Technology isn't always good for you.

[KennyG]

The other day I was stood alongside another motorsport photographer who had a shiny new MK-II. For the previous year he had shot with a 10D and used to take care with his shots, making sure he had the cars nicely framed and timed his shots to get action shuch as wheel lifts over kerbs.

Now, it is spray and pray and he just points at the cars as they approach a turn, presses the shutter and takes a sequence. No thought of what he is doing, just hoping that one of the frames will catch the action. The sniper's skill has been replaced by a shotgun with spread-shot.

I don't blame the MK-II as I have had the same facility with my MK-I for a long time, but I prefer single shot and the challenge of using my skill as a photographer. Maybe I am getting cynical in my old age, but I still appreciate a photographer's handywork, whatever he takes pictures of, artistic or action. Are we moving into an era where the photographer is nothing more than something to carry and point the camera?

[nosquare2003]

So what is the advantage of the 1D / 1D MKII 8) ?

But I seldom use the continous mode myself even in sports. I don't why but I like one-shot mode more.

[Steveo31]

I hope not everyone uses spray and pray. I think 8fps, but used in a quick, 3 or 4 frame burst is best.

[Cadwell]

Ummm OK.

If you Mark II boys are all going to start "spray and pray" tactics can you let me know please? 'Cos if you are I'm gonna buy some shares in CF card manufacturers. :P :lol:

[sdommin]

I guess the results are what really matters. Are his pictures better now?

[CoolToolGuy]

Kenny, I have mentioned the timing issue to folks who lament that the Drebel (for instance) "can't" be used for sports and action. I learned on a film SLR at a time when they were manual wind, and motor drives were way out of most folks' budget. Timing still is a valuable skill to learn.

Granted, 8.5 FPS gives the 'spray and pray' folks more of a chance, but timing and visualization (a la your Legends shots) are marks of a good photographer.

Otherwise you could just set up an unmanned camera with a remote and just come back at the end of the day and collect the equipment and the CF card. :wink:


Are you going to the British GP?

Have Fun,

[timmyquest]

I have mentioned the timing issue to folks who lament that the Drebel (for instance) "can't" be used for sports and action.

Really?! Coulda fooled me.

http://www.antiwall.com/football2004/1.jpg

The only camera i've ever really owned other then my Drebel was an AE-1 Program...so to me the rebel is very fast.

The truth still remains,and i suspect it will for quiet some time that the camera is only a tool, the largest thing that matters is who's operating the tool. A good example is RFMsports, he is the single largest reason i went digital with shots from his 10D. He has the MKII now and i think i speak for everyone when i say that his shots have improved. It is a mixture of the better focusing and the better "ROF" however there is a reason he has been published...cover none the less, and most of us have not. There is a reason not everyone with an MKII is accepted to sportsshooter.com. It's called tallent, and it is not something that can be bought.

I always get a kick out of people when the look at a photo and ask "WOW, thats great! what settings!?"

Thats my 2 cents...

[Big_B]

I always get a kick out of people when the look at a photo and ask "WOW, thats great! what settings!?"


Not sure what you mean TQ. Are you saying that people shouldn't ask about the settings, or are you saying that you are really pleased when they do? :?

[KennyG]

I hope not everyone uses spray and pray. I think 8fps, but used in a quick, 3 or 4 frame burst is best.

How ever many sequential shots there are, three, four, five, does not get away from the fact that this person had gone from concentrating on getting the right shot to hitting burst mode hoping they would get it.

As I said, I am not knocking the MK-I or MK-II, but more commenting on how, in my observation, it had changed someone who I admired as a working photographer into no more than a human version of a tripod.

Is their work any better? Goodness knows, they have had nothing published from the MK-II yet. Even if they got some perfect shots you could argue that firing off enough will improve the law of averages and at some point you are bound to hit the jackpot.

I am sure people said similar things back in my film days when along came AF then AI Focus, where previously you had to be really on the ball with the focus ring. Maybe it is the way things are going for the action photographer and skill isn't going to be necessary any more, just the right equipment.

I use my skill as an ex racing driver to read a race and car dynamics to get the sort of shot I want. I hope Canon don't build in that level of AI or I will be out of a job.

[timmyquest]

I always get a kick out of people when the look at a photo and ask "WOW, thats great! what settings!?"


Not sure what you mean TQ. Are you saying that people shouldn't ask about the settings, or are you saying that you are really pleased when they do? :?

I'm saying that all to often people have a norrow mind and assume that a great photograph is all about "settings", thats all.

[Big_B]

I always get a kick out of people when the look at a photo and ask "WOW, thats great! what settings!?"


Not sure what you mean TQ. Are you saying that people shouldn't ask about the settings, or are you saying that you are really pleased when they do? :?

I'm saying that all to often people have a norrow mind and assume that a great photograph is all about "settings", thats all.

I know what you mean, and to some extent I agree with you. However I feel the need to speak up for the people that are interested in camera settings (if only because I'm one of them :D ).

When I see a good picture my first thought is 'great photo' - then I go on to think 'how can I do that?'. I can see how you have composed the picture and so there is no need to ask you about that. However what I cannot see is the background stuff such as camera settings, which may be crucial to acheiving the desired effect (your fireworks pics are a good example).

BB

[defordphoto]

The other day I was stood alongside another motorsport photographer who had a shiny new MK-II. For the previous year he had shot with a 10D and used to take care with his shots, making sure he had the cars nicely framed and timed his shots to get action shuch as wheel lifts over kerbs.

If it's any comfort, I have not changed my shooting style at all since getting the MKII, except for when an action-moment happens. Then you use the advantage of a camera such as the MKII or 1D that has super-fast FPS capabilities and not only will you get the moment, but the entire sequence like my boat crash sequence at a recent Jet Sprint race.

See: http://racefamily.racinglines.com/Galleries/2004/JetSprints/Richland0605/WildRide/index.htm

To spray and pray is just simply weak photographic skills I could not agree more, but to have this capability has allowed me to capture moments the 10D could not even come close to. In the sequence above the 10D would have got maybe 5 shots off. The MKII got 25.

Other than that, my style has not changed. In fact, many times I have the camera in the slow FPS mode as I am still getting used to the speed of this thing and if it's on fast (H) FPS then I get many duplicate shots from the camera being faster than my shutter-finger!

[KennyG]

Jim, I think you come from the same 'school' as me and as you know I have always admired your work. My MK-I didn't change my style either other than I appreciated the very fast buffer. It did allow me to get shots that were just not possible with the 10D, or if I had managed to get one, it would have been by luck not judgement. It is knowing the right place and time to use the facilities IMHO.

The worst I saw was at a recent hillclimb where the photographer, who was a MK-II 'graduate' from a 10D, took bursts of every car at the slowest corner of the circuit. I could have done a water color of the car, never mind a good sharp interesting shot in the time period. I think it was a case of - because the facility was there, use it.

What also happens is that 'they' spend time chimping to dump the unwanted shots and miss other action while we boring one-shot types are always eye to the camera.

One of the best photographers I know on the circuits, who has a lot of work published (and I mean a lot), uses a D30 and a 300 2.8 IS. Nothing else, that is the total kit list, plus of course a lot of talent.

[defordphoto]

Yeah Ken...The old days of 35mm film and all manual cameras. We made sure we got the shot. Nowadays "they" just shoot a blast and pick one shot out of 40.

It's just so much more satisfying our way.

[robertwgross]

Nowadays "they" just shoot a blast and pick one shot out of 40.

So, what happens to the other 39 shots? Do they just fall into the giant bit bucket?

---Bob Gross---

[defordphoto]

Nowadays "they" just shoot a blast and pick one shot out of 40.

So, what happens to the other 39 shots? Do they just fall into the giant bit bucket?

---Bob Gross---

In most cases yeah, that'd be my guess. Sometimes I'll shoot 2-4 frame bursts when there's a moment of action. I will use all the tools I can in an attempt to get The Shot. It's silly not to.

One out of that sequence makes the cut, the others don't and go bye-bye. Not sure what the Uzi-shooters do with their massive excess.

[Volatile]

I always get a kick out of people when the look at a photo and ask "WOW, thats great! what settings!?"


Not sure what you mean TQ. Are you saying that people shouldn't ask about the settings, or are you saying that you are really pleased when they do? :?

I'm saying that all to often people have a norrow mind and assume that a great photograph is all about "settings", thats all.

I would be happy to be asked "what settings?", since normally, when people see my camera, they ask "Is that digital?", and then follow-up with "How many megapixels?" After that, it's either a grunt of acknowledgment or a comment like "Wow, you must take good pictures."

[defordphoto]

I would be happy to be asked "what settings?", since normally, when people see my camera, they ask "Is that digital?", and then follow-up with "How many megapixels?" After that, it's either a grunt of acknowledgment or a comment like "Wow, you must take good pictures."

Usually 'they' say: "Wow, I bet that camera takes really good pictures." :roll:

[CyberDyneSystems]

I use the MkII the same as I used the 10D... I keep it in 3 FPS burst.. but I really only use as a single shot ... because as it turns out (and it was Kenny who I learned this from) with the 1D bodies you can tap the shutter more than three fps if you need to.. but all of those three or more frames will be when you want them.


So far the ONLY time I used "spray and pray" was after about 5 hours of NOT being able to get the shot of an Osprey actually hitting the water in a dive...

Unfortunately.. I still couldn't get that shot even on "full auto" 8.5 fps.. my trouble wasn't in shutter timing it was in keeping a 500mm lens on a bird diving at 60mph...

[Belmondo]

Usually 'they' say: "Wow, I bet that camera takes really good pictures." :roll:

In my case they'd be right. :oops: :wink:

[Big_B]

I would be happy to be asked "what settings?", since normally, when people see my camera, they ask "Is that digital?", and then follow-up with "How many megapixels?" After that, it's either a grunt of acknowledgment or a comment like "Wow, you must take good pictures."

Usually 'they' say: "Wow, I bet that camera takes really good pictures." :roll:

Actually I what REALLY anoyes me is when people say 'Wow! You are such a good photographer'. then having seen the camera they say 'oh... I guess its because you've got a nice camera'. As if I couldn't have taken the photo without it :twisted: :evil:

[MarkH]

I would be happy to be asked "what settings?", since normally, when people see my camera, they ask "Is that digital?", and then follow-up with "How many megapixels?" After that, it's either a grunt of acknowledgment or a comment like "Wow, you must take good pictures."

Usually 'they' say: "Wow, I bet that camera takes really good pictures." :roll:

At least WE know better!

Those of us with good cameras (any D-SLR) will look at your pictures and think "wow". We have cameras that can in theory take the same pictures and yet in practise they usually don't. :? :(

Obviously the camera makes a difference and is important, same with the lens. But much more important is the photographer!

I have seen suggestions of settings that I have trouble using, like a slow shutter speed on a moving car to blur the background. I need to pan much more smoothly to get a sharp car at slow shutter speeds! I can keep the car in the frame though, so practise has helped to improve my skill. :)

I DO get more keepers now with my 10D then what I had with my old Nikon CP950. But without me my 10D can't even get itself out of the bag, so I guess the photographer is still needed for the camera to work.

With a better camera and better lenses I could get better photos, but with a better photographer my 10D could get better photos too! I suspect a better photographer could get more good shots with my 10D than I could get with his 1D MkII. I'll just have to do the best that I can with the equipment and skill that I have. :wink:

[CoolToolGuy]

I have mentioned the timing issue to folks who lament that the Drebel (for instance) "can't" be used for sports and action.

Really?! Coulda fooled me.

http://www.antiwall.com/football2004/1.jpg



Timmy, thanks for illustrating my point. That's a great shot! 8)

Have Fun,

[blackviolet]

kenny,

i think the photo series you posted a few months ago of the crash is a great example of experience vs. technology. the technology enabled you to take the shots, but it was framed almost perfectly. what was most impressive was that they were taken in single shot mode.

personally i rely on bursts of no more than 4 or 5 - unless one of my kids is carrying the ball and making a great run :wink: when i played with a mkii in the shop, i was amazed at the speed - almost scary!!! but it's just not something i *have* have right now (that may change in a few months though...)

[Aylwin]

...they ask "Is that digital?", and then follow-up with "How many megapixels?" After that, it's either a grunt of acknowledgment or a comment like "Wow, you must take good pictures."

If only I had a penny for everytime I've been asked those exact same questions. :lol:

When I first got the 10D people seemed to be more impressed with the pixels rather than the fact that it was an SLR. Nowadays, the "more knowledgeable" ones aren't so impressed because they've already heard of 8 megapixel cameras like the Nikon 5800.

[Lamplight]

I recently got to attempt some action shots with my DRebel for the first time and I actually found it easier to take only one shot at a time. When I tried shooting in "bursts" all of the shots sucked. :lol:

[dn7elson]

I recently got to attempt some action shots with my DRebel for the first time and I actually found it easier to take only one shot at a time.

I came from a manual wind, manual focus 35mm camera. I still find myself shooting most multiple shots as separate shots vs. an automatic series. Might I miss something in between, sure, but then again, I don't get to the end of my buffer and miss those opportunities often. And I do find myself thinking each shot vs. "just letting it go". :D