setup for family portrait

[canoflan]

If you don't mind, I am looking for a little additional guidance on the settings I should use for my 5D and Metz 58 flash for an upcoming 17 person family portrait.

Here is the scenario:
17 people
Inside a living room (ceilings may or may not be light colored so I need to plan for no ceiling bounce)
Average ambient light (i.e. a couple end table lamps with 60 watt bulbs and an overhead light from a ceiling fan)

Equipment:
Canon 5D
Tripod+flash bracket
Metz 58
Remote shutter release for camera
Milagrid diffuser
Lens: 24-105L f/4

I am estimating I will be approx. 7-12 feet from the group.

This isn't necessarily wedding related, but here goes...

Here is my plan and tell me where I may be off: I plan to setup the camera on the tripod, etc... and the flash on Auto mode (I hear it works very well with the Metz and I have been experiencing good results with it in this test phase), angle flash to ceiling at 45 degrees using Milagrid but no front deflector [the Milagrid has a front deflector, but I have heard only outside would I need it]. I don't plan to use the Metz's secondary reflector since it is rumored it casts the evil "flashy look."

If the photo will end up outside and we get some nice shady areas, I probably would not use flash at all (i.e. if the group is under a patio, etc...); however, if they are back lit by the sun (it will be midday for this photo), I will use the same setup, Auto mode, 0 to +1 Flash Exposure Comp, and the Mila grid with the front deflector.

Any thoughts would be most appreciated.

[bcap]

For inside, I would say position them by a big bay-window (like most living rooms have) so there is nice, even, natural light spilling in. Turn off all the other lights (i.e. lamps, overhead ceilings lights, etc) as they will cast light on parts of the group, giving your white balance issues. I suggest grabbing some sort of diffuser for your light - something like the sto-fen diffuser and point is 45 degrees up.

For outside, use the flash no matter what - for fill. Shade would be ideal, but if you can't, then put the sun behind them and fill in their faces with the flash.

Best of luck.

[SuzyView]

Love those tight room shots. 17 people, 3 rows with the main people sitting maybe. Put the tall ones in the center and go down on both sides. Use the natural light on one side and the flash off on the other, off shoe from above with diffuser. I agree with using the flash outside no matter what. Make sure the area where the group is standing is framed properly.

[bcap]

Oh, Suzy, thanks for reminding me. If I may suggest, have the tallest people in the front (sitting/lower) and the shortest people in the back.

You ask "Why? That's crazy! The tall people are always in the back". Well, tbh, I don't know where that concept every came from! If you have the tall people in the front and the short people in the back, there is less of a difference in height between the front and back row. Whereas if you have the tall people in the back and the short people in the front, there is a huge height differnce between the front and back row.

Just my opinion I suppose but that's always how I do it.

[canoflan]

Thanks so much for the help guys. Actually, I was reading a book on portrait styles and they suggested first to have the group to get arranged how they are most comfortable and if they are not sure, then arrange them. I plan to sort this out in a pre-shoot meeting with the client tomorrow night and also take a look around the house for location opportunities inside and out. The window idea is good because it will be mid day so no sun directly in a window and it should be bright enough, even if overcast.

[suecassidy]

Thanks so much for the help guys. Actually, I was reading a book on portrait styles and they suggested first to have the group to get arranged how they are most comfortable and if they are not sure, then arrange them. I plan to sort this out in a pre-shoot meeting with the client tomorrow night and also take a look around the house for location opportunities inside and out. The window idea is good because it will be mid day so no sun directly in a window and it should be bright enough, even if overcast.

I would NEVER, EVER allow a large group to "get arranged how they are most comfortable." NEVER. I believe that large group poses need to be "built" one by one, with the most important people in the center and everyone else added to surround them, one by one. You will add people one at a time so you can consider such things as:

1. Are they tall? Consider equalizing things by having them kneel or front row or whatever.
2. Are they wearing distracting clothing? You may want to hide them or minimize that clothing.
3. Are they overweight and self conscious about it? That may influence where you put them.
4. Are they elderly? Not ideal candidates for casually sitting on the floor.
5. Are they young and squirmy? Find a lap for them to sit on. Squirmy kids get posed last. Let them run around while you are doing this.
6. Teenage daughter's denim skirt too short? She needs to be standing.

and so it goes. But each person gets added one by one as you build the pose. You can change things when you have it all built, as needed, to plug the "holes" etc. but you will have a well thought out foundation for your group if you follow that principle of building one at a time.

Just a wild thought. Laugh a lot and enjoy it. If YOU laugh a lot, it will show in THEIR photo. Really. No matter what happens, they all love each other most of the time, and will love that they have a photograph of everyone together. sue cassidy

[canoflan]

Thanks Suecassidy. I will try a version of your technique. I have feeling that since they called me they are looking for someone to get them organized vs. a snapshot from Uncle Tony:).

[SuzyView]

I love family pictures where the colors are somehow coordinated. Whether you go all the way or just white shirts and dark pants, it's up to you, but those end up being the best ones I've seen.

[SuzyView]

Forgot. This is my niece, Lizz Davis and her website. Her specialty is family group shots. Here is her website. That may help you a little.

http://www.lizzdavisphotography.com/index.html

She uses a Canon 30D for her work.

[canoflan]

Suzyview, those are really good. I actually purchased a book on family portrait photography and your niece's arrangements of the people look really similar. I plan to sit down with the client to night and show them some portrait styles that are a bit conservative in that book (the picture will be of a 90 year old grandmother and her family (a mini family reunion of sorts)), therefore, I naturally will be indicating the whole portrait will center on her. I thing it would look nice to have each nuclear family (i.e. mom dad and kids) arranged close together, but all building off the grandmother.

Actually, I wish that I had a large porch with shade, with an area big enough for the family to gather around their grandmother while she sits in a rocking chair, or on a wood bench so that some could stand to the side, building up to the grandmother with some behind her with a couple people's hand on her shoulders, or even a couple holding her hand so that I could do it all with ambient shade light.

Regardless, I am getting ideas so that when I see what I have to work with, I can easily pick up from there and talk to the client about it before the shoot. I think that if the client sees that I have some ideas based on their preferences to get a nice portrait done and can walk them around their own house and talk about idea, they will have a better sense that I have thought about it and I won't seem so inexperienced.

I didn't mention (I don't think) that this is my first paid photo shoot for a large family (I have done a Christmas card in the past, but that was pretty easy and I have learned so much since then.

Regardless, I am using the tips from the portrait book as well about clothing, dealing with children who don't want their picture taken, and the family's preferences (even though I will be running the portrait).

[Buckeye1]

I would NEVER, EVER allow a large group to "get arranged how they are most comfortable." NEVER. I believe that large group poses need to be "built" one by one, with the most important people in the center and everyone else added to surround them, one by one. You will add people one at a time so you can consider such things as:

1. Are they tall? Consider equalizing things by having them kneel or front row or whatever.
2. Are they wearing distracting clothing? You may want to hide them or minimize that clothing.
3. Are they overweight and self conscious about it? That may influence where you put them.
4. Are they elderly? Not ideal candidates for casually sitting on the floor.
5. Are they young and squirmy? Find a lap for them to sit on. Squirmy kids get posed last. Let them run around while you are doing this.
6. Teenage daughter's denim skirt too short? She needs to be standing.

and so it goes. But each person gets added one by one as you build the pose. You can change things when you have it all built, as needed, to plug the "holes" etc. but you will have a well thought out foundation for your group if you follow that principle of building one at a time.

Just a wild thought. Laugh a lot and enjoy it. If YOU laugh a lot, it will show in THEIR photo. Really. No matter what happens, they all love each other most of the time, and will love that they have a photograph of everyone together. sue cassidy

Suse has years of experience in photography...and it shows! I did one recently (mine own), and we had 22 people (9 kids). I built the group with my parents in the center, the rest of us are around them, Some sit, some kneel, and some stand to have different level. I also built the sub-groups my family members...so this way, my brothers (or sisters) don't have to say here is my boy and there is my girl and back here is my other boy, etc...

[LisaLayne]

I would NEVER, EVER allow a large group to "get arranged how they are most comfortable." NEVER. I believe that large group poses need to be "built" one by one, with the most important people in the center and everyone else added to surround them, one by one. You will add people one at a time so you can consider such things as:

1. Are they tall? Consider equalizing things by having them kneel or front row or whatever.
2. Are they wearing distracting clothing? You may want to hide them or minimize that clothing.
3. Are they overweight and self conscious about it? That may influence where you put them.
4. Are they elderly? Not ideal candidates for casually sitting on the floor.
5. Are they young and squirmy? Find a lap for them to sit on. Squirmy kids get posed last. Let them run around while you are doing this.
6. Teenage daughter's denim skirt too short? She needs to be standing.

and so it goes. But each person gets added one by one as you build the pose. You can change things when you have it all built, as needed, to plug the "holes" etc. but you will have a well thought out foundation for your group if you follow that principle of building one at a time.

Just a wild thought. Laugh a lot and enjoy it. If YOU laugh a lot, it will show in THEIR photo. Really. No matter what happens, they all love each other most of the time, and will love that they have a photograph of everyone together. sue cassidy


Sue... you are right on target! Never, never, never let the subjects pose themselves... you'll be in for the cluster-flock of your life!!! Carry some small posing stools and USE them!

One thing I would tell you is to always, always, always do a pre-sitting consultation. Clothing for a group that size is of utmost importance.

[tim]

When doing multi-row group photos a flash can be your worst enemy if you're not careful. If flash is the main light and the rows are spaced far apart relative to the distance from the front row to you the back row will be dark. Bouncing the flash inside is a solution, and don't have much of it going direct. Consider shadows when you do that. Outside just don't use the flash, or have it at FEC-1 or so.

PRACTICE IN ADVANCE. All it takes is 3-4 people. One person in the middle where the front row would be, one near the side at the back, and a couple more randomly, probably behind and either side of the person in front - they're to check for shadows. Better to learn with a few friends or close family than spend hours in photoshop later.

[canoflan]

Thanks for all the advice.

I had the pre-sitting consultation this past Friday and all went well. The family didn't really understand how the color coordination could really create a cohesive portrait; so they went from not really minding to what they wore to deciding on a mixture of denim and white. I told them that we can use various techniques to hide those that may have clothing that doesn't work and it won't be that big a deal.

They were a bit surprised at my organization and covering all the bases with them (i.e. any pets, any problem children and how to handle them, names of all those in the group, deliverables, number of shots I plan to take of each pose (only 1 pose for the large group), etc...). I have read so much about all this and simply made a checklist as I read and organized it in to a neat sheet of paper to cover. I left them a book I was looking at with good family posing so that at least the client can have an idea of what we are shooting for for inside portraits in front of a decorated wall. They really liked B&W and I plan to show them both color and B&W when it is done (they really don't know how simply it is to create B&W now days). I love to organize things and since I love photography, this is a blessing to get to do this. I didn't discuss money again because I will wait till they bring it up again after they get the pictures. I know that I could probably charge $400-$600, but I offered (since they are friends) to do it free, but they insist on paying. If they ask what I am charging, I will tell them to pay what they wish. I could give them rates of some comparable work from other photographers, but since this is my first big family portrait, I don't plan to really know what to charge. Any thoughts on this? I think that my cost is easily $250-$300 for the time (4 hours prep, site, post processing), equipment, expertise, post-processing, deliverables; so if they press me for what I would take to cover my costs, I will tell them $275, but only if they insist. When you are dealing with the parents of friends, they expect to pay, but you have no idea what that amount is in their heads. I perhaps could ask them, "what would you expect to pay for this whole package," and work from there about cost, etc....

I expressed to them that the Grandmother is the most important part of the portrait and we will build around her sitting comfortably in the middle, or just offset to the left or right. They really are more toward the conservative side.

The portrait will be in their living room with the fireplace and a couple of nice curio cabinets and other decorations behind them.

I plan to of course build off the grandmother and to keep the smaller family units (i.e. her son's and daughter's families) fairly close together as was mentioned above for easy identification (sort of smaller family portraits inside a larger group family portrait style).

We plan to talk about 2-3 days before the shoot date for me to get a list of approximately all the groups that want to have their picture taken.

Their living room has very light, tan walls, so it will work very well with bouncing light.

Since their living room is a bit smaller than mine at home, I will use just about the same settings. I practiced this weekend and this is the settings plan for my camera: Canon 5D manual mode, flash white balance setting, RAW, CF 14 on AVERAGE, 580EX on TTL and FEC +1 stop, 1/30 (since I will have the ambbient light a bit from the house's rear windows, I want to allow some of that to help lift shadows as well), ISO 400, f/8 (to keep most in focus), camera at eye level of Grandmother, and about 6 feet from group on tripod with flash bracket (so I can use about 40mm on my 24-105 f/4L lens), flash with Milagrid for diffusion pointed 60 degrees toward ceiling with no front deflector (it is recommended only to use the front deflector outside since this diffuser is so good at allowing light through and spreading it).

If you have further suggestions, please let me know. I have learned so much from the above. Thanks to all of you.

Pat

[suecassidy]

Sounds like you have it all well in hand. When people ignore my clothing suggestions and I end up with every color and hue, I suggest printing in Black and White, so color becomes a mute point. I find the older the group, the more the aversion to B&W, so I'm glad they are on board. I wonder if it is because they see B&W as a step backwards, since THEY remember the invention of color photography and wonder why anyone would want to go back to B&W. Anyhoo, good luck with your project. Post pics. sue cassidy

[canoflan]

Sounds like you have it all well in hand. When people ignore my clothing suggestions and I end up with every color and hue, I suggest printing in Black and White, so color becomes a mute point. I find the older the group, the more the aversion to B&W, so I'm glad they are on board. I wonder if it is because they see B&W as a step backwards, since THEY remember the invention of color photography and wonder why anyone would want to go back to B&W. Anyhoo, good luck with your project. Post pics. sue cassidy

Actually, regarding B&W, the husband of my client mentioned how the B&W created a very cohesive and uniform sense while keeping the individuality of the group. He mentioned the same thing you did about how if the group is varied on color coordination, it appears we could fix things by going B&W. Since I plan to give them both, I think they will be covered.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Pat

[SuzyView]

Is it possible to see your final result. I'm curious.