Setting the trap- team roping

[Dale Miller]

Here are a couple of team roping shots showing the job of the heeler.

[seedy_179]

Plus 5 penalty on the second one.

I never seem to be in the right spot 90% of the time during team roping. Most of the arenas I shoot are so big that the catch can happen anywhere.

Nice shots.

[HotShots]

Great shots again, Dale.

Based on the little rodeo I have shot, the roping events appear to be the hardest to shoot. You've done an excellent job with these.

[Dale Miller]

Actually this run was clean, and yes I have the most trouble with team roping because you are trying to get a good sharp picture of three animals, two people, all spread out and still be able to crop 8X10 with no loss.

[HammerCope]

I will agree team roping sucks to shoot. Maybe its just my old D30 it only has the three focus points. Team roping is when I really mis the olod days with my manual focus. Team roping was much easier to do then.

[DwightMcCann]

Too bad the light was so harsh ... looks like you had a good vantage and good run.

[tkoutdoor]

Actually this run was clean, and yes I have the most trouble with team roping because you are trying to get a good sharp picture of three animals, two people, all spread out and still be able to crop 8X10 with no loss.
What limits you to the 8x10 ratio? The camera? Customer protocol? Your own protocol? Easier framing size? Something else?

[HammerCope]

Most of your customers at rodeos are going to buy 8x10 or 5x7. At least at mine that is.

[Dale Miller]

We do not sell anything smaller than 8X10, that is the reason for that limit.

[tkoutdoor]

We do not sell anything smaller than 8X10, that is the reason for that limit.What I'm getting at is the size ratio. The native sensor size on my 20d is a different ratio than an 8x10 format. It's a bit wider so it allows for more variation in width of frame if someone wants to use the whole frame. It has a 2:3 ratio so it naturally produces sizes like 4x6, 8x12, & 13x19, 11x17 is somewhat close. I'm wondering if your sensor is naturally producing the 8x10 ratio or if the market sort of demands the 8x10 and 16x20 format, or something else. You've mentioned that it's hard to get this kind of picture to fit in the frame. It would fit a little more easily in a larger frame, so the natural question for me is what sets the limit at the 8x10 & 16x20 format? It could be something as simple as those are standard frame sizes and the market doesn't support non-standard sizes very well, I've wondered about this for my own pictures.

[HammerCope]

Basicly its the croping of the picture to an 8x10 size. Things are happening so fast that it might look good as a picture. Then you crop it and thing are too strung out to crop to a nice picture. this happen to me more on the heading side than the heeling end. I most likly didn't explane this well but hopefully I did. Now Dale said he does not sell anything smaller than 8x10. I dont sell anything smaller than 5x7. I'd say 90-95% of my sales are 8x10.

[tkoutdoor]

Basicly its the croping of the picture to an 8x10 size. Things are happening so fast that it might look good as a picture. Then you crop it and thing are too strung out to crop to a nice picture. this happen to me more on the heading side than the heeling end. I most likly didn't explane this well but hopefully I did. Now Dale said he does not sell anything smaller than 8x10. I dont sell anything smaller than 5x7. I'd say 90-95% of my sales are 8x10.I see. I thought cropping might be a part of it as center focus part is probably the best way to shoot action. It's what I do and expect to crop later. With a horse and rider if I focus on on the head of the animal the rider ends up being in a rule of thirds position usually, or close enough that a little cropping makes it work out. With multiple subjects and autofocus (versus manual focus) getting all that to fit together is a definite challenge. I'm having the same issues for the same shots, though I'm shooting from outside the rail. I wonder how well 45 AF points with eye control does in a situation like this. I can't justify the 1D series yet, but it's something I wonder about.

[Dale Miller]

The cropping issue is that if you fill your frames in the team roping it will not crop 8X10, as you said its more like 8X12. As far as focus goes I use to use the center focus point @ f5.6, but another photographer told me to shift my focus three to the right and focus on the header for my first shot (on the corner) then place that same focus square on the steer for the heel shot. Staying at 5.6 as much as I can if ones in focus they all seem to be.

[Dale Miller]

Here is a little example of what Im talking about, to many things going at once, plus to cut at 8X10 you get alot of foreground.

[DwightMcCann]

Here is a little example of what Im talking about, to many things going at once, plus to cut at 8X10 you get alot of foreground.
Tell those cowboys to shorten the ropes! Maybe you could work some sort of their stats into part of the dead space.

[ForumForker]

My toughest challenge in team roping is the faces. Every cowboy/girl wears a hat. And the hat always shades their face. If you can use a flash, and position ahead of the header you have a chance. I love to shoot these events. Indoor shooting in arenas is even worse. You have some pretty nice pics here. Nicely done.

[tkoutdoor]

Here is a little example of what Im talking about, to many things going at once, plus to cut at 8X10 you get alot of foreground.
Yes, I do see your problem. The problem seems to me to start with choosing to use an 8x10 format when another crop ratio could actually capture the whole scene. The natural solution to me seems to choose a different crop ratio so that you can keep the photos that you actually capture, with a complete scene. Some shots deserve to be all that they can be and an alternate size ratio would help these kind of shots. I'm not suggesting you don't shoot the picture at the most compressed point you can capture all the action, but even then I bet it almost never fits in 8x10 ratio so you probably don't have many of those scenes to offer your clients. If you can't actually get this event delivered to your client very effectively I think they are missing out on some really great shots.

So, the nature of my questioning has been... What keeps you stuck at using the 8x10 & 16x20 ratio for this type of event (not the other rodeo events)? Personal preference? Clients only buy those sizes? You only want to market it how you're accustomed to doing it? Frames can be easily had at 10x20 so that leaves a possibility for a crop ratio of something like 7x17 or 8x18 using a mat, or maybe a full 10x20 without. It could even be a custom frame at any size format you decide on, but that gets expensive to the buyer. That's the nature of my questions. I would crop them to suit the picture and let the framing fall where it may. You must have some reason for not doing that, I'm curious what it might be. You have expertise at this, I'm trying to learn something about this type of decision.

[Dale Miller]

Your question is a good one. I may need to think on it for a while, but for now all I can give is a bad answer. Thats the way we have always done it. I know that is a lazy mans answer to a simple question but its early here in CA. and I am only half way in to the first pot of coffee. When I can give you a better answer I will. Thanks everyone for your input......Dale