Help with larger group - pix attached

[Dream Merchant]

I'm so sorry for posting this as I know there are lots of similar questions. I went through lots of threads yesterday till about 2 or 3 am trying to figure out the best way to light a group I have to shoot next week.

I hope you can give me some feedback or suggestions that might turn my little nightmare around.

Objective: Shoot a large group of 50 people 7 or 8 rows deep in a dim dance hall from a semi-bird's eye perspective

Equipment: 5D ISO set to 800 and a 35L, 17-40L or Sigma 15-30 set to around f/11-16

Lights: 1xMetz 60 CT4, 1 x Metz 60 CT1, Metz 45 CL1 with Lightsphere rip-off diffuser, and a Canon 420 set to manual to throw light to the back of the group

Here's the picture of the stage I will be shooting from (sorry for the horrendous cloning). The 'exit' door on the left is about 2.1-2.2 meters high for a sense of scale. :

http://clprodn.smugmug.com/photos/184844751-M.jpg

I will be on a tall ladder on the stage and will probably be looking at shooting from 3-4 meters up.

Here's a 'mock' trial from about the same height/angle:

http://clprodn.smugmug.com/photos/184844726-M.jpg

The mock trial was with both Metz 60CTs set on full manual with the wide-angle diffuser, spaced approximately 5 meter apart (position 'B' on the first photo) with the flash heads pointed slightly downwards, straight-ahead for feathering. A bracket-mounted Metz 45 on Auto with a Lightsphere rip-off provided diffused light for the central area, while a 420 on hotshoe was pointed at the 'back of the group' to compensate for light fall-off.

The 60 CT4 has variable manual control.
The 60 CT1 has only full manual.
The 45 CL1 has only auto or full manual.
The 420 will be fired on partial manual.

Here's my delima: The mock trial looks like a stadium flood-lit shot. I am trying to achieve a slightly softer, more evenly lit look.

I have no provisions to attach additional diffusers to the 60 CTs.

A) I may be able to set up two tables at points 'B' on the stage, with large white reflector boards. Metz 60s on full blast bouncing off the boards straight back towards the group, not downwards. Height from the bounce boards/60 strobes to the group on dance floor: approx 1.8 meters.

B) Alternatively, I could try to place both 60s on a short tripod (1.4 or so meters), on top of a dining-height table at points 'C' towards the back of the stage firing at full manual towards points 'A' to try and get a diffused effect, with the 45/diffuser and 420 on cam.

For any of the possible set-ups, synching all the strobes is not an issue.

Here's the crux: I have 5 minutes to set-up the lights, and 6-8 minutes to try and get off as many shots as possible - no more time available as a VVIP in the group has less than 10 minutes before rushing off to catch a flight. Re-scheduling is not an option.

Renting high powered studio strobes with brollies or softboxes are not an option.

I MAY have 30 minutes (if I'm lucky; if not, 15 minutes) in the afternoon to do a test set-up besides organising the entire group sans VVIP.

My question:

Which option, A or B do you think would work better? Or do you have any ideas of a better way of doing this given all the details, especially the time-constraints outlined above?

It is very likely I will be working without an assistant.

I owe all of you a thanks in advance, even if it were for just reading though this long post. :cool:

[airfrogusmc]

Well they will be looking up you so is the ceiling white and low enough to bounce off of? You will loose allot of DOF but the quality of light will be better and if they looking up the shadows under the eyes wont be that bad. Otherwise this is a question for Curtis.

[Dream Merchant]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts airfrogusmc.

I did think of bouncing both 60s off the ceiling, but the ceiling is all darkish wood, and is probably close to 5 meters high. :cry: Which was why I was looking at bouncing off points 'A'.

I could paste lots of sheets of white paper on the ceiling above the stage (just about the entire ceiling need to be covered!), but if I were to fall, the entire job doesn't get done (group shot is only part of the assignment for the evening), and I have no medical. Not sure if I could get the venue management to get their maintenance folks to do this. For the moment, bouncing off the ceiling is the last resort.

[Curtis N]

this is a question for Curtis.That would be like asking the dude from The Texas Chainsaw Massacre for advice on precision tree cutting. ;)

The biggest problem here is that the group will be quite deep, and the people in the front row will be a lot closer to you (and closer to the lights) than the back row. Getting even lighting from front to back will be a challenge, to say the least.

The lights will need to be high. At least as high as the camera and preferably higher. Your option A will only light the front row. Option B, plus a couple cheap light stands (they go a lot higher than tripods) would be better in terms of placement.

I wouldn't bother with diffusers on the flash units. They waste light and won't improve things at that distance without a white ceiling to throw the light back down. If you aim the lights just above the heads of the back row, you might get enough fall-off from the edge of the beam to avoid overexposing the front row.

For the last class reunion shot I did, there were fewer rows of people, I was further away and had a white ceiling, and I still had to do two RAW conversions and combine layers to get even exposure from front to back. These situations are pretty difficult.

Warn the group as soon as they're in place that you will need to take several shots, and you need to wait several seconds between shots for the lights to recycle. The reality of large group shots is that if you get 50 people together and come up with one shot where you can see 49 heads with 45 pairs of open eyes, it's pretty much a success.

[Dream Merchant]

Curtis, thanks for sharing that.

I will try to see if I can bum off two light stands from the rental co that I'm getting all the cam/lenses from. Would probably have to pay $40 for two, if I can get the 60s mounted in them.

Looks like option 'B', which is firing right up to the back/high corner L and R of the stage is the best way to go right now...unless something else comes to mind.

Speaking of white ceilings, and bouncing back some light ... what if I went with option A, but instead of firing the 60s back at a piece of board directly towards the group, I fire them upwards and back, and get two people to hold large foam boards (say 1 meter by 1.5 meters) angled back at the group? I would have to set the 60s a little futher back for more light distribution ... I could also put the two 60s on a tripod or stand, on top of a table, and have the two 'volunteers' stand on chairs. My only fear is that this is going to take too much time to set-up and execute properly.

Oh, not sure if this is important, but the little Canon flash on my hotshoe to throw light to the back of the group is a 540, and not a 420.

[Curtis N]

My only fear is that this is going to take too much time to set-up and execute properly.That's my fear, too. And I don't think bouncing light off white boards will really help the biggest problem, which is even distribution from front to back. This is a matter of distance and light fall-off, not the size of the light sources. Making the light sources larger will only soften the shadows somewhat.

You want a plan that allows you to setup the lights first, then arrange the group, climb up on your stage and shoot. If you spend even a minute messing with stuff while they're lined up, they will run out of patience real quick.

This is coming from someone who has heard the phrase "Just take the damn picture!" more than once. ;)

[Dream Merchant]

Thanks Cutis. I really appreciate it! ;)

I'll go with your earlier suggestion of Plan B, hopefully with higher light stands.

BTW, I'm getting someone from the group to marshall and get them organised while I set-up.

Thanks again Curtis.

Also hope that someone else who ever has to shoot a large group over 20-30 people in a dim location benefits from this thread, and your kind sharing.

CHEERS!

[airfrogusmc]

That sounds like very sound advice to me.
Curtis is the strobe guru.

[Dream Merchant]

I've been agonising over this endlessly. Even thought of a rather ungainly 17 wide, 3 deep arrangement if I couldn;t get enough depth coverage.

Well, I'v ebeen readind and re-reading everything everyone was saying, especially the excellent pointers Curtis provided, as well as other threads and just let everything swim around my head for awhile.

I may have stumbled on something tonight, so I decided to give it a try since I had the equipment with me anyways.

Basically, 1 x 60 at full blast with a Big Bounce set up about 3 meters above the stage, fired backwards into a outeard curved white board, and a 45CL mounted on cam set on Auto, with the Canon set on 1/8 manual to throw light to the back of the group.

Here's what I got:

http://clprodn.smugmug.com/photos/185135934-M-0.jpg

The light looks gentler, and more even, plus it seems like there's a bit more depth covered! Since I will be shooting this with a almost 12MP 5D, and I have lenses that go down to 15mm, I'm not worried about the fall-off at the sides because I could always go a little wide and crop.

PLUS, I now have an extra 60 which I could set up at the back of the hall for a rear rim-light! :lol: I will get a much larger foamcore board and try that a little further back from the 60 with the Big Bounce. Should give me slightly more spread.

Does it look like I have enough evenly covered depth?

[JaertX]

If you set up your lights that far apart, to either side of the camera position, you're going to end up casting shadows all over the place. Keep the lights pretty much behind you and pointed at the group. Or bounce off a wall behind you. For a large group like this, keeping the light flat should be the goal.

[Dream Merchant]

Jaert, in last night's test it's far apart. In tonight's test it's just next to the cam.

CHEERS!

[JaertX]

re-read your post and I see that now. I'm slow...sorry! anyway, good luck and let us know how it goes!