the few leaf shutter lenses (which permit electronic flash synch to 1/500) lose the autometering functionality of the ambient meter

[Lightstream]

The Pentax 645 is the closest thing to a later 35mm automagic SLR in medium format. So adaptation to its is least foreign to 35mm shooter. It even has an autoreturn reflex mirror, which none of the other MedFmt cameras have. The meter is nice, but the finder is fixed in place, so there are no alternative of using waist level or high mag finders; you only get eyelevel, much like todays APS-C dSLR.

My biggest gripes about the Pentax 645s...
1. The grip is fixed part of the body, and rather than being at the front part of the camera body it is at the REAR. That means that any long lenses make for a front heavy weight distribution, unlike the othe 645 cameras.
2. As a wedding shooter, the few leaf shutter lenses (which permit electronic flash synch to 1/500) lose the autometering functionality of the ambient meter

Thanks Wilt, I appreciate you sharing your expertise in other formats. I feel that it's still an asset in today's time and age of APS-C DSLRs :)

I took a look at a Mamiya 645 and handled a Contax 645 today. (yes, I am aware that this would be like comparing an AE-1 to a 1DMk2 :mrgreen: but whatever I could get my hands on would suffice). Doesn't seem too foreign to me, I think I can handle it. The Pentax is a little bit on the pushbutton side whereas the other two are very much traditional MF cameras. I think the Contax has the autoreturn mirror - if I am not wrong, one without the auto return would stay locked up after the shot has been taken and you need to crank the film to lower the mirror? Dry-firing the Contax feels just like my 5D, mirror goes up, goes down.

What doesn't feel like the 5D.. the wonderful feel of the MF and aperture rings. It is so intuitive even to someone who has never used an aperture ring before, my left hand lands in the right place on the Planar 80/2.0 and I just dial it in. We gave up some things in the digital age.. I don't regret them per se, but it's good to experience something different.

Good to know about the downsides. This is more a toy for me though - all serious work gets handled by the DSLRs. Long lenses and high flash sync speeds will still remain the province of my digitals.

It's ironic that just a short while after my 1D2 (spray and pray at 8.5fps, all done, 853 frames in 2.5 hours), I suddenly feel the Zen bug of Slow Photography is biting me. I suddenly feel like I WANT to carry the tripod, stick the MF on it, take my time, get it 100% right in the camera, manually focus through the microprism/split image, compose like I mean it instead of window shopping. And there is something really appealing about the thought of being able to look through the big slides and see my stuff without the need of a computer. No Photoshop, no postprocessing, nobody carping because I shot JPEG instead of RAW (btw, that's because I try to get it right in camera even on a digital).

And the ability to do it on a $300 ebay Pentax.

If I really love it, I might invest in a 45/2.8 lens for it. That'd be like my EF 28/1.8 USM which is my glass of choice if I had to take a prime.

Something appealing indeed.. :)

[Wilt]

Well, best wishes in the pursuit of a medium format camera. It is good to hear that someone with a modern dSLR and the ability to machine gun at 8fps is also wanting something more methodic and slower paced.

[howzitboy]

get hasselblad! if u gonna go big, get the best!

[Wilt]

get hasselblad! if u gonna go big, get the best!

A word of wisdom...there are a lot of Hasselblads out there which had seen a lifetime of heavy professional usage, high mileage cameras. And there are a lot of Hasselblads out there which have had relatively low mileage in the hands of a hobbyist. The challenge is how to identify one from the other, in choosing a camera! EVERY brand has its Achilles heel, and Hassy is no exception! If I recall, backs are a Hassy Achilles heel, or the light seals on them. Repair records based on repair technician resports suggest that they break at about the same frequency as cameras made by other major MF makers (Bronica, Contax, Pentax, Mamiya).

[howzitboy]

funny thing about hasselblads, i have a beat up old 500cm that i used for my weddings and I went out and bought a brand new 503cw and 503cx for my replacements when that 500cm broke. Only problem, it NEVER broke! that camera would just go on and on and on for years w/out one problem. It looked horrible with all the leather falling off (hawaii weather does that to cameras) but it always worked like a charm.

even my backs had no problems either (with light leaks). Ive seen some shots from guys with light problems but nothing that would ruin the shot, just have to crop off a bit.

saddest part is all my medium format stuff is dying in my closet.....

[Lightstream]

get hasselblad! if u gonna go big, get the best!


Naw I already did that with the Canon ;) more L than I can cram into a single bag at once :mrgreen:

I am now looking for something to play with on a cheap budget. I might step up later - who knows? :)

[howzitboy]

did u look on ebay lately? those poor expensive hassels are selling for soo cheap, makes me sad.....

[airfrogusmc]

I shot with 500C/Ms for years. Zeiss glass. INCREDIBLE.