So how do you do the coffee filter white ballance trick?

[ron chappel]

I haven't got any coffee filters yet but i have a pringles lid handy (some recommend that)
But how do you do it? Obviously you don't take a pic of the scene with the filter to set custom white ballance with,that just wouldn't work because there would be all kinds of colours in the scene.
Does one take a pic directly into the light source and use that for CWB?
That makes sense but i couldn't get it to have any usefull effect using the pringles lid...

[CyberDyneSystems]

I tried the Coffee filter trick.. you stand where the subject is if possible.. but depending on light source it may not be necesary... but yes,. you point it towards the light source to take the CWB shot...

I tried it once.. and all seemed to work o-kay.. but in hindsite.. (and I'm not home so I can't check) I do not think I changed the Cameras setting from AWB to CWB... in other words,. I took the shot,.. then chose the shot as my CWB.. but I think I then forgot to switch to CWB in the other menu...


I only think this because last time I went shooting.. I remebred that I needed to change BACK to AWB... and when I went to do that,. I saw I was allready in AWB... thus.. I probably never had it set to CWB...

Sorry for rambling... :roll:

[maderito]

Obviously you haven't tried the lid of the Super Cantenna (http://www.cantenna.com/howto.html), the universally recommended alternative to the Pringles top. It's only $19.95 minus rebate.

[maderito]

Ron,

I've given it a couple of days, and I still can't figure out what's up with your "WWW" site as listed in your postings. Maybe after we get that cleared up, we can move on to Pringles lids and other important questions of the day.

BTW - Congratualtions...I believe you're the newest Top Contributor. :wink:

[robertwgross]

I tried the Coffee filter trick.. you stand where the subject is if possible.. but depending on light source it may not be necesary... but yes,. you point it towards the light source to take the CWB shot...


I would not point the camera toward the light source to get the best result. It would work better if you let the light source fall on your pure white target (e.g. coffee filter). You fill the frame with that "light on white" and shoot it. Then do the custom white balance setting procedure for your camera. Then select that custom white balance to work.

---Bob Gross---

[ron chappel]

Thanks for the help guys :)
Hi Woody,um,not sure which WWW link you're refering to?
hey it's early here and i've been abit off lately :cry:

[maderito]

Hi Woody,um,not sure which WWW link you're refering to?

Ron -- Click on your WWW link. Compelling stuff - eh! :)
http://display.lifepics.com/imgdisp.asp?filespec=%60foxhx2cuxmwdogx%5D9%3C%3D8 %3B9dOjeOrmlffpcuqlu4nzj%11254%40%3F9%0D%3A38352

[ron chappel]

LOL
no idea at al how that got there-didn't even realize i had a link :oops:

[drisley]

Tomorrow when I'm shooting a bodybuilding show, I'm going to throw a coffee filter (maybe a pringle lid would be better) up on stage, snap a picture, and then use the eye dropper in C1 Pro to set the WB for all my pics! :lol:

I wonder if they'll mind? :wink:

[CyberDyneSystems]

I tried the Coffee filter trick.. you stand where the subject is if possible.. but depending on light source it may not be necesary... but yes,. you point it towards the light source to take the CWB shot...


I would not point the camera toward the light source to get the best result. It would work better if you let the light source fall on your pure white target (e.g. coffee filter). You fill the frame with that "light on white" and shoot it. Then do the custom white balance setting procedure for your camera. Then select that custom white balance to work.

---Bob Gross---


Bob,.. you need to do a search on "Expodisk" to see what we are talikng about.. the "Coffee filter trick" does not involve the standard methods to acheive a white balance..

The whole point of the "Expodisk" is to allow you to acheive perfect white balance without going through the white card routine. An expodisk is the size and shape of a lens filter.. to use it you put it on the lens like a lens cap,. and shoot THROUGH it.. AT THE LIGHT SOURCE.. and then use the resulting image to set custom white balance.

The "Coffee filter trick" merely replaces the rather costly "Expodisk" product with a pair of Mr. Coffee filters at mere pennies.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Tomorrow when I'm shooting a bodybuilding show, I'm going to throw a coffee filter (maybe a pringle lid would be better) up on stage, snap a picture, and then use the eye dropper in C1 Pro to set the WB for all my pics! :lol:

I wonder if they'll mind? :wink:

Again,. I would suggest you read the "how to" on ExpoDisks web site.. or else just get yourself a white card to do it the old fashioned way.

[robertwgross]

I'm quite familiar with the ExpoDisk concept, but I don't think much of them since there can be a lot of difference between transmission and reflectance.

I'm more concerned about the light that is reflecting off my subject, so I use a white card.

---Bob Gross---

[slejhamer]

Which brand of coffee filter is true white? Or even just neutral? I haven't found one yet. I'm on my 627th cup o' joe this month and feelin' EDGY! :twisted: Anyway, from what I've seen the coffee filters are a bit warm, and the resultant WB too cool. (Warm being yellowish and cool being blue, not the opposite as in Kelvin temperature.)

I think Bob is right about reflective WB. The "incident method" (aiming an expodisc at the dominant light source) is specific to the expodisc, and is used to set white balance AND exposure at the same time. But you can use the expodisc aimed at the subject ("reflective method") to set WB only.

At least that's what the expodisc folks say (see below.) And of course if you have some other neutral and diffusive material (coffee filter, respirator insert, etc.) then you don't need to spend big bucks on the expodisc. I like the respirator inserts, personally.


Incident vs. Reflective Method

The ExpoDisc provides a perfect 18% neutral reference gray frame only when it is used with INCIDENT LIGHT (you must turn away from the subject , and aim the camera at the main light source to do this correctly). But if you try to use REFLECTIVE LIGHT to determine exposure it will not work – the ExpoDisc only passes about 3.24% of the incident light (after it is reflected off the subject) through the lens assembly, creating a very dark gray frame that is almost black, and will result in images that are TWO STOPS OVEREXPOSED! But even these dark gray frames created with the ExpoDisc are color balanced, and work very well to set white balance - you can check this in Photoshop by changing the illumination level to 128 or even 192, and at every level you will still see perfect balance. So with reflective light, you can only use the ExpoDisc to set white balance, but not to set exposure.

[dn7elson]

Which brand of coffee filter is true white? Or even just neutral?

Mitch- what are your thoughts on something like this?

http://www.imageguy.com/pix/PPC_FT_BBGtb.jpg

http://www.imageguy.com/PPC_1.php

Seems similar to what RawWorkflow is now offering.

[slejhamer]

Mitch- what are your thoughts on something like this?
http://www.imageguy.com/PPC_1.php
Seems similar to what RawWorkflow is now offering.


It's intentionally not neutral? I don't get it. Why have gray patches that aren't gray? Did I miss the point? Do you have one? Is it real? The purchase links on that site don't seem to work, and I can't find a price. It reminds me of the white/gray/black card at the back of Scott Kelby's Photoshop book ... none of those patches are neutral.

Anyway, I think it's different from the new WhiBal cards at rawworkflow. Those are supposedly very neutral and can be used to set the white and black points as well. And they have better looking models:
http://www.pictureflow.com/products/whibal/WhiBalCharts.html

[dn7elson]

It's intentionally not neutral? I don't get it. Why have gray patches that aren't gray? Did I miss the point? Do you have one? Is it real? The purchase links on that site don't seem to work, and I can't find a price. It reminds me of the white/gray/black card at the back of Scott Kelby's Photoshop book ... none of those patches are neutral.

No, I don't. I was looking for something to help with color balance on overcast days and thought that something like this might be good for the bag. It says that it is full thickness color, plastic vs. paper (should travel well) and that both light and dark gray are neutral. The website seems to be having "issues" at this time (temporary or permanent, I don't know). As I recall, the small one was about $39. Supposedly has pure white, light gray, dark gray and black stripes on one side with the back being dark gray.


Anyway, I think it's different from the new WhiBal cards at rawworkflow. Those are supposedly very neutral and can be used to set the white and black points as well. And they have better looking models

Theirs does not state the material, just that the color is not a coating. The plastic card with full thickness color, if neutral and accurate is appealing to me as I could just stuff it into the backpack and take it wherever, not worrying about moisture, dirt, etc. Most gray cards are seemingly intended for studio use where paper is OK.

[rick barclay]

For what it's worth, the review I read said expodisks and coffee lid
adjustments for white balance only have value to those shooting in jpg
mode and is of little or no use to those shooting raw because post
processing for white balance is vey easy and quicker to do.

I tend to heartily agree, even with my inexperience. Here's the link.

http://goinside.com/03/11/expod.html

[slejhamer]

I was looking for something to help with color balance on overcast days and thought that something like this might be good ...


I read this part on that site and jumped to the conclusion that the patches are not neutral:

Depending on your, or your clients, tastes. You make the image look slightly warmer or cooler (while maintaining color accuracy) just by selecting a different swatch as your color reference point.

I agree with you that the WhiBal looks very convenient. If you see someone walking around Meadowlark with one of those around his neck, say 'hello'... 8)

[drisley]

For what it's worth, the review I read said expodisks and coffee lid
adjustments for white balance only have value to those shooting in jpg
mode and is of little or no use to those shooting raw because post
processing for white balance is vey easy and quicker to do.

I tend to heartily agree, even with my inexperience. Here's the link.

http://goinside.com/03/11/expod.html

Yes, I only shoot Raw, but sometimes it is a pain to have to eyeball every matching batch of pics in C1. Also, I often dont trust my judgement when it comes to colurs. :wink:
I thought this might help take the guess work of it, and speed up my workflow.
Guess I will have to give it a try!

[rick barclay]

Would like to know how you make out. It seems like an awfully time-consuming thing, something you would have to do every time you
change position. After a few minutes out in the hot sun with an Expo-disk,
I think I would tend to get a little impatient and sloppy. And forget the coffee can lid.

[slejhamer]

the review I read said expodisks and coffee lid
adjustments for white balance only have value to those shooting in jpg
mode and is of little or no use to those shooting raw because post
processing for white balance is vey easy and quicker to do.



Rick, he also says this:

However, by using an accurate custom white balance reading from the Expo/Disc, processing raw files can be sped up significantly,

:wink:

It seems like an awfully time-consuming thing, something you would have to do every time you
change position. After a few minutes out in the hot sun with an Expo-disk,
I think I would tend to get a little impatient and sloppy. And forget the coffee can lid.

Depends on where and what you're shooting. Indoors with mixed lighting, where you are only shooting from a couple of positions, it can be a big time saver. But no different, ultimately, from using a gray or white card.

[mjordan]

I like the idea of the WhiBal cards and they are sure a lot cheaper than the (what I feel is) over priced expo disk. When it was half the price of what it is now, it wasn't a bad price for a tool.

I asked a question on the WhiBal message forum though, since I don't see how it can do a white balance very well since you need to get a picture that fills the sensor area of the camera. The pocket cards are small and the studio version isn't much bigger. So you would have to get in close or use a zoom to get a full sensor image to use with custom white balance. In some situations I can see where this might not be easy. So I asked on the other forum how people actually used it. If you take a picture of the 4 cards and use it to set color points in Photoshop, I can see where that would help.

Mike

[slejhamer]

If you take a picture of the 4 cards and use it to set color points in Photoshop, I can see where that would help.


Hey Mike. That's the way it would be used - take a shot with the cards in the frame, then use them to set the color points. You can also do this in C1 during RAW conversion and use the resultant WB for all other images in a batch, which I believe is how most of the rawworkflow junkies would use it.

Given the size, you can not take a completely gray reference frame, as you would with the expodisc.

[CyberDyneSystems]

....

I think Bob is right about reflective WB. The "incident method" (aiming an expodisc at the dominant light source) is specific to the expodisc, and is used to set white balance AND exposure at the same time. But you can use the expodisc aimed at the subject ("reflective method") to set WB only.

At least that's what the expodisc folks say (see below.) And of course if you have some other neutral and diffusive material (coffee filter, respirator insert, etc.) then you don't need to spend big bucks on the expodisc. I like the respirator inserts, personally.


Incident vs. Reflective Method

The ExpoDisc provides a perfect 18% neutral reference gray frame only when it is used with INCIDENT LIGHT (you must turn away from the subject , and aim the camera at the main light source to do this correctly). But if you try to use REFLECTIVE LIGHT to determine exposure it will not work – the ExpoDisc only passes about 3.24% of the incident light (after it is reflected off the subject) through the lens assembly, creating a very dark gray frame that is almost black, and will result in images that are TWO STOPS OVEREXPOSED! But even these dark gray frames created with the ExpoDisc are color balanced, and work very well to set white balance - you can check this in Photoshop by changing the illumination level to 128 or even 192, and at every level you will still see perfect balance. So with reflective light, you can only use the ExpoDisc to set white balance, but not to set exposure.



O-kay.. this part I did not know. I have only used the expo disk and the Coffe filters pointred at the light source.. and for some reason I thought that the Expodisk only worked that way...

Thanks for the clarification.. and humble apologies to Mr. Gross.. :wink:

[robertwgross]

Thanks for the clarification.. and humble apologies to Mr. Gross..

Like I said, I am well familiar with the Expodisk concept. But then, there is a gap between concept and practical reality.

I keep a white card stuck in the side of my shoulder bag. So far, I have never had a failure on it. Cheap too.

I think back to all those semesters of college physics, and I knew at the time that it was all a waste of time. Strangely enough, after all these years, practical optics will pop up in a discussion time after time, and some factoid from college physics enters into my consciousness.

---Bob Gross---

[mjordan]

If you take a picture of the 4 cards and use it to set color points in Photoshop, I can see where that would help.


Hey Mike. That's the way it would be used - take a shot with the cards in the frame, then use them to set the color points. You can also do this in C1 during RAW conversion and use the resultant WB for all other images in a batch, which I believe is how most of the rawworkflow junkies would use it.

Given the size, you can not take a completely gray reference frame, as you would with the expodisc.

Thanks Mitch. On their web site, you get the impression they can also be used to set white balance in the camera. Which from experience, just didn't look very possible given the size of the cards. But rather than just say it isn't practical to use that way, I thought I'd see if anyone actually used them and how. I already have an use a MacBeth color chart from time to time and I have both white, gray and the tri-color cards that I use... when I remember to put them in my bag. :lol:

Mike

[slejhamer]

Mike, I see that MTapes replied to your question and also posted a FAQ on using WhiBal cards. It seems to me that his suggestions would apply to almost any white or gray card, so I'll link to the threads in case anyone is interested:

http://www.pictureflow.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4624

http://www.pictureflow.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4630

And the response to Mike's post:
http://www.pictureflow.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4598