Another weird bride request-How to handle this one??

[Lin-z]

I don't know what it is. It seems like every bride I shoot here lately has some crazy demand after the wedding. I always fulfill my contract and they still come up with something. I know that part of the reason is that I am a somewhat cheap photographer, so I get alot of low end clients. Here is this weeks-


One of my last brides sent me a somewhat hostile email saying that she liked her wedding pictures, but is disappointed at how many she was given.

My contract states that the couple will be presented with 150 to 300 images. I gave this bride 225 images. MY END OF THE DEAL HELD UP!

She stated that she knows that every time I posed her and her groom and her family ESPECAILLY family groups and children, I took more than one photo. She is mad because " she paid for every photo I took that day and I am not withholding them from her"

YES- I take 3 or 4 especially with groups.


I explained to her that I take more than one photo of everything because not every images turns out to be a great image. I explained that with the groups almost everytime you pose them someone closes their eyes, opens their mouth doesn't look at the camera and that the children move around and look blurred, etc. I also explained that 2 out of 4 of her pictures have closed eyes, and that 2 out 4 are identical images.

She responded and says she wants all of the images because she plans to "crop out" people with closed eyes??? WTF?


I am not sure what to do about her. What would you guys do?

[tim]

I would resist, or depending how i'm feeling I might flat out refuse. I'd make sure she knows she has all the images that came out, and there's no point seeing the others because they're inferior duplicates.

[Lin-z]

I don't want to give them to her, mainly because with this wedding the church was very dimly lit and the color was CRAZY looking in the images. I had to adjust white balance in every photo and reduce noise. I would want to do that in the outtakes as well, because I would really hate it if ended up having one of those outtakes printed (she purchased a CD) and then she shows it off as an example of my work with noise and funkiness in it.

[mmahoney]

You have fulfilled your end of the contract and explained to the client why not every photo is suitable for use.

Her position that she paid for every photo you took that day is incorrect .. she paid for between 150 - 300 images as stated in the contract.

I go through this very carefully with each couple prior to booking and do not have a guaranteed minimum number in my contract. During the consult I make the point (several times) that quality is more important than quantity and that my judgement of the merit of the photos to be used in both the album and offered for printing is the final authority.

You simply cannot allow anyone other than yourself to edit & select photos .. the minute you put the discards in the hands of your clients is the minute you lose control over the most important aspect of any business .. the final product quality. Put the discards where they should be .. in the garbage can.
Mike

[Ray Marrero]

Do not give in. Your reputation is on the line. I am sure she will like an inferior photo and show all her friends you work. This you can not allow.

[cdifoto]

Tell her they're gone. You deleted the duds and there is no way to recover them. Actually doing it makes it true.

[Lin-z]

I agree with you guys fully

I don't want to give in, but I also don't want her bad mouthing me to future clients. I live in a very small town almost every client I have is a referral from another client. I don't advertise I get my work by word of mouth.

I know I am not going to give in- I just don't know how to explain that she is not getting her way, without making myself sound like a mean bitch

[liza]

You don't have to sound like a bitch. Just tell her, "I'm sorry if there was a miscommunication. I delivered 225 good images, which is within the number contracted. The others, which in my opinion did not adequately capture the joy of your day, have already been deleted permanently."

[bfnphoto]

I agree with everyone here! You are under no obligation to give her your "duds". If she is going to bad mouth because of this particular incident, then she will more than likely bad mouth about something else.
Just politely deline her request and do like what was said....you do not have them anymore and that is part of your Profession, not to give clients the "bad batch".

Heather

[sapearl]

Lin-z, you can be strong and firm without being nasty. Stick to your guns. It is your prerogative as the Professional Photography to deliver high quality work. If she is really that strange, then she'll have a hard time bad mouthing you around town because people already know her for the person she is. You are trying to be very nice and accomodating - but unfortunately at the expense of your nerves and stomach lining. Time to buck up and put on a firm jaw.

I will make this very easy for. If you see her or if you talk to her, just pretent that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US is right behind you, nodding in agreement and backing you up. Now, see how easy that is? How could she possibly disagree with ALL of us?;) - Stu

[bfnphoto]

2 thumbs up Stu!
You have everyone here on POTN right there behind you!
Sorta like the Verizon commercials....the network following you around! :)

[thekid24]

I would agree, do not give them to her.

You help up your part of the deal, and I think 225 is a damn good amount of photos.

I had a similar situation with my first time, I was asked how many photos were taken (after the wedding was pretty much over with) and I told her nearly 500 but explained that I would give her 100-150 photos, which was in the contract.

Later on after I gave her the photos she called and asked where one particular photo was, and I had to tell her it didnt work out the way it was intended.

And sometimes it doesnt. That just happens.

[thekid24]

2 thumbs up Stu!
You have everyone here on POTN right there behind you!
Sorta like the Verizon commercials....the network following you around! :)
I can hear you now:p

[sapearl]

Thanks! You know, I was trying to remember which Cel phone commercial that was. I knew it wasn't the 4 geeks in the van.... although maybe we could hire those nerds to take that bride for a little ride and talk her some sense :lol: .

2 thumbs up Stu!
You have everyone here on POTN right there behind you!
Sorta like the Verizon commercials....the network following you around! :)

[thekid24]

Thanks! You know, I was trying to remember which Cel phone commercial that was. I knew it wasn't the 4 geeks in the van.... although maybe we could hire those nerds to take that bride for a little ride and talk her some sense :lol: .
Thats Alltel:D just so ya know;)

[Lin-z]

I will make this very easy for. If you see her or if you talk to her, just pretent that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US is right behind you, nodding in agreement and backing you up. Now, see how easy that is? How could she possibly disagree with ALL of us?;) - Stu


Thanks guys.

[Coastwatch203]

[quote=Lin-z;3482201]I don't know what it is. It seems like every bride I shoot here lately has some crazy demand after the wedding. :evil:

- The Bride's name wasnt Suzanne was it??? - sounds like someone I was married to once!!!! !@#~!

:evil:

[islandphoto]

I don't think you should give her all of them... if she wanted this she should have requested it before the shoot and then you could have post processed accordingly. I really don't think that "the customer is always right" in this situation.

[Nicole Faith]

Truthfully, I have a slightly different opinion on this.

When I speak to clients - I find out how they feel about it first. Do they really want to look through 200-300 images, being that some will almost be complete duplicates of others? If they do - because many actually do like to do this and take the time to do this - I offer them every photo. However - the every photo offer are the untouched images and they understand that.

I, myself, don't mind looking through tons of images. (especially if they were of my own wedding) Some people just like to do that and you have to remember that even if you are the artist here and do have that eye, the photographer isn't the client. Maybe there is something special in a photo that you may have passed over. I don't want to be the one to tell them it's not good enough if they like it enough to buy copies of it.

This is, of course, just how I do things. But many people are very pleased with the idea and just because you offer it doesn't mean they will take you up on it. I charge for letting them see all the images and they are not close to being a large format size in quality - it's just for viewing. I took the dang photos - I don't mind if they see them. If someone's eyes are closed or the light isn't just right - the clients probably won't buy the print anyways.

Again this is just how I work though and I don't know if it works for everyone. I am not a studio and I work word of mouth so... hope it gives some insight though?

[LBaldwin]

Do not give in and give he ammo to take you to small claims court with.
I would tell her in no uncertain terms that she has no editorial rights to the image including altering them after the fact...

Les

[sando]

Personally, I want to start giving the B&G the 'duffers' with the offending 'closed-eye-people' photos in a designated area (whether it's a folder on the online proof or on a seperate folder on the CD). Just make sure sure they realise that they're crap photos - but they still get them anyway.

[cdifoto]

Truthfully, I have a slightly different opinion on this.

When I speak to clients - I find out how they feel about it first. Do they really want to look through 200-300 images, being that some will almost be complete duplicates of others? If they do - because many actually do like to do this and take the time to do this - I offer them every photo. However - the every photo offer are the untouched images and they understand that.

I, myself, don't mind looking through tons of images. (especially if they were of my own wedding) Some people just like to do that and you have to remember that even if you are the artist here and do have that eye, the photographer isn't the client. Maybe there is something special in a photo that you may have passed over. I don't want to be the one to tell them it's not good enough if they like it enough to buy copies of it.

This is, of course, just how I do things. But many people are very pleased with the idea and just because you offer it doesn't mean they will take you up on it. I charge for letting them see all the images and they are not close to being a large format size in quality - it's just for viewing. I took the dang photos - I don't mind if they see them. If someone's eyes are closed or the light isn't just right - the clients probably won't buy the print anyways.

Again this is just how I work though and I don't know if it works for everyone. I am not a studio and I work word of mouth so... hope it gives some insight though?

Hmmm so you'd show the clients these?

186614

186615


I wouldn't! I don't want my clients finding out I'm human. ;)

[sapearl]

I discovered a couple of decades ago that even if you explain to a client, that "this is one of the bad ones," or "pay no attention to the shadows in this one, because this is the good one over hear, etc., etc..." most will still regard these "duds" as indicative of your quality level. Or in THEIR minds, lack of ability. The don't get it.

No thank you - pure and simple, I DON'T show bad pictures to clients. I do good work and only show examples that support that premise. Why do otherwise?

[sando]

I wouldnt show duffers like CDI showed above.

never let them see your bad work.

[tim]

I've actually just given the "duds" to the bride, on her request, for the first time ever. She noticed them when we were editing her album and asked for them, just to have a record of things that happened that didn't make it into the proofs. I told her i'd think about it. Later she offered to pay for them, so I said sure she can have them, in low resolution so they're not printable, under the condition that they're kept for the use of just herself and her husband.

I culled them down so anything out of focus or with bad exposure was gone, so all she really got where the boring photos and duplicates. This customer also purchased a finished Queensberry album, so that's what they'll show people.

I doubt i'll let people know these even exist in future, but this time I made some money out of the outtakes and a few minutes effort!

[sapearl]

There's a very easy way for you to avoid this situation in the future. I started this practice years ago and it works like a charm. During my initial interview with the bride, I tell her:

1. You will receive at least xxx proofs taken during your wedding day.
2. I always shoot more than what you receive, to allow for people blinking, children moving, etc.
3. I delete all my bad shots. This includes what I mentioned before, plus flash misfires, OOF shots, pictures with bad composition. I will not show you any of these.

In fact, I always deliver more proofs than what I've promised. But this upfront warning tells them IN ADVANCE what they can expect from me. If they don't like it, they hire somebody else.

But my point is, I DON'T show bad, unrefined or unfinished work. That would be like an orchestra furnishing a CD of all it's early mistakes and warmup rehearsals to the audience the same night they play their polished concert hall rendition. I take the position that I don't want the client seeing what they "imagine" to be missed shots. They will only see what I deem to be presentable.

[LeesaB]

I do what Stu does..

I basically explain, we shoot over 1k shots, easily, but you will receive betten 500-600 shots, they always get more. Much more.

I explain the same way...and it has never been questioned.

[sapearl]

Way to go Lisa :D ! You lay down the law up front , and they can't come back at you later. Oh, they can try to cause a little aggravation perhaps but they won't have a leg to stand on.

I do what Stu does..

I basically explain, we shoot over 1k shots, easily, but you will receive betten 500-600 shots, they always get more. Much more.

I explain the same way...and it has never been questioned.

[Samitude]

I took an engagement session for a couple one time and the bride accidentally saw one of my "bad" pictures and wanted to keep it. It was one of her absolute favorite photos! You just never know. The worse thing about it was some camera shake.

[drogos]

the less they pay the more they want ...that's how it worked for me most of the time when i was shooting my first season ...i have raised my prices and now at least i know that any extra work required is justified by the money paid by the client

[Lin-z]

the less they pay the more they want ...that's how it worked for me most of the time when i was shooting my first season ...i have raised my prices and now at least i know that any extra work required is justified by the money paid by the client

This is my problem. My prices are too low. I have been slowly raising them, but they are still low end. So I get low end demanding clients.

I plan to finish out 2007 with my current rate and then go up for the 2008 season.

[Lin-z]

Ok here is what I am emailing someone let me know if it sounds ok..


I hope you are happy with your wedding photography. I will get your CD together and mail it out next week. On the disk you will receive all of the images I posted to my website. As far as any other images. I did not post those and will not show those because they are simply not good or are duplicates. I always shoot more than what you receive, to allow for people blinking, children moving, and things such as that. I delete all of my bad shoots. This includes what I mentioned before plus flash misfires, out of focus shots, pictures with bad composition, and duplicates. Most of the images that I did not show are because they are exact duplicates of what is posted on the website. I'm sorry if there was a miscommunication. I delivered 220 good images, which is within the number contracted. The others, which in my opinion did not adequately capture the joy of your day, have already been deleted permanently. Again I am sorry it there was a miscommunication on my part. Thanks again for having and I do hope you enjoy your wedding photography. I will get the CD out to you next week.

[sblais]

This is my problem. My prices are too low. I have been slowly raising them, but they are still low end. So I get low end demanding clients.

I plan to finish out 2007 with my current rate and then go up for the 2008 season.

It's worth it. I'd change your prices now. Don't wait. I was still cheap this year. I'm working my a$$ off with somewhat demanding clients (some are nice, some are a pain ;)) for little money. I recently (2-3 weeks ago) increased significantly my prices (about x 1.5 and more) and since, I got two recent inquiries for weddings (both for October this year - one where I'm already booked and another for which I will meet the bride-to-be and her fiancé soon!).

The reason why I chose to change my prices now is that I don't get a lot of inquiries at this time of the year (it's getting late for 2007 and it's early for 2008). I prefer to avoid having inquiries with older prices and then raising them before anything in confirmed. This way, your prices are already set for 2008 and you can start that year fresh. No need to say things like: well, it's true that last week I was cheaper, but now I'm charging twice as much. Still want to sign the contract?

Just my $0.01 worth of advice ;)

[sapearl]

Pretty good Lin-z .... nicely written. Just a few minor things: "As far as any other images." is a sentence fragment. That's not a biggie, but conflicts with what is otherwise pretty decent writing.

You express apologies for any miscommunication. That is good customer relations and shows a certain humility. You restate it later on, which in my mind seems to detract from it a little. I agree with what you are trying to do, but suggest the following instead: "Again, I regret any other misunderstanding concerning the proofs that were to be provided."

You may also want to consider adding: "This is commonly accepted practice throughout the wedding photography industry." Now I realize this is not true in every case and in this forum, but for purposes of stating a strong case for yourself I believe it could be useful. Just my .02

[Bob Charnier]

O.K., I am getting into this one late. Since you already have great advice I will offer what most of us would probably really want to do.......Take the worst picture of her and make it even more hideous in PS. Then show it to her and ask her if she would like you to post it on your website. Then tell her that is how you would feel knowing that something you did that was not up to your standards was able to be shown to others.

[Big Mike]

I agree with what has been said.

On the other hand, you could find one of the out-takes where she had her eyes closed, or was making a stupid face...print that up, with 'Out Take' right on it...and give her that as an example of all the ones you didn't give her. :D

[mmahoney]

It's one thing to make a point and another to make your work look bad to prove that point .. keep it simple and state your case verbally.
Mike

[sapearl]

Bob, you are truly evil and demented - my kind of photographer :lol: :lol: .

O.K., I am getting into this one late. Since you already have great advice I will offer what most of us would probably really want to do.......Take the worst picture of her and make it even more hideous in PS. Then show it to her and ask her if she would like you to post it on your website. Then tell her that is how you would feel knowing that something you did that was not up to your standards was able to be shown to others.

[Bob Charnier]

Thanks Stu!!! I live for revenge..........

[tony fanning]

Thats why I don`t have the amount of images in the contract!!

[bildeb0rg]

I would be tempted to give her everything. After I had applied a colour cast, a reduction in contrast and sharpness, then watermark them "72 dpi not suitable for printing". Then explain that they would be "recoverable" for an additional fee, to cover the extra work involved. Or am I just mean?

[Mike Reynolds]

Without a doubt don't release crappy shots! loose them because they may come back to haunt you!

[Gatorboy]

When the bride hires a videographer at her wedding, I'm sure they don't get all the raw footage -- the video is edited and they are presented with the best footage of the day. This is no different.

[sapearl]

I've worked with dozens of videographers over the past 30 years and will attest to that. Their FINISHED video is normally around 2 hours in length - the last thing they want to do is subject their client to extra hours of poor outtakes.

When the bride hires a videographer at her wedding, I'm sure they don't get all the raw footage -- the video is edited and they are presented with the best footage of the day. This is no different.

[song4themoon]

You held up your side of the deal. The multible shots are for your workflow and security.

And anyway.. she cant just crop your pictures as she likes, she cant modify them, unless you allow you clients to do so

[IODebbie]

I'm way late on this one, but if you haven't already sent the e-mail, I'd change the "my miscommunication" or "there was a miscommunication on my party" to "the misunderstanding" or "there was a misunderstanding" - change the "my" to "a" and the "miscommunication" to "misunderstanding."

I seriously doubt that you miscommunicated anything - more likely, she just assumed and it was an incorrect assumption on her part, but I also understand the public relations side, so calling it a misunderstanding is much better.

Sorry, sometimes, the lawyer in me just won't shut up.