Would You Do This?

[Steve Parr]

I posted this in the "Business" section, but thought it was also appropriate here. I'm not sure what to do:

Would you do this and, if so, what would you charge?

A friend of mine e-mailed me concerning a gig for next weekend. The Temptations and The Four Tops are performing in San Diego. The person who wants to hire me produces compilation CD's and DVD's of music that's largely of interest to baby boomers.

Anyway, I got this e-mail from my friend, on the behalf of the client:

On Thurs, Sept 6, the Temps are playing Humphrey's on a bill with the Four Tops, and my friend and one of his cohorts are gonna present the sole remaining original Temp, Otis Williams, with the platinum DVD plaque near the end of their show, when they do their introductions. Amy and I are helping to coordinate that, and working with media, etc. to get some pub. David mentioned that in addition to having his own 2-man camera crew there to video the presentation for his archives, he'd like a still photog to shoot the presentation.

The only stipulation he made is that he wants to own the negatives---or the disc if it's shot in digital---so he can use the images any way he wants in the future. If you were to shoot this, you'd be welcome to post images in your website and use them in a portfolio, etc., but he wants unlimited rights to use them for his own purposes

I don't make a living with my camera. I do, however, want to know that, if I do this, I'm fairly compensated. The problem is that I don't know what to charge. My clients are bands that normally can only afford a few hundred dollars for photos they're going to put on their website. The client in this case is someone who wants to be able to use the images on CD and DVD covers that sell in the millions.

The first number that popped into my head was $2,500.00. My immediate second thought was that might be too low.

So, my questions are these: Would you do the shoot with the stated stipulations and, if so, what would you charge the client?

Thanks for any and all input...

[cadams]

I would definitely do it. When someone will pay me for any hobby I have that is a no brainer. Anyway the money part is all up to you. $2500 seems resonable to me but that is your call in the end.

[glowie]

Do it! $2,500 + unlimited booze.

[Steve Parr]

Do it! $2,500 + unlimited booze.

Hehehe... I never drink when I shoot. Now, after I put the gear back in the bag, well...

[ducko]

I don't know, I would certainly do it but I am starting to get a bit greedy here just thinking about the possibilities. I don't know if you could swing it but maybe think about how you can get royalties. Like if they use a picture of yours on a CD cover, you could get paid 2 cents for each CD that gets sold. That might be why the guy wants to buy the photos outright though, to avoid this. Just a thought.

[zippy25]

Yes, I would do this. $2500.00 seems fair. Is there a way, that if the client owns the negatives, that you can get a royalty for every album sold. MAybe that is unrealistic, but if it sells in the millions, and a few pennies worth per sale, that could add up. It seems like it would be worth exploring...But to answer your question, yes I would do this! Good luck with your negotiations!!

[zippy25]

I don't know, I would certainly do it but I am starting to get a bit greedy here just thinking about the possibilities. I don't know if you could swing it but maybe think about how you can get royalties. Like if they use a picture of yours on a CD cover, you could get paid 2 cents for each CD that gets sold. That might be why the guy wants to buy the photos outright though, to avoid this. Just a thought.
Looks like we were thinking along the same lines here...;)

[blackshadow]

It might be worth your while putting a clause in stating that ownership/copyright reverts to you upon the death of Otis Williams. Let's face it he is hardly contemporary or newsworthy at present but when he falls off this mortal coil the photos will become newsworthy and saleable.

[zippy25]

It might be worth your while putting a clause in stating that ownership/copyright reverts to you upon the death of Otis Williams. Let's face it he is hardly contemporary or newsworthy at present but when he falls off this mortal coil the photos will become newsworthy and saleable.
That is not a bad idea....

[Rubi Jane]

I'd do it! Royalties would be nice, Richard's idea is also very valid.

The email you received seems a little unclear. They say they want to own the negatives/digital files but then they say they want unlimited rights to use. You need to clarify that. Perhaps they are OK with you maintaining copyright and issuing them unlimited usage rights. They do say you can use them on your web, portfolio, etc. so they maybe are only looking for the ability to use the image ongoing without any future licensing hassles.

Let us know how it works out.

[Steve Parr]

They do say you can use them on your web, portfolio, etc. so they maybe are only looking for the ability to use the image ongoing without any future licensing hassles.

That's how it appears to me, as well.

This is all great input, folks; keep it coming!

If I do decide to do this, I would have one stipulation of my own, that being that the promoter could not resell any images I provide to him, and that they would be solely for his use.

Sound fair?

[zippy25]

If I do decide to do this, I would have one stipulation of my own, that being that the promoter could not resell any images I provide to him, and that they would be solely for his use.

Sound fair?
Sounds fair, but how would you regulate that?

[Steve Parr]

Sounds fair, but how would you regulate that?

Hehehehe... The same way he would regulate whether or not I sold the images elsewhere. I think that, at some popint, some degree of "gentleman's agreement" needs to come into play, in that each party trusts that the other will adhere to the terms of the contract...

[skifurthur]

While $2,500 US seems like a fair price, I think it might be a bit high at the stage of career they are in. I think it's good to banter this one about for a few days.

I would make sure that you make it clear in your contract that you state that you do not hold a model release and need to be held harmless for how he might use the images. I am pretty sure that I know Otis' lawyer and she will rip anyone up that violates his copyright...and does so with almost a maniacal glee. That being said, if I was an artist, I would hire her in a second. Make sure that doesn't happen to you.

[Grey56]

So there's a company that makes money selling CDs and DVDs of oldies music? And they want you to shoot some images for them? They'll be using the images to promote their own company, not the Temptations?

I shot the Temptations last year and didn't charge nearly as much as you're saying you will. Not that they won't pay up, but to me that seems like a lot.

Of course, no one was presented with anything, it was just a concert and a meet-and-greet type thing. But still.

If this company thrives on promoting bands merely by promoting them, sounds to me like they'll pay. I can't help but wonder if the bands ever see any of this?

What did I miss? I feel confused. I am SO not a business-minded person. Sorry.

[Steve Parr]

So there's a company that makes money selling CDs and DVDs of oldies music? And they want you to shoot some images for them? They'll be using the images to promote their own company, not the Temptations?

I shot the Temptations last year and didn't charge nearly as much as you're saying you will. Not that they won't pay up, but to me that seems like a lot.

The "client" wouldn't be The Temptations, per se, but the person who owns the company that produces the CD's and DVD's...

[René Damkot]

The only stipulation he made is that he wants to own the negatives---or the disc if it's shot in digital---so he can use the images any way he wants in the future. If you were to shoot this, you'd be welcome to post images in your website and use them in a portfolio, etc., but he wants unlimited rights to use them for his own purposes

I'ld *not* give away negatives. (Or CR2 files for that matter)
He'ld be welome to a copy of the (processed, high res) images.
I would be willing to give a licence for unlimited use (Which would be pricey I'ld guess...), but retain the copyright.

[PhotosGuy]

Have you considered giving them just a choice of maybe a dozen images for their exclusive use?

[narlus]

did the label guy float a buy-out number yet? i'm thinking his number might be a bit far off from yours (2500).

i probably don't have a good grasp on the state of the oldies market, but millions of copies seems to be stretching it. those types of sales figures would easily be in the billboard top 25.

[thelightofsound]

as mentioned, you need to clarify whether they want ownership of the images (including cr2 files), or if they want unlimited rights. two completely different grant of rights with two completely different price tags. it is also hard to price a job without knowing for what the images will be used. normally publicity images are less expensive than commercial images. that needs to be defined as well. if they can not tell you then you have to assume the high end.
I have found this book very helpful in answering some of these questions (http://www.amazon.com/Pricing-Photography-Complete-Assignment-Prices/dp/1581152078/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-4834224-4393631?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188405899&sr=8-1)

you definitely want this job. that is the struggle of the biz, in that you want fair compensation, but do not want to price yourself out of the gig. i would start with getting specific answers to some of these questions.

[zacker]

well on the royalties, do pro photogs even get royalties off photographs? I have never even thought of that before...

Im shooting a very small party tomorrow and giving the guy all the raw files... he just wants to make a collage and print some stuff out for his mom and dad.. i dont know these people and will never see them again and its a quick buck in my wallet, i dont even have to PP them, just go home, dump em to DVD and mail it to him. I know we *arent* supposed to do this but this is what he wanted and i need the $$ and either i do it or dont but someone will so it might as well be me..Besides, i have no use for pics of gramma and grampa and the kids..lol

[DwightMcCann]

I just shot these two groups. They both do a good show. I got some great images that are in my pipeline and will be posted here when I get time, sigh. I think you should send them to me. I'd only charge $3500 and a room comp. I'd pay you $1000 to assist me. Then I'd give 'em the whole thing including copyright and consider it a 'work for hire'. I have a HUGE catalog of much more valuable images including the ones I already have of these two groups for which I hold Copyright. How much copyrighted stuff one the same folks does a body need?

On the slightly more serious side, I doubt they're gonna go for that much money. They should be able to hire any of 50 guys for 1/2 that. I wouldn't do it for less than your $2500 with those conditions ... and you do need a paper says that they will indemnify you and hold you harmless for their uses. Heck, I wouldn't do it for less than $3500, my day rate with an assistant, but they didn't ask me.

[Road2Show]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems like this is being turned into something it's not. The way I read it, they are not asking for performance images, they simply want someone to shoot the award presentation. A simple grip and grin shot.

"...he'd like a still photog to shoot the presentation."

That being the case, I think $2500 is way out of line and I'd be real surprised if you got that. They could find 100 students and wanna-be pros to come shoot it for 10% or less of that figure. (I know this is a whole other conversation, so please don't drift off-topic)

A couple hours travel/prep time, 5 minutes shooting, a few minutes post. Done.

[Steve Parr]

Some excellent points being brought up here; ones that I didn't think of. Honestly, most of my dealings are on a far less complicated basis than this.

I'm going to e-mail some questions and see what the responses are.

I'll keep you all posted, and thanks again.

Oh, and Dwight? You can come down, be my assistant, and I'll buy you dinner!

[DwightMcCann]

Oh, and Dwight? You can come down, be my assistant, and I'll buy you dinner!
If I'm available that day I'll be there! I just pre-ordered a 1DsMIII and need the money. ;)

[johnstoy]

I'd itemize the $2500... Show them what they'll get for the money...

I've gotten royalties for some photography work in the past... The contract was originally for commissions from sales... and the "royalties" were easier to deal with...

These important images certainly shouldn't take just a "few minutes" in Post Processing... I spend at least 30 minutes and up to an hour per quality capture... Try it several different ways for best presentation...

I think you need more information to make a definite, positive decision on this one... It wouldn't hurt to ask them for some more details...

[Road2Show]

I'd itemize the $2500... Show them what they'll get for the money...

I've gotten royalties for some photography work in the past... The contract was originally for commissions from sales... and the "royalties" were easier to deal with...

These important images certainly shouldn't take just a "few minutes" in Post Processing... I spend at least 30 minutes and up to an hour per quality capture... Try it several different ways for best presentation...

I think you need more information to make a definite, positive decision on this one... It wouldn't hurt to ask them for some more details...

I want to clarify one thing based on this reply. My comment about a "few minutes" in post is geared towards what I think is being asked for. Pictures of the award presentation. Common, grip and grin shots. If this is shot correctly, with good exposure and w/b I can't image spending 30 minutes or more per image to prep.

[Steve Parr]

I think you need more information to make a definite, positive decision on this one... It wouldn't hurt to ask them for some more details...

I've e-mailed them for exactly that. I offered three different prices, depending on what they want shots of, what they want to use them for, and for how long. If they want to own the copyright, though, it won't come cheap. I just don't like doing that, and think that the compensation should reflect that...

[Steve Parr]

If I'm available that day I'll be there! I just pre-ordered a 1DsMIII and need the money. ;)

Hey, I ain't talkin' no "fancy" dinner here.

WE GOIN' TO SIZZLER!!!

[johnstoy]

Great progress... lets see what happens...

If Dwight could make it, a second shooter would be very impressive... More cameras, lenses...they'd have no choice but to bow to your requests...

[Suicidenote]

Interesting topic, hope you post the outcome here.

[Steve Parr]

Interesting topic, hope you post the outcome here.

I absolutely will...

[narlus]

he'd like a still photog to shoot the presentation.

The first number that popped into my head was $2,500.00. My immediate second thought was that might be too low.

if all you are doing is shooting a scene where guy(s) are getting handed something and smiling, and you are asking $2500+ for it, i personally think the buyer will tell you to pound sand and find someone else to do it at a fraction of that price.

the 'all rights conferred' bit would give me pause, but still i think it's a no-brainer to lower your price, if you are interested in this deal.

[Gamut]

I think that's totally reasonable. It's a rarity in the commercial art business to create a piece of art and continue to hold onto the usage rights. They're basically paying you for your services, the shots belong to them. It would be different if you were selling the shots through a gallery, which you may be able to negotiate that separately. But residuals are a little much. You don't want to lose the job to the next guy in line by appearing greedy.

Good luck!

[kmb]

I'll just say that $2500 seems to be in the ballpark of what should be asked from that sort of thing.

[sspellman]

Steve-

I would present them with a few different options and let them choose-

1) Copyright Transfer to client - $5000
2) Unrestricted Use License - $2500
3) Limited Use License(no product use or assignment to 3rd parties) - $800

Keep us posted-
Scott

[Steve Parr]

Steve-

I would present them with a few different options and let them choose-

1) Copyright Transfer to client - $5000
2) Unrestricted Use License - $2500
3) Limited Use License(no product use or assignment to 3rd parties) - $800

Keep us posted-
Scott

That's what I did, only my prices were somewhat different:

1) $3,000
2) $1,500
3) $850

I haven't heard back.

To be completely honest, if they say "no", that's cool with me. There are other significantly hot irons in the fire...

[johnstoy]

Lookin' good, man...

[Road2Show]

Wow...I must be missing something here.
Ok, it's not my intent to be argumentative here, not even close. At this point I want to learn. If this is truly the market value of a grip and grin award shot, I need to reset what I charge. The last thing I want to do is come in as the "cheap guy" significantly under market. Maybe I've spent too much time in the wrong markets. I'm also in So Cal, but an obviously different set of customers.

When I look at something like this, I try to look at the overall value of the work. In a situation like this, I'm just not seeing a huge commercial licensing potential. (again, maybe my ignorance has me blinded) These things would usually go to the presenter, the presentee, maybe some press releases, maybe a web site shot. Not something I would think anyone would likely purchase for other commercial applications.

Do I have the right impression as to what the job was/is?

I an certainly see charging with a tiered structure...this is just higher than what I would of thought for a quick job.

I really do want to better understand this. I want to make sure I'm charging the right levels, and I want to make sure it's consistent with industry...not cutting it. I've been doing this off and on since first being published for $25 in 1979. I've been trying to build towards converting this off/on part time gig into something more full-time. Pricing has been one of the areas I really struggle.

Thanks! By all means, take this to PM if you like. I don't mean to hijack the thread.

Mike

[Steve Parr]

Thanks! By all means, take this to PM if you like. I don't mean to hijack the thread.

Mike

No hijack at all, Mike.

I've no experience with this kind of thing, which is why I posted here. Some here think it's reasonable, some think it's unreasonable.

I'm simply erring on the side of caution...

:lol:

[Lefty Ray]

You will never get a royalty check, just a flat fee so that option is out.

[DwightMcCann]

You will never get a royalty check, just a flat fee so that option is out.

Finally, the voice of experience! Hey, Lefty, maybe you and I could handle this for Steve and just give a $5 finder's fee? ;)

[Lefty Ray]

would that cover the parking fee? How about a hotdog?

[DwightMcCann]

would that cover the parking fee? How about a hotdog? Hey, we don't want to spoil him! :rolleyes:

[Steve Parr]

would that cover the parking fee? How about a hotdog?

Hey, a guy's gotta' eat, am I right?

[Steve Parr]

Well, here's the deal:

They want me to shoot the award presentation and one song. The client will get rights to do as he wishes with the photos, but I retain those same rights. If I want to sell the photos, I can.

One song, five bills...

[DwightMcCann]

One song, five bills...

That's my rate! You have hit the big time! :lol::lol::lol:

[Lefty Ray]

How much do Dwight and I get for our consulting services?

[DwightMcCann]

How much do Dwight and I get for our consulting services?

Damn right! ;)

[johnstoy]

Did you say 5 bills... as in 5K? Well than knock me over with a feather...

[blackshadow]

Well done Steve - sounds like a perfectly acceptable job!

[johnstoy]

Same here Steve... Good job... run with it...Dwight should visit you on this one...

[DwightMcCann]

Did you say 5 bills... as in 5K? Well than knock me over with a feather...

I believe the expression "bill" is $100 (see http://www.kith.org/logos/words/upper/D.html). If it is $1000 I have some hefty price list shifts to make! :D

[blackshadow]

$500 for an hour or 2 is pretty decent; especially if it gives you a foot in the door for more work in the future.

[johnstoy]

I believe the expression "bill" is $100 (see http://www.kith.org/logos/words/upper/D.html). If it is $1000 I have some hefty price list shifts to make! :D

Yeah, I know... just wishful thinking that it was the "big" bills instead... $500 is decent for one song... I'm not knocking it...might say, I'm just day dreamin'...

EDIT: However, I pretty sure it's "Blow me over with a feather".
But "Knock me over", just sounds so much more dramatic."

[Road2Show]

this is certainly MUCH more in line with what I would think appropriate. I was really scratching my head on this one.

[Steve Parr]

Did you say 5 bills... as in 5K?

I wish!

$500.00...

[narlus]

this is certainly MUCH more in line with what I would think appropriate. I was really scratching my head on this one.


agreed.

good negotiating, though steve - i think it's a fair price, and you get some $$$ out of it rather than hardlining and walking away w/ nothing.

[johnstoy]

I wish!

$500.00...

This could be just the begginning... Keeping an open channel of communication with them, could be more productive in the future too... I know, you'll be adding their info to your "contacts" files...

Your "special shoot" also motivated me to do some additional research... I PM'd you regarding same, with a couple of leads...

[johnstoy]

agreed.

good negotiating, though steve - i think it's a fair price, and you get some $$$ out of it rather than hardlining and walking away w/ nothing.


Hey Tim,

I've got a PM going out to you in just a few...

[Steve Parr]

This could be just the begginning... Keeping an open channel of communication with them, could be more productive in the future too... I know, you'll be adding their info to your "contacts" files...

Your "special shoot" also motivated me to do some additional research... I PM'd you regarding same, with a couple of leads...

I didn't get that PM, John...

[Steve Parr]

agreed.

good negotiating, though steve - i think it's a fair price, and you get some $$$ out of it rather than hardlining and walking away w/ nothing.

There was some miscommunication as to what the client actually wanted, and with what he wanted to be able to do with the photos. After we figured that all out, we agreed to the $500.00 in pretty short order...

[johnstoy]

I didn't get that PM, John...
Sorry, It was an Email with the two books... I'll PM it too, right now...