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View Full Version : What do you do if your client doesn't like their photos?


MrsOpie
20th of August 2007 (Mon), 23:21
delete

Kathy H
20th of August 2007 (Mon), 23:36
What are their complaints?

Megapixle
20th of August 2007 (Mon), 23:39
Maybe ask them to clarify what their expectations were? Hopefully they would have already seen plenty of my sample portfolio and had a good idea what to expect. And I'm not talking about a portfolio consisting of my best shots only, I mean a typical, entire shoot.

~mp

Ronald S. Jr.
20th of August 2007 (Mon), 23:43
If they didn't see sample images, it's their fault. If you didn't show them anything, it's your fault. Make sense? :lol:

Like Megapixle said...they should have seen your portfolio. If you didn't perform to your portfolio's standard, then you're fully to blame. Showing them your best shot says "I can get you this". If they just don't care for them, but they're quality work, then **** 'em. I'd say if they're paying customers, and they've paid you the full amount, give 'em half back if they throw a fuss. Nothing worse than bad comments being stirred around town about you.

italianfemmy
20th of August 2007 (Mon), 23:50
Oy girl - you're just having it rough lately.

First, take a deep breath.

What specifically is it about the photos that the client does not like? Did the client get proofs and did they okay the proofs?

If you did everything you were supposed to do and they signed a contract, they are obligated to fulfill the contract.

Was this one of your free weddings?

italianfemmy
20th of August 2007 (Mon), 23:51
Ok, you just answered a couple of my questions. You owe this client nothing if you charged this client nothing. However - maybe it's something as simple as not liking your PP style... which is easily fixable. Word of mouth is such a powerful thing.

dshootist
20th of August 2007 (Mon), 23:52
This is a good question, but I'd like to know some background info. Since I'm not sure if this is a current situation for you or you're being hypothetical, I'll use the third person angle. Did they see the portfolio or samples beforehand? How many samples? Was there a consultation beforehand where the style of the shoot and other expectations were discussed? Does a contract exist for this shoot? How were the proofs offered (CD or prints)? What exactly don't they like, and is it something that can be fixed with diligent pp? Was there any communication between photog and B&G during the shoot regarding complications or how well it was (or wasn't) progressing?

After reading your most recent reply, it sounds like they might be trying to sleaze their way to some free photography all 'round. This CD they want, is it supposed to have the digital negatives on it so they can "print whatever they want?"

picturecrazy
20th of August 2007 (Mon), 23:54
oh gosh, I'm so sorry. It's really tough starting out and really, the less people pay, the more they demand, and the crummier they treat you. It's so ironic, but that's how it goes. It seems like you are dealing with BS after BS.

But I think your photos are worth paying for, and well.. I'm a pro. Wade through this crap and you'll be laughing at it in a couple years.

They are probably just being super cheapskates. Saying they'd buy an album but copping out because they don't want to pay the price. That's what I'm guessing, because if they hated the photos then they wouldn't even want the CD.

MrsOpie
20th of August 2007 (Mon), 23:59
This is a good question, but I'd like to know some background info. Since I'm not sure if this is a current situation for you or you're being hypothetical, I'll use the third person angle. Did they see the portfolio or samples beforehand? How many samples? Was there a consultation beforehand where the style of the shoot and other expectations were discussed? Does a contract exist for this shoot? How were the proofs offered (CD or prints)? What exactly don't they like, and is it something that can be fixed with diligent pp? Was there any communication between photog and B&G during the shoot regarding complications or how well it was (or wasn't) progressing?

since this is a public forum I would like to answer some questions without releasing too much info. current situation. the client did not see samples of this certain type of photography. I was giving away 4 free session to build a portfolio in that area. there was discussion ahead of time but not in person. there is no contract. proofs were offered online in a private gallery. What the client does not like is that the pictures aren't a certain style and the ones that are the client does not like. The photo session was not a wedding but a scheduled photo shoot.

italianfemmy
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 00:01
Mrs. Opie.. can I PM you?

Ronald S. Jr.
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 00:46
They know you're starting out...what the hell do they expect? You don't get the world for free (no offense- nothing about you personally!) They should have asked to see some images of most anything, just to see your style. How do they expect you to just magically know their favorite "style" and know to shoot that way? I have my own "style" I like, but I do a few different things if that's what they want. However, I've done quite a lot of weddings over the past couple years, and I've learned some things!

I think they're just expecting way too much from you. It's their own fault if they don't like them. Bottom line- what'd they expect from a beginning wedding shooter, for free?


Again, no offense. Sounds like I'm busting on you...I'm not.

cdifoto
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 00:55
Word of mouth from this kind of customer doesn't matter. Set some high-ish prices on your website and wash yourself of this skankdom NOW.

Oh and don't even give them the CD. Tell them you'll just walk away and keep the images. No skin off your back or theirs. Tell them to take you to court if that's a problem. No money changed hands and there is no contract, so they have nothing to go on. If you give them the disk, you only encourage this kind of behavior...free shoot or not.

Ronald S. Jr.
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 00:59
That's most of the reason why I raised my prices on my site. I'm tired of "budget brides".

notapro
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 01:26
I have no experience in this area, but I agree that you can't be blamed for not guessing their favourite style of photo. I know it would suck, but I think that you should give them the CD (can you charge for it or was it already promised to them?), with photos at a resolution good enough for 4x6s but nothing else. If they really don't like them, why would they want enlargements? Sounds like they're just trying to cheap out anyway, but I wouldn't want to leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth.

Since this was a scheduled shoot and presumably re-doable, why not tell them that you're really disappointed (but not sorry) to hear that the style wasn't what they had in mind and that now that you have a better idea of what they're after, you'd be happy to book another shoot. Then point them toward your new pricelist. Suggest the biggest package.

Nicole Faith
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 01:49
I've read your recent posts and that is just terrible overall.

Personally, upfront, you did the shoot for free and it was arranged online. If I was the client and getting a free photo shoot - I wouldn't expect anything more then what I get as the end product. Good or bad - because it was free. If for some reason I didn't really like the outcome - I would surely pick out a few images I did like and buy them because as any normal person can see, you are trying to start a business.

It is amazing what people expect for nothing and sadly, how stupid they are. I don't think you owe them anything more then what you have done already. I agree a low-res CD at best if they don't want to buy prints from you. And just thank them for the oppertunity for shooting them and that they were lovely people. Truthfully, if I was able to get some photos for free I would have asked for samples before hand, just to see. If I knew I was a complainer and a prissy b*tch - I would have asked for samples before hand. Since they didn't - well then, no need to worry. It was more for you then them anyways.

Doubt that helped at all - but you really shouldn't let people walk all over you in that way - it can't help you or your expectations either. I have seen your work and it's great.

highway0691
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 01:54
Thank them, Say goodbye to them, Wish them well - Lesson learnt - Move on!

Cheers

damian

Salleke
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 05:44
Thank them, Say goodbye to them, Wish them well - Lesson learnt - Move on!

Cheers

damian

Damian,

I know what you mean. No offence but for me it doesn't work that way.

When I take pictures at a wedding or other shoot I give my best to do it the
best I can and make the client happy. Like we all do I suppose.

But if afterworths I'm treathed like an idiot I'm pissed and angry and for a
while I'm very dissappointed and for me it's not easy to forget it in a heartbeat.

Again no offence meant here it's just how I would feel.

Good luck...

tim
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 05:53
Oh and don't even give them the CD. Tell them you'll just walk away and keep the images. No skin off your back or theirs. Tell them to take you to court if that's a problem. No money changed hands and there is no contract, so they have nothing to go on. If you give them the disk, you only encourage this kind of behavior...free shoot or not.

I wouldn't think that's a great idea. I'd do my best to keep them happy, a little effort will probably pay off in the long run.

tlc
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 06:08
offer them a reshoot = you really have to save face here - your just starting out. you need to learn to deal with these types of people especially if your doing weddings = you will get all types.

a reshoot is really nothing - your not losing out and it may help you - you never know, discuss with them the exact style they want. some where down the line you may meet another couple who wnat that same style. what is there to lose?

cdifoto
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 06:10
I wouldn't think that's a great idea. I'd do my best to keep them happy, a little effort will probably pay off in the long run.

Don't let them keep a product that they express such dissatisfaction with. A little effort for this type doesn't pay off. They just go running to their other mooch friends bragging about how easily it was to get a free deal.

Trust me, I know this. I have family that do the same thing. They don't go around telling people how awesome the photog was for going above and beyond...they complain about how it required a second shoot!

RobKirkwood
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 06:17
I was giving away 4 free session to build a portfolio in that area. there was discussion ahead of time but not in person. there is no contract.I know it's no use in this particular case - but always have a paper agreement, even for free jobs ...the problem without one is you've no idea whether you've actually delivered what was expected of you - people misunderstand and make assumptions.

If I were in this position I think I'd offer to redo, and for free.

Rob

JimAskew
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 06:17
This sounds like a "style" issue not a "quality" issue. I've seen your posted work here and quality is not an issue IMHO. So, wish them luck and send them on their way...tell them you will destroy the files since they were not what was expected...end of story.

LeesaB
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 06:31
What a lesson in something for nothing...They are scamming ya. They probably like your pics, just want the disc and not have to pay a dime and run to costco and make their own pics.

Don't take this one personal at all...and no more free weddings...

Try a bridal show to get the word out, that is what got us out there, then some newspaper advertising.

I agree with CDI. Get rid of them, and move on....

Like water off a ducks back, don't even let it bother you.

Desertraptor
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 06:41
Give them high res images on cd so they can run elsewhere to print?

I wouldnt give them anything they can print larger than 5x7. If they want larger then they are after a cheap shoot to do what I suspect. Take advantage of your generosity.

sando
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 08:09
Sounds to me like they may just be saying they don't want an album as it's maybe a cheaper option to just get the CD and print themselves. I don't think they wanted an album in the first place.

They were a bit cheap, but there's nothing wrong with that... we all like a great deal! :)

Maybe next time you should have a contract and a deposit for the album, instead. Otherwise be prepared for people doing this to you.

I know a couple who took advantage of a studio offering free sittings by having a nice few hours being made-up and having their hair done by a hairdresser only to buy a single 5"x7" for 10. I jokingly called them "cheap" and they agreed... but they both got their hair done, had a nice few hours being pampered and got a nice photo for 10. Can't argue with that. :)

Hassan2285
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 08:15
This sucks,

I think your photos are great!! I can really see your style coming out of them.

I'm sure this will pass, I have been lucky with my freebie.

TeeJay
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 08:31
If they don't like the photo's - what's the point of giving them a CD containing all the images. Full stop!

I would certainly offer them a re-shoot (as your only final offer) Then, discuss exactly what it is they want (which maybe - forgive me if I've missed something - should have happened first time round) and re-shoot as per the original agreement.

As Tim has so rightly said, a little effort at this point could pay dividends in the long run.

Good Luck!

TJ

imhotep
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 09:31
...the less people pay, the more they demand, and the crummier they treat you.

Amen to that.

GertS
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 10:04
That's what I'm guessing, because if they hated the photos then they wouldn't even want the CD.

I second this.

Nobody asks for the CD if they argue that they don't like the images. They are looking for getting the most out of you. They are not looking for the penny, they are tight-fisted.
Probably they are asking for the printed album for free too. :rolleyes:

liza
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 10:06
Offer a reshoot and nothing more. They're just trying to get a freebie.

Kai
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 10:07
I'm wondering if they did not like themself in the pictures. Your work is great.

cosworth
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 10:14
the client originally planed on purchasing an album as a gift for someone else but after seeing the photos the client just wants a disc and state the photos are not good enough to spend money on an album and give as a gift.

You're being sold something.

Stand firm and just tell them you don't do CDs. Sell prints and protect your craft.

cosworth
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 10:15
as teejay states...

I learned something very crucila in my first weeks of being in sales

The happiest customer pays the most

It's an odd fact but it's true.

JMHPhotography
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 10:20
Sounds to me like they are really trying to scam you. You give up a CD, and they will go to the nearest wal-mart and print print print. I wouldn't do it. I do agree that you should offer a re-shoot instead with more guidance from them as to exactly what they are looking for. If they refuse the re-shoot and insist on the CD, you pretty much know right there that they were never interested in buying an album for a gift or whatever. Then you just walk away.

cosworth
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 10:23
I'm in the no reshoot and just wait for the phone call camp.

I've done this a lot. Luckily my customers were leaving within a week on a plane with no chance of getting the shots ever again. I saw them again and they had cash in hand. Very rarely did my phone ring from abroad (literally worldwide) with customers wishing I still had their photos on file.

Bobster
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 10:24
got the pics so we can see?

bleeds
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 10:41
You need to know how to read people.

It's OBVIOUS they are cheapskates. They don't want to pay for prints because they figured they can go off and make them for pennies. So it's better to give you some bogus line, about how they 'hate your work' so they can get out of paying for aything.

Honestly, this makes me very angry, this mindset. I've encountered before. It turned me off to these types of invididuals. As soon as I get a whiff of that bull, I sever ties immediately, and don't feel one bit of obligation toward them. You already have an idea what they are like. Most likely, if you DO end up pleasing them, they'll invite more rabid moochers to your doorstep. Disconnect at once.


And another thing I wanted to bring up. Why shoot anything for free? I don't give anything away for free. Even when I didn't know what I was doing. Even for my friends.

My time is valuable. And my expertise is valuable.

This may sound insulting, but I must say it - why do we as women believe we need to whore ourselves out for FREE and then feel guilty because someone didn't like us??? Develop a tougher skin. Unfortunately, I find that being a female photographer, some potential clients come to you with the idea that you should give more and expect less, like someone's overworked mother. I am not their mother or nurturer. I am a professional attempting to make them look and feel beautiful for a few special moments in their lives. Am I soft and sweet and funny? Yes! But boundaries need to be in place.

notapro
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 10:48
Just a thought - maybe they just don't want an album? I would never want an album of one portrait session. I'd never look at it and the pro ones aren't cheap. If that was the agreement, then it sucks that they're not buying one, but I can kind of understand that. I would never have agreed to buy one in the first place, though. Just prints.

Hassan2285
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 11:10
You need to know how to read people.

It's OBVIOUS they are cheapskates. They don't want to pay for prints because they figured they can go off and make them for pennies. So it's better to give you some bogus line, about how they 'hate your work' so they can get out of paying for aything.

Honestly, this makes me very angry, this mindset. I've encountered before. It turned me off to these types of invididuals. As soon as I get a whiff of that bull, I sever ties immediately, and don't feel one bit of obligation toward them. You already have an idea what they are like. Most likely, if you DO end up pleasing them, they'll invite more rabid moochers to your doorstep. Disconnect at once.


And another thing I wanted to bring up. Why shoot anything for free? I don't give anything away for free. Even when I didn't know what I was doing. Even for my friends.

My time is valuable. And my expertise is valuable.

This may sound insulting, but I must say it - why do we as women believe we need to whore ourselves out for FREE and then feel guilty because someone didn't like us??? Develop a tougher skin. Unfortunately, I find that being a female photographer, some potential clients come to you with the idea that you should give more and expect less, like someone's overworked mother. I am not their mother or nurturer. I am a professional attempting to make them look and feel beautiful for a few special moments in their lives. Am I soft and sweet and funny? Yes! But boundaries need to be in place.



I don't think this is a male/female issue. I had to "whore" myself out for my first wedding, and I did it to get experience. The couple I worked with were on a budget but they were very kind and didn't take advantage of my offer at all. I think this issue is ONLY about the people being cheapskates and wanting to get something for free.

just my .02 cents.

Alan W
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 12:06
Can you clarify - was the deal that they got the wedding shoot free with all the images on CD and there was an 'understanding' that they would buy an album? If so you may have made a bit of a rod for your own back here. Its not unusual for the couple to find themselves in a lot of debt after the big day as they often spend far more than they had ever dreamed of. This sometimes sinks in after the wedding and they then decide to carry out a bit of damage limitation i.e 'we cant afford an album now but at least we have the images on disc and can mabe sort an album when we are back on our feet'. This is why I never do a job without the money up front, the couple know exactly what they are getting and there is a contract to protect both them and more importantly me. In their eyes they may feel that they have every right to the disc as you were trying out a technique and using them as guinea pigs. On the other hand they may have deliberately taken advantage of you. You may never know which but you now have to ask whether they could now damage or tarnish your reputation and also whether you feel comfortable witholding the images form their special day. If you are just starting out try to keep to more established photography styles and TAKE THE MONEY UP FRONT

italianfemmy
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 12:52
I spoke with Mrs. Opie last night and she said that the bride didn't feel there was enough photos she liked to fill an album. But, that she'd like the images on CD and will pay for the CD. She doesn't want the CD for free. She just says there's not enough images to put in an album.

Based on what Mrs. Opie told me, I feel even still she's being taken advantage of but she's not GIVING anything for free. She is indeed charging for the CD.

And from now on, she knows she's good enough to take charge and get that money for those jobs.

Hassan2285
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 12:55
Alicia, That was such a great response. You responded exactly as lawyers do. I just thought it was a little funny.

I might have you represent me in future threads;)

italianfemmy
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 13:08
lol. I just didn't want people to keep going on and on saying she's not charging for anything because she is. I also didn't want to give away any info she doesn't want in public, so I made quick bulletin comments.

Thanks for the compliment however. ;-)

inlovewithphotos
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 13:43
Fine,

I wasn't going to do this, because I wasn't sure if it was appropriate or not, but I am.

I am the client MrsOpie is talking about. I just called her and talked to her and I think we both feel better, but I still wanted to post.

I am not cheap. I do like a good deal, no doubt :) But I'm not trying to get something for nothing.

I do LOVE MrsOpie's style. She shot engagements for me that I LOVED. I didn't purchase prints, but I did purchase a CD. I didn't realize there was so much tied up in all this and that it was "common courtesy" to purchase prints and all that stuff. Honestly, I didn't know that I was being rude or ungrateful or anything. I thought paying her for a CD was enough. My bad. And that is the honest to god truth. Yes, I made a ton of prints from it for my invitations and yes, I used the images to make a shutterfly guest book, but I didn't realize I was ripping anyone off in this respect, since I did pay for the CD. I guess I was just naive, since I am not in the industry. I now feel bad that she might think I ripped her off. I was going under the viewpoint that since she was new, the free session was in exchange for letting her experiment with me and my photos, to help her build a portfolio. So I didn't think that either of us should have been obligated for more. But I guess a lot of the photographers on this board feel differently, and I kind of understand it.

I admire MrsOpie's work so much and have such respect for her and what she's trying to do (start her own business at such a young age), that I regularly stalk her posts on this board and have booked her as a second shooter for photos of our guys before my wedding (as well as am paying her to videotape it --something she has no experience in). That's how much I trust her work and love it.

She was trying to protect my privacy by not providing too many details, but I will post my exact email to her from last evening. Keep in mind that there was no agreement for me to purchase anything ahead of time. No album agreement, CD agreement, nothing. The only agreement was that she would come shoot me (for free), and I was extremely grateful for that:

"Hey Opie!

Thanks for the pictures. You got some really pretty shots.

I think I will just go with the CD. I was planning on ordering an
album originally, but the shots that you got that I actually like are
not risque enough for me and are actually more glamoury instead of
boudoir-y. Most of the ones that verge on boudoir I don't love (half
because I think some are not flattering angles and half because of my
own body hang ups) -- though there are a couple exceptions to this.
Just not enough to fill an album I don't think. So I would love to
buy the CD, to have and look back on when I'm old :) I just don't
think they will work for giving to my fiance, so I can't see dropping the
money on an album. I don't want you to read this and think I don't
like the pics. I do. They just won't really work for what I wanted
them for.

Thanks again for the shoot. I did have a lot of fun! If you paypal
me an invoice, I'll get ya paid ASAP! :)"

There are some GORGEOUS shots on the CD -- don't get me wrong. I had just spent months scouring theknot.com and saw ones that were a lot more revealing and more of what I expected to give to my fiance. In fact, I showed my fiance the proofs last night, and he wants to have one of them to keep on his desk at work. That's how tame they are. And I do take some of the blame for that. I was so nervous that I had to drink heavily to even do the shoot (I was drunk by 4 in the afternoon), and I think I was just too nervous to come out and ask to do anything more playboy (though on one occasion I did ask if she wanted me to do a pose nude, and she said no). Some of the pics were wonderful, some were completely unflattering and verged on gross (but we are also our own worst critics, so don't think I am calling MrsOpie's work gross!). I should note that I'm fat, so it could also be that I wouldn't have liked them regardless, it's just hard to say. I do plan to make one or two prints from the CD, but honestly the amount I paid for the CD is more than I would have paid Opie had I just ordered a couple prints.

Anyhow, I just had to post, because I was getting sick of being called a cheap skank. :) Hope that clears things up a little. I actually would be completely happy sharing the entire album of pics. If MrsOpie is willing to post the login and password to the album, I would be completely fine with that.

Hassan2285
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 13:57
WOW, great post inlovewithphotos. puts a whole new light on the matter.

I would love to see the photos if MrsOpie is okay with it.

good luck

italianfemmy
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 14:15
Ummm wow. Somehow I think this thread should be deleted.

Megapixle
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 14:20
LOL, our clients are stalking us....

~mp

bleeds
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 15:50
I don't think this is a male/female issue. I had to "whore" myself out for my first wedding, and I did it to get experience. The couple I worked with were on a budget but they were very kind and didn't take advantage of my offer at all. I think this issue is ONLY about the people being cheapskates and wanting to get something for free.

just my .02 cents.



Hassan, quite frankly, you are not female, so you cannot know what I'm talking about. I always give 110%. Always. Maybe your clients didn't take try to take advantage because you are male. It's kind of like selling a car to a guy vs. a woman.

I know you might not believe it, but there is an expectation that women should do more, be more empathetic to their financial situations, therefore they expect you to give them 'break' on a price. You know how many times I've had this happen before I placed firm boundaries between myself and my clients, essentially becoming less "female" until I've solidifed the deal? Do you know I never get those kinds of customers anymore. And thank goodness.

Now I don't know exactly what happened in Opie's case, as her client presents another POV, but generally when you are a female in this business, people expect...scratch that...demand that you be more generous, in subtle, manipulative ways.

Ronald S. Jr.
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 16:01
LOL, our clients are stalking us....

~mp

I've often wondered if my clients are checking up on me...:lol: Especially since I use a POTN strap at all my events!

italianfemmy
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 16:03
Again, all I can say is wow. I think Mrs. OPie needs to PM a mod and see if they'll completely delete this thread. This is bad business and now a client (however much she did or did not pay) has come here and been offended and called names and whatnot. This is just bad bad bad.

JWright
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 16:13
Boy, everybody here has touched on all the reasons I got out of this kind of photography. Weddings are a dog-eat-dog rat race with too much competition, even in the budget end, and way too many ungrateful clients.

The last wedding I shot I did because the bride was the niece of a close friend. I got a half-hearted thank you from the bride after I delivered the CD and she never said whether she liked the photos or not.

I once did an outdoor shoot (in a public park) for a young lady who was an aspiring performer and how did she repay me? She went to the manager of the store where we both worked and accused me of soliciting nude photography, getting me fired in the process.

Nope! No more people photography for me... I now shoot airshows part time for a monthly aviation publication and do nature, wildlife and landscape photography for my own enjoyment.

inlovewithphotos
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 16:17
Again, the client talking :)

I don't care if the thread remains, from my stand point. I mean MrsOpie didn't insult me, and I still love her, so there's no bad business or bad feelings that way. If MrsOpie feels differently and wants it deleted, that is fine.

Just so you all are aware though, I didn't do any serious searching to find this board. In fact, MrsOpie was the first one to shoot my engagements (I had two sets done, one by her because I liked her style and one by a photographer I had found before seeing her style). For the second set of engagements I was looking for a location to shoot in, and I just googled something like "salt lake city engagement photos" or something like this and this board was one of the first ones that popped up, because MrsOpie had posted our engagement shots. So yes, you clients can find you here pretty easily :)

And I don't really mind being called a skanky cheapskate because I know you all don't know me and didn't know the whole situation :)

dshootist
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 16:23
Client interaction or not, I believe this thread becomes all the more important to those learning how to conduct themselves as professional photographers with this new information.

inlovewithphotos
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 16:29
Exactly. I was wondering how these photographers actually speak and interact with their clients if they have such animosity to call a complete stranger names and assume things...

But that's another thread.

I do think MrsOpie's question was a valid one. Obviously at some point in a photographer's life, someone is going to be unhappy with their pics. And it won't always be because they are ungrateful, unappreciative, want something for nothing, or are just nutty. Through my stalking, I have read most of you admit that some days you shoot better than others. That's natural!!! So at some point someone is going to be unhappy and she just wanted to know how to deal with it. I actually saw very little good advice on here for her, other than insulting me, but some of you were very professional and had some good advice and points. If I can speak for her, I think that was probably more what she was looking for here, rather than a b**** fest about clients :)

italianfemmy
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 16:30
In my own defense, I provided her with lots of advice via PM. I didn't think that I should post the advice for how I felt her email to you should go just incase you were to come along and read it. :-) And here you are :-)

inlovewithphotos
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 16:35
:) italian -- you were one of the "good guys" I just posted about. You have been nothing but professional. If you trust the opinion of someone in skankdom :) ...

inlovewithphotos
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 16:45
Oh one more thing I wanted to bring up because I really am just curious, as a consumer of photography (who incidentally, will continue to book MrsOpie --yearly possibly-- to shoot family pics if she lets me)...

Why is it a "scam" or am I being rude or cheap by buying a CD and making prints elsewhere? They are like 14 cents at Walmart or something. Wouldn't it be dumb of me to not do this? If you have the choice of paying full price on a sofa for $700 or getting it for $200, and you are fully aware of this, wouldn't you pay the $200? Not that I'm comparing artistic expression to a sofa, but still...

It seems to be that if the photographer offers the option of purchasing a CD and sets a value on what she believes her images are worth ($100, $500, whatever) and I choose that option because it is cost-effective for me, I shouldn't be faulted for that.

What are other people's opinions? Not trying to tick anyone off....Just out to learn.

italianfemmy
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 16:56
Oh one more thing I wanted to bring up because I really am just curious, as a consumer of photography (who incidentally, will continue to book MrsOpie --yearly possibly-- to shoot family pics if she lets me)...

Why is it a "scam" or am I being rude or cheap by buying a CD and making prints elsewhere? They are like 14 cents at Walmart or something. Wouldn't it be dumb of me to not do this? If you have the choice of paying full price on a sofa for $700 or getting it for $200, and you are fully aware of this, wouldn't you pay the $200? Not that I'm comparing artistic expression to a sofa, but still...

It seems to be that if the photographer offers the option of purchasing a CD and sets a value on what she believes her images are worth ($100, $500, whatever) and I choose that option because it is cost-effective for me, I shouldn't be faulted for that.

What are other people's opinions? Not trying to tick anyone off....Just out to learn.

Okay.. I am gonna be totally honest with you here. The reason the photographer deserves for you to buy the prints from them is because that's where they get paid a reasonable cost for all the work they do.

OKay, so.. let's say your photographer invested in 5,000-15,000 dollars worth of professional gear to take your photos * a portion of cost from each clients slowly starts paying back your gear costs*

Then, your photographer spends an hour or so with you for a session like yours and many more hours, all while not charging an hourly rate.

Then, your photographer sits in front of a computer and does hours upon hours upon hours of photoshop work to make you look your very best, to fix any white balance issues, over or under exposure, to apply their style to your photos, to crop out crap that is distracting... etc.

THen she pays a fee to use a website to put your proofs up on.

Then, you get a cd with all the high rez images for 100 bucks. She made absolutely not a penny after all this. For the same time she spent working on your photos alone, she could have worked less than half that time at mcdonalds making minimum wage and still made a profit of some sort.

This is why we get offended when people want the cd with high rez images and don't want to order prints.

And to be completely honest with you, most people here (if they allow their client to buy a high rez cd) charge between 500 and 1,500 bucks for this luxury so they can be compensated for all the time spent to make them look wonderful and all the money spent to take them in the first place.

inlovewithphotos
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:05
Yeah, so that's what I don't get. If you want $500-$1500 for a CD then charge that for it. Don't get mad if you value your work and time at $100 and then I pick that option over a $1500 album. It's just bad sense on my part if I don't take that option.

As a comparison, though, my photographer I booked for my wedding (who is quite good and has been in the business for about 3-4 years), had disc packages available specifically for brides who didn't want prints. As a consumer, I liked having that option. The price for the package was $1000 and included 4 hours of shoot time and an engagement shoot. I got both the engagements and the wedding shots on a CD, so I could make prints as I wished.

I think in a more digital age, you guys have to realize that people are going to be wanting discs more and more and albums less and less (though not all people -- probably just the younger crowd who are internet savvy). You have to price yourself at what you think you're worth.

italianfemmy
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:10
I think she offered you the CD for 100 because she thought you were going to also buy the album for 150. Then she would have made 250 instead of 100. I could be wrong but this is the impression I got.

Again, we don't know the whole situation. I am just explaining to you why we get mad when people want the whole cow when they only bought the milk. She gave you a free session in exchange for your time.

One thing I'd like you to keep in mind is that CD's have no guaranteed life span. You could put it in your computer tomorrow and it could read disc error. It will be a shame if consumers try to go too far into this "digtial age" because their photos more than likely won't be lasting them 50-100 years this way. Not to mention CD's and DVD's will be outdated and replaced by something more innovative and when your cd and dvd player die, they'll be useless. An album will always be your album. :-)

Bobster
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:16
am I being rude or cheap by buying a CD and making prints elsewhere? They are like 14 cents at Walmart or something. do walmart take the photos for you as well?

tbh, if you paid say $500 for a set of 30 high res images, you got a great deal!

cosworth
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:16
My opinion still stands. You buy the package the photogrpaher offers. If you don't like it, then well, too bad.

If I go into buy a car and I don't like the colour I can't ask for an unpainted one at %50 off.

I spend STUPID amounts of time on line training myself. I've spent over $300 on books this year alone. Gear? Good lord. Gas? Business cards? Moving from the caribbean? Buying a studio? Man the costs still haven't born fruit. Not an easy gig.

So for me, I still think you agree to a deal or a contract/package, stick to it. Photography is not a cheap business. If I wanted to make easy money with $10,000 outlay I'd buy a freakin' hot dog stand.

RobKirkwood
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:16
This is why we get offended when people want the cd with high rez images and don't want to order prints.Sorry, you can count us out of this particular "we", because we don't get offended at all - we price the purchase of hi-res images appropriately for our business (and actually we've found selling hi-res to clients doesn't reduce print sales anyway). I agree entirely with inlovewithphotos on this - if the photographer offers something at a price, there's nothing wrong in buying it.

Rob

cosworth
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:18
...am I being rude or cheap by buying a CD and making prints elsewhere? They are like 14 cents at Walmart or something.

Yes, rude and cheap. Sorry. I call it how I see it. No sugar coating.

inlovewithphotos
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:19
Well, I hadn't considered she would want me to buy an album AND a CD. Again, my bad. I don't see what the point of that would even be, but again, this is the consumer talking and I have different motivations.

I don't agree about the whole "an album is forever and your disc will corrode" crap, personally. I think that's something photographers say to make consumers buy expensive albums :) If that were the case, people would not keep anything on CDs. Do you keep CDs of your shoots? Probably.

I agree that you need to back up your disc regularly and change it over to new technology as it arises. But that is just common sense.

Also, in my case, though this is getting personal, and I wasn't referring to a personal situation in my original question -- I was just wanting to get general opinions, A magazine-style album, which is what MrsOpie was suggesting is less likely to "last" than a CD. Folds, creases, rips... I have cats who love to eat paper...people have floods. The point is that with any media things can happen.

I do appreciate you sharing your POV, though, Italian.

JJacula
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:22
This is why I priced my CD/DVD, right off the bat, at $1,000 ... ON TOP of my regular wedding package rates. If someone values my work enough, they'll be willing to shell out for the CD/DVD.

inlovewithphotos might be interested in knowing that Walmart prints are CRAP ... I used them to develop photos for one horse show back when I shot film and less than two years later, the photos all changed to a different color - yellow.

Pro photographers use professional labs that the public doesn't have access to. It's part of the reason why our prints are worth more money - they don't cost US $0.14 to make, but they're also going to last 100 years - not two years.

italianfemmy
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:23
Don't think it's crap - it's the truth. I have disc errors all the time on the cd's I have my photos backed up on.. luckily I have them on my hard drive too.

As for why people buy an album and a cd, it's so they can show the prints (which are way better than digital images) to people who are over at the house or what not and if you have the images on a CD, you can also send them to your people anywhere in the world that won't be over at your house to look at your album.

inlovewithphotos
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:26
Rude as you have been to me cos, I do agree with you.

If I had agreed to purchase $400 in prints or a $1500 album, signed on it, indicated it, whatever, and then I said, "ah, never mind, can you just burn em on a CD for me?" that would be out of line. No question.

In my wedding photog's case, I agreed to his set package price for a DIGITAL package.

In MrsOpie's case, I agreed to nothing more than to let her shoot me. I didn't agree to buy anything, though I planned on it from the start.

I have never seen a photographer's contract where you have to guarantee to buy something (except for packages coming with print credits), but if I did come across that, I wouldn't sign it because it doesn't work for me.

But if a photographer offers me a product at a set price, and I take it for that price, how am I the bad guy? ???

cosworth
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:30
Well let's just put this into perspective. To come on here nad air your dirty laundry ina forum where professional meet to discuss issues, skills, busines practices etc and waste our time with your silly argument is rude as hell in my books.

This is an offline discussion that you and you photographer should be discussing. to try and shame her into doing what you think the populace might agree with is pretty limp.

Phone her and get it resolved immediately and unless you are a Canon user and a Photographer, leave.

italianfemmy
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:32
I have been trying to think of a good analogy that's simple and easy to understand so here it is:

Group of kids are on the side of the road with signs saying "free car wash" they also have signs saying they're trying to raise money to get a new gym, better school equipment .. whatever."

Even if they did the crappiest job in the world, I'd still toss them a few bucks and if they did a fabulous job, I'd throw them even more even though it was "free."

Mrs. Opies style is great. She has become well liked amongst us all and we all LOVE her work. Based on you saying you're plus size, I guess you're the one who was wearing the black shirt and blue jeans for your engagement shoot and she used bold colored walls in the background of your shots? Those were AMAZING high quality professional images.

This deserves something whether it was asked for or not.

You tip a waitress, not because she asks for it but because she provided you with excellent service and took good care of you. :-)

inlovewithphotos
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:33
Um, no, it's a public forum that's easily brought up by google, so i have every right to be here. go find a private yahoo group if you want private conversations.

and what is it exactly that i'm trying to scam my photographer into? i want nothing from her! I already booked her and sent her money (and a gift certificate for the free shoots as well), so what is the scam im supposedly running?

inlovewithphotos
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:37
Right, Italian. Which is why I booked her for future jobs, have been telling all my friends to book her, post messages and pictures on public boards commending her work, sent her a gift card for $200 worth of spa services (sorry MrsOpie, it was gonna be a surprise :P), and bought the CDs.

So I should buy an album of pictures regardless of if I want it?:cry:

italianfemmy
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:41
I am gonna say one more thing. If you already know prints at walmart are 14 cents and have already admitted you're making prints and gonna make prints, obviously you do want one. Enough said.

inlovewithphotos
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:45
No, I don't want one. An album (at least the album she was suggesting) is 20 pages.

I want prints of maybe 3 pictures. Maybe.

The others I just want on CD so down the line I can look and say "hrm, that was a good picture, hrm, that picture is funny, whatever."

I'm not even sure I'd want prints of more than one pic (the one the fiance wants for his desk). The pics are kind of in a middle ground of being not quite risque enough for a complete boudoir book and too risque to just have hanging on my wall in my house.

dshootist
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:46
Why is it a "scam" or am I being rude or cheap by buying a CD and making prints elsewhere? They are like 14 cents at Walmart or something. Wouldn't it be dumb of me to not do this? If you have the choice of paying full price on a sofa for $700 or getting it for $200, and you are fully aware of this, wouldn't you pay the $200? Not that I'm comparing artistic expression to a sofa, but still...

I wouldn't call it a "scam" so much as a professional discourtesy. I tell all of my clients that I have a lab I trust (WHCC, by the way) and they can insure that my images will be processed and printed with all of the care and diligence to the quality they were taken in. Wall Mart, et al. can do the same job, but tend to be a "turn and burn" operation where their quality can be the lowest common denominator. True, you can get good prints, but what if you don't? What's your guarantee that they will interrupt their day to expedite your order and with better quality than last time? Also, and this is more key than the money: You will be either my biggest ally or worst critic as far as future sales go. You are my most recent client and I'd like to be represented by a quality product. If you print somewhere else, and get what I would deem sub-standard prints, then I'm being represented by those. These images are as much a part of my business as they are a part of your life, so as a business, I need them to succeed on all levels. Without future clients, my business becomes unsustainable and pointless (or a hobby, take your pick). You can PM me if you disagree.

JMHPhotography
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:51
Oh one more thing I wanted to bring up because I really am just curious, as a consumer of photography (who incidentally, will continue to book MrsOpie --yearly possibly-- to shoot family pics if she lets me)...

Why is it a "scam" or am I being rude or cheap by buying a CD and making prints elsewhere? They are like 14 cents at Walmart or something. Wouldn't it be dumb of me to not do this? If you have the choice of paying full price on a sofa for $700 or getting it for $200, and you are fully aware of this, wouldn't you pay the $200? Not that I'm comparing artistic expression to a sofa, but still...

It seems to be that if the photographer offers the option of purchasing a CD and sets a value on what she believes her images are worth ($100, $500, whatever) and I choose that option because it is cost-effective for me, I shouldn't be faulted for that.

What are other people's opinions? Not trying to tick anyone off....Just out to learn.

Well... since I was the one who actually used the word "scam" I'll tell you where my thinking was on this matter. I was under the impression that you were complaining about the photos, but wanted them all on CD anyway. If it was mentioned that you were offering to PAY for the CD, I totally missed it. I couldn't imagine a legitimate reason for you wanting the photos at all if you were "really" unhappy with them. Therefore, I assumed scam. I just figured you were just gonna take the CD and print up the pictures and make your own album. Unfortunately, I misunderstood the actual situation. I probably should have reserved judgment here until I was aware of all the facts. My apologies for that.

But you have to understand, that "scam and cheat" mentality isn't exactly new. Where I live, people are extremely CHEAP, and always looking for a way to take advantage of a situation. I did the local preschool photos and actually had a mother tell me that she would only need a single 5x7 of the photo I took of her child. She then went on to tell me that she would just scan it in and print out wallets for everyone in her family from that on her own printer. She didn't know what she was doing was wrong. She thought it was a great way for her to save money. I won't tell you how I was able to get her to order a real package like most everyone else. lol.

This brings me to why photographers HATE it when customers re-produce their work at places like Wal-Mart. Well, I guess I should only speak for myself, but I'm sure I'm not alone. They do not produce the same level of acceptable quality in prints as my pro lab where I pay much more than 14 cents per 4x6 print. My name is associated with every print I sell, and if you scan and reprint it somewhere else, it's a reflection on my work. If you do it at a cut rate place, it becomes a bad reflection on my work. That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Believe me... if Wal-Mart produced the same level of quality as the lab I use, I'd love to increase my profit margin... but the fact is, they do not.

inlovewithphotos
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:52
No, actually I agree with that dshoot. I understand that POV.

I actually didn't go to walmart for my invitation prints. I got a better deal -- free at one of those on-line photo sites. :)

Now do I know if they will last forever? No. It was great quick service, and they look great now, but how do I know how long they will last? And if they don't, I'll be sad. And I may regret the decision. But I don't think I ripped anyone off by paying the price they asked me to pay.

italianfemmy
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:54
I wouldn't call it a "scam" so much as a professional discourtesy. I tell all of my clients that I have a lab I trust (WHCC, by the way) and they can insure that my images will be processed and printed with all of the care and diligence to the quality they were taken in. Wall Mart, et al. can do the same job, but tend to be a "turn and burn" operation where their quality can be the lowest common denominator. True, you can get good prints, but what if you don't? What's your guarantee that they will interrupt their day to expedite your order and with better quality than last time? Also, and this is more key than the money: You will be either my biggest ally or worst critic as far as future sales go. You are my most recent client and I'd like to be represented by a quality product. If you print somewhere else, and get what I would deem sub-standard prints, then I'm being represented by those. These images are as much a part of my business as they are a part of your life, so as a business, I need them to succeed on all levels. Without future clients, my business becomes unsustainable and pointless (or a hobby, take your pick). You can PM me if you disagree.



So well said. What's out there is a representation of us as photographers.

cosworth
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:57
Do a search on here for "Wal-Mart". You might actually have trouble getting Wally World to print without a text file on the CD/DVD with express permission from the photographer.

Again, your dirty laundry really shouldn't be aired here. Use your telephone and get it solved. Your argument of private conversation is lost on you since it is you who should be taking it private. Secondly, this site is owned by Pekka and moderated in a professional manner. By no means is it a public entity or public sand box for you to throw mud. To be here you play by the rules and you respect common courtesy.

If one doesn't follow forums rules you are turfed. So far you are following them. You don't get to be here "just because". If this were my forum you'd have been booted long ago and this thread locked with PM's to both you and the shooter to resolve your issue elsewhere.

inlovewithphotos
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 17:58
That IS well said. And I totally understand the concern with that.

I think if that is the situation, though, then photographers shouldn't offer CDs. Why open yourself up to that kind of problem? I guess because people ask for it? But most photogs I know have the option to buy the disc clearly printed with their pricing...I'd at least make people ask for it :)

inlovewithphotos
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 18:01
cos, for the last time, there is no issue with the photog, and I did already call her this morning.

Apparently one photographer isn't a good reader :)

I would think you would welcome a consumer's point of view to help you hone your business and your contracts toward a what is a happy medium between what you want and what the consumer is expecting. Then cases like this (the photographer expecting a bunch of prints orders and the client just getting a cd) wouldn't come up.

Megapixle
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 18:02
inlovewithphotos, I'm a newbie wedding photographer and I must say I can see where you're coming from. I don't know why photographers get steamed when clients fail to adhere to some mysterious rules of "common courtesy". In my world, I'll price my products as to what makes sense for my business, and the client is free to choose what they'd like off my menu. If I don't like what the client is choosing, I'm the one who needs to adjust the menu. The client is obligated only to pay for what's stated in the contract.

Imagine going to a restaurant and enjoying your meal, but not ordering dessert, only to learn that the chef is steamed that you didn't order dessert. Are you a horrible customer because you didn't order a piece of cheesecake?

~mp

italianfemmy
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 18:03
inlovewithphotos:

I recieved the password and log in info you sent me in PM and went to the site to see these pictures. There are MANY that could be used for budouir. As for the ones that look more "glamour" - wow they got you lookin like a hot mamma.

Those photos are really nice and she did an excellent job of making you look much smaller in some photos (you had mentioned about unflattering angles), and there are lots of pics I would not put on my desk at work if I was your man.
(unless it was a home office of course ;-) )

I really don't see what the problem is after having looked at them. Yeah, you're a big girl but she did a good job of putting the "big in shadows". Those are quite nice images.

One thing I'd like to say is that if you had worn some sexy lingerie, this might have gone over better. In some, you wore a tight dress but in others, you have a frumpy shirt on opened up creating a line down your body straight to your stomach. Never a good idea for a plus size girl (this is coming from one plus size girl to another). I think a good deal of these photos would have been even better if you'd simply come to the shoot a bit more prepared and worn something more "sexy" for these pics you wanted to be very risky! :-)

Maybe you can keep that in mind for next time though. ;-)

inlovewithphotos
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 18:07
Hey italian -- MrsOpie actually asked me to put on the shirt. It wasn't my idea. I had on just the bra and panties and wasn't planning on using a shirt. I didn't get any proofs of me in just a bra and panties or any in just my white cami and panties which i wore for a lot of the shoot, so I was guessing they just didn't come out well. I definitely didn't want a bunch of pictures of just me in a tight dress. I also love a ton of them on the bed. But there is one shot from a bunch of angles. I can't have a 20 page book and have the same shot in it 10 times :)

inlovewithphotos
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 18:15
Opie just emailed me and told me she tried to lock the post, so I am done posting, in case it is making her uncomfortable.

Just one last word of advice, especially geared towards cos. This IS a public forum in that anyone can register for a name, can post, and can access it from google. Apparently cos doesn't know the definition of "public forum."

Just don't insult your clients or anything like that here....you never know who may be looking :)

italianfemmy
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 18:16
Oh.. well she probably had you put on the shirt and have it open because you had to have some drinks because you were nervous about unflattering angles and about your body. She was probably nervous because you were so self concious and she was probably quite afraid of making you look too big and you being upset. And to be honest dear, since the tight dress was the only thing you had other than the bra and panties, she was probably trying to get you to wear the shirt so that it would cover some things you wouldn't wanna see in photos.

You already don't like how you look in some of them as it is. Imagine if it were just a bra and panties that exposed you in all your true plus size nakedness - you probably wouldn't have liked many more of them..

Again.. just keep in mind... some sheer black lingerie or something can make the next session oh so much better. Suck in that belly and seduce the camera with your eyes. You have a beautiful face and nice eyes. Use them to seduce the camera. Really pushes the edge to make them more sexy for your man. :-)

bnlearle
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 18:26
I think a lot of this is somewhat ridiculous. Not so much because of the OP, or anything. For those who are saying a client shouldn't buy and print themselves, it's not up to the client. The photographer decides whether or not a client is able to purchase a disk of high-res images. The client has no control over that, therefore cannot be blamed for taking the photographer up on his/her offer. I sell my high-res images expecting that the sale will likely end my print sales. Therefore, I price accordingly.

Again, if a photographer sells a disk for $100, that is his/her decision/fault. To get upset at the client for taking them up on that offer is just unreasonable (I don't think that the OP did that at all, by the way).

randplaty
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 18:26
wow

italianfemmy
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 18:30
Mrs. Opie has asked the thread be locked and this is making her very uncomfortable so I think I and everyone else should leave it out of this public forum from here on out.

bnlearle
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 18:46
Maybe it would get locked faster if she asked herself? Just a thought....

Additionally, to the OP, I don't feel you have anything to be embarrassed about ;) You asked a sincere question and some others gave their advice. No problems in my book (especially since your client wasn't even upset about your posting).

pwm2
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 18:47
Don't think it's crap - it's the truth. I have disc errors all the time on the cd's I have my photos backed up on.. luckily I have them on my hard drive too.

As for why people buy an album and a cd, it's so they can show the prints (which are way better than digital images) to people who are over at the house or what not and if you have the images on a CD, you can also send them to your people anywhere in the world that won't be over at your house to look at your album.

Buy a better burner. Buy better media. Specifically verify that the media you bought works with your burner. Store at reasonable temperature and humidity.

With 4-digt number of disks created during over 10 years I haven't seen any tendancy that any of the disks are having problems.

If a customer buy a CD - mention that they should make a backup. But don't say that they should buy an album because they are not capable of protecting digital media. It is up to the customer to make sure that they capable enough.

pwm2
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 19:05
MrsOpie. As several has already mentioned, I don't think you need to feel embarrased for this thread. It is long because you asked an important question. It was a bit of a surprice that the customer joined the thread.

However, life is life. There are always at least as many views about a question as there are people involved. Customer and seller have never the same view. Sometimes the difference is small, sometimes large. That is expected.

The issue for you: How should you present your package, to make sure that you feel secure. The difference in view between you and your customer should not be seen as embarrasing to either part, but as a good example that as much as possible should be explicitly specified in writing just to let both sides react and make suggestions before the shoot.

Bobster
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 19:09
damn u guys get your knickers in a twist! ;)

MrsOpie
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 19:42
As the OP I felt like this thread got out of hand before my client posted comments. Also, I've been in class all day. I'm a photography student and I'm starting my own business as well. I haven't had a chance to look at this thread until right now otherwise I would have messaged an admin earlier. Its sad that many people assume so much and get so heated over something that should not have been blown out to this extent. I'm am horrified and amazed at the same time. Since I'm just starting out I value other photographers advice and comments but not at this cost. I'm just not sure if I can EVER post on this forum again.

cosworth
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 19:44
Opie just emailed me and told me she tried to lock the post, so I am done posting, in case it is making her uncomfortable.

Just one last word of advice, especially geared towards cos. This IS a public forum in that anyone can register for a name, can post, and can access it from google. Apparently cos doesn't know the definition of "public forum."

Just don't insult your clients or anything like that here....you never know who may be looking :)


I can see you're new to the internet. I sure wish a mod would actually back up this fact. This is not a public forum. It's not a right to be here, it's a privilege. as I said, if I owned this forum you'd be banned. No forum is "public". Anarchy will not prevail.

If you have a problem with that, you can phone me and I'll set you straight. Just pm me, I'll call on my dime.

MrsOpie
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 19:48
cosworth please stop.

cosworth
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 19:52
Delete your thread, make it easier on everybody.

You're equally reposonsible for this debacle. This is a totally inappropriate place to air client/photographer issues.

bnlearle
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 19:53
I can see you're new to the internet. I sure wish a mod would actually back up this fact. This is not a public forum. It's not a right to be here, it's a privilege. as I said, if I owned this forum you'd be banned. No forum is "public". Anarchy will not prevail.

If you have a problem with that, you can phone me and I'll set you straight. Just pm me, I'll call on my dime.

This might be semantics? I don't think she is saying that it is a right - like the right to a speedy trial is a right. I think she is saying that as long as she abides by the rules (which, whether she is or not, I'm sure she thinks she is), she is allowed to post stuff that you might not like her to. Saying it's public is seperate from saying it's a right.

The drama between you two is yours, not mine. But, as long as she's not breaking rules (I'm not too familiar with the rules, so I don't know if she is), she can continue, right? That goes for posts that bother me, as well ;)

cosworth
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 19:55
If one doesn't follow forums rules you are turfed. So far you are following them. You don't get to be here "just because".

This thread should be deleted or closed.

pwm2
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 19:56
I can see you're new to the internet. I sure wish a mod would actually back up this fact. This is not a public forum. It's not a right to be here, it's a privilege. as I said, if I owned this forum you'd be banned. No forum is "public". Anarchy will not prevail.

If you have a problem with that, you can phone me and I'll set you straight. Just pm me, I'll call on my dime.
It is a public forum since everyone have the right to get an account and post here. That the forum has a policy, and that the moderators and owner may ban people does not imply that the forum isn't public.

The street outside my apartment is a public place. But the cop may still arrest people who abuses their rights and walks around nude, attacks people or similar.

To my knowledge, there is no forum rule that forbids a wedding customer to post their side of things. As you should have noted, it isn't the OP and the OP's customer who have been busy throwing punches in this thread.

italianfemmy
21st of August 2007 (Tue), 20:08
Everyone, please stop. I personally do not want Mrs. Opie to leave this forum. Her work is amazing and she can be of value to us all. Not to mention, I like talking to her and hearing from her.

Bobster
22nd of August 2007 (Wed), 17:44
she can be of value to us all. really? i'm sorry, but the only thing i've learned from her is that she's still learning how to take photographs and use her camera.

sure she has a good eye, but she's the one learning the most from us..

the one thing i've learned about being on forums on the net is that you need a thick skin and not take comments so personally.. christ, she hasn't even met us!

figmented
21st of January 2008 (Mon), 13:37
wow.

lbeck
21st of January 2008 (Mon), 14:46
I can see you're new to the internet. I sure wish a mod would actually back up this fact. This is not a public forum. It's not a right to be here, it's a privilege. as I said, if I owned this forum you'd be banned. No forum is "public". Anarchy will not prevail.

If you have a problem with that, you can phone me and I'll set you straight. Just pm me, I'll call on my dime.


I know this thread is old but I have to comment...WOW

Cos, you acted like a 10 year old. You are the one making this thing so hard. Your unprofessionalism is very obvious. Everything seemed perfectly fine and things were being talked out until you started with the childish post.

Hopefully Cos have learned something from this.