LISTEN UP

[Maureen Souza]

Sorry if my title sounded harsh but I really want everyone to read this thread.

For several months I have been getting a lot of comments about the rude and uppity attitude of some of the posters in this forum. There has even been jokes of wayward forum members being bannished to the Wedding Forum as their punishment.

Now I know all of you are out there trying to do the best and most creative work for your customers. But please don't do it with such an attitude that you are putting each other down and making rude comments to each other. That is not what we are about here.

Please remember that we don't all do things the same way or for the same reason. I never charge for wedding photography. I have a great paying job and I shoot when I get asked and do it Pro Bono. It allows me to play with my gear and try to improve my style. A lot of couples are on a shoe string budget and many people don't get married in grandiose style. Those are the weddings I mostly shoot. I don't care that 12 people are standing around me with their cameras and shooting too.....and that is my right when I shoot.

But it is hard for me to post that info here because I have been lamblasted for it....as well as posting simple wedding photos without a lot of flair because the wedding had no flair (backyard BBQ events;))

Please try to remember that everyone here is trying to do their best job and they come in here for help and advice when having difficulties. They share their photos sometimes just for fun and sometimes for critiquing. If you can help them, do it in good spirit.

I am going to start calling some of you on the carpet if the rude/sarcastic remarks continue. Let's try to do better here...no one wants to be put down or embarrassed when they ask for advice/help.

[JJacula]

I don't find that at all. I'm a total newb to wedding photography and this forum is full of wonderful people who have been more than willing to help me, critique my photos and several have gone above and beyond in giving me advice.

Compared to other photog forums I frequent, this is the one I enjoy most. You get HONEST feedback here. People don't beat around the bush or feed you a line of BS, and I like that. If people come here only wanting to hear how wonderful their photos are, well, they shouldn't come at all.

I'd gladly have any of the posters on this forum over for supper - this is a good group.

[liza]

There may be a couple of people who are rude, Maureen, but they are far outnumbered by the ones who truly wish to help. Perhaps some of the posters should specify that they don't want critique and just prefer to hear "nice shot" instead. Constructive critique is essential for those who want to do this for pay. It's a highly litigious field to enter, so one should be prepared for bridezillas armed with ambulance chaser-type lawyers. You can't be thin skinned.

And we don't appreciate the intermittent invasions by certain individuals who shall remain nameless. This type of behavior, which seems to be promoted by some of those in charge , is rude and uncalled for.

And for what it's worth, I think the lens and camera forums are a hundred times worse. Was this notification posted in those areas as well? If not, it
should be.

[Maureen Souza]

There may be a couple of people who are rude, Maureen, but they are far outnumbered by the ones who truly wish to help. Perhaps some of the posters should specify that they don't want critique and just prefer to hear "nice shot" instead. Constructive critique is essential for those who want to do this for pay. It's a highly litigious field to enter, so one should be prepared for bridezillas armed with ambulance chaser-type lawyers. You can't be thin skinned.

And we don't appreciate the intermittent invasions by certain individuals who shall remain nameless. This type of behavior, which seems to be promoted by some of those in charge , is rude and uncalled for.

And for what it's worth, I think the lens and camera forums are a hundred times worse. Was this notification posted in those areas as well? If not, it
should be.

I am only going to address the people in this forum on this issue, Liza. I don't want to come across as a hard a$$ but I do think it is time that something is said.......before it becomes any bigger of a problem. I have read a couple of threads this weekend that upset me with some of the comments directed towards to OP. Not everyone posts photos for critiquing (I don't). Some people want advice....not to be put down for not knowing something.
And so, when I'd had enough, I decided to say something.

I am not accusing everyone here of this behavior......but there is more of it than I'd like to see. Really, this was just a reminder for everyone to mind their P's and Q's.

[subtle_spectre]

Thank you for saying this Maureen. I think it is right on point.

[JaertX]

Maureen...you realize you just made a blanket negative post about this entire section of the forum and maligned a large number of people instead of "calling to the carpet" some individual who is causing a problem?

I sure hope this isn't a policy that's going to stick. I realize POTN doesn't exist based on post counts or a forum membership, but I for one will lose interest if I can't count on getting/reading honest comments.

I agree that singling someone out that is just out-right nasty, but to make blanket statements about a large group of people seams...well, mean.

[figmented]

You should beable to get amazing photos no matter WHERE the location or WHAT the decoration, If you are good at what you do.

But I like to see everyones images. I like to see 'omg badass' weddings and drool over the photos. I like to see 'omg crappy' images to compare myself to quality, style and pricing wise. I like to see everything, because then I know where I stand and where I need to improve.

I like to see everyones flaws, So I can learn to correct them for the future of myself.

If someone posts a photo that is crappy, then of course people are going to say that. But we often get the case where people RAVE about crappy photos.

I'm not a very social person except with my clients, So I need a place to vent, rant and rave.

-jon

[Woogie]

The honest, blunt critiques might be due to the fact that this is a wedding forum where doing great work is very important. Weddings are a once-in-a-lifetime event, so it's of extreme importance that the shooters get it right.

You don't see brutally honest critiques in the sports section or the people section very often because it isn't as important to get the perfect pictures. Wedding photos are once-in-a-lifetime, ideally anyways.

I don't think the seasoned wedding photographers in this part of the forum are rude. I find their advice very valuable and I humbly take every bit of their comments and critiques.

The only time where I see thread starters getting upset is when they come in here asking about what universal settings they should use for an upcoming wedding or whether their body + kit lens + thrifty fifty will suffice for wedding photography. We've even had people ask if their S2 IS would suffice for wedding photography. Refering back to my previous statement, these 'rude' posters only come off sounding harsh because they realize the importance of having great photos for such events.

[Maureen Souza]

I am not trying to be mean. I am trying to send out a blanket reminder to treat each other respectfully and decently. If you are having a problem with common courtesy then maybe you shouldn't be posting at all. I never said it was all of you but it is more than I want to see here. You all would be surprised to hear the number of complaints we Mods receive about this forum.

Woogie: I know that wedding photos are captured cherished memories. But even to many B&G, they are aren't that important. There are some couples can't afford a photographer. I never had a photographer at my own wedding because we were on such a tight budget. Still I have been married for 23 years. I survived without pictures;)

We don't need to be so self righteous to the point of upsetting and hurting other people. All I am asking is that you examine what you say and how you say it before posting here. Thanks.

[lil_miss]

Thanks Maureen :) well said.

[hard12find]

Bravo Maureen, I actually get a kick out of peoples comments because I never ask for critique, I just post to share photo's I like, and if others don't like it I can live with that too. I think some people forget that not every one is looking for critique some of us are just posting to share.....I am confident enough in my skills that I just laugh at most comments from the "pro's"......

[mizuno]

Nice shot.

[a521]

Thank you Maureen!

I've actually removed my avatar, gear listing and stopped posting pictures after reading the Wedding section for the last week or so. I don't think some people give honest critique of photos posted by those of us that they consider "less than" Pro's in the wedding forum.

I will be the first to apologize though, for my rants recently. I became very angry after reading several people asking for help with weddings and you get comments like "leave the heavy lifting to the pros", "Don't do it, let a pro do it" and "did you get paid to take those?"

[Maureen Souza]

Thank you Maureen!

I will be the first to apologize though, for my rants recently. I became very angry after reading several people asking for help with weddings and you get comments like "leave the heavy lifting to the pros", "Don't do it, let a pro do it" and "did you get paid to take those?"
That's the sort of thing I am referring to. Sorry you were the brunt of those inappropriate comments.

[lil_miss]

I think many people forget that you have to start somewhere... and a willingness to share expertise goes a long way...

[liza]

Thank you Maureen!

I've actually removed my avatar, gear listing and stopped posting pictures after reading the Wedding section for the last week or so. I don't think some people give honest critique of photos posted by those of us that they consider "less than" Pro's in the wedding forum.

I will be the first to apologize though, for my rants recently. I became very angry after reading several people asking for help with weddings and you get comments like "leave the heavy lifting to the pros", "Don't do it, let a pro do it" and "did you get paid to take those?"

You're right. Sometimes I don't give honest critique. I say "nice shots" or "nice series" instead to preserve the person's feelings when I may think the images are total crap. Or if the images have no redeeming qualities whatsoever, I don't say anything at all. But I don't make comments like you've posted in your second paragraph and can only think of two regulars and a few stray trolls who do. So please don't group all of us into the same category. If you can't take honest, adult critique, simply say that you don't want it when you post your images.

And God help you if you ever post in the lens forum.

And, Cripps, you're just not right. :lol:

[thekid24]

I think a lot of people forget the difference between helpful critique and running off at the mouth.

[Tragerman]

Nice shot.
Man, how cold! ;)

Actually, I'm surprised to see this. I haven't seen the hard comments lately, like I had several months ago.
-Mickey

[TXLEBER]

I have seen plenty of these comments that Maureen is referring to. Good, honest critique of a photo is helpful and healthy for everyone. However, what I've see a lot of is when someone asks a "noob" question that may be a little too amerature-ish, someone will respond with...."if you have to ask, are you sure you should be doing this?" In my opinion, comments like that are absolutely uncalled for. It does nothing but belittle the member asking a question.

[JaertX]

I guess my only gripe with those that are a little mean with their comments is the most opinionated critics usually don't have any way of seeing if they are worth listening to, or they have posted photos and they're lousy. It's very irritating to me that someone would blast another person, but then they don't have the guts to put a link to their website on their profile...I think it says a lot.

[notapro]

I guess my only gripe with those that are a little mean with their comments is the most opinionated critics usually don't have any way of seeing if they are worth listening to, or they have posted photos and they're lousy. It's very irritating to me that someone would blast another person, but then they don't have the guts to put a link to their website on their profile...I think it says a lot.

Some people value anonymity in these types of forums, and with good reason IMO. Anybody who doesn' think the opinions of the general public are worh listening to, probably shouldn't ask for them on a forum open to the general public.


That being said, I have seen some comments that go beyond honest critique of the work and can become quite personal and quite rude (not just on this forum, but this forum included). Regardless of how thick the OP's skin might be in any situation, nobody benefits from those comments, so what's the point?

[belmondo]

Maureen...you realize you just made a blanket negative post about this entire section of the forum and maligned a large number of people instead of "calling to the carpet" some individual who is causing a problem?

Evidently you didn't read her post carefully. Try again.

[JaertX]

Now I know all of you are out there trying to do the best and most creative work for your customers. But please don't do it with such an attitude that you are putting each other down and making rude comments to each other. (my emphasis...of course)

fair enough Belmondo...I reread it, but it still seams like a general hand-slap to an entire section of the forum.

But I will take back calling it mean...she certainly doesn't have a mean tone to it. I'm probably glad that I have no idea how many complaints you all are hearing which is obviously what prompted the post in the first place.

[Maureen Souza]

(my emphasis...of course)

fair enough Belmondo...I reread it, but it still seams like a general hand-slap to an entire section of the forum.

But I will take back calling it mean...she certainly doesn't have a mean tone to it. I'm probably glad that I have no idea how many complaints you all are hearing which is obviously what prompted the post in the first place.
I am not trying to "slap" anyone but just remind all of us on how we reply here and treat each other with respect.
I am sorry it has gotten to this point but it was just a general statement and I tried not to do any finger pointing or embarrass anyone.

[thekid24]

I am not trying to "slap" anyone but just remind all of us on how we reply here and treat each other with respect.
. I am sorry it has gotten to this point but it was just a general statement and I tried not to do any finger pointing or embarrass anyone.
no need for apologies....you did it the right way. Glad someone is doing something about it:D

[Maureen Souza]

no need for apologies....you did it the right way. Glad someone is doing something about it:D
Thanks. And thanks to all of you for your support and your PM's.

I truly believe this is an awesome forum and I don't want people to think we have bad attitudes and can't be respectful here. I enjoy all the work on this wedding forum and am envious of all the talent I see here.

[JaertX]

I truly believe this is an awesome forum and I don't want people to think we have bad attitudes and can't be respectful here. I enjoy all the work on this wedding forum and am envious of all the talent I see here.

you and me both...I think I've learned more here than anywhere else.

[JaertX]

I am sorry it has gotten to this point but it was just a general statement and I tried not to do any finger pointing or embarrass anyone.

I don't think I've seen a moderator jump in the middle of someone in the wedding section, but I have seen it happen on other parts of the board.

Um, firsthand even! :o

Why not post a "cool it fella" comment right out in public when someone is being a jerk? Maybe it would help?

[belmondo]

I don't think I've seen a moderator jump in the middle of someone in the wedding section, but I have seen it happen on other parts of the board.

Um, firsthand even! :o

Why not post a "cool it fella" comment right out in public when someone is being a jerk? Maybe it would help?Interesting comment. There's another thread running in the EOS forum where someone is complaining that we didn't PM a member who was being a bit of a jerk. Fact is, we will usually PM someone first. Occasionally we might determine the behavior warrants a more public approach, and that's more liikely to happen when we believe that doing so might have an educational benefit for the rest of the forum.

[Maureen Souza]

I don't think I've seen a moderator jump in the middle of someone in the wedding section, but I have seen it happen on other parts of the board.

Um, firsthand even! :o

Why not post a "cool it fella" comment right out in public when someone is being a jerk? Maybe it would help?
Well I guess I could do that but it's not really my style, although I have done that a couple of times. Since there has been a few threads with multiple posters not minding their manners, I decided to make it a public request.

I hope this resolves the issue and I don't have to deal with anyone on this matter again.

[cdifoto]

This thread should be a sticky (if it's not already).

[mizuno]

And, Cripps, you're just not right. :lol:

Lovely post. Fantastic. Well done.

[jamiewexler]

Honesty is not welcome in the wedding forum. Got it. All rainbows and unicorns from now on. I see a lot of "nice pics" posts in the future, which should be really helpful.

Really guys, is this necessary? I find most of the people who produce consistently professional work here are really helpful and generous with their time and expertise. You just gave them all a public slap on the wrist. Wouldn't it be much better to deal with the offender(s) individually than punish an entire group of (mostly innocent) bystanders?

Honestly, I love this forum for the opportunity to communicate at so many levels. Tough I don't have the guts to do it, I have a lot of respect for the folks that come right out and give honest critique on sub-par work. If this is a forum to learn about wedding photography, than folks should be prepared to get the honest truth about their work. While critique should almost always include ways that a photo should have been improved, sometimes even that's not possible.

And if you thing the 1 or two snippy comments every week here are bad, you guys should visit one of the pro wedding forums. This place is all warm and fuzzy compared to the places where a lot of pros hang out...

Also, it's this kind of generalized hand slap, as well as the occasional "banishment" of folks to the wedding forum that is going to cause the more professional members of this forum to go elsewhere.

[a521]

Honesty is not welcome in the wedding forum. Got it. All rainbows and unicorns from now on. I see a lot of "nice pics" posts in the future, which should be really helpful.


I think you're missing the point here...honest critque of a photo isn't the problem...read through this thread:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=370327

This guy was trying to get advice on equipment for his sisters wedding, look how many times he was told to just not do it, or leave it to the pros.

[mamabravo]

totally agree..... maureen

[Robert16]

He/She did get some good advice in among all the other stuff though. I've read over the thread. I don't think it is the worse I've seen. Had everyone replied to the question with "Sure, you"ll be fine." the guy/girl could have ended up with no usable indoor pics and a very unhappy sister. a521 - I am glad that you are here to stick up for us newbs but it's also good to have Mr. Blunts. I don't think that keystone came out any the worse for wear but did have some food for thought and, if determined, has a year to work it out.

[Padawan Dad]

I think that Maureen is addressing the attitude more than "the critique." In fact, I believe that she is welcoming critique, except asking people to mature a bit with their delivery.

I do find a lot of one track minds in this forum that believe that there is one way to take a picture, one way to post process, one way to run a business, one way to assemble an album, etc... I think we need more of an open mind here and an understanding that there are different levels of wedding photography. Some choose to stick with a basic traditional feel. Some like to offer prints right out of camera with some color correction, some spend time PP'ing and making an image a work of art, some charge a little, some charge a lot. Some give a little, some give a lot. Some choose to give CD's, some only prints.

I think that there is a perverted sense of a "standard" in the wedding industry, and this causes more heat, and arguments in wedding forums than is really necessary.

I find that there is a ton of talent here, unfortunately, some of the more talented photographers have a hard time being humble, and delivering critique in good taste.

To play devils advocate to my own statement; I also believe that typing something is a lot different than talking face to face, and I think that there is a tendency to interpret comments in a way that they were not meant to be heard.

[Banbert]

I find that there is a ton of talent here, unfortunately, some of the more talented photographers have a hard time being humble, and delivering critique in good taste.

To play devils advocate to my own statement; I also believe that typing something is a lot different than talking face to face, and I think that there is a tendency to interpret comments in a way that they were not meant to be heard.


QFT !

As my Nana says, "manners cost nothing" ... some people seem to think that because their giving blunt and honest C&C they are excused from this but theres never really an excuse imo.

Totally agree with what bill says about the "text effect" though .... its easy to interpret something the wrong way when its just written down ... I dont think that accounts for everything we have seen here by any stretch though.

[sblais]

To sum it all up:

- Give newbies a chance. Yes weddings are important, but they are also over-hyped. Some people do realize this and are not willing to pay big bucks for a photographer. As long as there is a mutual agreement between the parties involved and that all details are made clear before the event, all will be find in the Universe of Wedding Photography and the Earth will resume it daily rotation.

- We may continue to be blunt with our critique; this wasn't the point addressed. You may all cheer in happiness now. Politeness and good manners are still encouraged though.

- This is a nice thread.

[GertS]

I think you're missing the point here...honest critque of a photo isn't the problem...read through this thread:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=370327

This guy was trying to get advice on equipment for his sisters wedding, look how many times he was told to just not do it, or leave it to the pros.

I didn't comment in that thread as my first thought after looking at his work was "OMG". Maybe that others had the same thought and wrote it down in a way which was honest to their believes, but not friendly to the believe of the OP.
With the listed gear, just lenses & 2 GB cards, it's possible, but a high risk. Even renting gear would have been over the money what he had to spend for this.
It's not only the gear, the skills and the knowledge of the person matter much more.
OK, everybody sets ones expectations to another level. Some are happy with snap shots. For me the results must be on a high level, even I don't want to get the maximum possible out the image, as nobody is paying the work and most even don't notice it. I'm shooting not many weddings, but I'm no beginner after building up a knowledge base, which I'm still expanding. Most is done by own experience, but using ideas / techniques shown in forums was a help too.

If I'm doing a shooting for friends / relatives for free as a present, I want to keep friends.

Back to the OP, I have to ask what is worse:
a) an honest opinion, even it sounds harsh but I may realize the problems
b) no answer

For me the second is much worse

I'm for encouraging / supporting people, but as soon as I see that I see that the results will be poor, I think talking it out may be better, as nobody has won something this way.

I see the danger of "censored" forum. where only "nice" words are asked, is losing members too. Truth was never nice, it can be really hard.

So I can keep my comments back now. No need of competition with Mr Blunt who has over 22000 comments. Or Alicia, she must have stayed always online.

[MCB]

I just started reading the wedding photography section recently. I have looked at a lot of the threads, including the one linked above as an example of how hostile people can be. Honestly, I don't think it's any worse than any other area on this site. Are people here extra sensitive? Maybe first time wedding photographers are a bit nervous already and prone to taking things too personally?

And GertS is right, I've seen a lot of posts with few or no replies at all. Why no replies? Everyone wants to be polite and avoid pointing out how bad the picture is. And you always run the risk of offending if you actually give constructive advice. Advice like how to compose the shot better or how to achieve a better dept of field. Then the OP replies that they can't be bothered with all that technical mumbo jumbo. They don't want to read the manual, they just want to take great pictures! What's an aperture? ISO what? Like it's magic or something...

But with regards to wedding photography specifically, I think you really need to know exactly what the bride and groom expect. So for people here to comment on what is/isn't appropriate is difficult. Maybe the B&G really don't care and whatever pictures they get will be fine. But maybe they do care (even if they don't realize it themselves) and you'll lose a friend by giving them dozens of poorly expose, poorly composed, blurry shots. It seems reasonable to caution somebody before they enter this risky territory.

If they don't have an off-camera flash, a camera that performs well at high ISO, and/or a fast lens, shouldn't somebody warn them? Low-light shooting is tricky. If you haven't practices a lot, you could be in for a big surprise and the B&G won't be too happy. Equipment isn't everything, but in a dark church it's really important. Is it so bad to point out that it might be a bad idea to spend hundreds to rent or thousands to buy equipment for a wedding you aren't getting paid to shoot?

A lot of people (myself included) aren't so good at subtle advice. And a lot of people aren't so good at picking up on subtle hints. If you have something to say, say it. If you pussy foot around trying to be gentle you can give the wrong impression. If you think a person isn't ready, say it. Should you let them clutch their 50mm f/1.4 like a magic feather and hope they can fly?

Anyway, if you're being honest, but a bit harsh, it's better than keeping quiet or sugar coating everything. We all have to start somewhere, but we should do ourselves the favor of being well prepared, too.

[mmahoney]

Replacing honesty with politeness is in nobodys best interest.
Mike

[Woogie]

Everybody wants in on wedding photography these days. Go look on craigslist. There are a bunch of people with 'professional grade' camera and lenses who will shoot your wedding for $400. Turns out that they just got their xt + kit lens from best buy and immediately want a piece of the wedding pie.


If I were planning to shoot a wedding with very little gear and very little experience, I'd want to make a thread asking for advice about shooting and about equipment in this section. And I'd surely appreciate everyone's thoughts and comments, as brutal as they may be. Their wisdom and knowledge could save me from a fat lawsuit later down the road when the bride sees her photos and think they're absolutely rediculous.

[MALI]

.... This guy was trying to get advice on equipment for his sisters wedding, look how many times he was told to just not do it, or leave it to the pros.

So what is wrong with that? If someone believes the poster is not up to the job, s/he should not express his/her opinion????

I think this forum is one of the best in terms of the politeness level of exchanges and the spirit of camaraderie among members. And this is achieved by the common sense of its members.

If a teacher shouts a warning to a whole class, when it is only one or two kids who was acting up, the class will not say "Ok this was right; this was what we deserved." They will feel unnecessarily threatened because of a couple of individuals' misbehavior.

Besides, when you are dealing with people, you will find all sorts of characters, some shy, some outgoing, some loud mouths, some very gentleman, etc. Unless the exchanges completely get out of hand and goes overboard to openly insulting, cussing, threatening, which I have never observed in this forum, you should be ready to expect some not so politically correct responses from some members. We cannot always smile and use cute and cuddly words to each other. Human emotions are many and varied. Expecting otherwise is not realistic.

MALI

[notapro]

Replacing honesty with politness is in nobodys best interest.
Mike

I don't think honest and polite are two mutually exclusive categories. Tact and grace are traits that unfortunately not everyone has acquired.

As I see it, the problem is not with honesty, even blunt honesty, about posters' work. It's with personal attacks that go beyond critique. Blunt is better than sugar-coated, but it's also different from brutal.

[takeyourpic]

Honesty is good. Honesty with a dagger for their back is not what anybody needs. I don't visit some other areas of POTN because every shot that is submitted is praised for being a great shot. So I respect the people in here for giving honesty.
I think that there is also a "nice" way of telling people that their shots are not of the highest quality. There are all levels of experience on here and that is a huge positive. I think everybody just needs to look at giving a respectful response.

[belmondo]

I'm not sure I agree with the premise that a rude answer is better than no answer at all. Tough love might be a valid approach with incorrigible children, but not for a fellow photographer looking for assistance or advice.

[mmahoney]

All this of course depends on the individuals involved .. the worst case is when a thin skinned poster receives a to-the-point answer and is unable to accept it. Which happens very rarely .. this forum is generally very well behaved.

And some of the more experienced here may find less time to offer consise advice if they have to constantly reach for the sugar bowl while typing.
Mike

[Sp00ks]

Sorry if my title sounded harsh but I really want everyone to read this thread.

For several months I have been getting a lot of comments about the rude and uppity attitude of some of the posters in this forum. There has even been jokes of wayward forum members being bannished to the Wedding Forum as their punishment.

Now I know all of you are out there trying to do the best and most creative work for your customers. But please don't do it with such an attitude that you are putting each other down and making rude comments to each other. That is not what we are about here.

Please remember that we don't all do things the same way or for the same reason. I never charge for wedding photography. I have a great paying job and I shoot when I get asked and do it Pro Bono. It allows me to play with my gear and try to improve my style. A lot of couples are on a shoe string budget and many people don't get married in grandiose style. Those are the weddings I mostly shoot. I don't care that 12 people are standing around me with their cameras and shooting too.....and that is my right when I shoot.

But it is hard for me to post that info here because I have been lamblasted for it....as well as posting simple wedding photos without a lot of flair because the wedding had no flair (backyard BBQ events;))

Please try to remember that everyone here is trying to do their best job and they come in here for help and advice when having difficulties. They share their photos sometimes just for fun and sometimes for critiquing. If you can help them, do it in good spirit.

I am going to start calling some of you on the carpet if the rude/sarcastic remarks continue. Let's try to do better here...no one wants to be put down or embarrassed when they ask for advice/help.

Thank you for this Maureen. I think I have posted in this forum twice and got "lamblasted" both times. I was taking food from the mouths of babes (the pro's children) or harassing the guests with shutter clicks or some such nonsense. When I was asked by the bride and groom to take candids in the first place.

I have been asked to shoot probably 5 weddings since that time and I'm afraid of starving children throughout the world so have gracefully declined. :)

I must admit that I am guilty of some snide remarks about the wedding forum. Since this thread, I will stop with the remarks. I for one appreciate the moderators getting involved with this issue. I think it definitely makes for a better community but who am I? Not a pro wedding photographer.

Jerry M.

[strmrdr]

Everybody wants in on wedding photography these days. Go look on craigslist. There are a bunch of people with 'professional grade' camera and lenses who will shoot your wedding for $400. Turns out that they just got their xt + kit lens from best buy and immediately want a piece of the wedding pie.


If I were planning to shoot a wedding with very little gear and very little experience, I'd want to make a thread asking for advice about shooting and about equipment in this section. And I'd surely appreciate everyone's thoughts and comments, as brutal as they may be. Their wisdom and knowledge could save me from a fat lawsuit later down the road when the bride sees her photos and think they're absolutely rediculous.

sorry but that attitude is exactly the problem.
There is no sacred society of wedding photogs.
No wedding photog is owed a living wage they have too earn it.
There is a place for all levels and it will find a balance.
Being mean to newbies isn't the way too go about it.
I have shot weddings with f/4 and f/5.6 lens and 100 speed film in the same churches that everyone is screaming iso 3200 and f2.8 IS and captured some awesome images that people loved.
Never had a problem with the officiants using flash either because we captured the moments with a few well timed shots not by flashing 5000 times during the service.
Frankly I hate shooting weddings which is why I got out of it. That doesnt mean I couldn't go out and buy a dslr and be back into it in a week.

[picturecrazy]

You mods want us to behave maturely in the way you think we should, and then you make us the butt of your 'banishment' jokes?

gee, thanks...

[belmondo]

Just in case you missed it, the reality is that the Wedding Forum, fairly or not, has earned the reputation among many members of the forum of being a somewhat unfriendly place. Maureen and the other moderators intend to change that. People should not have to feel the least bit of trepidation in asking a question here any more than any of the other POTN forums Hopefully you will all help instead of becoming defensive.

[Jon]

I don't think I've seen a moderator jump in the middle of someone in the wedding section, but I have seen it happen on other parts of the board.

Um, firsthand even! :o

Why not post a "cool it fella" comment right out in public when someone is being a jerk? Maybe it would help?Different moderators have different styles. I'm more inclined than Mo is to post a "cool it" out in the open when I think it's merited, usually because someone's been a jerk to several members or has totally distorted reality. I tend to not hang around here because this isn't my thing. Mo has a different style, both shooting and moderating. So she's here more.

He/She did get some good advice in among all the other stuff though. I've read over the thread. I don't think it is the worse I've seen. Had everyone replied to the question with "Sure, you"ll be fine." the guy/girl could have ended up with no usable indoor pics and a very unhappy sister. a521 - I am glad that you are here to stick up for us newbs but it's also good to have Mr. Blunts. I don't think that keystone came out any the worse for wear but did have some food for thought and, if determined, has a year to work it out.Talk about damning with faint praise. You said it right there - why should anyone, at whatever their skill level, be lambasted when they come around asking for help? If someone's been asked to cover a wedding, there's a reason for it. And it's not to steal the bread from the poor professional WP's children. If they know enough about their limitations to be asking for help (and don't assume they didn't try to get out of it; maybe they're the only viable option for the couple), they deserve the help and courtesy they're asking for, not a "fuggeddabadit".

Replacing honesty with politeness is in nobodys best interest.
MikeYou can be polite and honest. If you're not prepared to be polite, please reconsider whether what you want to say is as important as you may think it is.

Unfortunately, the actions of a few wedding photographers have earned wedding photographers in general, and this area of POTN, a reputation. If you don't like it, it's in your best interest to act to clean up that image. If you consider it demeaning that people can fear being "banned" to the Wedding Forum, consider what has led to it gaining a reputation, however limited, as an outer circle of Hell; then see what you can do to combat that image.

If nothing else, look on it as customer relations. A beginner who gets flamed roundly in here certainly isn't going to remember anyone here, whether active flamers or not, favorably the next time they try to refer a bride and groom to a pro rather than try to do the job themselves. Wouldn't you rather have them saying "____ is an easy person to work with - why don't you ask him/her?", not "I really don't feel up to it, but all the wedding photographers I know of are so rude, nasty and egocentric that I will since you don't need any more stress." And make no mistake about it, it only takes a few rude and brutal people to sour someone on a whole class.

[ToddziLLa]

I understand where this is coming from and can see how we've developed the reputation we have (which is news to me).

However...

Wedding photography is a completely different beast. You've heard it all before, but you really do have one time to capture the most important day of our client's lives. If you mess something up, that's it. No re-dos. No setting up the shot again. Nothing.

Overall, I feel everything is done in an encouraging manner here. To outsiders, some of the comments may seem harsh. A comment like "Hey, don't do that again" is so we won't do it again on our next outing and possibly ruin the shot for yet another client.

But again, I can definitely see how/why this is posted. Just some thoughts.

[Sp00ks]

If nothing else, look on it as customer relations. A beginner who gets flamed roundly in here certainly isn't going to remember anyone here, whether active flamers or not, favorably the next time they try to refer a bride and groom to a pro rather than try to do the job themselves. Wouldn't you rather have them saying "____ is an easy person to work with - why don't you ask him/her?", not "I really don't feel up to it, but all the wedding photographers I know of are so rude, nasty and egocentric that I will since you don't need any more stress." And make no mistake about it, it only takes a few rude and brutal people to sour someone on a whole class.

I'll back you up on this statement Jon. I have referred the 5 or so requests to shoot weddings to the "few" wedding photographers I have met here that are in my area and were helpful and supportive over the years.

I don't know why I got involved in this thread. I have the utmost respect for the responsibility you guys hold while shooting weddings. I wouldn't do it. Jon makes a some really good points.

[kona77]

I'm not sure I agree with the premise that a rude answer is better than no answer at all. Tough love might be a valid approach with incorrigible children, but not for a fellow photographer looking for assistance or advice.

I do not think a rude answer is necessary when an person is asking for honest advice. Tough love may be in the context of an honest answer to a question without a rude or sacrastic tone.

If someone does not want to hear the answer then do not ask the question.

I have found that 98% of the time the answers that I receive have been professional and full of valuable information. If a pro is going to critique a photo as requested by the OP then the OP should accept the answer as long as it is not rude or obnixous. If we do not have experience shooting a wedding then why do we ask for advice then argue with the pro about his comments? I think a good critique response for a requested opinion of a
photo will contain not just comments but constructive advice on how to solve a bad shooting problem or less than average photo result.

Someone recently asked for comments on a wedding. I stepped up and posted a comment pointing out minor issues. The OP then argued about my critique instead of asking me to back up my comment. Before it got into a P*****g contest I just let it go.

If we post photos hoping for comments to improve our shooting then we need to understand that when pro provides constructive comments they have probably solved or overcome many hurdles that the new person is likely to encounter. We can learn from others mistakes thus saving us money and aggravation. There is no reason to reinvent the wheel, just listen and learn.

Did a comment or critique get under your skin? Then ask the poster for clarification without confrontation.

[Robert16]

"Talk about damning with faint praise. You said it right there"
?? Please explain what you mean.

[picturecrazy]

Just in case you missed it, the reality is that the Wedding Forum, fairly or not, has earned the reputation among many members of the forum of being a somewhat unfriendly place. Maureen and the other moderators intend to change that. People should not have to feel the least bit of trepidation in asking a question here any more than any of the other POTN forums Hopefully you will all help instead of becoming defensive.

Just about everyone is doing what they can to make it a friendly and very educational place. Of course I want to help, but I'm also going to defend myself and others too who have been hard working at helping others.

...
Unfortunately, the actions of a few wedding photographers have earned wedding photographers in general, and this area of POTN, a reputation. If you don't like it, it's in your best interest to act to clean up that image. If you consider it demeaning that people can fear being "banned" to the Wedding Forum, consider what has led to it gaining a reputation, however limited, as an outer circle of Hell; then see what you can do to combat that image.

This is the part that absolutely ticks me off. Yes, sure, maybe we have a reputation. Fine.

But you say you want us to COMBAT that image of being the outer circle of hell? Meanwhile, many many many members who have NEVER EVEN ENTERED the wedding forum now think of us as the outer circle of hell because of the popularity of the banishment threads... which were spawned by the actions of the MODS.

You are shooting yourselves in the foot here... AND making our job much more difficult in cleaning up the reputation of the wedding forum. You want us to change the rep for the better but at the same time you are spreading the word that it's a terrible place.


sorry man, I love the wedding forum and want to do anything to help but I'm a NOT gonna sit down and not defend myself and the others who have worked so hard to make the wedding forum a better place.

That has ticked me off WAY more than any of the tough love I've received here.

[zacker]

Thank You Maureen.... I have seen it comming a long time now.

I understand this board spans quite a few countries but rude is rude... we cant all be "rock stars" of Photography.. (heck, I remember when only goobers and Geeks used cameras) so lay off the wise cracks please or I will hhunt you down and use one of the many, many pens in my pocket protector and write a dirty word next to your name!!!!

lol.
Thanks Maureen!

[Solaria]

I've hesitated on chiming in, but I feel the need interject my own thoughts on this subject.

Have any of you ever gone to an established professional in your area, in person and posed the same questions? How about any questions at all? I much prefer the "attitude", feedback and dare I say it, feeling of community on this forum to anything I might possibly encounter in a real world studio setting.

I had an experience once, where I applied to work as a second/third shooter or assistant for a major photography studio here in my area, and was "lambasted" in person. I gotta tell you.. it's a lot gentler coming from here; also, there are more people here willing to take the time to say something. And yes, I believe something is better than nothing at all, even at the risk of bruised egos, hurt feelings and the like... As for rudeness, I'm not sure I've seen much of that. If it's a problematic issue, it's not something I've noticed, or it's something that has seemed trivial enough for me to overlook. I've also not seen a whole lot of sugar coating as well, which isn't really warranted or appropriate (imo) on a forum like this. Think of it this way, is an unhappy client going to be sugar coating or worrying about your feelings should an issue or challenge arise?

As for "newbies", I would say that while encouragement is great, coddling is not. This is an industry, like any other. There is a whole spectrum of client types and budgets, and I think anyone that is really serious about shooting can find his or her place in the market.

That's one cent's worth.
I could go on about this all day long...
...but I'd rather not...:)

[kona77]

so lay off the wise cracks please or I will hhunt you down and use one of the many, many pens in my pocket protector and write a dirty word next to your name!!!!

lol.

WOW, I had to read it 3 times. I thought you misspelled a word.:)
We expect no less from you zacker.:lol:

[cosworth]

I've had people come here from film, new to digital - then come in here and tear me (and others) a new cornchute. I'm sure they done it to others I'm unaware of. I don't see them around much. They are hit and run posters, they join - then inflame and leave disgusted.

Protecting a profession from dilution is noble, but impeding natural progression of a profession is protectionist and for me, not healthy to innovation and healthy competition.

We're all adults here, we can play in the sandbox. Users that think this is apublic forum where they can do and say as they please are sadly mistaken, it's a privelidge - not a right. Play fair and if you get sent to the Principal's office, learn from it.

[belmondo]

sorry man, I love the wedding forum and want to do anything to help but I'm a NOT gonna sit down and not defend myself and the others who have worked so hard to make the wedding forum a better place.


Okay, Lloyd, your point is made and well-taken. On behalf of the other moderators and admins, I will apologize to you and any of the other Wedding Forum regulars for whatever humiliation you feel this has caused you personally and the Forum in general.

None of us are too big to admit our mistakes.

Hopefully, some of the WF participants who have helped create the current climate will look within themselves and try to be a little friendlier.

[canonpink]

Not sure I understand.

[picturecrazy]

Okay, Lloyd, your point is made and well-taken. On behalf of the other moderators and admins, I will apologize to you and any of the other Wedding Forum regulars for whatever humiliation you feel this has caused you personally and the Forum in general.

None of us are too big to admit our mistakes.

Hopefully, some of the WF participants who have helped create the current climate will look within themselves and try to be a little friendlier.

Thank you. I, and others I'm sure, really appreciate that, and I'm sure we'll all continue to do our best to make the WF a great place to be, to both learn from and to teach in. I've learned so much from here...

We all have our different personalities. Nothing is ever perfect but I think we all want the same thing and have the same goals.

[Croasdail]

You know, I have to admit I have recently found it hard not to snap back at people who put comments in just to incite.... I am sure old enough to know better. Thanks for the reminder to play nice.

[Jon]

"Talk about damning with faint praise. You said it right there"
?? Please explain what you mean.Read the parts of your quote that I highlighted in red. "some good advice in among all the other stuff" certainly implies that you recognized that "the other stuff" predominated. "I don't think it is the worse[sic] I've seen" - the thread which was being used as an example isn't the worst the WF has had to offer.

[Jon]

I've hesitated on chiming in, but I feel the need interject my own thoughts on this subject.

Have any of you ever gone to an established professional in your area, in person and posed the same questions? How about any questions at all? I much prefer the "attitude", feedback and dare I say it, feeling of community on this forum to anything I might possibly encounter in a real world studio setting.

I had an experience once, where I applied to work as a second/third shooter or assistant for a major photography studio here in my area, and was "lambasted" in person. I gotta tell you.. it's a lot gentler coming from here; also, there are more people here willing to take the time to say something. And yes, I believe something is better than nothing at all, even at the risk of bruised egos, hurt feelings and the like... As for rudeness, I'm not sure I've seen much of that. If it's a problematic issue, it's not something I've noticed, or it's something that has seemed trivial enough for me to overlook. I've also not seen a whole lot of sugar coating as well, which isn't really warranted or appropriate (imo) on a forum like this. Think of it this way, is an unhappy client going to be sugar coating or worrying about your feelings should an issue or challenge arise?

As for "newbies", I would say that while encouragement is great, coddling is not. This is an industry, like any other. There is a whole spectrum of client types and budgets, and I think anyone that is really serious about shooting can find his or her place in the market.

That's one cent's worth.
I could go on about this all day long...
...but I'd rather not...:)Not the best analogy. People come here, presumably, because they're ready to provide, as well as ask for, help. Did you "cold call" the pro you wanted to be a second shooter for, or were you responding to an advertisement for an assistant? And, remember, if you work for him, he's selling your work as fully up to his standards. If you ask for advice, the respondent here is not pinning his reputation on the quality of your work. There's a significant difference, even if lambasting you rather than simply saying, "No, thank you" was over the top. People are getting lambasted here when they aren't asking to be second shooters, but only for advice, freely given.

[sblais]

Which ones of the mods should I PM to lock/delete this thread? From what I can see, it's bringing more of a mods-vs-wedding-forum-members competition/argument than it's helping to fix anything.

Stirring up the pot with threads like these has offended regular contributors and, I believe, won't reach those actually contributing to the problem. It has been said a few times (by mods) that mods receive a lot of complaints via PM originating from posts in the wedding forum. What has been done about these complaints? Why are the individuals showing a lack of savoir-vivre still post the same way as before (if they were not, then there is no point to this thread)? While I understand that this represents a lot of work from the mod population, I believe it's still your responsibility to act appropriately to correct such big problems. And by "acting appropriately", I mean by intervening where the problems are and PMing/responding to individual comments that have been flagged as inappropriate rather than by starting threads that end up insulting the population in general, even if the original intention was good.

[Croasdail]

Check out the post by "whatgoesaround" just posted in this thread....

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=375579

You just have to love people who show off their education like this..... but the good news... I didn't respond to him, at least not directly.

Insulted by being asked to be nice... dang. Who would have thought that would be offensive.

[Skrim17]

A moderator started the thread, I would assume you could deal with her.

[00silvergt]

I have a question about this whole issue all together. Why is it isolated to the Wedding Forum? Are Wedding Photographers that emotional? Is there a threat to one's business to honestly help another budding photographer out? Especially, here on the Internet where most photographers are of some considerable distance from each other and may not effect each others market. I guess what I'm saying is, why do you need to make a general post to inform your constituents to act like professional adults? Is there a "special" group with wedding photographers? I've shot weddings as a videographer before and I've always made it a point to get to know the photographer, be nice and courteous to them. Every photographer I've met always reciprocated. So why would any of you guys be different?

[Robert16]

Thank you for the clarification Jon

[Solaria]

Did you "cold call" the pro you wanted to be a second shooter for, or were you responding to an advertisement for an assistant?

I answered an ad in the paper. I was told on the phone that "no wedding shooting experience was necessary", that all training would be done by staff (surprising yes, but why not persue such an offer?). I was told otherwise in person. I was asked what gear I owned. I was honest. I got the eyeroll.

I've since moved on to working for myself, being honest with my clientele, and renting any gear that I might need (including back up equipment) and I seem to be doing just fine. I've had rave reviews from my clients, who are, the bottom line -- the most important element in any business.

It is an important analogy because online there's not only a certain feeling of anonymity but there's a much friendlier aspect as well, or so it has been in my own experience. Even the "rudest" (so called) comments on here, are much friendlier than those I've witnessed in person.

(there's my other cent...)

[Maureen Souza]

Honesty is not welcome in the wedding forum. Got it. All rainbows and unicorns from now on. I see a lot of "nice pics" posts in the future, which should be really helpful.

Really guys, is this necessary? I find most of the people who produce consistently professional work here are really helpful and generous with their time and expertise. You just gave them all a public slap on the wrist. Wouldn't it be much better to deal with the offender(s) individually than punish an entire group of (mostly innocent) bystanders?

Honestly, I love this forum for the opportunity to communicate at so many levels. Tough I don't have the guts to do it, I have a lot of respect for the folks that come right out and give honest critique on sub-par work. If this is a forum to learn about wedding photography, than folks should be prepared to get the honest truth about their work. While critique should almost always include ways that a photo should have been improved, sometimes even that's not possible.

And if you thing the 1 or two snippy comments every week here are bad, you guys should visit one of the pro wedding forums. This place is all warm and fuzzy compared to the places where a lot of pros hang out...

Also, it's this kind of generalized hand slap, as well as the occasional "banishment" of folks to the wedding forum that is going to cause the more professional members of this forum to go elsewhere.

Noboody is being slapped, Jamie. And not everyone posts here for critisizm. Some post just to share, some to learn, some to help others. A lot of us are not professional and don't claim to be. Personally, there are some Pros here who's work is not to my taste. I am not a fan of headless bodies, distance shots with unrecognizable faces and assorted "chopped" shots. But some folks love that stuff so I don't comment because I don't expect to like everyone's style. I don't expect everyone to like my style but I don't want to be slammed for it either.

I am not asking for people to be dishonest but if you have something to offer, say it in a way that the OP doesn't feel put down. I know my kindergarten grandson is learning the same lesson in school;)

I understand where this is coming from and can see how we've developed the reputation we have (which is news to me).

However...

Wedding photography is a completely different beast.


Only to some of you. Your photography is no more important than the landscape photographer's is to them. Or my personal family photos are to me. My grandson's first steps, first day at kindergarten etc. are MY cherished memories.

I've hesitated on chiming in, but I feel the need interject my own thoughts on this subject.


As for "newbies", I would say that while encouragement is great, coddling is not. This is an industry, like any other. There is a whole spectrum of client types and budgets, and I think anyone that is really serious about shooting can find his or her place in the market.


Helping new (or established photographers) is not coddling. Not everyone who shoots weddings is a professional. I have shot tons of them all for free. And no complaints yet. And I am not part of the industry.

I have a question about this whole issue all together. Why is it isolated to the Wedding Forum? Are Wedding Photographers that emotional? Is there a threat to one's business to honestly help another budding photographer out? Especially, here on the Internet where most photographers are of some considerable distance from each other and may not effect each others market. I guess what I'm saying is, why do you need to make a general post to inform your constituents to act like professional adults? Is there a "special" group with wedding photographers? I've shot weddings as a videographer before and I've always made it a point to get to know the photographer, be nice and courteous to them. Every photographer I've met always reciprocated. So why would any of you guys be different?
Because that is the group I chose to deal with based on a number of posts I have read here the past few days that were degrading, sarcastic or just plain put downs. Unfortunately, some of the members here still do not recognize themselves as being one of the culprits.

Look, I am not going to engage in an ongoing battle here. This "discussion" can drag on forever but the bottom line is that I simply asked all of you who post in the WF to make sure you participate politely, honestly and kindly. I don't know why you are having a hard time with that. I know most of you do a great job helping each other out. You are not the folks I am addressing. In the future, I will call on individuals that are having a problem with this.

I will leave this post open for a couple more hours, then I am going to lock it. If you have anything else you want to say to me after that, feel free to drop me a PM.

[00silvergt]

Thanks, Maureen, but I am not a Wedding Photographer and do not really go into this forum, except for a few posts that come up as interesting in the new posts, using my CP. I was just curious, since I had no idea this was going on. Again, I understand I may be a bit naive or geocentric but all the photographers I've met in the SF Bay Area, while shooting weddings have been professional and helpful.

[Solaria]

Helping new (or established photographers) is not coddling. Not everyone who shoots weddings is a professional. I have shot tons of them all for free. And no complaints yet. And I am not part of the industry.
.

Um.... I said "helping is great, coddling is not."
Not, "helping is coddling.."
There is a big difference.
I for one, appreciate all of the "help" I can get.
Howver, personally, I'm not one that needs my "help" sugar coated, or sweetened up... was the point I was trying to make.

I was just having this conversation with my supervisor today.
Isn't it funny how text based forms of communication can lead to all sorts of misunderstandings?
Maybe it's a good thing we have access to all of these smileys. :cool:

[Maureen Souza]

Um.... I said "helping is great, coddling is not."
Not, "helping is coddling.."
There is a big difference.
I for one, appreciate all of the "help" I can get.
Howver, personally, I'm not one that needs my "help" sugar coated, or sweetened up... was the point I was trying to make.

I was just having this conversation with my supervisor today.
Isn't it funny how text based forms of communication can lead to all sorts of misunderstandings?
Maybe it's a good thing we have access to all of these smileys. :cool:


Something tells me we'd all sound different if we were doing this in person.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Personally, I even think a little coddling can be comforting to those who are feeling frustrated and discouraged.:D:D

[00silvergt]

Um.... I said "helping is great, coddling is not."
Not, "helping is coddling.."
There is a big difference.
I for one, appreciate all of the "help" I can get.
Howver, personally, I'm not one that needs my "help" sugar coated, or sweetened up... was the point I was trying to make.

I was just having this conversation with my supervisor today.
Isn't it funny how text based forms of communication can lead to all sorts of misunderstandings?
Maybe it's a good thing we have access to all of these smileys. :cool:

I think the major cause is the failure to read things carefully, we seem to skim over everything and then post or email or whatever. I'm guilty of it, but I know when to say I'm wrong, rather than insist I was right!;)

[Solaria]

Something tells me we'd all sound different if we were doing this in person.

I couldn't agree more!! :D


Sorry for the misunderstanding. Personally, I even think a little coddling can be comforting to those who are feeling frustrated and discouraged.:D:D

Nah.. don't worry about it.
I sometimes forget that I'm not on programmer/web design boards. You guys think this is rough?! Pshaw.. this ain't nothin'.. lol..

And yes, you're right, encouragement can provide positive reinforcement for all concerned; I'm sure even the best of the very best have had less than stellar days...

[jamiewexler]

Unfortunately, some of the members here still do not recognize themselves as being one of the culprits.

And therein lies the problem in addressing the entire population of the wedding forum in the way you did today. A post like this certainly makes me feel like I must be one of the culprits. I think I'm being as helpful as I can; I think I am being a valuable contributor to a section of the forum. Then you post a blanket rebuke and I realize that maybe I'm an A-Hole and don't realize it. Of course there's also the distinct possibility that your post is not aimed at me, in which case you still made me feel like an A-Hole.

On the flip side of this conversation, there are the three or four offenders who this post is aimed at who may not feel that you are talking to them.

My point being, that by addressing the population at large and not the individual offenders you have made a lot of folks feel like they are doing something wrong, but may not have gotten your message across to the folks that are at fault. A PM to the offenders would have been a surefire way to make sure that the right people heard your message without offending a larger audience.

This same thing happened at another forum that I frequent. A few folks in one of the sub sections of the forum got out of hand. A great slap down came from above to the entire section. The most prolific posters in the section all got offended, left, and found somewhere else to play. 3 months later the powers that be posted "where has everyone gone"?


I know my kindergarten grandson is learning the same lesson in school;)

Again, I'll bet you said this with a smile, but how can I know? This is the written word, I have no reference to your tone of voice or your facial expression as you write this. Are you saying that your kindergarten grandson has better manners than me personally? Should I be thick skinned enough to laugh this off with you? Or is this a personal dig...should I contact a mod and say that someone in the wedding forum is calling me a kindergartener?

Maybe if I was/am an offender than a PM can help clear things up.

[JimAskew]

I just found this thread and read each and every post.

I posted the following comment in the "General Chat Fourm" in a thread about the POTN getting more rude in general.

"There are two kinds of criticism:

a) Constructive
b) Destructive"

Let me state upfront that I am a pro bono wedding and event photographer. I have posted my wedding photos here and for the most part I have been offered great advice and learned from the experience. I can honestly say that I have never been slammed here...often ignored but never slammed.

However, I have seen plenty of destructive criticism here some to point of being down right nasty. IMHO there is no call for that here or anywhere. I can "tell it like it is" with the best of them without being nasty. Most here can and do exactly this. However, there are folks here who take delight in slaming a "non pro" or newbe so as to add another notch on their keyboard.

I love the Wedding Forum and spend most of my POTN time here. I have 4 pro bono weddings lined up in the next few months and I suspect I'll have a couple more pretty soon. I come here to learn and that I have. I want to do better. I want to emulate those whose work here I admire.

I am no threat to pros...the folks I shoot for are either friends or are couples who would have no wedding photos at all but for me.

Although Maureen has struck a raw nerve in some, she is right in her observation that civility has suffered of late here.

So I say...thanks, Maureen for a difficult and thought provoking thread; and I also say...if the shoe fits then wear it.

[00silvergt]

Well said, to add:

CC points out the negatives but encourages to fix or suggests how to fix.
DC points out faults and sometimes, personal attacks.

Example:

"Nice Exposure, but work on your composition. Maybe if you framed the subject according to the Rule of Thirds?"

"And you charged money for this? How much they charge you for ruining their wedding?"

As a manager at work, I'm from the school of thought to point out the bad, but rebuild the employee to be more productive.

[Maureen Souza]

Jamie..... we can take this to PM if you like.

[-MasterChief-]

this thread has really got me thinking of whether or not ive offended anybody here in the past. i hope not. but if i have, then here's a blanket apology to whoever it is.

to me, when i post pics for C&C, i take ALL of it with a grain of salt -- whether its constructive or destructive -- and thank everybody for even replying (i think its worse if you post something and dont get anything at all!). even if the posted reply is rather rude -- i almost always never argue with anybody here. why should i stoop down to their level anyway? :p :D -- ok ok that was a joke! :D :D :D

[jamiewexler]

Jamie..... we can take this to PM if you like.

Only if I really need a spanking ;)...

[MALI]

....A PM to the offenders would have been a surefire way to make sure that the right people heard your message without offending a larger audience.....

Amen.

[Maureen Souza]

Amen.
If people choose to be offended, then maybe they ought to look at their behavior more closely. If only 2 or 3 posters were the culprits, I wouldn't have made this a broad spectrum request.
It's too bad that so many of you chose to buck up at this rather than let it apply where needed. In the future I will call people on the carpet publically if that's what you want.


No spanking required, Jamie. I was actually surprised that you were so offended by this post since you are usually a gentleman on this forum.

[linarms]

A timely and helpful reminder, thanks Maureen.

I know I have been one of the culprits in the past. Like others here, I've been trying hard to choose my words more carefully.

And FWIW, I haven't found this thread offensive at all.

[MCB]

...
However, I have seen plenty of destructive criticism here some to point of being down right nasty. IMHO there is no call for that here or anywhere. I can "tell it like it is" with the best of them without being nasty. Most here can and do exactly this. However, there are folks here who take delight in slaming a "non pro" or newbe so as to add another notch on their keyboard.
...


That's very true. But I think part of the problem lies with the newbie who is too sensitive. I'm a newbie for the most part, but I realize that whatever people say is just their opinion. If I post asking for advice and some other member honestly believes that my client should "leave it to the pros" then that's their opinion. I can choose to ignore that. If somebody sees my work and says "you charge money for that?" I wouldn't feel all that bad. If the client was happy, and I was satisfied that I did a good job, then the troll under the bridge isn't ruining my day.

That said, I think there is always a lot of good info in this forum. I know I have learned a lot, and will learn more in the future. This is due in part to the rude trolls that want to slam everyone else's work. I might think "what a jerk" but then just go out and try a little harder just to prove them wrong. Besides, it's just their opinion and they're probably a 12-year-old who doesn't even own a camera. ;) Don't take it so personally.

[Maureen Souza]

Thanks everyone. Keep posting, keep clicking and keep helping each other.

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