Night Flash Football

[dmwierz]

There have been numerous discussions on this board regarding shooting night football with flash. I thought I would post a few representative shots from last Friday night's games, and each of these show the good, the bad and the ugly. The good: bright colors and minimal shadows; the bad' some motion blur on some extremities; the ugly: some people don't like the brightness.

These aren't posted as an endorsement of shooting with flash. I have grown to appreciate that the benefits of shooting this way outweigh the negatives, and most of the shots presented here would enlarge nicely to almost any size. Each of these was shot at ISO 800, f/2.8 and 1/250s - the close-ups were shot with a 400 and a 580EX on a bracket mounted to my MkIIn, shot with +1 FEC under ETTL. The wider shots were with a 70-200 and an on-camera 420EX shot ETTL on a 20D (my second body and lens when shooting football).

I monitor the histograms and control the flash output by dialing up/down the FEC.

Some people absolutely hate the look of flashed football, and I understand this. I have a couple customers who require it, and I understand this also.

Talk amongst yourselves...

[dmwierz]

2 more...

[dmwierz]

And the last one...

Be advised the runner's eyes aren't showing "demon eyes" that can result from flash. He is actually looking to his far left - the direction he is cutting to, and you are seeing the whites of his eyes.

[ironbelle]

#5 catching the ball is nice! I was under the impression that you couldn't use a flash during a football game, but I guess I am wrong. I think you have not choice if you want good shots. at night since the stadium lights are pretty high up and the lighting itself is questionable.

[dmwierz]

#5 catching the ball is nice! I was under the impression that you couldn't use a flash during a football game, but I guess I am wrong. I think you have not choice if you want good shots. at night since the stadium lights are pretty high up and the lighting itself is questionable.

Yeah, this was the start of a 92 yard kick-off return, though you wouldn't know it from this shot.

Some people shoot night football ambient, and especially for newspapers, you can sometimes get away with this. The folks I sell to take these shots and make them into prints, up to an including poster size, and it's hard to imagine getting many captures that would be usable at these sizes without using a flash. Not impossible, mind you, just more difficult.

[hawk911]

Dennis, thanks for the tips. I'm going to try them again Friday.

[Sledhed]

Edit - When this thread first started I wasn't a big fan of flash for football (that's what the this post was originally about). Since using one for the entire 2008 season I have changed my mind.

[dmwierz]

Chris,

Don't get me wrong - I'm not espousing one way as being preferred over another. But I don't think flash should be rejected out of hand and a photographer needs to be receptive to using any tool at their disposal.

I spefically chose shots that show the plusses and minuses of using flash, yet all of these shots would be acceptable by most of the folks I work for.

Just as a point of comparison, look at the light under the helmet in the first shot I posted, and then look at the shadows under the helmet in the shot you posted. Your first shot is a good capture, but in both of the first two images I posted, the face is completely lit, and in this game, parents pay to see their kids' faces fully exposed, not hidden in the shadows.

I don't like the look of the players eyes in your last pic

Actually, all you're seeing there are the whites of his eyes - he's looking fully to his left. Flash can give bad "demon eye" but that's not what's happening here.

Another benefit of flash is that you get the action stoppage of the flash, which is a lot quicker than the shutter (at full power, the 580EX flashes at 1/830s), so for example, your kicker shot would have less blur on the football and kicking leg and the ball.

[stewy]

Dennis: thank you so much for sharing your photos and, more importantly, your techniques. I am struggling with the same problem and have recently acquired the 580ex to give it a try.

A couple of questions (remember I am new to the flash):
-how many frames per second are you able to get using the 580 with the settings you have outlined?
-Is it possible to use a slightly faster shutter speed and use the flash to compliment the stadium lighting rather than replace it?

I have been struggling to find "howto's" on the subject of sports photography using flash or ??? - is this something that can be done in other ways and, if so, what are your experiences ... I have been told that strobes are sometimes installed at facilities, especially basketball courts and I have been trying to figure out if there is a "poor man" solution that might be comparable.

Finally, what power solution(s) have you found work best for you with the 580ex?

Thanks again, Stewy

[Kiddo]

Great photos and thanks for the tips!! Football season is starting here and I"m gonna be doing a lot of night games with in the next few weeks!

[dmwierz]

Stewy,

You ask a few good questions, and I'll give you my thoughts one by one.

First of all, spend an evening on this site. It will be time well spent:

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/

Here is another GREAT spot for lighting info:

http://strobist.blogspot.com/

Now, onto your questions:

-how many frames per second are you able to get using the 580 with the settings you have outlined?


I use an external battery pack to power the 580EX, a Quantum Turbo 2x2, which allows me to get 2-3 fps. However, fps isn't all that important and, like shooting in the daylight, I don't recommend relying on it to get your shots. Timing the shots is still preferred. In fact, I set the cameras to the slower burst rate just so I don't "overshoot" the flash. With the external battery, it IS possible to fire the flash so frequently that you'll fry the flash head - I've seen this occur. Plus, if you set the flash to the highest burst speed, no flash can keep up with the camera, and you WILL miss shots.

-Is it possible to use a slightly faster shutter speed?

You can only sync up to 1/250s with the current generation of CMOS sensors (20D-40D, 1D MkII - 1D MkIIn - I hear the MKIII sync's at 1/300s but I haven't used one). The original CCD 1D sync's at 1/500s. So, to answer your question, unless you shift to HIgh Speed Sync (HSS) on the flash, things won't work well if you raise your shutter speed higher than the sync speed. You'll see lines across your images, and all manner of bad stuff will happen.

So, what is HSS? This is when your flash fires at a much higher speed - it actually fires a series of very high speed pulses rather than one continuous pulse. Because of this, and a few other factors, when you're in HSS mode, and running shutter speeds > 1/250s, you lose a LOT of range. See this explanation for more detail:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=208520

HSS can work OK, and I use it from time to time, but I tend to avoid it. It also lengthens recycle time for the flash, which cuts down on fps, and uses up power at a far greater rate, so your batteries won't last as long.

-Is it possible to use the flash to compliment the stadium lighting rather than replace it?

You might think this is a good idea, however it can cause more problems than it helps. The primary reason why you want your flash to be your dominant light source is that when you use flash, the duration of the flash burst is a lot shorter than the duration that the shutter is open. The flash duration of the 580EXx, at full power, is around 1/800s. As you reduce the power, the duration goes down considerably. In other words, the flash gets faster.

Why is this important? This faster duration does two things for you. One good, one not so good.

Firstly, the good: it can stop the action better than your shutter speed. You read that right - even though your shutter is set to 1/250s, you can actually get 1/800s (or faster if running at lower than full power) worth of effective action stopping.

Now the not so good: because when your flash fires when the shutter is open it exposes the sensor to its light. This is exactly what you want to happen, and why you use the flash. However, if the ambient light is close enough to the level of the flash, you run the very real risk of getting two exposures. Your sensor exposes once for the flash at, say 1/800s, and another exposure for the ambient at 1/250s. The result of this is a sharp image at 1/800s from the flash, and a slightly more blurry one at 1/250s, superimposed on each other. Not so good. You get a "ghost" image surrounding the sharp one - VERY annoying.

For this reason, I set my flash at least one stop higher than ambient, and if I see any ghosting in my images, I either up the Flash Exposure Compensation if I'm in ETTL mode, boost the power if I'm in manual, or dial down my exposure (dial down the ISO).

That's not to say you can't "finesse" mixing flash with ambient - just be aware that when you do this you might run into ghosting, and if you see it, you'll need to know how to deal with it.

Another good reason for having the flash be dominant is that you can avoid the funky white balance issues that come from the lights cycling in gyms (or even in stadiums). Here's a great discussion of light cycling:

http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=20873

As for shooting manual (flash and camera), a trick I learned from another shooter is to shoot a series of images at various exposures (keep the aperture and shutter speed constant and vary the ISO) until you can JUST see the players - they'll look like shadowy ghosts. Leave the camera at this setting, and then turn your flash on at maybe 1/8 power, and move it up from there until your histogram shows some info on the right half. Shooting manual flash and camera can yield optimal results, but you'll need to adjust the level of your flash as the distance to your subject changes.

I have been told that strobes are sometimes installed at facilities, especially basketball courts and I have been trying to figure out if there is a "poor man" solution that might be comparable.

Many pro and college arenas have strobes installed. These are VERY powerful and VERY expensive. Most of these are "permanent" and available only to team photogs, AP and Getty dudes and maybe SI, et. al. The rest of us are on our own.

Here are a few links with more info on this topic:

http://www.daveblackphotography.com/workshop/arena-lighting.htm

http://www.gophotography.net/tips/lighting.html

http://www.gophotography.net/tips/biglighting.html

A lot of us who shoot High School basketball and hockey will also install strobes temporarily (like White Lightnings or Alien Bees, for example) but even this isn't a "poor man's" solution, as it can cost a couple thousand bucks. I have had pretty good luck using my camera flashes mounted on flash stands, fired with Pocket Wizards (the most expensive part - these can be replaced with hard wiring, which is a LOT cheaper, but creates trip hazards) and found that this works remarkably well, and is very quick to set up and break down.

Check this out for starters:

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2006/04/on-assignment-prep-basketball.html

I have been struggling to find "howto's" on the subject of sports photography using flash or ??? - is this something that can be done in other ways and, if so, what are your experience

Hopefully the info above will help.

Finally, what power solution(s) have you found work best for you with the 580ex?


I've had good luck with the Quantum Turbo 2x2, but it's not cheap. I have used it to power my flashes and my camera bodies, as it has two output ports.

Others have reported good luck with the Black Box

http://www.aljacobs.com/THE%20BLACK%20BOX.htm

and the Dyna-Lite JackRabbit. The Canon Compact Battery Pack CP-E3 is another option for just under $150 that uses AA batteries.

Hopefully this will get you going and well on your way.

[hawk911]

Dennis, a wealth of imformation that I now have to digest, and understand. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[GBRandy]

Thanks Dennis for all the details....I enjoy all of your posts and learn a little each time.

[Anderson-Photography]

Thanks, Dennis. A very nice primer for shooting football with flash. Most of my shots are for newspaper use and with the ambient light available in our conference a flash is almost mandatory. As I've said before, the ambient light in the stadium of the team I cover at ISO 1600 and f2.8 is 1/60. Not too easy to work in those conditions. I recently started shooting at ISO 800 with my onboard 550EX and have adjusted the flash exposure using the guide of what hash mark the offense is on and I go from there. It's been working our pretty well but like you said, you don't get a winner everytime but I do collect many, many more usable images than throw aways. Also, thanks for the many links you posted. It will make for very interesting reading over the next couple of days.

Chris

[Redfish]

Dennis
looks like naperville north.....
You commented that you shot with a580ex FEC-1 and ETTL. In an earlier post you indicated you preferred M for flash mode. Do you prefer M or ETTL when flashing football.

I've got extremely poor HS lights here and used M last weekend - results were better than last year shooting ambient

Steve

[corythosaurus]

Dennis, another great post with loads of information.

Any complaints or comments on using the flash during the game from the coaches/refs/players?

[dmwierz]

Steve,

I've vacillated back and forth, but come out on the side of shooting ETTL : I shoot ETTL at FEC +1 (you wrote -1), 1/250s and ISO 800. I'll play around with the FEC if my results are funky or if I'm getting ghosting, and shift to manual only if I can't get ETTL to work.

BTW, how do you know about Them Huskies?

Cory, I've never had a HS player, coach or official comment on flash, and I've shot over 100 games at all levels, all the way through the State Finals. Now, I don't flash right in somebody's face, but this is discretion I would show any person on the street, not just an athlete.

[hawk911]

I've asked at the last 2 games, just to make sure and they look at me like- well of course, just don't get any in my eyes.

[MazerRakhm]

BTW, how do you know about Them Huskies?


Doesn't everyone know about Them Huskies? They're a good looking team this year! (I've yet to see them in person but will soon.)

Some good information Dennis, we should get it added to the sports tutorials and advice thread.

[stewy]

Dennis:

I cannot begin to thank you enough for this valuable information ... I will try to cram for this Friday's game!!!

Thank you so much,

Michael

[boomerakl]

Thanks Dennis,

I'm looking forward to my first twilight/night match this weekend, & I'm sure that the standard of lighting that we will have for the game will make life very interesting.

Thanks for the tips - now to go & use them!
Scott

[metalman1010]

Hey Dennis weren't those mosquitoes terrible!

:)

I attended this game with Dennis and got the exact same valuable pointers he's mentioned on here. I will be shooting my first game for Maxpreps next week so I was acting as a sponge during the game to get all the info I could about trying to do what Dennis does well.

For those of you that are worried about using flash, one of the main reasons I attended this game was to see what kind of affect it would have upon the players and action going on.

Unless you are getting right in the face of the players it's about as noticeable as the flashes coming from the P&S cameras in the stands. And that's not an understatement. I was completely blown away by that.

Ross

[MJPhotos24]

Yet to shoot a night game with flash, two day games with the big light in the sky were so much more tempting (here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=374833)). I usually don't like the look of flash photography because most people don't know how to do it, this is obviously an example of how to do it. I'll be using these tips in a couple weeks. The v-ball team I coach has 6 matches/tournies in 7 days so this weekend is a wash for me! Only thing that gets me is I always feel like I'm distracting people big time with that flash, even though I notice not many notice.

[MazerRakhm]

Hey Dennis weren't those mosquitoes terrible!

I've yet to go to a field in IL this year where the mosquitoes weren't swarming, it's horrible!

[dmwierz]

Well, the forecast for this coming Friday evening is for temps in the low 40's, so this should keep the Skeeters down at least. I'm absolutely COVERED in bites! If Ross hadn't borrowed some Off! from the nice ladies at the gate and a second application from the 'Zebras", it would have been even worse.

Yeah, to Mike's comment, after shooting the game I posted from here, I covered 5 youth games Saturday and a soccer game Sunday, all in bright sunlight - quite a contrast.

Knowing how to use flash is just another tool in your toolbox that you can drag out when needed and when allowed.

[Redfish]

Dennis
Thanks for the reply back - I keep an eye out for your threads and put into practice what you preach because I like your results. We've got a home game this friday and I'll try the ETTL at FEC+1 and compare. I think our lights are just a dozen flashlights tied to a poll.

as for the Huskies - I used to like in Aurora and they were tough NOT to follow. Gotta love big time HS football!!!

Steve

[dmwierz]

Something else to consider, if you're having AF issues - if you're using flash and running it at a fairly high level, like FEC+1, you can stop down your lens to f/3.2 or even f/4, thereby increasing your DOF. Since your background is pretty much blacked out at night anyway, you can sometime use the help with larger DOF's. Running under ETTL-II, your flash will adjust its level accordingly.

[hawk911]

Great stuff Dennis. Thanks

[Redfish]

More good advice - Thanks Dennis - that makes sense. As I look at the shots from last Friday - the backgrounds are indeed very dark

steve

[twoshadows]

Thanks, Dennis, for this great info. It's something that will keep me busy for a while.

[metalman1010]

hey Dennis one more question.

Which flash bracket did you use again and why?

Thanks,
Ross

[dmwierz]

Ross,

I have the StroboFrame Pro-T. Why? Because that's what Calumet had in stock the day I went in their store. Seriously.

It turns out to be a pretty good bracket and it's survived being run up and down the sidelines over and over again, which is more than I can say for my knees. It allows for relatively easy horizontal and vertical orientation changes and mounts to the camera, not the tripod, which I also find to be an advantage (because when I change lenses to shoot halftime, the flash comes with the camera, and doesn't stay with the 400).

(Thanks again to Kevin for this picture - I've gotten more mileage out of this one shot of me with my 120-300 and 20D, taken at the IHSA finals in 2005)

[Sledhed]

I think it's some great info too but I'm still not a fan of using the flash for football. Dennis, Kevin and I are all in the same area and there are some pretty dark HS fields. If I ever have to use the flash I will give credit where it is due, I hope to see you at few games this year.

[superdiver]

All GREAT shots, but I just dont like th look of the flash shots....

[bwolford]

Great primer here!!!

[dmwierz]

All GREAT shots, but I just dont like th look of the flash shots....

Yeah, not news to me. Like I said, not everybody likes "the look".

I have come to prefer shots like these (not that mine are all that great, mind you) to the dark shadows, dull, flat colors and funky white balances one gets without flash at the dungeons that are called stadiums around here.

It'll be real tough making poster size prints of shots taken without flash, and also good luck getting parents to buy shots of their kids with their faces buried under helmets.

I think we would ALL prefer shooting without flash, for many, many reasons. This is called shooting games during the day. The colors are truer, the fps are higher, the lighting is obviously better, etc..

Since the vast majority of High School games take place at night, photogs who cover HS football for a living who need to produce images for color reproduction really don't have much choice other than shooting with flash, at least IMHO.

No offense to Chris, as his shots are really quite good, but the colors don't pop, the player's eyes are hidden, and even the white balance is off - not through any fault of his - this is just what happens when you shoot at night without sufficient artificial light.

[Big Hands]

Excellent thread Dennis. I'd love to see this made into a 'sticky' or maybe we could have a resource page for similar sports shooting info. Thanks for preparing this and sharing it with us.

Regards,
Jeff

[MazerRakhm]

(Thanks again to Kevin for this picture - I've gotten more mileage out of this one shot of me with my 120-300 and 20D, taken at the IHSA finals in 2005)

:lol: :lol: You post that picture a lot! We might need to talk about per usage fee instead of the photo credit you keep giving me! :lol: :lol:

The funny thing is that I almost deleted it when you moved the camera into the picture! Or maybe I was trying to get a chimping shot...

[MazerRakhm]

Excellent thread Dennis. I'd love to see this made into a 'sticky' or maybe we could have a resource page for similar sports shooting info. Thanks for preparing this and sharing it with us.

Regards,
Jeff

Check out the sports tutorial advice thread! (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=135417)

Courtesy of Cadwell.

[IODebbie]

Dennis - what is the advantage of using the flash bracket for night football? I've got one and I shoot night football with flash, but I've never used the bracket. I might try it tomorrow night, but before I spend the time, I'd appreciate knowing what you think the advantages are.

Also, thanks for this thread! I started shooting high school varsity games last year and was hard pressed to find any information regarding the proper settings to use. Had I had this information then, I could have saved myself a lot of work!

[dmwierz]

Dennis - what is the advantage of using the flash bracket for night football? I've got one and I shoot night football with flash, but I've never used the bracket. I might try it tomorrow night, but before I spend the time, I'd appreciate knowing what you think the advantages are.

Also, thanks for this thread! I started shooting high school varsity games last year and was hard pressed to find any information regarding the proper settings to use. Had I had this information then, I could have saved myself a lot of work!

Debbie,

Getting vertical separation between the flash and the lens will reduce (but not always eliminate) red eye. Red eye isn't the worst thing in the World since it's pretty easy to fix, but if you can save yourself time in post processing, why not?

http://www.triz-journal.com/archives/2001/07/f/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-eye_effect

http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=12589

Using a bracket that keeps the flash centered over the lens is important in that having the flash off to the side makes really weird and unnatural-looking shadows.

Hope this helps.

Dennis

[Anderson-Photography]

Yeah, not news to me. Like I said, not everybody likes "the look".

I have come to prefer shots like these (not that mine are all that great, mind you) to the dark shadows, dull, flat colors and funky white balances one gets without flash at the dungeons that are called stadiums around here.

It'll be real tough making poster size prints of shots taken without flash, and also good luck getting parents to buy shots of their kids with their faces buried under helmets.

I think we would ALL prefer shooting without flash, for many, many reasons. This is called shooting games during the day. The colors are truer, the fps are higher, the lighting is obviously better, etc..

Since the vast majority of High School games take place at night, photogs who cover HS football for a living who need to produce images for color reproduction really don't have much choice other than shooting with flash, at least IMHO.

No offense to Chris, as his shots are really quite good, but the colors don't pop, the player's eyes are hidden, and even the white balance is off - not through any fault of his - this is just what happens when you shoot at night without sufficient artificial light.

+Dennis, as someone who has to cover Friday night football games for a newspaper I can't agree more. The first couple games of the year are great when the sun is still up but even at this time of the year by 7:15 it's getting pretty dark and I can get a decent image but faces are dark under helmets and that's a no-no to editors, and to parents buying the photos like you mention. I would of course much prefer to shoot in the day so colors pop and I can use high shutter sppeds but in high school football it's Friday night lights.

Thanks again.

Chris

[dmwierz]

Speaking of "Friday Night Lights", whatever happened to that TV show? Is it coming back this Fall? This was one of the only shows my entire family watched on a regular basis.

(How's THAT for a thread de-railer?)

Clear Eyes, Full Hearts, Can't Lose

From the online TV Guide:

Season 2 premieres Friday, Oct. 5, at 9pm/ET

Great, they put a show on about Friday night football on Friday nights, when the target audience is out watching Friday night football. What genius though of that? Thank goodness for TiVo!

[MazerRakhm]

Great, they put a show on about Friday night football on Friday nights, when the target audience is out watching Friday night football. What genius though of that? Thank goodness for TiVo!

That was our thoughts exactly! The whole family watches that show here.

[superdiver]

What really amazes me is how you got under the helmet and got their eyes! thats masterful!

[dmwierz]

What really amazes me is how you got under the helmet and got their eyes! thats masterful!

Diver - I shoot a lot from my knees whenever I can (especially when shooting younger kids, and especially when shooting from the back or sides of the end zone), although I'm not sure I was kneeling when these were shot.

I actually wear kneepads, which make quite a fashion statement, I must say.

[Anderson-Photography]

[quote=dmwierz;3921637]Diver - I shoot a lot from my knees whenever I can (especially when shooting younger kids, and especially when shooting from the back or sides of the end zone), although I'm not sure I was kneeling when these were shot.


I find that shooting from my knees is inversely proportional to my increasing age as I find it more and more difficult to get up or get out of the way!

[dmwierz]

[quote=dmwierz;3921637]Diver - I shoot a lot from my knees whenever I can (especially when shooting younger kids, and especially when shooting from the back or sides of the end zone), although I'm not sure I was kneeling when these were shot.


I find that shooting from my knees is inversely proportional to my increasing age as I find it more and more difficult to get up or get out of the way!

Oh yeah, there is that. After shooting the HS game last Friday, I shot 5 youth games Saturday (where it's even more important to shoot low), and you wanna believe I was one tired puppy by Sunday, where I covered a pro soccer event and got to sit on a folding stool most of the game!

This weekend will be more of the same! A good excuse for continuing that exercise regiment :), Chris!

[IODebbie]

That does help Dennis - thanks. I'll try it tonight and see what I get. :)

I shot our JV game yesterday afternoon and was quite pleased with my pictures. I'm getting back into the swing of it ... and none too soon. I get to shoot the USC/Washington game next weekend on the field and I'm a tad bit nervous.

[convergent]

Dennis, thanks for this thread... its very timely. I stink at action shooting with flash, and this helps. I'm torn between which shots I like better.. yours or the ones posted without flash. I do a lot of sports, and thus far have managed to miss football, other than a Giants/Jets scrimmage during summer camp. Tonight I will shoot my first night football. I wondered if you could add to the valuable info in this thread with a recommendation on lens selection...

My first thought was to go with the 400 f/2.8 and 70-200 on MkIII and MkIIN bodies respectively. I will probably shoot without flash, but will plan to try your tips here too, probably during the second half. I should have pretty free access to the sidelines and around the end zone, and was planning to shoot ahead of the line of scrimmage and then float back to the QB, and up behind the end zone when they get down to around the 20. I'm not sure about the focal lengths having no experience with football.

My other lens choices to replace the 400 would be either a 200 1.8 w/TC1.4 (essentially equal to a 300 f/2.8) or a Sigma 120-300 f/2.8 (I prefer one of the Canons). I'm torn between the 300 (200 + 1.4) and the 400. The 200 lets me drop back to f/2. if I wish and shoot closer. The 400 gives me the greater reach. When I shoot soccer, I'm usually running with a 1.4 on the 400 all the time... but that's a different game. I like to shoot very tight crops in portrait mode for most sports. I do have a flash bracket to use with the 400, and an external pack, but I will try ISO6400 first. :)

So which lenses? (and thanks for the great info in this thread)

[dmwierz]

Mike,

I like the Sigma 120-300, but to give you an idea of where my preferences are, it has remained in its case since I acquired my 400 f/2.8 IS earlier this year. The Canon is sharper, faster focusing, has better colors, and is longer, and I prefer to shoot tight over loose. Having said that, the zoom range of the Sigma is almost ideal for mid-range football action, and the performance is certainly adequate for most people's needs. However, it DOES hunt a bit in low light, so if I were you, I'd use the 400 for night work and save the Sigma for day time or if you don't want to be quite so tight.

I'm guessing your "free access" might not be totally free. Most States restrict non-team members to outside of the 25-25 player's box, but maybe you have special dispensation?

I also use a 70-200 f/2.8 on a second body and have found this is a good combination with the 400. If I had a third body I'd grab a wide angle like a 16-35 or something, as there are some jube shots where I wish I could go wider than 70 (I sometimes slap my EF-S 17-55 f/2.8 on my 20D for these occasions, but this requires forethought).

FWIW, while the 200 f/1.8 is a great lens, the DOF at even f/2.0 is really, really thin and makes focusing in the low light of football to be a little more challenging than I like. It certainly can and is done, though, but if you're gonna slap a 1.4XTC on it, I'd use the Sigma instead (or the 400, actually).

Good luck with the MkIII and ISO 6400. I've seen some amazing shots with this new rig, but even ISO 6400 won't get light under the helmets like most parents buy, so you may end up going with the flash anyway.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

Dennis

[convergent]

Thanks Dennis... your comments mirror my thoughts ... almost entirely, so its a good confirmation of my thinking. I will probably try the flash, but I've done pretty well without it for years, however football might be the thing that brings me to it. ;) I'm very comfortable with the 400 on monopod, and second body with 70-200, so I'll go with that. The added flash rig on the 400 might make it tricky though. Just to make sure I come home draggggging, I'll through the 20D around the neck too, but I think I'll just put the 24-85 on it. At 24mm, its f/3.5, and for an opportunity shot it might be just the ticket without adding a lot of baggage. The on camera flash would even probably work at that range making it a "just in case" type thing. I'm now just hoping it doesn't rain. :(

When I said free access, I'm going on what I was told without knowing any rules... so the "teller" may have been assuming I knew the rules. Even when I have total access in soccer, I steer clear of the benches because I don't want to be in anyone's way.

[hawk911]

I've got 2 friends on the coaching staff, so I may get some extra liberties others don't. I do try to stay on either end, not right in the middle. I can tell I should have a 300 or better, but the checkbook says differently right now.

[boomerakl]

Well, I shoot my first game in a few hours time - & even then it will be getting dark.

Thanks for the tips Dennis.

I'll see what I can come up with before deciding whether to post or not!

[IODebbie]

Just found out I can't use flash on the field for the USC game - hopefully the field will be well enough lit so it won't be a problem.

[hawk911]

so does everyone follow the ball, or follow a player or position? Ifigure if I follow the ball, that's where the play is. Is that good, or bad?

[dmwierz]

Just found out I can't use flash on the field for the USC game - hopefully the field will be well enough lit so it won't be a problem.

Debbie,

Flash is never allowed at NCAA or pro football games, but the fields are much better lit than HS.

I shot U of Miami last year and consistently got ISO 1250, f/2.8 and 1/640 ambient.

[convergent]

Well, I decided to go without flash. It was supposed to rain and I didn't want to have my flashes, brackets, and battery packs out in the rain. It didn't rain after all. The ISO6400 of the Mark III did me well. I'll post up some shots when I get to them. Thanks for the tips... I'll try flash next time.

[Anderson-Photography]

Some Friday night flash football from earlier tonight. After such as toasty summer it sure was cold out there tonight in the 45 degree weather.

[IODebbie]

Thanks for the settings Dennis - I will definitely keep those in mind!

[bluesoul]

Good posting Dennis, I always value your opinion quite highly. I took my first shots with a flash tonight and I've gotta say the difference is a vast improvement. My retention rate went up, and the white balance issues (which probably aren't issues but my flash shots and the other shots look very different) are easily corrected later in LR.

I'm a believer now, but I'm still moving up to a f/2.8 lens.

[hawk911]

Good posting Dennis, I always value your opinion quite highly. I took my first shots with a flash tonight and I've gotta say the difference is a vast improvement. My retention rate went up, and the white balance issues (which probably aren't issues but my flash shots and the other shots look very different) are easily corrected later in LR.

I'm a believer now, but I'm still moving up to a f/2.8 lens.

I have to say without flash, an f2.8 lens is a requirement unless you can shoot at ISO6400. I just don't know how you could stop the action well enough. I used flash last night, but forgot my stroboframe. I'll post later.

[boomerakl]

now that was an experience!!

As mentioned earlier, last night was my first night football shoot. The team that I was shooting for (UTS - in the white jersey) won the game, but I have still got very frustrated at the resulting photos.

Exif should still be intact. Most shots were at ISO3200 with a Sigma 500 Super flash on the camera.

The biggest issues I had were redeye (OK, I don't have a flash bracket yet), lack of light (lens 100-400 f4.5-5.6 L IS), & noise. The 40D performed well - certainly better than its user!

Any suggestions or comments are greatly appreciated.

http://www.scottbsgallery.com/wpimages/sIMG_0396.jpg

http://www.scottbsgallery.com/wpimages/sIMG_0484.jpg

http://www.scottbsgallery.com/wpimages/sIMG_0501.jpg

Next match is Saturday night!

[MDJAK]

Dennis, I could read your posts over and over again. Thank you very much for taking time to teach us, especially me.

I shot a night game last night. I could not imagine doing it without flash.

Question: When a flash is attached, another exposure meter appears on the right of the viewfinder. Is it important that the indicator be at or near the middle, as in a normal shot without flash? It seems to me that it needs to be completely ignored. The only way I can get it near the middle it to lower the shutter speed to like 1/60.

My shots almost never look as crisp, clear and sharp as yours. Can you please come to New York and teach me personally? ;)
thanks again.
mark

[calicokat]

And the last one...

Be advised the runner's eyes aren't showing "demon eyes" that can result from flash. He is actually looking to his far left - the direction he is cutting to, and you are seeing the whites of his eyes.

These shots are amazing, I too use flash for my night shots. One quick question, what do you find to be the best way to avoid the "demon eyes" But I agree 100% about the use of flash, it makes the photos pop and the lower ISO is great for enlargements.

http://calicokat.smugmug.com/photos/111913850-M.jpg

[bigvinnysd]

These shots are amazing, I too use flash for my night shots. One quick question, what do you find to be the best way to avoid the "demon eyes" But I agree 100% about the use of flash, it makes the photos pop and the lower ISO is great for enlargements.

http://calicokat.smugmug.com/photos/111913850-M.jpg
Is this from the Canyon-St. Bonnie game? Who won?

[britt777]

What are thoughts on using a 70-200mm with 1.4 TC and 580 flash?

[dmwierz]

Brittany, the TC will slow down the AF a bit, and make f/4 your widest aperture, so you might find this limiting.

These shots are amazing, I too use flash for my night shots. One quick question, what do you find to be the best way to avoid the "demon eyes" But I agree 100% about the use of flash, it makes the photos pop and the lower ISO is great for enlargements.


The best way to avoid demon eyes is to use a flash bracket, but you can't avoid it totally. I have found that often you'll get red eye (easy to fix) in one eye and demon eye in the other. When this happens, fix the red eye in the one eye, lasso it and copy it and paste it over the demon eye. Bob's your uncle! If you get double demon eyes, you're gonna have to fill in the pupil manually, but don't completely fill it in (need a "catch light") otherwise it'll look even weirder than demon eyes. Sometimes the eyes aren't fully demonized and you can use the "bucket" tool to fill them in rather than pixel by pixel.

Question: When a flash is attached, another exposure meter appears on the right of the viewfinder. Is it important that the indicator be at or near the middle, as in a normal shot without flash? It seems to me that it needs to be completely ignored. The only way I can get it near the middle it to lower the shutter speed to like 1/60.

You're interpreting the meter correctly, but you were correct: ignore it. Shoot in manual, and use your histogram to adjust exposure. Do NOT shoot at 1/60s or you'll get horrible shots. These cameras and their meters weren't really set up to handle something like night-time action with flash, so they kinda go bonkers trying to figure what the hey you're trying to do with the equipment.

so does everyone follow the ball, or follow a player or position? Ifigure if I follow the ball, that's where the play is. Is that good, or bad?

Yes. This is one of the hardest parts of shooting football - there are SO many players on the field at the same time, and they're REALLY big, and they fake very well, and they're pretty fast, and the ball gets lost among them, and you're down at field level, etc...This is one of those things you can only improve by shooting more. Sure, knowing the plays helps. Knowing the sport, and what is likely to be called can increase your odds of guessing where the ball is going, but for obvious reasons, there are many options both offensively and defensively.

Like most sports, though, if you are actually following the ball/puck/birdie/stone (OK, curling is a little easier to follow) this usually means you're gonna be late with all your shots and end up with a bunch of "almost" images. The trick to most sports photography is to anticipate where the ball is going, and be there when it gets there. This is never more important than during a pass play. If you wait for the ball to arrive to turn your camera to the right spot, your odds of getting the ball just settling into the receiver's hands in a classic capture are almost zero (not to mention actually getting this in focus and exposed properly).

Some of youse have heard me paraphrase The Great One, Wayne Gretzky (though this quote is more apocryphal than actual, it's worth using to make a point):

WG:“I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it is.”

Smart Photographer:"Aim your lens where the ball is going to be, not where it is."

Hope this helps. Tomorrow night is another game. Get out there and make some good pictures!

Dennis

[calicokat]

Is this from the Canyon-St. Bonnie game? Who won?

Thats Canyon/Royal from last years CIF playoff game. But I believe St. Bonnie beat Canyon this year

[ACDCROCKS]

i can't stand it when photogs use flash, it ruins my pics as well as others. My 2 cents.

[calicokat]

i can't stand it when photogs use flash, it ruins my pics as well as others. My 2 cents.

Some fields have such poor lighting that flash almost becomes necessary, you need 1/500th to stop motion at F/2.8, sometimes its not possible without flash, so if an editor needs a shot, you'd better produce something that is not blurred

[dmwierz]

i can't stand it when photogs use flash, it ruins my pics as well as others. My 2 cents.

OK, well, over the course of an entire season, I get "strobed" maybe 4 or 5 times, out of several thousand images, so you must be extraordinarily unlucky, as must the other shooters at your games, or maybe the atmospheric conditions are different in Ohio than they are where I've worked (Illinois and Florida), or maybe you have a LOT more people constantly firing off their flashes?

Getting your shutter to consistently and repeatedly open at exactly the same time as somebody else's flash is a pretty good trick, at least IMHO.

[MagicNikon]

repeatedly open at exactly the same time as somebody else's flash is a pretty good trick, at least IMHO.

That's a trick I'd like to know. Might save me on battery consumption :)

Sort of like drafting....with photons.

[jimbloomfield]

I shoot HS Night Football for one of the local schools.I use flash most of the times.
This year I switch to using the flash bracket upside down and with a Gary Fong Light Sphere on it. I like the results . The Light sphere appears to help alot. the link to my website is included.Saugus Football is the team I shoot for.

http://www.jimbloomfield.com/

[kemfam]

Are you shooting one shot or AI Servo? If the player is comming towards you, how do you have a pre-flash with ETTL in AI Servo? I shoot in AIServo HSS and FEC + 1 or 2 with a MKIII and 580 EXII.

[mudbug46]

I'm a long time sports photog for local newspaper and I don't use flash. I shoot a Canon Mark III at 3200 ISO at 350 to 500 a sec SS. I shoot all in raw and clean with Bipple Pro. Not saying my way is the best but won't use flash regardless of the situation for action. Long story behind it with yelling coach and missed endzone catch for playoffs bound team. Canon 70-200 2.8 on main camera and 300 2.8 on Mark II N with monopod for other. Hope this helps. Real life samples on website.

[Sauk]

I'm a long time sports photog for local newspaper and I don't use flash. I shoot a Canon Mark III at 3200 ISO at 350 to 500 a sec SS. I shoot all in raw and clean with Bipple Pro. Not saying my way is the best but won't use flash regardless of the situation for action. Long story behind it with yelling coach and missed endzone catch for playoffs bound team. Canon 70-200 2.8 on main camera and 300 2.8 on Mark II N with monopod for other. Hope this helps. Real life samples on website.

if that coach actually thought that caused it then he should be fired :D

[kemfam]

Is ETTL used with One or AI Servo with flash at Night HS Games. I have been using Ai Servo and HSS with A MKIII and 580EXII

[Gatorboy]

You want to use AI-Servo for sure -- now HSS is a topic that is debatable.

[kemfam]

Are you shooting one shot or AI Servo? If the player is comming towards you, how do you have a pre-flash with ETTL in AI Servo? I shoot in AIServo HSS and FEC + 1 or 2 with a MKIII and 580 EXII.

[kemfam]

If the player is comming towards you, how do you have a pre-flash with ETTL in AI Servo? I shoot in AI-Servo HSS and FEC + 1 or 2 with a MKIII and 580 EXII.

[mestes]

You're interpreting the meter correctly, but you were correct: ignore it. Shoot in manual, and use your histogram to adjust exposure. Do NOT shoot at 1/60s or you'll get horrible shots. These cameras and their meters weren't really set up to handle something like night-time action with flash, so they kinda go bonkers trying to figure what the hey you're trying to do with the equipment.



Any chance you could show what you say is a good histogram under night conditions with flash? Curious to see what that should look like. Then setting up in any night time situation would be achievable.

[IODebbie]

This year I switch to using the flash bracket upside down and with a Gary Fong Light Sphere on it. I like the results . The Light sphere appears to help alot.

Do you use the yellow or white LightSphere? If white, the clear or the opaque one?

[bobbyz]

subscribing.

[Sauk]

ahhh football is quickly approaching :) Can't wait!

[TheSportsGuy]

Football practice for high school starts this week in NC.

I can't wait, this will be my first time using my 70-200 f/2.8 for football. It will be a big difference from using the 100 f/2 and 24-70 f/2.8.

[Elaine M]

next week too... and have two-a-days this week. I went by afterwork hoping to squeeze in a few shots but ended up on watergirl detail! The only shot of the day was when one of my kids picked up the camera to get shot of me filling water bottles - that one ain't getting posted NO WHERE!! :o

I just read through this entire thread trying to figure how in the heck everyone was getting night shots already when we're still a month away .... I was up to about page 4 and the 40 degree nights before I figured out the thread was reincarnated from last year! :o:D:o Glad it was though ... some good stuff here.

That reminds me... I need to dig up that old thread with flash mounted on the monopod under the camera. I was planning on having one of those rigged up the season started ... I got some work to do. ;)

[Paul S]

ahhh football is quickly approaching :) Can't wait!

First time in my life I feel summer is to long. I find shooting games a 90 to 100 deg weather with 90% humidity w bugs dosent do anything for me :rolleyes:
Another 40 Days and should be back in business.

Is some one gettng a new lens for football ?

[Zivnuska]

First time in my life I feel summer is to long. I find shooting games a 90 to 100 deg weather with 90% humidity w bugs dosent do anything for me :rolleyes:
Another 40 Days and should be back in business.

Is some one gettng a new lens for football ?

Just got the canon 300mm f/2.8 and I can't wait for football. [Dang that is a sharp lens] Each night I say 1 Our Father, and 2 Hail Marys that Dennis will do a 'How To' football podcast before September.;););)

My best friend and photography mentor is coming to Wichita,KS to help me shoot our (Valley Center) High School Football opener Sept 5 and then 1 month later I go to Eau Claire, WI (my alma mater) to shoot with him at the University Homecoming. Great Fun.

[mestes]

Any chance someone could show what you say is a good histogram under night conditions with flash? Curious to see what that should look like. Then setting up in any night time situation would be achievable.

[dmwierz]

Any chance someone could show what you say is a good histogram under night conditions with flash? Curious to see what that should look like. Then setting up in any night time situation would be achievable.

Wow, this thread has legs...

To answer your question, here's the histogram of the first shot from this thread (from Photo Mechanic and Photoshop, respectively), repeated here:

http://www.pbase.com/dmwierz45/image/85395798.jpg

As you can see, there's very little information on the right half of the histogram, due mostly to the black sky in the background. If you tried to "balance" this histogram to get some data in the shadow region, you'd end up WAY overexposing the player.

Make sense?

[Gatorboy]

This year I switch to using the flash bracket upside down and with a Gary Fong Light Sphere on it. I like the results . The Light sphere appears to help alot.

What are you bouncing off -- the clouds? The lightsphere outdoors is doing nothing but causing your flash to pump more power, depleting your batteries much faster.

This is my setup:
Night Football with Flash (http://www.davehoffmannphoto.com/imageEngineer/2008/07/night-football-with-flash/)

[dmwierz]

What are you bouncing off -- the clouds? The lightsphere outdoors is doing nothing but causing your flash to pump more power, depleting your batteries much faster.

This is my setup:
Night Football with Flash (http://www.davehoffmannphoto.com/imageEngineer/2008/07/night-football-with-flash/)

Yeah, I thought the same thing when this was orignially posted. FWIW, IMO, there is absolutely no reason to use a flash modifier when shooting night football. I occasionally see people using the Omnibounce (or should I say MIS-using) and this is just odd. The Omnibounce works by combing direct flash (light coming from the flash pointed up at 45 degrees and from the side of the Omnibounce) and bounced flash (light being projected up and off the ceiling/walls), giving a softer look. However, when I've seen it used, peeps put it on their flash head and point it forward. Now, if they think they are making the light "softer", they're not since they aren't changing the size of the flash surface Vs. the subject. They may also think they're reducing the chances of their flash distracting the players. Well, all you're doing is muting the flash, which can be more effectively done by just dialing down the flash power (and your batteries will last longer, as Gatorboy correctly pointed out).

Now, using the Lightsphere to shoot night football outside makes me ask the question: "What were you hoping to accomplish?". I'd really like to know.

[Mike R]

What are you bouncing off -- the clouds? The lightsphere outdoors is doing nothing but causing your flash to pump more power, depleting your batteries much faster.

This is my setup:
Night Football with Flash (http://www.davehoffmannphoto.com/imageEngineer/2008/07/night-football-with-flash/)

Thanks for posting your set up, I was tired of fixing eyes and was going to use a bracket this coming season. Now I may get a monopod and use your set up.

[Sauk]

yeah I used that monpod setup last season. Nice and cheap. Your still going to get red eye and demon eye, just not as bad.

I am going to go with a real bracket this year though.

[dmwierz]

Just got the canon 300mm f/2.8 and I can't wait for football. [Dang that is a sharp lens] Each night I say 1 Our Father, and 2 Hail Marys that Dennis will do a 'How To' football podcast before September.;););)

My best friend and photography mentor is coming to Wichita,KS to help me shoot our (Valley Center) High School Football opener Sept 5 and then 1 month later I go to Eau Claire, WI (my alma mater) to shoot with him at the University Homecoming. Great Fun.

Phil,

Well, now you're invoking a higher power, saying Our Fathers and Hail Mary's and all. I'll see what i can come up with. I still 'owe' a baseball podcast...just been SO busy, and started a new job this month.

[Paul S]

yeah I used that monpod setup last season. Nice and cheap. Your still going to get red eye and demon eye, just not as bad.

I am going to go with a real bracket this year though.

Matt, I picked up one of these and they work great
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/546356-REG/Bogen_Manfrotto_035RL_035RL_Super_Clamp_with.html

[dmwierz]

The Super Clamp works well for under camera flash. The advantage of this Vs. an over camera bracket is you don't have to flip it when you go from vertical to horizontal and back. The down side is the shadows look a little odd, since we humans are used to shadows going down, not up.

Here's what I really want to get (when my $80 Stroboframe [http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/69327-REG/Stroboframe_310_800_Pro_T_Flash_Bracket.html] breaks, that is):

http://www.justritebracket.com/Products.html

[Zivnuska]

What are you bouncing off -- the clouds? The lightsphere outdoors is doing nothing but causing your flash to pump more power, depleting your batteries much faster.

This is my setup:
Night Football with Flash (http://www.davehoffmannphoto.com/imageEngineer/2008/07/night-football-with-flash/)

Quote from your link: I shoot football with my Sigma 120-300 f/2.8 DG at ISO 1600; f/3.5; 1/250 with the flash on E-TTL -2/3. In doing this, the ghost-eyes are eliminated completely, and red-eye will only be seen in a small percentage of shots.

My question: Why the flash at E-TTL -2/3 ? Wouldn't you want to go with a + setting to use the flash to overpower ambient? I don't doubt your technique works, I'm just trying to understand.

[dmwierz]

Quote from your link: I shoot football with my Sigma 120-300 f/2.8 DG at ISO 1600; f/3.5; 1/250 with the flash on E-TTL -2/3. In doing this, the ghost-eyes are eliminated completely, and red-eye will only be seen in a small percentage of shots.

My question: Why the flash at E-TTL -2/3 ? Wouldn't you want to go with a + setting to use the flash to overpower ambient? I don't doubt your technique works, I'm just trying to understand.

Phil's question is a legitimate one. If you employ -FEC you're gonna be on the edge of being very close to fill levels with your flash, and with dark fields, you'll also run the risk (or likelihood) of ghosting. As with many things (like even, perish the thought, HSS for action), it will work occasionally, but your results will be much more consistent getting your flash level 2 stops or more over ambient. Plus, flash at -2/3 FEC will not eliminate color cycling from the lights nor will it do anything about the funky white balance you often see when shooting night football. Also, your flash range will be greater with +FEC.

Ghost and red eyes are annoying, but they can be minimized using a bracket or putting your flash below your camera on your monopod. They can also be fixed in post processing. Color cycling and funky whie balance is much more difficult to work with in post and MUCH more time-consuming. Shooting 300+ images at a game, I'd prefer to reduce my post processing time, not increase it.

Get your flash levels high enough and your colors will pop, the faces will light up, you will control your white balance and eliminate any impact from the color of the stadium lights.

[Gatorboy]

My question: Why the flash at E-TTL -2/3 ? Wouldn't you want to go with a + setting to use the flash to overpower ambient? I don't doubt your technique works, I'm just trying to understand.

I don't want the flash to be the main light source. It's not easy to overpower ambient on a football field with one flash -- unlike how I do at a basketball game (with 2 or more flashes/strobes). I find using my settings, I'm not waiting forever before being able to fire another shot.

I suggest experimenting with your FEC -- and use what gives you the images you like.

[dmwierz]

I don't want the flash to be the main light source. It's not easy to overpower ambient on a football field with one flash -- unlike how I do at a basketball game (with 2 or more flashes/strobes). I find using my settings, I'm not waiting forever before being able to fire another shot.

I suggest experimenting with your FEC -- and use what gives you the images you like.

Dave, I understand your thinking, but unfortunately it's not technically advisable. In order for ETTL to function properly, it needs at least 2/3 of the light falling on the subject to be from the flash. You might ask "how do you do fill flash under ETTL?" and the answer is "Very unpredictably".

http://www.shootsmarter.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=175&acat=16

One of the best TTL tips we can ever give you is the proper ratio / relationship between the illumination value of the flash vs. the illumination of the ambient roomlight. This is crucial to gaining control over exposures with TTL. When you shoot in TTL flash mode, we strongly recommend using the MANUAL exposure mode on the camera, and TTL mode (any flavor is fine like ETTL2 or iTTL795...). But please realize that TTL mode means the camera is blending the TTL controlled flash with the roomlight in a rather delicate balancing act.
The ratio of the flash light to the roomlight is referred to as the "secret formula" for any of our recommended TTL cameras and flashes and is really simple to use and remember: use 2/3 flash + 1/3 roomlight (which is the same thing as keeping the flash 1 stop to 1 1/2 stops brighter than the room light) and TTL will work like a champ. It's that simple.
Those of you who have been to our live on-camera flash events across the US or have watched the TTL Flashfacts video on ShootSmarterTV (http://www.shootsmartertv.com/) know that the TTL flash process of taking a picture starts actually with the camera measuring the ambient light as soon as you press the shutter button. Then the camera obeys your settings on how you have chosen to control the ambient light with your ISO/shutter/Aperture/EV compensations settings, next it looks for info on how you want the flash to "look" (either greater than the roomlight or less than the roomlight) and after a few more steps (focusing and distance settings) it goes to work in adjusting the power of the flash to meet your camera settings that will ultimately combine the ambient + flash together to make one exposure.
Whew! That's a lotta work!
Fill Flash vs. Flash Dominant
If your flash is brighter than the ambient roomlight, then that is referred to as a "flash dominant" shot and this is where TTL works best. If the flash power is set so the ambient light brighter than your flash - that is referred to as "fill-flash" and TTL stinks at fill flash.
If you want to use TTL for fill flash - don't. : ) If you do, you will be forced to shoot color neg film (with GREAT results!) or will be forced to shoot in RAW mode and patch exposures later. Life is too short for that nonsense on most shots. So if you are looking for fill flash techniques, turn off the TTL and turn on AUTO or MANUAL flash exposure modes? Test it yourself and see.


Yeah, Will Crockett is talking about "room" light, but this is just another word for ambient, as your camera doesn't know if it's shooting in a room or outside.

Like I said, you can and probably will get acceptable results using your method but following the advice above (and yes, my advice) will produce a higher yield and much more consistent results as well as allowing you to shoot action at a greater distance. This is based on my personal experience shooting a couple hundred football games (most at night) as well as the experience of dozens of MaxPreps photographers and many other experienced HS football photographers.

When you need to submit 100+ top-grade images from a HS football game, you can't afford to have your method be only sporadic. It needs to yield a "keeper" for close to 50% of your shots.

[Foochey]

Dennis, I used to shoot strictly no-flash at HS football with my 10D, then 20D. This past year I shot using flash mounted under the camera and got pretty good results. But, I also used a -1 to -2 FEC and metered for ambient in M, but shot for fill with my 580. Generally the results were very good for two reasons: 1) Face was illuminated, and 2) if the flash didn't fire I still got a useable shot since I had metered for ambient anyway (so no black/dark frames). I usually shoot with WB set to AWB and am curious as to what you are using for your WB when using the +FEC approach. I am assuming either flashWB or AWB??

Also, I noticed in the placekicker shot that you shot at 1/250th which is usually right about where I shoot at ISO 1600 with a f/2.8 lense. But, the EXIF showed no flash fired. Do you know if you used a flash or not in that shot? Is the main problem that you encounter when shooting at a -FEC the WB?? What is your preferred method for setting your WB?

Btw, you need to check out Custom Brackets for your flash. The thing I love about this bracket is that I can move my flash higher if I need to when I have the 300 f/2.8 on there vs the 70-200. Awesome bracket, but just MTCW.

Thanks, your shots are superb.

-Steve Fouche
Dallas, GA

[Sledhed]

Also, I noticed in the placekicker shot that you shot at 1/250th which is usually right about where I shoot at ISO 1600 with a f/2.8 lense. But, the EXIF showed no flash fired. Do you know if you used a flash or not in that shot?

-Steve Fouche
Dallas, GA

Dennis didn't shoot that shot, I did and no flash was fired. I have done a complete 180 on the flash vs. no flash thing and am now a big supporter of the flash for football.

[Sauk]

Dennis didn't shoot that shot, I did and no flash was fired. I have done a complete 180 on the flash vs. no flash thing and am now a big supporter of the flash for football.


Wooohooooo :)

[Foochey]

Oops, well that would explain it. Great shot!

:razz:

[dmwierz]

so used a -1 to -2 FEC and metered for ambient in M, but shot for fill with my 580. Generally the results were very good for two reasons: 1) Face was illuminated, and 2) if the flash didn't fire I still got a useable shot since I had metered for ambient anyway (so no black/dark frames). I usually shoot with WB set to AWB and am curious as to what you are using for your WB when using the +FEC approach. I am assuming either flashWB or AWB??

Again, check out the definition of ghosting, and you'll see why this isn't normally a good idea (unless your ambient light is WAY bright). Plus, FEC is tied to a flash's TTL performance, and TTL only works correctly when flash is the dominant light source (like my earlier post explains).

Shooting fill flash also does nothing to overpower the light color cycling or weird white balances, but then again, I've already said this (and said this, and said this... )

In the end, you're obviously free to shoot any way you want - just be aware that, should you ever have to produce 100 or more "good to excellent images" from a night event, shooting with your flash in fill mode is worse than shooting ambient. If you think you're "getting flash under the helmet" you may be, but you're also messing with the ghosting demon and ghosted extremities or other fast moving things, and this cannot be fixed in post.

I shoot AWB for most things, even when I strobe an event. The only time I don't is when I'm shooting indoor action under ambient light - then I do a CWB with a gray/white card. Check out my podcast for lotsa info on all this.

[Foochey]

I will try shooting at a +1 FEC this Friday night in a scrimmage game and see how it works out. How do you normally set your initial exposure? I usually meter off the grass and open up a third or so depending on the background/jersey color/etc. Does increasing the FEC by a stop change your manual exposure?

Also, at what point do you usually begin shooting w/flash as the light falls off this time of year? Do you shoot w/flash even in daylight?

-Steve

[namasste]

I will try shooting at a +1 FEC this Friday night in a scrimmage game and see how it works out. How do you normally set your initial exposure? I usually meter off the grass and open up a third or so depending on the background/jersey color/etc. Does increasing the FEC by a stop change your manual exposure?

Also, at what point do you usually begin shooting w/flash as the light falls off this time of year? Do you shoot w/flash even in daylight?

-SteveGrass can be great to meter from (as is the palm of your hand). Without getting into a whole new discussion, you have to remember that you are still metering reflected light doing that and ideally a light meter would be the best bet and a good investment if you are doing much of this shooting. As for FEC, it will obviously impact how the image is exposed but I will usually try to get to where I am at least one stop under ambient (ideally closer to to two which is never much of a problem at a HS field!). Once I have that done, I'll add some FEC to the flash until I get the image bright enough. If its' too bright, I'll typically leave FEC as is and stop down a little and/or decrease ISO. I don't shoot much daytime flash for field sports as speedlites seem to have an impossible time overcoming ambient in blazing sun. As the sun sets, I'll start using flash as soon as I can get my ambient exposures around 1.5-2 stops under.

[dtfuzzy]

dmwirez so do you like ETTL or manuel flash better? I have tried ETTL and maneul (at up to +1 fec and worked around 1/4 power and .03/.07 power) and I'm having a hard time desiding what to use?

Dave

[dmwierz]

Dave,
I wish ETTL worked for this, and I know several excellent photographers who employ it successfully most every Friday Night, however ETTL (like most automatic settings) can and will be fooled - often producing unexpected results. I have found using manual is far more controllable, predictable and accurate.

[gasco88]

I have an old Digital Rebel 350 I think that my son shoots with. He's just learning so he has the 70-300 4.5 I have the good stuff 40D 70-200 2.8l i shoot manual he shoots with the 580EXII What should he be set at? We've tried ISO 800 F.4.5 1/250th does that sound about right. I now his equipment isn't the best but it works for him. Any suggestions?
Thanks ahead everyone.

[mestes]

Do others here manually zoom their flash unit if possible or let it auto adjust depending on lens focal length?

example me 580ex II can auto some the flash head or I can manually set it which would be better?

[Dan-o]

For football I just leave mine at 105.

[mestes]

hmm with it at 105 does that give you more light or just more reach of the light?

[Sauk]

I believe it just concentrates the light more down field instead of spreading it so yes it should give you more reach lol

You can see the difference by just going into a dark room and adjusting the zoom and flashing the wall while taking a image.

[bobbyz]

I tried 105 setting and it seem to work fine. This is with 300mm lens.

[dmwierz]

I tried 105 setting and it seem to work fine. This is with 300mm lens.

If I'm not mistaken, 105 is as tight as a 580EX will go.

[Dan-o]

Yes it is.

[Sauk]

I use the SB-900 and it goes to 200, but to honest I could not tell a lick of difference between 100 and 200.

[mestes]

I am shooting with a 70-200 f/2.8 would 105 be too much should i drop to maybe 80?

[Sauk]

to be honest you should be fine at 105. To me 80 to 200 looks the same , but that is JMHO :)

[mpeters]

I am shooting with a 70-200 f/2.8 would 105 be too much should i drop to maybe 80?

It might be if you were only shooting at 70 - on a full frame. Your gear shows you are shooting a 1.6 crop - so the focal equivelant at 70 mm is 112 - so no, 105 is not too long.

[PuR HART]

Dear God I have a lot to learn thanks all for your input.

[photographerinoregon]

i have the 580ex and i done some flash football last year when i was shooting for the semi pro football team and i got the ghosting eyes what should my settings be set on for this so number one i have a good exposed shot number two so i dont get the ghosting eyes? i havent used this flash that much but help would be appeciated. thank you

kevin

[Sauk]

Kevin,

You are always going to get ghosting or red eye, there is really nothing you can do to stop it. There are some things to help though.

Make sure you get at least a foot or more seperation between the lens and the flash. Make sure the flash is on the same plain as the lens.

Thats about it lol Some like the flash below the lens and some above the lens.

You will get less red eye below but MONSTER shadows, more red eye from above but no huge shadows behind the players.

You should start your settings somewhere around 1/250th F2.8 to F4 with your flash set at max distance and between 1/2th and 1/8th power. I normally settle for around 1/4th.

[mpeters]

Kevin,

Red eye is simply a geometry problem. Draw a line from the flash head to the back of the eyeball and then back to the center of the lens. If both legs of the angle pass through the pupil - you get red eye. If they don't, you won't. If the subject is close to you, has big pupils (night football) and is looking at the lens, you will get redeye. Change one of those factors (distance, pupil size and direction eye is pointed) and you won't.

The further the subject is from the body/lens - the shallower the angle and the more likely red eye is. The wider the angle (greater seperation between flash and lens) the less likely red eye is.

The red-eye reduction feature on cameras is simply a preflash which is intended to close down the pupil - thus making it harder for light to be reflected back.

I've heard a couple rules of thumb - 1 to 12 and 1 to 20 - for a "red-eye free" zone. That is for each 1 in. of separation, you get 12 to 20 inches (lens to subject) without redeye. So if you can get 2 feet of separation, you can get 24-40 ft from you without expecting redeye. Unfortunately, for football, that's not very far - you just have to hope they are looking somewhere other than at you.

Mounting the flash under the lens has a couple of advantages - 1) you can generally get more separation than mounting above the lens (unless you make your own bracket) - the mount on mine is 18 inches below the lens, plus I get another 4-5 inches from the height of the flash, 2) you get nice illumination underneath the face mask. As Matt notes, if you have a solid background (building, crowded stands), you can get freakish shadows.

[photographerinoregon]

the flash a foot from my lens how the heck do i do that i mount my 580ex on my camera is there a gadget i need to mount elsewhere? if someone could find me a good tutorial for me to read i have researched google and can find nothing that helps me it would be appreciated.

kevin

[photographerinoregon]

if i got a 135mm 1.8 that wouldnt be enough zoom would it espcially for the other side of the field but i can use my 100-400 f/4.5-5.6 the first half cause there is plenty of light then for that lens but would the 135 be ok i know i cant get shots across the field but on my half of the field would it work good then maybe i wouldnt have to use the flash

kevin

[mpeters]

You can buy any type of flash bracket (like what wedding photographers use) to get the flash above the lens. You will need an off camera shoe cord or PC cord (if using a vivitar 285 for example) or wireless triggers.

Going below the lens is cheap. You just need a 2 in. L corner bracket, two hose clamps and a 1/4 in x 1/2 in thumb screw from the hardware store.

http://www.mjpetersphoto.com/photos/193325152_XvxMc-L.jpg

[photographerinoregon]

wow looks like complicated and expensive setup is it?

kevin

[photographerinoregon]

if i do go with the flash beings i cant rent the 70-200mm canon 2.8 what settings should i have my flash on ettl or manual how do you figure you apeture is it same apeture that you are using on your camera or what please help i am going to shoot this sat may 16 so i need tips to try thi s game is just for practice its not my team im going to shoot that starts june 20 so iwant to get some testing done in between now and then. thank you just a reminder i have a canon 40d and flash is a 580ex. thank you

kevin

[mpeters]

Expensive? Once you have the flash, lens and body the rest is peanuts.

Off-shoe cord ~$50-$60
Battery pack - you don't need, but nice to have
Monopod - I paid less than $50.

Two hose clamps, 2in. L shaped shelf bracket and thumb screw - less than $5.

For settings - there are several posts in this thread that will give you that.

[Sauk]

Read my post or search my posts, I list my settings several times.

Thanks

[Dan-o]

Here is mine I think it is about 18" separation.

http://dmunson.smugmug.com/photos/414868275_QzdRF-XL.jpg

[Sauk]

football season is quickly approaching :)

If anyone has questions this is a good thread or ask away. Lots of great people on here willing to help our flashes out

[DDCSD]

Anyone ever tried to fashion an over and under set-up?

I'd be curious to see how it would work out.

[DDCSD]

football season is quickly approaching :)

If anyone has questions this is a good thread or ask away. Lots of great people on here willing to help our flashes out


And thanks for bringing this thread back to life!

[Sauk]

Np man. I have not tried it but people have done two below and cut the power in half for longer bursts.

[DDCSD]

Np man. I have not tried it but people have done two below and cut the power in half for longer bursts.

I'm more concerned with what it may do with the shadows.

I've got a pile of 540EZ's. I might have to rig something up.

Heck, maybe I should just get an ABR800 ringflash and strap one of my Vagabonds to my back. :lol:

[mpeters]

I've done the over under. Power the under about 1/3 - 1/2 stop lower than the over. You'll get some fill light under the helmets, and slightly more natural shadows than using then under alone - but you will still get the big unnatural shadows if you have a solid background (building, etc.). However, I found the rig unwieldy, and it will dramatically increase the amount of red eye you're dealing with.

[kb9tdj]

Thanks for resurrecting this thread, Matt. I've never shot football before (but will be this year), and I finally got some decent equipment this past spring and tried some night soccer under the lights last Saturday night. I'll have to go back and check my images, but I think I ended up at ISO 6400 on a 50D with the 70-200 2.8 and had some nasty noise banding in the images (which is about what I expected). Next time I'll try to limit my ISO to 3200 and shoot only in the brighter areas of the field and see how that works. Our soccer field lighting is very uneven and has some nasty shadows out on the ends.

I'll also talk to the coaches, but I've never seen anyone shoot with a flash on our soccer field during a game so I don't know if it's allowed. I still need to talk to our football coach to see if flash is allowed at our HS football games.

I can't wait...it's gonna be a great learning adventure this fall.

[dmwierz]

Scott - A quick Google search yielded this:

IHSAA Policy on Use of Strobe Photography
Photographers MAY use electronic flash/strobe cameras during the progress of a sporting event as long as, in the opinion of the contest officials, the flash does not hinder the actions of or endanger the contestants. The final decision as it relates to photography rests with the judgment of the contest official. School administrators have the authority to designate certain areas from which photographers may operate during a contest.

http://www.ihsaa.org/media/2006-07/StrobePolicy.pdf

Like I said in another thread, if I've never shot at a school, I will notify the AD of my intentions, and quote the appropriate rule, and I've never been turned down, nor have I ever been asked to stop using flash or strobes. Only once during a HS basketball game did a mother of a player on a visiting team (who was getting beaten soundly) complain to an official about the "flash", and the ref told her "the photographer has permission to use strobes, and in any event, the flash doesn't seem to be bothering the other team, does it?"

[Sauk]

Yea I would always suggest (just like Dennis said) calling either the coach or AD that you will be shooting the game.

Here in Utah we have no such thing as rules for photographers. Kinda annoying as then it gives each coach and ref their own opinion on what they believe is the correct way to do things.

[Palladium]

you can do it old school or

with the NEW PW w/ ETTL it will change everything

flash w/flex on each side of the field and with a mini on the camera your all set.

[Sauk]

Palladium,

From the reports I have heard the flex/mini are terrible distance wise because of interference from the flash itself. Not very reliable. (again just from what I have read)

[Mike R]

Palladium,

From the reports I have heard the flex/mini are terrible distance wise because of interference from the flash itself. Not very reliable. (again just from what I have read)
If it's on the internet, it must be true!:lol:

All kidding aside, even PW admits there's a problem. Too much noise from the flash. They have even designed a shield for the flash but I think you need to keep the flash "straight" to use it. My solution was to get the PW Plus ll for the flashes and a mini for the camera.

[ChunkyDA]

Anyone ever tried to fashion an over and under set-up?

I'd be curious to see how it would work out.
I am going to try the under w/over tonight. I'll post the results here. Whole point is to use the 2.8+TC @f4 and try the effect adding the bottom flash. I should get faster recycle times using less power on each flash than otherwise required of a single flash on top. My previous efforts have been using off-shoe cord just on the top and E-TTL so this will be less flexible using manual flash settings.
Setup weighs 14 pounds. I am going to add a modifier to the bottom flash to block the flash from the grass. Also going to add the 1.4TC which is not pictured.

[DDCSD]

I am going to try the under w/over tonight. I'll post the results here. Whole point is to use the 2.8+TC @f4 and try the effect adding the bottom flash. I should get faster recycle times using less power on each flash than otherwise required of a single flash on top. My previous efforts have been using off-shoe cord just on the top and E-TTL so this will be less flexible using manual flash settings.
Setup weighs 14 pounds. I am going to add a modifier to the bottom flash to block the flash from the grass. Also going to add the 1.4TC which is not pictured.


Cool! Can't wait to see the results.

[Dan-o]

Damn I have another week to wait. Dave are you using a battery pack? a Quantum 2x2 would work good with this setup.