D30 or D60

[henkbos]

Hi all,

Life can is full of choices: wait for a D60 or get a D30 now. Who has experiences with both?
Have a Powershot S10 now as well as EOS-500 with lenses and content with the quality, but I WANT a D30/60 before my holiday in Indonesia in July.

Comments are appreciated.

Henk

[jadams]

Of course, newer is ALWAYS better!

No, just kidding. If money's not a concern, go for the D60. If you're willing to go a bit over retail (I wouldn't suggest it) you could definately get one before your holiday.

I have a 1D, not a D30 or D60. I settled on the 1D because the 8fps is useful to me and any bit of weatherproofing I can get will be accepted kindly. Also, the focusing problems with the D30/60 seemed to not be a problem on the 1D. Cash flow has been good lately, so I went for some of the "nice but not really necessary" features. Plus, I held a D30 and a 1D -- the 1D body just felt better to me. I can't explain it, but it was just easier to hold and felt better.

Now, is about double the megapixles and faster autofocusing (the only real differences I see) worth the extra expense from D30 to D60?

I would only consider the D30 if I could find it for more than 25% less than the D60's retail and/or time was a big issue. Shortages like this usually don't last long, and soon they'll be available around every corner for less than full MSRP.

Jasper

[Rudi]

Henk,

the D30 is a wonderful camera. I know. I have one! :)

I have no intention of upgrading to the D60, as the improvements aren't worth the extra money, IMO. That said, if I was buying today, I'd go for the D60, partly because it IS slightly better, partly because you can't get a D30 brand new any more.

If you're really pushed for time, can't get a D60, and 3 megapixels is good enough for what you need, definitely go for the D30! You will not regret your decision. But keep in mind the current market price and don't pay too much!

Hope this helps.

[Rudi]

jadams wrote:
Of course, newer is ALWAYS better!

I held a D30 and a 1D -- the 1D body just felt better to me. I can't explain it, but it was just easier to hold and felt better.




Jasper,

the reason the D30/60 probably didn't feel right in your hands was that it didn't have the battery pack/vertical grip attached! I have always used the vertical grips with all my film cameras, and now use one with my D30. It makes the camera feel better in my hand, and the included controls for using the camera in portrait orientation are sorely missed whenever I happen to use a camera without one...

[Dans_D60]

I have both a D30 and D60. The extra advantages of the D60 including illuminated focus points, 6-megapixel, etc., would make the decision towards the D60 pretty easy for me. And the price is about the same. Remember the D30 sold for more than $3,000 just a year ago. Since Canon dropped the D30 just one year after introduction would trouble me if I were to purchase it new today. It’s obvious where Canon’s priority will be with upgrades and maintenance. But, said that, the D30’s picture quality is on par with the D60 all the up to 20X30. I printed side-by-side comparisons of 16X20 prints from both cameras using a Kodak professional digital printer. I used RAW to 16-bit TIFF on both. And, it’s almost impossible to see any difference. Both cameras are great if you can really get a great price on the D30, go for it … just be aware that Canon no longer manufactures the D30. I’m sure they will provide support but not a priority for upgrades.
Dan

[Far Side]

I perfer the D30 to the D60. As Dan-60 said, the end results of the D30 are just about the same as the D60 and the D30 has ISO 1600, and has fewer problems than the new D60. For the difference in price, you can buy quality lenses that will have much more effect the picture quality. ou can read Pekka's views here;

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=6030

[reittila]

Happy with D30 :)
http://www.prfoto.com/pb2002_bands/index.htm

[UK_Terry]

Far Side wrote:
I perfer the D30 to the D60. As Dan-60 said, the end results of the D30 are just about the same as the D60 and the D30 has ISO 1600, and has fewer problems than the new D60. For the difference in price, you can buy quality lenses that will have much more effect the picture quality.

I totally agree with this statement, spend the extra money on quality lenses. also read this incredibly long and complex discussion about the D60.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2849

another thing to remember is the transfer speed, writing to the CF card if you are useing the RAW mode.
The amount of photo's on a card would also halve.

I bought my D30 knowing a D60 was imminent (so did the dealer) and managed to get £500 off the asking price.

i am extremly happy with the D30 and would not change it.

[Pekka]

Far Side wrote:
I perfer the D30 to the D60. As Dan-60 said, the end results of the D30 are just about the same as the D60 and the D30 has ISO 1600, and has fewer problems than the new D60. For the difference in price, you can buy quality lenses that will have much more effect the picture quality. ou can read Pekka's views here;

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=6030


Just to make sure: the Pekka in question is not me :)

[henkbos]

Thanks all,

The question was supposed to make my life easier. Instead of that I did a lot of interested reading and still don't know what to do. Was close of getting a D60 this afternoon but an another guy beat me seconds. So the quest and the reading continues.
Going upwards from a Powershot S10 I guess both the D30 and D60 will be bliss.

Henk

[reittila]

Pekka wrote:
Far Side wrote:
I perfer the D30 to the D60. As Dan-60 said, the end results of the D30 are just about the same as the D60 and the D30 has ISO 1600, and has fewer problems than the new D60. For the difference in price, you can buy quality lenses that will have much more effect the picture quality. ou can read Pekka's views here;

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=6030


Just to make sure: the Pekka in question is not me :)


I'm guilty :)
Have a look also at : http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=6030&page=2

[UK_Terry]

I'm guilty :)
Have a look also at : http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=6030&page=2

Here is a great quote from the above link.

" Re: Why I choose D30 over D60
That's very interesting you had said that, Peter. I just bought two "L" lenses instead of upgrading to the D60, and I've been having more fun with those then a person ought to. haha.

____________________________
Kelly Drown, Tulsa, Oklahoma
Canon D30
http://www.KellyDrown.com "

Have a look at the quality of the photos from her D30.
in the whats new -Tulsa zoo section...fabulous

[reittila]

UK_Terry wrote:
____________________________
Kelly Drown, Tulsa, Oklahoma
Canon D30
http://www.KellyDrown.com "

Have a look at the quality of the photos from her D30.
in the whats new -Tulsa zoo section...fabulous

Good examples of the basic truth : photographer makes the picture, not the camera. The camera is only an equipment.

[Dick Ginkowski]

I have both the D60 and D30.

The D30 is good. The D60 is MUCH better.

We're talking almost TWICE the resolution with the D60 with a price less than I paid for the D30 new.

The D60 focuses in lower light and a bit faster, too.

The D60 is not perfect but it is better.

Now--think about this. If you get tired of waiting and buy a D30, will you be able to trade it in on a D60 (or some other model) and recoup your investment? Will you be able to sell it and recoup your investment? Probably not.

Don't get me wrong. I like the D30. But I like the D60 more.

[reittila]

Dick Ginkowski wrote:
I have both the D60 and D30.

The D30 is good. The D60 is MUCH better.
more.
My way of thinking is that a camera is better than the other if the result is better when comparing two photographs with each other taken in the same situation.
I think that vast majority of us wouldn't see any difference in the situations we are taking the pictures and in the size we are publishing them.
So what's left, theory perhaps ?

[Pekka]

reittila wrote:
Dick Ginkowski wrote:
I have both the D60 and D30.

The D30 is good. The D60 is MUCH better.
more.
My way of thinking is that a camera is better than the other if the result is better when comparing two photographs with each other taken in the same situation.
I think that vast majority of us wouldn't see any difference in the situations we are taking the pictures and in the size we are publishing them.
So what's left, theory perhaps ?

As I am still wondering with a question whether I should go for D60 or put that money on lenses, I have made some conclusions about all this:

D60 image quality is better. No doubt about that. But what you gain in resolution you may loose just a little bit of that "magical" touch of D30 which made it famous. Not sure if it matter, though, as I for one don't take photos any more under 1000% magnification to see if there is sky noise or not. What I would love to have more resolution for is not possibility of cropping (I never do that), but as a freedom to express: you can use more space in composition without worrying the main subject is too small to be sharp in print. Low noise level is a real everyday issue for me - the amount of noise is not so important than the quality of the noise - and as D60 has a bit less noise than D30 and you can half the noise by resampling back to D30 resolution that is a real strenght. Not having ISO 1600 is a loss, but ISO 1000 is enough.

About color: people always compare D30 and D60 colors, and reviews compare D30 and D60 colors. I say this is a totally moot point as in RAW colors are not cast in stone and you can do whatever look you're after by doing a different conversion. In-camera colors are important for people who shoot JPEG - and I can't understand why anyone would want to shoot JPEG after knowing how versatile a format RAW is.

As a camera, D60 worries me a bit. One word: reliability. I have not had any lost photos with D30, and that is the most important thing there is. All these file saving problems and quality control issues in general are a real drawback. Yes, Canon says they will fix it in firmware but I have learned to stay away from products which are in beta test. Promises are promises, and if it were a simple fix it would have been out months ago.

As a camera, the D60 improvements to D30 are:

- Improved AF performance in low light

The autofocus in low light was never a problem for me in D30, I seek for contrast areas for focus - I have never just pointed the camera and let it to get focus. And Canon says "The AF speed of the EOS D60 is the same as the EOS D30". So why some people tell that it is faster? Maybe because they like to feel it's faster - I have also had self-suggestion moments with new gear until objectivity gets along.

- Superimposed display for AF points

I've never used anything else than center point.

- Shorter and stabler shutter release time lag

This is the most important new feature for me as a camera. I really would need this one.

- Shorter startup time from power off

Good, but D30 is quite fast already.

- Improved metering algorithm

Good. But why is this algorithm not in firmware so it could be downloaded to D30?

- More viewfinder information

Instead of this a fullframe changeable viewfinder should have been made.

- LCD panel illumination

Sometimes needed.

- Improved visibility of the LCD monitor

D30 LCD is just ok.

- Continuous shooting speed of about 3 fps, and maximum burst of about 8 frames in all image formats including RAW mode

Good to have. Big buffer is important.

As a computer, D60 has

- CMOS sensor with 6.3 megapixels

Good.

- Drastic noise reduction during long exposure

Great.

- Seven image recording formats

I need only one.

- Capable of recording RAW and JPEG images simultaneously

No use for me. D30 gets big enough thumbnails from Yarc.

- Processing parameters setting and registration with the on-screen menu

I have never ever set any processing parameters. One word: RAW.

- Expanded Custom Functions

The improvements there are very small (set "highlight AF points on focusing screen", set "Possible to take a shot without the CF card").

- Compliant with Exif Print standard (Exif 2.2)

Don't need this.

- Comprehensive package of application programs

Don't need those.

All in all, all the improvements sound like they are done hastily to D30 chassis, and all really meaningful 1D type improvements like dedicated WB sensor were not included because the next D?0 will have them in its new body design. And one big issue is that it seems that no shop has D60 so that I could take one and try it out if if the shutter lag and buffer are really worth the price.

So, what's the verdict? I'll wait a couple of weeks to

a) see if D60's really are available so I can touch one
b) see if the file bugs are really fixed

and then evaluate this whole mess again :)

Meanwhile, if anyone from Canon is reading this feel free to send me 1D so I don't have to write these long posts again. :)

PS. My source of info was D60 technical report from http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/tech/index.html

[philw]

I have similar feelings about the D60... it's a sensible move for Canon no doubt, but for me a root-two increase in pixel count isn't really worth another couple of grand. The "usability" stuff is no doubt nice to have, but isn't really important to me.

I can already see the difference between mid-range and L glass with the D30, and I can print larger than I want to. The main advantage of a bit of increased resolution for me would be the ability to crop more - effectively my lenses would get that bit "longer" when I need it. If I could have a significant increase in pixel count (say 12M) then perhaps I'd dump the D30, but not for this much.

When I got my D30 in 2000 it was a major step improvement on previous price/ quality packages in digital gear. The D60 is a "dot-release" of the D30.... not enough in my view to justify upgrading. I trust that Canon's designers are working on something significantly better at the moment.

[henkbos]

Since I only use a Powershot S10 now, I only know JPEG, never done any RAW before. Before digital it was EOS 500 withthe occasional enlargement to 50X60.
Guess I will be happy to start shooting RAW and in that case 3 or 6 million won't matter that much.

[reittila]

Pekka and I are like we are - same name same minds ;)
I don't even use AF so where is the big deal ?
I use either manual or AV exposure methods and _always_ RAW.
Very simple endeed :)
D1 would make a diference but the price _hurts_ .

[Pekka]

reittila wrote:
Pekka and I are like we are - same name same minds ;)


Yep. We have to meet some day for a pint or two!


D1 would make a diference but the price _hurts_ .

Yes, 1D price is ridiculous. I really would like to see an upgradeable chip on a camera that expensive. If the body is otherwise perfect and durable, why not?

It's really strange that Canon is so quiet about their product plans - computer industry offers roadmaps and announces products very early - that would be welcome trend in camera industry, too.

An intresting question is: if you would have a 1D with 12 megapixels and double the speed would you ever again consider changing camera body? What will be the catch to buy new stuff then? :)

Maybe that is why things advance so slowly.

[Rudi]

Dick Ginkowski wrote:
Now--think about this. If you get tired of waiting and buy a D30, will you be able to trade it in on a D60 (or some other model) and recoup your investment? Will you be able to sell it and recoup your investment? Probably not.


That will be the case with the D60 in a few weeks as well. As soon as Canon meets demand, the D60 will be in the same boat as all the other digital cameras.

They depreciate. It's a fact of life. So what?

My D30 works as well as the day bought it. I did not buy it as an investment. You'd be foolish to buy any electronic equipment as an investment. Technology moves too fast (and it'll only get worse in the future!).