life expectancy

[Kamra 1]

How long will a photo last, as opposed to a dvd or cd? what are some of you people doing to preserve the images you keep and what info are you giving your clients as to how they may preserve the work you provide?

[picturecrazy]

You mean prints?

My shop uses Kodak Endura paper, which is supposed to last 75 years provided it is not exposed to direct sun. The metallic papers are supposed to be like 100 years.

Discs burnt by a regular cd/dvd RW can last a long time, or can last only a year!! Don't buy the uber-cheap CD/DVD's, go for a better known brand name. My cheapo discs I burnt 5 years ago now get lots of errors in all drives I try. Just tell them to make plenty of backups and do it every couple years or so. Give a copy to their parents or other people in case they get flooded or something.

[grego]

Like anything that can be duplicated, especially in the digital age, you should have more than one copy. For the very fact that scratching can occur and corrupt a disc, there should be at least a copy somewhere else if its important.

[rhys]

I suspect the file formats of RAW and JPEG might not be around in 20 years time.

[tim]

Prints - longer than me.
CDs - I don't trust them at all. I assume 6 months.

[Kamra 1]

OK. Now, hypothetically, what do you all think about putting these images on a flash drive and tucking it away (I'm referring to the bride and groom) for preservation? I know this idea is kind of "out there" but the idea was brought to me and I said I'd ask. Thanks.

[picturecrazy]

If I'm not mistaken, even flash drives (or compact flash cards for that matter) have an internal battery to keep a charge running though the memory chips to preserve it's binary state. Like all batteries, someday it will die.

[overclock]

If I'm not mistaken, even flash drives (or compact flash cards for that matter) have an internal battery to keep a charge running though the memory chips to preserve it's binary state. Like all batteries, someday it will die.
Nope. It is just a static type of memory. Your computer uses dynamic memory that needs juice to operate. Flash memory doesn't. Different types for different appliations. Imagine how fast they could make a CF card if it required a very tiny battery source. Probably 1,000x.

[Ronald S. Jr.]

No idea how long the paper will last, but my R1800's manual said that the ink wouldn't fade for 200 years. I like that.

[picturecrazy]

Nope. It is just a static type of memory. Your computer uses dynamic memory that needs juice to operate. Flash memory doesn't. Different types for different appliations. Imagine how fast they could make a CF card if it required a very tiny battery source. Probably 1,000x.

well then, I've been misinformed. Never looked into the hardware architecture of a CF card before. Maybe I should take a look sometime. (I'm a nerd)

[grego]

OK. Now, hypothetically, what do you all think about putting these images on a flash drive and tucking it away (I'm referring to the bride and groom) for preservation? I know this idea is kind of "out there" but the idea was brought to me and I said I'd ask. Thanks.

Flash memory is awfully expensive for storage. If i got married, I'd have files on my desktop, disc and a backup HD. Yeah, i'm crazy paranoid.

[cdifoto]

Prints - longer than me.
CDs - I don't trust them at all. I assume 6 months.

I just pulled images off a 2 year old CD and I have software CDs from 1998 that still work.

[Kamra 1]

Grego: I heard that. I just got myself hooked up with Norton Ghost and a new 160 gig hard drive. I have it set to back up every Sunday at 3am. I'm going to start backing up every single folder on cd or dvd, depending on the space required.

[GertS]

The layer of DVDs / CDs is a mixture of several different plastics and when music CDs were introduced, the industry believed that this is not changing and gave a "life span" of forever. Now the proof is given that this is not correct. :(

Cheap production in Asia due pressure of reducing costs, delivers at the moment very low quality CDs / DVDS for storage. :mad:

I had brand label DVDs (TDK), burned very slow (which is better for quailty), checked after the burning for correct storage, which had file errors just 4 weeks after that and couldn't be read. :evil: As I had the files still on my laptop, so no loss. :)

The best "long time storage" is either prints from a quality lab or from a printer with pigmented ink.

Myself I keep my files on a RAID 5 with 4 drives + several externals backups. It's important that the drives stay cool, as heat reduces the life span of drives too.
Some cases for external HDs just cook the drives that you burn your fingers when touching the drive (Maxtor, the build in ventilator is a bad joke). :evil:

[grego]

I had brand label DVDs (TDK), burned very slow (which is better for quailty), checked after the burning for correct storage, which had file errors just 4 weeks after that and couldn't be read. :evil: As I had the files still on my laptop, so no loss. :)

There are burning programs like Nero's that have verification. The only discs that I ever had errors on have been ones that didn't pass the verficiation process.

I would recommend Verbatim DVD/CDs. They have served me the most consistent.

Grego: I heard that. I just got myself hooked up with Norton Ghost and a new 160 gig hard drive. I have it set to back up every Sunday at 3am. I'm going to start backing up every single folder on cd or dvd, depending on the space required.

That's a good start. Having files on at least 2 separate HD's is always a good way to make sure your data is protected.

[jothefish]

I have two RAIDS, one as a main drive and one as a backup and then I backup the backup every time we travel... I used to use DVD's but it just ended up taking up so much time. My brother works in the recording industry and told me to only use gold DVD's if I used any..
When I give photos on DVD - I tell people to put them on their computers and back them up... if thye do or not - I have no idea... but I always keep their photos as well... just in case.

[GertS]

There are burning programs like Nero's that have verification. The only discs that I ever had errors on have been ones that didn't pass the verficiation process.

I would recommend Verbatim DVD/CDs. They have served me the most consistent.



Thanks Grego, but I do always a verification with all burned CDs / DVDs.

Just last week I had a problem with one printable Verbatim CD, the verification haid said ok (I burn them with 16* speed), but a week later I got the CD back due read error. I couldn't read it either with the same drive I burned it. :(

But it's really rare that I have a problem with Verbatim CDs. About 3 in several hundred CDs.

[Kamra 1]

GertS: I use the Canon i9900 printer for my smaller jobs. I'll have to start using a good lab eventually since I'm jumping back into the wedding industry. What do you think of that printer and what is a good lab to use? Please, anyone feel free to jump in as this is a question many can benefit from. Just remember I'm in the States. Thanks: Tony

[Kamra 1]

Grego: I've had no problems with Verbatim either. I sometimes pick up Memorex out of habit or convenience. How do these hold up on the average?

[GertS]

GertS: I use the Canon i9900 printer for my smaller jobs. I'll have to start using a good lab eventually since I'm jumping back into the wedding industry. What do you think of that printer and what is a good lab to use? Please, anyone feel free to jump in as this is a question many can benefit from. Just remember I'm in the States. Thanks: Tony

Tony,

as far as I know uses the Canon i9900 the type 8 inks, which are dye inks, these are not UV resistant. As long as you keep your prints dry and at a dark place, they are fine. Otherwise your prints fade after about one year, depending on the UV radiation they get.
I have the i965 which uses the type 8 inks, and I can see clearly the damage by UV after months of exposure to sun light.

Some use sprays for protecting against UV light, but tests turned out that just one (really expensive) spray from Hahnenmuehle (they produce expensive high quality printer paper) lowers the danger. It protects against moisture too. There were prints of that paper for months in mud during the New Orleans floodings, when found and cleaned they had nearly no damage. :eek:

It's always a combination of the ink, the paper and the conditions which gives the maximal life span of a print. Same with the work of labs, there are differences too.

Good luck
Gert

[liza]

I just pulled images off a 2 year old CD and I have software CDs from 1998 that still work.

This has pretty much been my experience as well with CD's. As for prints, I have family photos from the late 19th century which are, contrary to popular belief, older than I am. ;)

[grego]

Thanks Grego, but I do always a verification with all burned CDs / DVDs.

Just last week I had a problem with one printable Verbatim CD, the verification haid said ok (I burn them with 16* speed), but a week later I got the CD back due read error. I couldn't read it either with the same drive I burned it. :(

But it's really rare that I have a problem with Verbatim CDs. About 3 in several hundred CDs.

That's pretty good. I'm more prone to using their DVDs but also at a fairly slow speed. :)

Grego: I've had no problems with Verbatim either. I sometimes pick up Memorex out of habit or convenience. How do these hold up on the average?

Haven't used Memorex in a while but I didn't have many problems with them when I did use them. But Verbatims are priced fairly and I have had good luck with them so i stick with them.

[raymushgrush]

There are cd's and dvd's that are made to meet archival standards. They are commonly referred to as archival gold cd's or dvd's. Do a search on google for archival gold and you will get lots of useful info. The archival gold cd's have a live expectancy of 300 years. The archival gold dvd's have a life expectancy of 100 years. Dvd's have a shorter life expectancy as compared to a cd because they have more data written at a much higher density, which increases the chances for problems.

The archival gold cd's and dvd's are about 5 times more expensive than your typical memorex brand. Then again, You Pay For What You Get and You Get What You Pay For.

[danpass]

well then, I've been misinformed. Never looked into the hardware architecture of a CF card before. Maybe I should take a look sometime. (I'm a nerd)



Nerd card .....





REVOKED!








;)











I believe, in the 'backup' industry, that Hard Drives are still THE archival medium. I use mirrored drives at the moment (Not RAID, I use Microsoft Synctoy).




Check my sig for a "Backups" thread if interested



.

[pwm2]

I recently started to transfer a lot of old CD-R disks to newer media. I have scanned through about 30 disks - all about 10 years old - and still no read errors.

Flash memory normally don't guarantee more than 10 years, but like most other media, they age less if stored cold. But then again, almost all media ages less if stored at a low temperature.

The advantage with digital storage is that the media sizes constantly grows, so it is easy to copy old media to newer media now and then - both to refresh the data and to make sure it is stored in a future-safe format.

Note that when using Nero or other programs to verify a disk, that doesn't really tell anything about the burn quality. You know that you can read the disk right now, but not how much of the redundant "repair" information that was needed when reading the data. If much of the error-correction information is needed directly after the disk is burned, then the disk will give read errors quite soon!

Use a drive that supports bit error statistics and then test with a couple of different media (and different recording speeds) to check which combination that has the least numbers of bit errors.

There are also a number of programs available than can write disks with extra error correction information. The disks will fit less, but with special programs the probability of data loss will be a lot less.

[jerrybsmith]

I think I'm over the top but feel good about my system. I back up raw files on to quality DVD's the day after the wedding, I have a simple program that automatically backs up all of my data (and image files) daily to a second drive in the computer and to an external drive. I am testing an online backup system from Carbonite that has no limit for $50 per year and automatically uploads new or changed files. I can also if needed order digital negatives of proofs I display on Smugmug. It may be overkill but I once lost almost an entire year's pictures and I don't intend to let that happen again.

[GertS]

I am testing an online backup system from Carbonite that has no limit for $50 per year and automatically uploads new or changed files.

We don't know how these storage providers backup the data. You need a fast connection to the provider too, as the data volume can be huge.
How save are they against illegal access by others? Just a question, web sites get attacked by hackers too.
What if your provider stops business?

I would accept it as extra backup but never as only backup of data.

[grego]

We don't know how these storage providers backup the data. You need a fast connection to the provider too, as the data volume can be huge.
How save are they against illegal access by others? Just a question, web sites get attacked by hackers too.
What if your provider stops business?

I would accept it as extra backup but never as only backup of data.

If you really want to be backed up, you should always have two sources.

[Steiglitz]

The current RAW formats, as well as TIFF, JPG, and native Photo-Shop formats will all be accessable 1,000 years from now.

But that does no one any good if one does not take proper measures to insure their images are available in the future.

Burn to two sets of optical. Store the optical in dark, cool, and dry conditions. Store the two sets in two different locations. Create two new sets of optical every 3-5 years, using newer better optical formats. Throw the prior set out. When creating a new set of back ups, decide if that is a good time to convert your raws, jpgs, tiffs, etc to newer LOSSLESS formats, in order to keep up with technology as it changes.

I think it's that simple.

The wonderful thing about digital is that a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy is the exact same as the original....try that with a copy of a print!

And for this reason, I would never consider a print a way to archive an image for the future....prints fade...even 200 years is not much time.

[Steiglitz]

I think I'm over the top but feel good about my system. I back up raw files on to quality DVD's the day after the wedding, I have a simple program that automatically backs up all of my data (and image files) daily to a second drive in the computer and to an external drive. I am testing an online backup system from Carbonite that has no limit for $50 per year and automatically uploads new or changed files. I can also if needed order digital negatives of proofs I display on Smugmug. It may be overkill but I once lost almost an entire year's pictures and I don't intend to let that happen again.

Do you really want to trust an online 3rd party to protect your files? I think the control should stay with you, and not some strangers working at some new company. It would make me very nerveous to trust such a service for the protection of my images....