Image Use. How could I be getting scammed

[ijohnson]

I have gotten 2 requests now in my Pbase inbox for authorozation to use certain images in a textbook. They claim credit only and no pay.

The pay thing isn't a problem really as I mostly shoot for fun. I have done some pay work here and there for some families, a bar journal, yellow pages, and a couple other things. Those were mostly people that I knew or that my friends knew that needed work done so the legal implications were hardly mind-boggling.

Is there any way that I could be getting scammed? How do I deal with this type of request?

I guess I am so used to spam that I am afraid they are going to use my legal release to take my whole photo collection.

Any thoughts?

[thomascanty]

Interesting. Were they from South America? I got the same thing about a month ago.

The picture of mine they wanted to use isn't one I'd consider very good, so I told them they could use it as long as I got a free copy of the book. They said that was acceptable, and they'd send me a copy as soon as it was printed later this year. We'll see if they come through with that promise.

I'm not particularly worried, though. Like I said, I don't really think the picture they chose is all that good. I've also been approached with a similar request before, and received the book. It was a self-published novel, though, not a textbook that time.

[IndyJeff]

Personally I would reply with the following:

Dear Sirs,
Thank you for interest in the use of my image in your textbook. While your initial offer stated there would be a photo credit only, that would be an offer which I decline to accept. If you wish to use my work, which you obviously feel will add to your publication, then I would need to be paid as anyone else which contributes to that publication, i.e. other photographers, writers, proof readers, printers, binders, etc.
If you will let me know the number of books scheduled for original printing of that book and size of the image you will be displaying, I can then quote you a price for that image use.
Once again thank you for interest in my images and I look forward to quoting you a price for a one time use of any of the images in my collection.

Signed,
Your name

Unfortunately tho, they may take a pass on paying you and use some other poor saps photo which they will not pay for either. How much do they charge for text books? It isn't given away for free is it? Then why should you give away your product for free?
Then again if you let them use it be sure to ask for a copy of the book. You can then carry it with you and if you go to the grocery store show it to the cashier and see how much of a discount she gives you on your grocery bill.

[defordphoto]

I agree with Jeff. Don't do it. They are begging for some amateur that has an eye to get all excited about getting photo credits and them laughing all the way to the bank with free photos. Sure they'd send you a book for free. That costs them hardly squat.

The problem is that there are many amateurs out there that will give their photos for free. They know it and and Pbase is THE PEFECT place to cull photos from bright-eyed amateurs.

However, I do bargain with my photos many times. Like with my Jet Sprint photos. These teams are on a shoe-string budget. So I'll barter with the teams for use of photos. However, that ONLY applies to the teams. Had Heartland Magazine come to me wanting free photos for their magazine, I would have told them to blow off. I'd rather the photos sit on my hard drive and rot before I give them away for free to someone making a profit of their use.

Stand firm. Just say NO to free photo use!!

[Olegis]

I had different experience with this matter - I was contacted by somebody who wanted to use 4-5 photographs of mine (the guy saw them on Pbase). At first I requested the credit only, without mentioning any money - but he offered me USD$25 for each photograph. I agreed, but asked him for a 50mm f/1.8 instead of the money (lens $69 + hood $29 + S&H $30 = $128 for 5 pictures). After I received the lens, I sent him full-resolution pictures, so we both were happy about this 8)

[Rob Larsen]

I could be worse.... you could be getting scammed and asked to PAY for it also. :shock: Here is a solicitation I received via my unfinished website:


Dear Rob,

I am the representative of the Romanian Group for the Promotion of Photography. We organise during the whole year photography exhibitions in the major halls of the city of Iasi, Romania.

Among the places where we have organised exhibitions are: the German Cultural Center of Iasi, The Academy's Library, the Museum of Art, etc.

We find your work artistically inspired, and technically flawless. This is why we would like to invite you to participate with 10 of your works at an Exhibition of Spring, starting with Easter. You could send us a CD with the photographs that will be printed in minimum A4 format. We will print them and frame them, this is why we would require a minimal setup and administration cost.

For more information, please do contact us at [removed]@zappmobile.ro

Looking forward to a long term cooperation,

Yours sincerely,

[name removed by RL]


I replied thanking him for his kind comments and interest in using my pictures. I also offered to provide professional quality prints of all pictures he was interested in for a negotiated fee. I never heard back from him. I got a chuckle out of the blatant attempt to steal my photos for a "minimal cost." I wonder if The Romanian Group for the Promotion of Photography promotes itself via boxes of prints at street fairs and flea markets?

Careful out there. This solicitation was generated after I posted my URL in Pekka's Gallery database.

[thomascanty]

The only reason I let them use my picture is because, like I said, it wasn't one I particularly cared about anyway. I really don't know why they chose that particular one, when I have similar and much better ones in the same gallery. I asked for a copy of the book more out of curiosity than a desire to be compensated.

The self-published book was a special case. The author's subject was a favorite of mine (related to the screen name I use here, even), and he expected to take a loss on the book anyway. As a writer myself, I understood his position and was more than happy to help.

I've been approached one other time from someone wanting to use pictures I had on PBase, this time a software developer who was actually offering to pay me pretty well for a series of nighttime Vegas and Los Angeles shots. I didn't like the subject matter of the game they were working on (an adult themed game), so I refused.

[Pekka]

Careful out there. This solicitation was generated after I posted my URL in Pekka's Gallery database.

I hope you are not impying that the gallery database entry was reason you got spam. My gallery database does not show user emails anywhere, so they must have got your email from your site, or just by guessing it (name@domain.com usually works) or they emailed you through this forum (where real email is also hidden).

If you want visitors to your gallery then you must advertise it in some way. If the advertisement is in www then anyone can get your site address and that is the point of advertising, isn't it :) Only thing you should do to protect your photos is to never post full size originals and have a copyright statement on the page which shows them. Also, RAW is a great method of proving in court you have the original file - it also holds camera serial and other data. I never give RAW files to anyone.

[Rob Larsen]

Careful out there. This solicitation was generated after I posted my URL in Pekka's Gallery database.

I hope you are not impying that the gallery database entry was reason you got spam.

Pekka, in no way did I intend to imply this spam was from your gallery database. I think it is a GREAT service and product.

The reason I stated that is because the person who sent me that mail linked to my site via the Gallery DB. That is not a problem and I welcome all the links and comments I get. I thank you for the opportunity to advertise in such a well respected and classy forum. In an awkward way I was just trying to say "it is not just pbase that people are patrolling in search of great pictures from armatures who may not know the value of their work." It just happens that this scammer found my site via the Gallery and might have tried this ploy on others in our community.

Pekka, I am very sorry if my comments were construed to imply anything negative about the community tools you have so generously provided us. I highly recommend this forum and your gallery to all interested in photography.

And as for the scammer, I find that a humorous byproduct of the additional exposure your gallery has provided my site. Thanks ;-)

[mjordan]

There are a lot of reasons to provide prints for free and a lot of reasons to get paid for them. If doctors, lawyers, dentests, painters, construction workers, and other professionals and non-professionals never donated their time, material and knowleage to others, it would be a much poorer world.

I provide a lot of my work to non-profit groups for their use and ask only for credit and a couple of copies of the publication (and no, I've never bothered to take it and show at the grocery store either). Why? Because I want to and because I can.

I also get paid for my work, both from individuals and by publications that my work has appeared in.

In the photography world (just like in any group) there are those that are very money orinted (and nothing wrong with that as long as they don't think others are wrong) and those that money is not the primary motivation (and there is nothing wrong with that as long as they don't think the others are wrong). So you have to consider the answers you get based on that. While our opinions can help, it's going to come down to how you feel about it. If you are satisfied with getting credits for the photos, then don't let anyone else tell you that that is wrong. If you don't feel comfortable about it, then tell them no.

One word of advice though. If you do let them use your photos, make sure you get it in writing specifically what the images are going to be used for in writing and signed by someone at the publication. Don't just give them a broad "Sure, you can use them" type answer. Also, if your images are not yet registered, get them registered. This is your best protection should they decide to use the images anyway (without your permission) or if they use them for something other than what you agreed too. You are protected without registering, but by registering and you take them to court, they get to pay the costs. If they aren't registered, you have to foot your own legal fees.

Mike

[defordphoto]

Donating for non-profit is great and I have and will do it always. Most times I don't even worry about credits when donating. Many times I ask for them not to give credits.

But these guys want free pictures for a for-profit book and are looking for an amateur victim with stars in their eyes and offering a simple credit. That waters down the industry terribly and should be avoided at all costs.

[Rob Larsen]

I also have donated pictures for non-profit causes and find it very fulfilling to be able to promote a good cause. But, if someone ever anonymously asks you to provide a CD full of print sized originals and accompany it with a small "administrative" fee, I say "run!" :)

[IndyJeff]

First off let me say I too have donated not only prints but, my time and camera to charitable events. Riley Childrens Hospital, WestLake Little League, St. Christophers Church Bingo (will be getting 2 11x14 racing images this summer) the U.S.S Indianapolis Memorial, a couple of youth basketball leagues and several others I can't remember. There is nothing wrong with donating and I do encourage it and I have never asked for my name to be associated in any way to my products. I don't do it for the credit. But giving the images away to a for profit project just to see your name at the bottom of a photo? That's crazy!
This spring I was approached by a company that shoots running & walking charity events to shoot the local Race for the Cure. First thing I asked was if there was a donation back to the organization which held the event. Indeed there was. I was told a donation in kind receipt would be my pay, the amount was $1200. Now that is one hell of a deduction and if my calculations are correct it works out to about $300 back in my pocket. Not bad for 2 gigs of photos and about 3 hours of my time. After it was over I found out they paid some of the other shooters $100 who after taxes would get about $70. At first I was kind of feeling ripped off but then I thought about it and would rather have the deduction.

In the photography world (just like in any group) there are those that are very money orinted (and nothing wrong with that as long as they don't think others are wrong)

Like any other group there are people who make their living at photography. When you have someone giving away their work just to see their name in a credit line, does it hurt the industry as a whole? How would you feel if you were a car salesman and a car lot opened across the street selling the same cars as you but, they had volunteers coming in because they thought being a car salesman would be a fun job. Since they have no commission/salary to pay a salesman they sell their cars at a pretty good discount under what you are asking. How many people will buy the same car from you if they go across the street and find out it is $1000 less? Probably not many huh? So how much has the "no commission" dealership hurt your wallet? Are they right because they can do it? Would you think they are wrong and hurting the industry? How long are you going to be selling cars or are you job hunting in a month? Think about it that way and giving your work away doesn't make much sense for any profession.

If your ever at a sporting event, go up to a credentialed photographer and strike up a conversation and let him know you are shooting from the stands and will be giving your images away for a credit line. Now ask him for some tips on shooting and who you should submit to and see what he has to say. Probably he will turn and walk away, mumbling under his breath about the SOB's that buy digital cameras these days. Are you hurting him? Your doing it because you can and choose to aren't you?

If you ever have any aspirations to make a living, either part or full time off photography, giving away your work only dissapates that hope of someday making money off it. I have known guys who gave their work away to the same publication for an entire racing season. The next year they asked to be paid and were told that they wouldn't be needed. They have people waiting to get out there and shoot for free. Soon enough some publications will no longer pay for any photos and I see in the future publications charging for your name to be added to the credential list. Once they figure out someone will pay to work for them, just to attend the event, they will make money off of it.



mjordan while this is directed at you, it is not done in an angry tone. I add this because emotion of response can't be judged by a reader on a message board.

[IndyJeff]

Along the same lines......

A couple of years ago my son submitted some poetry to an online contest. He has a pretty good talent for writing. One day we get this letter that his poem was selected to be published in a book. Accompaning this letter is an order form complete with a bio for him to fill out to be added to the book. The book was rather expensive and as I told him if he wanted it I would get it but, without purchasing it his poem wouldn't appear in the book. He got a little mad thinking I was trying to shoot him down. So to prove my point we went online to the same site that he submitted the poem. I submitted a photo for a contest they were having. Sure enough in about 3 weeks a letter came. My photo had been selected for publication and if I filled out the bio on the order form it would be printed below my photo in this wonderful, leather bound book.

Just a scam. Make enough people think their work has been selected on merit and you get enough to buy the book then you print it and send it out to each and every person who ordered and provided the material for the book. Damn sounds like a good business afterall doesn't it? LOL No production overruns, no subject costs, every book produced a guarenteed sale.

[stopbath]

Along the same lines......

A couple of years ago my son submitted some poetry to an online contest. He has a pretty good talent for writing. One day we get this letter that his poem was selected to be published in a book. Accompaning this letter is an order form complete with a bio for him to fill out to be added to the book. The book was rather expensive and as I told him if he wanted it I would get it but, without purchasing it his poem wouldn't appear in the book. He got a little mad thinking I was trying to shoot him down. So to prove my point we went online to the same site that he submitted the poem. I submitted a photo for a contest they were having. Sure enough in about 3 weeks a letter came. My photo had been selected for publication and if I filled out the bio on the order form it would be printed below my photo in this wonderful, leather bound book.

Just a scam. Make enough people think their work has been selected on merit and you get enough to buy the book then you print it and send it out to each and every person who ordered and provided the material for the book. Damn sounds like a good business afterall doesn't it? LOL No production overruns, no subject costs, every book produced a guarenteed sale.
**IF** they ever printed the book(s)...