Class Reunion Photo

[RGolfJ]

In your expert opinions, do you feel two AB800 will be enough to light 50 people in a class reunion portrait? Should I use my 580EX on the hotshoe as well? Walls are done in cedar with about a 20 foot high ceiling, also in cedar.
I am thinking about 1/200 at f10, ISO 200.

[RGolfJ]

No one with an opinion???

[RGolfJ]

OK Thanks.

[thekid24]

Patience is a virtue my friend....give it time...they will come.

I havent shot a group of 50 in a lOOooooong time.(pre DSLR days) so the size of it slips my memory but I think if stationed properly you can do alot with two AB800's

[Titus213]

In my expert opinion you will be hard pressed to get f10.0 at ISO 200. How wide is the room and how deep do you figure your group will be? I've got to believe that you will have the power to do the shoot but may have to up your ISO a bit.

As a disclaimer I do not own two AB800s, a 5D, nor a 580EX. I do have a 20D, one B800, a B400, a 550EX, and a 430EX. Do I still qualify as an expert?

[Curtis N]

I have lit bigger groups with less light.
I agree with Titus that you won't get f/10 at ISO 200, but you won't need to. You'll be using a wide lens from a fair distance, and you'll have plenty of DOF at f/2.8 .

The challenge is not in having enough light. The challenge is in lighting the group evenly from front to back and avoiding shadows on faces from the row in front.

I would use silver umbrellas on the ABs. An additional flash on the hotshoe is likely to cause redeye problems.

[SkipD]

In your expert opinions, do you feel two AB800 will be enough to light 50 people in a class reunion portrait? Should I use my 580EX on the hotshoe as well? Walls are done in cedar with about a 20 foot high ceiling, also in cedar.
I am thinking about 1/200 at f10, ISO 200.I've used four AB1600's with 60" umbrellas and 13-ft light stands to do a job that sounds just like that. I had the camera mounted atop an 8-foot stepladder to get the right angle.

The lights were placed very carefully to get even lighting over the whole group. I have been able to keep the lighting to within a stop over the whole group. I think I was able to work at f/11 and ISO 100 if I'm not mistaken.

[Curtis N]

I've used four AB1600's with 60" umbrellas and 13-ft light stands to do a job that sounds just like that... I think I was able to work at f/11 and ISO 100 if I'm not mistaken.I'll not question Skip's method - you can almost never have too much light for a large group. But I will throw a little math at this for those who may not have access to that many wattseconds.

If Four AB1600s will get you f/11, then
two AB1600s will get you f/8,
two AB 800s will get you f/5.6.

Now for the DOF requirement:
A 24mm lens on a 1.6x camera at f/2.8 will give you a hyperfocal distance of 36 feet. That means you should be able to get everything from 18 feet to infinity acceptably sharp. The point is that with the focal lengths and distances typical of a large group shot, stopping down is not required to get everyone in focus, even with several rows of people.

I have never had trouble getting even light distribution from side-to-side with an umbrella on each side of the camera. The challenge, no matter how much light you have, is getting even lighting from front to back. The inverse square law makes no exceptions.

The catch-22 when shooting a large group is in figuring out the best arrangement. If you arrange them in many rows, there will be more distance from front to back and more light falloff. If you arrange them in fewer rows and spread them out wider, then a large portion of the image will be wasted space and the faces will be smaller.

[themirage]

Well I think they have covered the lighting issues, my suggestion would be to take a minimum of 5-6 photos of this group before they scatter. You will always have closed eyes, turned heads, etc. Taking 5-6, or more if possible, will give you a better change of a good shot, plus more to work with if you have to photoshop a couple heads and eyes from another photo.

[themirage]

I also did a group of about 35 with two AB400s so you should be fine. IMHO

[r.morales]

Definitely RAW . What lights are there now ? Windows ? Time of day ?
Just me - but for a wedding I used a cpl 2 days before to see if glares , flares and/or reflections showed up .
Rotate CPL and if you see a difference - plan accordingly .

[RPCrowe]

Here are a series of thoughts. I have not shot a group for years and I am trying to recall everything I did.

Your first problem is how to get the 50 people assembled in a group for the photo.

Obviously a single row of subjects will stretch from here to eternity.

Multiple rows can be a problem because the front row is closer to the lens than the rear row and will loom larger.

Additionally multiple rows can be difficult because you need the back rows elevated to prevent the front rows from blocking them.

Some solutions are:

1. It is great to have an elevated platform, such as a stage, on which to pose the rear one or two rows.

2. It is even nicer to have a staggered elevated platform, such as a wide staircase, on which you can pose several rows with each successive row bring higher than the row in front.

3. Another solution is to have the back row standing, the middle row seated on a bench or series of chairs and the front row kneeling. Whether you want to use the kneeling row depends upon whom you are shooting and if they would regard kneeling for a photo as demeaning. It is easier for men - especially younger men - to be in the kneeling row.

One way to reduce the amount of space required by a standing row of persons is not to have then stand so their shoulders are at right angles to the lens. Rather, have the center person stand with shoulders at right angles and the persons in the row on either side of the center person standing at an angle (45 degrees or so). This considerably reduces the length of any row.

Another problem is the distortion caused by some of the group being considerably closer to the camera than others. This is a double problem:

1. Front row being closer to camera than rear row

2. Subjects in center of rows being closer to the camera than those on the edges of the rows.

The natural distortion is exaggerated when you use wide angle lenses to shoot the group. If possible, use a longer focal length. Ideally, 50mm of more would be ideal but, this requires a considerable distance from camera to subjects. Anyway, I would not want to shoot at a much wider focal length than 35mm on a full frame camera.

There are two other ways to reduce the distortion caused by uneven camera to subject distance.

1. Shoot from a high angle. This tends to equalize the camera-subject distance for the front to rear rows. I don't like extreme high angles when all you can really see of the subjects is their faces.

2. Arrange your rows in a slightly concave configuration. This somewhat equalizes the camera-subject distance between the center-most and end-most persons in the group.

A ladder is a great help in shooting groups. If you have a tall enough ladder, it is often handy to attach a tripod head to the top step of the ladder. Tripod heads can usually be attached using 3/8" or 1/4" bolts.

Using tripod head mounted camera/lens, you can frame your group. Once the group is framed, you no longer need to view the group through the viewfinder. You can watch the group and ensure that there are no problems such as persons looking away, eyes closed or even some joker making finger horns behind another persons head. Using a cable release makes this even easier.

Lighting:

With the great high ISO capability of the 5D, there is no reason why you cannot shoot at ISO 400 and still get fine results. This will get you an extra stop in exposure.

As with the distortion caused by some subjects being closer to the camera than others, there may be exposure problems for the same reason.

Lighting from a high angle will tend to equalize the camera-subject distance between the various rows .

You don't need creative lighting. What you need is a broad area of even lighting. You may be better off if you do away with modifiers and shoot direct flash. This should also give you a couple of stops extra. Bouncing off the ceiling would not be efficient since the wood would not reflect enough light and that light reflected would be colored.

Additionally, it always looks better in a formal portrait if the persons in each individual row has his/her hands the same way. As an example - the seated row may have their hands clasped in their laps. I used to like the persons to the camera right having their left hands clasped over their right hands with the persons camera left having right hands over left. The same goes for the standing row or rows.

It is almost essential to have ONE assistant helping you pose the persons and to ensure that there are no problems with the poses. This person should be aware of how you plan to pose the group The assistant should also help in making sure that there are not any problems such as eyes closed and finger horns.

By the way, you do need to plan in advance. Additionally looking over the shooting area and possibly using a flash meter to balance out exposure might also be a big help.

Finally:
Be prepared to shoot fairly quickly - folks get edgy when held in a pose. Communicate with the subjects but, don't be bossy. Communication skills are extremely important when working with groups.

[Curtis N]

RPCrow's write-up is the most comprehensive post on this subject I've seen on POTN so far. In reality it's more like herding cattle than posing models.

The only thing I would add is that direct flash, even with a bracket, can create redeye in a dark environment if you're 40 feet away.

As for the buttheads trying to be cute, there's one in every crowd, sometimes two. They're easier to fix with Photoshop than behavior modification.

[Mr. Clean]

Patience is a virtue my friend....give it time...they will come.



Ain't that the truth. TONS of info in here now!

I'm assuming there would also be some benefit in shooting this with a prime or even a 50mm macro for good edge sharpness?

[RGolfJ]

Now those are the kinds of answers I was looking for. I already did some test shots with a full row of chairs, but only one person. From where I can stand, it looks like I am going to have to shoot around 40mm on the 5D. Did not consider the redeye from the on camera stofen flash. Think I will just go with the two AB800s and shoot for f8 and crank ISO a little higher if I need it.

[RGolfJ]

By the way....I'm thinking 4 rows. One bent knee row, one seated, one standing, and one standing on chairs.

[r.morales]

You can also do panoramic type and stitch together .
It's easier to turn camera sideways , pan left to right .
This turns a 5x7 into a 7x5 more top and bottom to crop , but less left to right over lap .
If you can practice first with the panoramic a bunch .

[RPCrowe]

I have never been bothered with redeye when I did not have my flash right on the camera. I assumed that with two AB800 units, you would be using them on stands. It would be nice to have the stands high enough so that the units would be at least level with the camera.

Using a flash meter, you could ensure that the lighting is fairly even - throughout the active area in which the people will be posed.

Without a flash meter, you could enlist the aid of an assistant and place that assistant in various portions of the active area and shoot (using manual - of course) then view the image and adjust the lights, shoot and adjust the lights, shoot and adjust the lights etc.

This would be a long and tedious process but you could if you deem it worth while end up with an overall good exposure.

By the way - shoot quite a few exposures for insurance sake. Additionally, if you are good at Photoshop, you can mix and match the subjects so everyone looks good.

By the way, if this is your class; are you going to be in the picture? If you do want to be included, just set up the gropu leaving a space for yourself, frame the image with the camera on a tripod head, slip into the group and have an assistant trip the shutter.

[howzitboy]

3 rows of 17 people or 4 rows of 13, id go for the 3 rows so you wont worry about light falloff or dof problems.

And more rows you have, more chance someone will hide behind the person in front of them.... make sure u yell "IF U CANT SEE ME, I CANT SEE UUUUUU!!"

[RGolfJ]

Doing 8x10s , 3 rows of 17 would leave a LOT of dead space top and bottom

[RGolfJ]

Here is my test shot.....not sure with the reduction in quality if you will be able to tell. This is with two AB800 and a bracketed 580

[RGolfJ]

I said cedar....that might be pine......but to me the lighting looks somewhat even. What do you all think?

[Curtis N]

Looks pretty even.
I would suggest four rows as follows:
Short men knealing
Tall women sitting
Short women standing
Tall men standing

[SkipD]

First of all, the ONLY way to be sure your lighting is even is to measure it. When I set up for a group shot, I will pop the flash setup from all around the area the group will be posing in while measuring the light with an incident light meter at each location. Then I will move the lighting around to get the most even lighting possible.

Move the group away from the wall if you can, and raise the lights some more. That way, shadows will be out of sight behind the last row of people. Also, by raising the lights (I used my lights about 12 feet off the floor), I think you will have a better chance of having even lighting on all the people.

Make sure you work from an elevated position. That will make getting the composition to be attractive a lot easier.

[RGolfJ]

Do not have a light meter.......Lights will be about 10-12 ft in air.......will be standing on chair if ladder is not available.

[howzitboy]

Looks pretty even.
I would suggest four rows as follows:
Short men knealing
Tall women sitting
Short women standing
Tall men standing

i always have girls with short skirts kneeling in front *wink*

[rgs]

A big part of my business is class reunions. My groups sometimes have 200 and more people in them. The only time I ever use on camera flash is in an emergency. I think all on camera flashes have to focused a beam to light a large group well.

I use a Pentax 67 (usually with a 55mm lens) and a Novatron 400 W/S pack with two flash heads. These heads have a much broader coverage than on camera flashes. The film is Fuji NPH (ISO 400). Faster film is cheaper than more flash power!

I feather the heads up and out to even out the light. Before I ever bring the class in, I meter several different areas of the set with a flash meter. If the readings vary by more than one stop, I feather the lights more. The result is a very even light that flatters everyone.

Hope that helps

RGS
www.myrsphoto.com

[RGolfJ]

Here is my result....not perfect.....but those that have seen it are happy with it. could not go any further back so shot pretty wide. Would have been nice to create one more row so the group would not have been so wide

[RGolfJ]

Boy....looks very distorted saved at that resolution....but atleast you can get some idea on the lighting

[Curtis N]

Lighting looks very good from front to back, which is the hardest part.
The shadows seem to indicate your lights were out on either side. It would probably be better to pull them in closer to the center on either side of the camera. You have some shadows on parts of faces in the fourth row, but these are nit-picks that most people won't notice.

What I can't tell here is how many eyes are open. Sometimes you need to take several shots and swap some heads to get open eyes on everyone.

[RGolfJ]

took six shots....all eyes were open in most......expressions are good and all eyes open in this one....only one effected by shadows was bald guy in fourth row behind tall lady in black.
In hindsight, I should have moved tall lady. The 4th row was at last minute....was expecting about 45....ended up being 58