Question: 580 & 430 Flash Setups

[[AP]Red]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

First off, I would like to say thanks to everyone on this forum... I've been lurking for a while now and have learned quite a bit.

I have a setup right now, trying to follow the "Strobist" movement, with a 580EX, 430EX, 2 x pocketwizards, and my trusty 5D. I have a pocketwizard on the 5D, the other connected to the 580 via sync cable and the 430 being a slave to the 580. I have found that the 580 has to be in ETTL mode to fire the 430, in M mode. I'd like to get the 580 on M mode but it wont trip the 430.

My question to all: Is there a way of having the 580 be the master in M mode rather than in ETTL?

I apologize if this topic has been posted before. If you can link me to it that'd be great!

Aloha

[Lotto]

Set the master 580 to M mode, then turn the "Ratio" to ON. Leave the slave 430 in ETTL mode, you can control both outputs from the 580 that way.

[[AP]Red]

Lotto, thanks.

Im gonna give it a go.

[PacAce]

Set the master 580 to M mode, then turn the "Ratio" to ON. Leave the slave 430 in ETTL mode, you can control both outputs from the 580 that way.

Yes, but the OP should still be able to have the 580EX in M mode and fire the 430EX as a slave in M mode, too. So, the question is, why isn't it working for him?

[AP]Red, was the 430EX in Slave mode when you set it to Manual mode? Not sure if you did it this way or not but you have to press and hold the Mode button to switch the slave into Manual mode.

[George Chew]

Yes, but the OP should still be able to have the 580EX in M mode and fire the 430EX as a slave in M mode, too. So, the question is, why isn't it working for him?

[AP]Red, was the 430EX in Slave mode when you set it to Manual mode? Not sure if you did it this way or not but you have to press and hold the Mode button to switch the slave into Manual mode.
Greetings,
I just took them out and test. I discovered that you can't have it in M mode when being a slave. You can only put the master on M mode. Enjoy...

[PacAce]

Yes, but the OP should still be able to have the 580EX in M mode and fire the 430EX as a slave in M mode, too. So, the question is, why isn't it working for him?

[AP]Red, was the 430EX in Slave mode when you set it to Manual mode? Not sure if you did it this way or not but you have to press and hold the Mode button to switch the slave into Manual mode.

Greetings,
I just took them out and test. I discovered that you can't have it in M mode when being a slave. You can only put the master on M mode. Enjoy...
You might want to reread what I posted earlier. I highlighted the relevant line for you. ;)

[George Chew]

You might want to reread what I posted earlier. I highlighted the relevant line for you. ;)
Greetings,
Thanks for highlighting that. They work in M mode while in slave. Thanks. And in M mode, the master is still able to fire the slave. So it might be the pocket wizard?

[PacAce]

Greetings,
Thanks for highlighting that. They work in M mode while in slave. Thanks. And in M mode, the master is still able to fire the slave. So it might be the pocket wizard?
Or maybe the OP didn't really have the 430EX in Manual Slave mode but instead had it in regular (non-Slave) Manual mode.

[[AP]Red]

Gentlemen,

The 430 was in M mode on the Slave setting. I did some testing last night.

580 in M mode - Master - Ratio on
430 in ETTL mode - Slave

This works great, i can adjust the ratio from the 580, dont have to touch the 430.

Now heres a new problem: Now my 580 wont fire on M mode with the PocketWizard trigger, only when it is the master. If i put it in M mode by itself, no master/slave, it fires. So now i have a good setup but cant fire it. WTF? Does anyone know a workaround?

Aloha

[PacAce]

Red;3859136']Gentlemen,

The 430 was in M mode on the Slave setting. I did some testing last night.

580 in M mode - Master - Ratio on
430 in ETTL mode - Slave

This works great, i can adjust the ratio from the 580, dont have to touch the 430.

Now heres a new problem: Now my 580 wont fire on M mode with the PocketWizard trigger, only when it is the master. If i put it in M mode by itself, no master/slave, it fires. So now i have a good setup but cant fire it. WTF? Does anyone know a workaround?

Aloha
580EX or 580EX II? Are you using a hotshoe adapter or plugged directly into the PC terminal of the flash (if 580EX II)?

[canonpink]

Gentlemen,

I have worked through all this and this is why the wireless ETTL module ST-E2 was created. In order for the 580 to work as a master for any of the modes properly (i.e. ETTLII, manual, auto (for the 580II)), it must receive information from the camera. This simply is the way it is.

I suggest since you are going the strobist route, which is all manual flash anyway, you should get a PC cord, attach to your camera an to an adapter to your 580 (or 430), then keep the PW on your 5D and use the other PW to fire the 580 (or 430).

Yes, if you trigger the 580 with a PW and put your 430 in slave mode, then you will see flashes, but they are not at the strength you set them. The canon system is designed to work via the master/slave modes from the camera; that is why the ST-E2 (even with its limitations), is a good alternative to PWs because it allows you to use the master/slave functions for multiple flash setups the way Canon intended.

If y'all find a way to work out the OP's issue, I will be highly interested. With the three flashes I have and the 3 PWs, I use a PC cord in my 5D to one flash, a PW on the camera, then a PW on each of the other two flashes.

Not sure if this helps, but I did discover this the hard way.

CP

[Lotto]

Ooops, I am a slow typer. Delete.

[[AP]Red]

PacAce, I have a 580EX II, and it is direct to the PC terminal from the PocketWizard.

CanonPink, This does help, thanks. I'm gonna need a longer PC cord and a hotshoe adapter for my 430EX to follow your suggestion, which is cheaper than buying another PW, I like that.

Maybe I'll have to con my wife into buying me another pocket wizard for XMAS.

If anyone has additional info on a workaround it would be great.

Aloha

[canonpink]

Red;3859341']PacAce, I have a 580EX II, and it is direct to the PC terminal from the PocketWizard.

CanonPink, This does help, thanks. I'm gonna need a longer PC cord and a hotshoe adapter for my 430EX to follow your suggestion, which is cheaper than buying another PW, I like that.

Maybe I'll have to con my wife into buying me another pocket wizard for XMAS.

If anyone has additional info on a workaround it would be great.

Aloha

PacAce is years ahead of me on lighting. I suggest you keep experimenting and see what works. I fiddled with this master/slave deal for hours before realizing that the manual for the 580 being a master assumes that it is receiving info from the camera. When I put the 580 on the camera with the other flash in slave mode, I was able to control everything exactly the way I wanted with no issues. It was almost like I turned everything on after a couple hours of horsing around. I wish this would simply work, but the problem with a 580 master in manual and the slave in ETTLII mode is that the ETTL is going to need info from the camera for the ETTLII info to do its job on that flash and it simply will not receive it.

Now, if you get the ST-E2 and set the master on manual and the slave on ETTLII, I am not sure if you get a "measured" flash from the slave as you would for a primary flash on ETTLII, if your master is on Manual. That is interesting.

Yes, I would recommend you get a PC cord vs another PW due to the expense.

CP

[Lotto]

For the 580 II, the PC terminal only work in slave mode. You need a hot shoe adapter for the PW.

[canonpink]

For the 580 II, the PC terminal only work in slave mode. You need a hot shoe adapter for the PW.

That stinks; didn't know that.

[PacAce]

Red;3859341']PacAce, I have a 580EX II, and it is direct to the PC terminal from the PocketWizard.

CanonPink, This does help, thanks. I'm gonna need a longer PC cord and a hotshoe adapter for my 430EX to follow your suggestion, which is cheaper than buying another PW, I like that.

Maybe I'll have to con my wife into buying me another pocket wizard for XMAS.

If anyone has additional info on a workaround it would be great.

Aloha

For the 580 II, the PC terminal only work in slave mode. You need a hot shoe adapter for the PW.
As Lotto said, you can fire the 580EX II in Master mode if you use a hotshoe adapter to connect it to your PW. When you do get your setup to work, just be aware that your max sync speed will probably drop down to 1/125 from 1/200 because of the unconventional way you are triggering the 430EX with the 580EX.

[Lotto]

Canonpink, when we say set the 430EX to ETTL mode, the flash is actually working in manual mode, it's just one way how Canon master/slave setup works. There is no auto flash mode once the PW is used on top the camera.

[canonpink]

Canonpink, when we say set the 430EX to ETTL mode, the flash is actually working in manual mode, it's just one way how Canon master/slave setup works. There is no auto flash mode once the PW is used on top the camera.

So back to the suggestion about 580 master in manual (triggered by PW via an appropriate hot shoe adapter), PW on camera, and the 430 in slave on ETTL triggered by the 580 master. This will work then where you can direct the output manually for both flashes via only the 580?

[[AP]Red]

Lots of great info guys, thank you. Im gonna order some hotshoe adapters and get back to shooting. Any recommendations on the adapters or which ones to stay away from?

Aloha

[canonpink]

Red;3859528']Lots of great info guys, thank you. Im gonna order some hotshoe adapters and get back to shooting. Any recommendations on the adapters or which ones to stay away from?

Aloha

This guy does great work and has very useful adapters and is a POTN member.

www.flashzebra.com

CP

[[AP]Red]

*Bookmarked*

Gonna check it out.

[Franko515]

A quick question for the thread.

So if I have 2 580EX IIs and 3 PW IIs, Im good to shoot manual with normal sync speeds (1/250th). And this is possible without hotshoe because the 580EX II can be used in slave mode with the PC terminal

But no E-ttl unless I add a hotshoe to PW, which will then only allow me 1/125th sync.

Or I could add another 580EX II(on camera) to control the other two flashes off camera, retain E-TTL and be able to set ratios.

Is the above correct?

Thanks in advance for your replies

[canonpink]

Or I could another 580EX II(on camera, set not to fire) to control the other two flashes off camera and retain E-TTL.


Or buy the ST-E2 vs another flash.

I think that your sync speed will remain at least at 1/200 because I have this exact setup and when I dropped my shutter below 1/200, the only change was more ambient light from a side window that was easy to monitor via the LCD and histogram.

CP

[PacAce]

A quick question for the thread.

So if I have 2 580EX IIs and 3 PW IIs, Im good to shoot manual with normal sync speeds (1/250th). And this is possible without hotshoe because the 580EX II can be used in slave mode with the PC terminal

But no E-ttl unless I add a hotshoe to PW, which will then only allow me 1/125th sync.


If you are not using an ST-E2 or another 580EX/550EX as a master on top of the camera (or connected via an OSC2 cable), you will not be able to operate the flashes in true ETTL mode (i.e. the camera determining flash exposure, not you). If you use the PW, all your flashes will need to work in manual mode, either set on the slave flashes themselves, or via the master flash, also set to manual. The fact that the slaves are in ETTL mode does not mean that they are working in ETTL mode in strictest sense. All it means is that the slaves will get exposure info from the master which you have set yourself.


Or I could add another 580EX II(on camera) to control the other two flashes off camera, retain E-TTL and be able to set ratios.

Is the above correct?

Thanks in advance for your replies
Yes, that is correct although you can still use ratios in the previous setup (with the PWs), too.

[Franko515]

Or buy the ST-E2 vs another flash.

I think that your sync speed will remain at least at 1/200 because I have this exact setup and when I dropped my shutter below 1/200, the only change was more ambient light from a side window that was easy to monitor via the LCD and histogram.

CP

Thanks sir

If you are not using an ST-E2 or another 580EX/550EX as a master on top of the camera (or connected via an OSC2 cable), you will not be able to operate the flashes in true ETTL mode (i.e. the camera determining flash exposure, not you). If you use the PW, all your flashes will need to work in manual mode, either set on the slave flashes themselves, or via the master flash, also set to manual. The fact that the slaves are in ETTL mode does not mean that they are working in ETTL mode in strictest sense. All it means is that the slaves will get exposure info from the master which you have set yourself.



Yes, that is correct although you can still use ratios in the previous setup (with the PWs), too.

Thanks for the reply

[canonpink]

Thanks sir
Welcome.