A Strange Situation - Advice Appreciated

[bluesoul]

I promised myself I wouldn't shoot for a byline but I've got an interesting sort of predicament.

There are two local newspapers in my area, a long-established paper and a new up-and-comer. This new paper took interest in some shots I've taken and the editor contacted me today. She said she isn't able to pay me at the moment (which I promised myself I needed to end the conversation at such a point), but she could pay my gas if I was doing assignments out of the way, she would set up my images on a SmugMug-esque gallery and I would get the pay for them. I'd retain all copyrights to my photos, I'd essentially be granting usage to the paper and nothing more. I would be able to sell my photos back the local high school (who this paper has an exclusive deal with) and for families interested in prints and the like. I'd get my name on it throughout and occasional photo specials.

I'd also have the opportunity, though she didn't come out and say it, to eventually take part in the day-to-day editing of the paper. This would be off in the future once the advertisements are paying better (which, she told me, the photos make the newspaper and she thinks my work would help make her newspaper).

So I'm asking for some advice from someone that's been there. Personally I think it's a really exciting opportunity, especially that I could take over on the technical side of the paper (she is not very computer-inclined, and less so camerawise; I told her about my recent purchase of a 20d and she informed me she had a "Canon E-O-S".) But, being 19, I think it could be a good start.

End rambling. Thanks.

[sonshine_rae]

I haven't 'been there' .. so hope it's okay to reply.

But under all the circumstances you've listed .. I'd probably go ahead and do it. Especially since you have the opportunity to be paid by school families etc.

You might consider having a contract drawn up .. so it's not all talk.. especially defining the copyrights issue.. and the like.

[bluesoul]

I'm probably gonna go ahead with it but if anyone has anything to add please go ahead.

[JaertX]

heck no. work for someone for nothing? unless you really like them and want to help them out, I'd say it's a bad idea and you'll probably end up regretting getting involved.

[jpwone]

I'm opening a restaurant and need someone to peel potatoes. I've seen some potatoes you've peeled and really like them and if you come and peel potatoes for me I can't pay you but I'll let everyone know you peeled the potatoes. Before I forget, you will need to use your own potato peeler.

Seriously, don't expect a lot of print sales. A newspaper is a very busy business. How much time and how high a priority do you think getting your images uploaded to a sales channel will get?

Printers also make the paper. Do you think she is negotiating a similar deal with the printers?

A lot of reasons not to do it so here are a few why you might want to ignore this and go ahead. It will give you a wide range of experience both photographically and of dealing with people. It will give you a portfolio of work that you can refer to for other work.

I think you should go back once the excitement of possibly doing this has settled a bit and negotiate. The minimum you want is all assignments pay at least minimum wage and expenses (paying gas is not the same as paying expenses). Expenses should cover use of your equipment, use of your transport (mileage), parking etc. You also need to clarify who is paying for insurance of equipment and make sure that you are covered by their third party liability insurance when on assignment.

Sound to me like she wants to run her business out of your pocket.

[Mike R]

I was contacted by 2 newspapers who wanted me to take the same shot for them. They got my name from a rep of the local high school that I shoot the sports program for. She told them that I would give them the shot! One of the papers said they would pay $35 and give credit. The other paper told me that it was their policy to not pay or give credit! That the only bylines are of their staff photographers! The first paper confirmed they are using the shot I submitted and I am regretfully giving it to the other paper only because of the additional work I had received because of the high school rep.
I told the paper that I am doing it because of the historical moment for the people of our town and that I want it to be shared by those who couldn't attend the event. They had the nerve to ask if I will also supply sports photos in the future and was told that they were not at the event because "I start work at 9am" So she wanted me to do her work so she wouldn't have to start work early. I told them I would not supply any other photos but that I will be supplying them to their competition!

[Bobster]

I'm opening a restaurant and need someone to peel potatoes. I've seen some potatoes you've peeled and really like them and if you come and peel potatoes for me I can't pay you but I'll let everyone know you peeled the potatoes. Before I forget, you will need to use your own potato peeler.
what kind of potatoes are they, i might be interested ;)

[jpwone]

Kerr's Pink. A great mashing potato.

http://www.britishpotatoes.co.uk/varieties-pv-kerrspink.asp

:-)

[vwpilot]

Yeah, bad idea. All those promises rarely work out as promised. If she really likes you work and respects it, she'll be back when she can afford to pay for it. Otherwise you're a young kid wiling to work for free with a few promises of grandeur.

[dbvirago]

I'd want to know more about the 'SmugMug-esque gallery'. If it were a professional grade photo site and if you had control of content and pricing and if it were free, then this might be enough compensation for the work.

If you are doing it for experience, fine but remember, you will gain that experience soon. Then you are back to doing it for nothing.

And regardless, like someone else said, if you take it, renegotiate after a bit. keep an eye on their circulation and advertising.

[cosworth]

I'm opening a restaurant and need someone to peel potatoes. I've seen some potatoes you've peeled and really like them and if you come and peel potatoes for me I can't pay you but I'll let everyone know you peeled the potatoes. Before I forget, you will need to use your own potato peeler.


This is pure gold. I'm stealing it. :cool:

[bluesoul]

She was referring to Webshots, which I just looked up. I'd have to insist that she let me handle the selling of my prints through SM or EM as I have a domain and am only lacking the direction I want to take the website.

I'm going to head out now and ask for her to cover my expenses in addition to minimum wage for hours worked. I'm also going to make sure I retain the copyright and the ability to sell prints. As far as I'm concerned I really have nothing to lose here, exposure and word of mouth go so far in a rural community like this.

[Jon, The Elder]

Darned....just can't see where the OP, who asked for advice and got it, followed one bit of it.

Why do people do that?

[stathunter]

Spend the time you would be working for free at another job that pays for your time and skills. As you get older and mature you will realize that if the paper can make money selling advertisements and papers than you can ask for compensation for your work. DO NOTHING FOR FREE UNLESS IT IS WITH A CHURCH or similar organization (then you can write it off on your taxes) but still dont be shy to ask the church for money.

[IndyJeff]

Ok, you ready for this? Sit down because you won't believe my response to the OP.


Go ahead and start supplying her with images. She has offered some sort of expense money hasn't she? So all you will be out is your time.
Now the important part is to discuss with her a timeline on when you can start getting paid. Exactly how much time you will be putting in on the free end and how much you will be getting once you are getting paid.
I would imagine that within a month to 6 weeks you should be able to collect a small fee for use of your images. In 6 months, maybe less she should be able to give you a raise.

I normally don't condone free working conditions however, if your just starting out it will give you some experience and allow you to get in on the ground floor of this new venture. Just be sure you have a cutoff date for when you start getting paid. If she can't pay you by then, too bad. You have done what you could and lived up to your part of the bargin and if she doen't, adios amigo.

[stathunter]

....................So all you will be out is your time.
...........

Time is something we do not have much of.........sell yours for all you can get for it.

[sonshine_rae]

Ok, you ready for this? Sit down because you won't believe my response to the OP.


Go ahead and start supplying her with images. She has offered some sort of expense money hasn't she? So all you will be out is your time.
Now the important part is to discuss with her a timeline on when you can start getting paid. Exactly how much time you will be putting in on the free end and how much you will be getting once you are getting paid.
I would imagine that within a month to 6 weeks you should be able to collect a small fee for use of your images. In 6 months, maybe less she should be able to give you a raise.

I normally don't condone free working conditions however, if your just starting out it will give you some experience and allow you to get in on the ground floor of this new venture. Just be sure you have a cutoff date for when you start getting paid. If she can't pay you by then, too bad. You have done what you could and lived up to your part of the bargin and if she doen't, adios amigo.

There ya go.. that's what I was thinking but couldn't formulate into words earlier! .. Contract.. and time limit.. then go ahead and do it.. with those above stipulations!

[bluesoul]

So we talked today and discussed everything; pay, methods of distribution, attribution, copyrights, insurance.

The short of it is I'll get $25 per assignment, whether or not she uses my pictures. I grant her usage for the newspaper and retain all copyrights. I also recieve credit in the byline as the photographer.

Two gray areas were the gallery, as I would much prefer to have control over that aspect, and insurance, since she didn't know whether she was covered for third party liability.

Overall it went better than I expected. :)

[delhi]

$25 per assignment? How many pix? Gas mileage? Time spent on PP? Resolution size? Yeessh... What if that assignment is a 3hr stint? So it's basically? $8/hr? :-?

[jpwone]

Well done bluesoul.

You went in with a plan and came out with a result. Yes, it would be nice to have got a bigger bite of the cherry but personally I think you did well. Now you get the experience and you get paid. Not a lot but at least you are not paying for the privilege of working.

The other experience you now have is you have learnt a bit about the business side of photography and that will serve you well.

Plan = result
No plan = peel potatoes

You need to tie down the insurance thing and you also need to tie down how you bill and how and when you get paid.

Again, well done and hope it works for you.

[LBaldwin]

Ok, you ready for this? Sit down because you won't believe my response to the OP.


Go ahead and start supplying her with images. She has offered some sort of expense money hasn't she? So all you will be out is your time.
Now the important part is to discuss with her a timeline on when you can start getting paid. Exactly how much time you will be putting in on the free end and how much you will be getting once you are getting paid.
I would imagine that within a month to 6 weeks you should be able to collect a small fee for use of your images. In 6 months, maybe less she should be able to give you a raise.

I normally don't condone free working conditions however, if your just starting out it will give you some experience and allow you to get in on the ground floor of this new venture. Just be sure you have a cutoff date for when you start getting paid. If she can't pay you by then, too bad. You have done what you could and lived up to your part of the bargin and if she doen't, adios amigo.

Indy has hit the nail on the head IF you want to go ahead and work the deal. Get it in writing and set dates in the future by which you will start getting paid.

Newspapers rarely pay very much for images anyway and rural means almost nothing in the way pay is going to be the norm. I have tried this three times with startup magazines and only once has it actually gotten to the point of money back in my pocket. So be forewarned that you are probably going to lose your shirt somewhat.

Ask to see the numbers the paper is working on NOW, not the potential ones that are vapor wear. If she is well funded and has working capitol to run the paper than it may work out. But if she is putting the light bill etc on her AMEX then....

Try it and find out, you may be a winner. BUT I would not put all my eggs in one basket either

Les

[sspellman]

Bleusoul-

Doing limited work for cheap/free that might create good opportunities I consider part of my marketing efforts. As Jeff pointed out, there has to be a clear plan and timeline to proper compensation. You must establish a clear difference in what you contribute for free and the additional value you would contribute for properly paid work. A few tips-

1) Keep free work limited-Once a month or only for a few months.
2) Limit rights by contract and clearly establish fees for 3rd party sales.
3) Require photo credit.
4) Exchange work for advertising(at full rates)

I have a few cheaper clients, and I simply tell them that I can only afford to work for them once a month until they raise their rates.

-Scott

[Curtis N]

I'm opening a restaurant and need someone to peel potatoes. I've seen some potatoes you've peeled and really like them and if you come and peel potatoes for me I can't pay you but I'll let everyone know you peeled the potatoes. Before I forget, you will need to use your own potato peeler.This is pure gold. I'm stealing it. :cool:Me, too!

For what it's worth, I provide free images to newspapers only as a philanthropic endeavor to promote a non-profit organization that I support. I'll also do it as a courtesy to clients, like the theatre groups that buy pictures from me. The publicity benefits them and ultimately it benefits me.

The reality is that we all need to start somewhere and at some point every opportunity to gain experience and make contacts is invaluable. The key is to recognize when you reach the point where your experience has value to someone else and not get taken advantage of.