Be careful out there... (Notice:Some is not photo related)

[Penguin_101_1]

:x This makes me mad.
Seattle Student Detained for Photography Assignment
Calls to the Homeland Security Department were not immediately returned.
SEATTLE (AP) - Ian Spiers had just hours to finish an assignment for his photography class. He was taking shots of a railroad bridge near the Ballard Locks when an officer with a German shepherd approached him, asked him what he was doing and requested some ID.

Later, he was questioned and photographed by a Homeland Security agent.

It was the second time in less than two months that Spiers had been questioned about taking pictures of a landmark that attracts hundreds of tourists a day, many of whom snap photos of the ships passing between Lake Union and Elliott Bay.

A growing number of photographers around the country have been similarly rousted in recent years as they've tried to take pictures of federal buildings and other major public works, said Donald Winslow, editor of the National Press Photographers Association's magazine.

"We've seen the constant erosion of our civil liberties amid this cry for homeland security by doing things that have an appearance of making us safe, but in reality it's a sham," Winslow said. "No one showed up at the World Trade Center and took photographs from nine different angles before they flew planes into it."

The morning of May 26, Spiers explained he was a photography student at a community college, showed a copy of his assignment, then asked the officer if he was legally obligated to show his ID.

The officer said no and walked away. But soon after, several armed officers approached him, including three from the Seattle Police Department and three from the federal Homeland Security Department.

"I was trying to be calm, but the truth was I was scared out of my mind," Spiers said.

This time, Spiers said, a Seattle police officer told him he had no choice but to show his ID. A Homeland Security agent who flashed his badge told him he had broken a law by taking pictures of a federal facility.

"We've never seen such a law," said Doug Honig, a spokesman for the American Civil Liberties Union in Seattle.

Spiers said he complied, spent half an hour answering questions and let a Homeland Security agent photograph him - after being told he had no choice.

The ACLU has written the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which owns and runs the locks, asking for the agency's assurance that Spiers will not be arrested if he returns there.

Corps spokeswoman Patricia Graesser said her agency had no involvement in the incident and questioned an order Spiers said a homeland security agent gave him - that he could not return to the locks with his camera without getting permission in advance.

"Everyone - all members of the public - are welcome on the locks property, and photographs are allowed, and there's no need to get prior permission," she said.

Seattle police spokesman Sean Whitcomb said the department has a duty to respond to reports of suspicious activity.

Calls to the Homeland Security Department were not immediately returned.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Spiers kept his distance from the spot where he was questioned, and wore a button on his camera bag that said: "Annoying but harmless photography student. Do not bend." He made it in early April, after two police officers showed up at his door, saying they were responding to a report about a suspicious man taking pictures at the locks.

Spiers said he'd like to hear one of the officers who questioned him say if they hassled him because his mocha-colored skin and short black hair made him look like a terrorist.

"I'm trying to figure out how not to attract attention," said Spiers, 36. "So far the only thing I can think of is that I can never ever pick up a camera."

In early June, about 100 photographers crowded onto New York City subway trains and snapped pictures of each other in protest of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority's proposed ban on photography in subways and other public transit.

And Brian Fitzgerald, the chief photographer at the Yakima Herald-Republic, said a uniformed security officer tried to prevent him from taking a picture of an immigration office, citing a "law," then calling it a "directive" that gave the officer the right to confiscate any film with pictures of a federal facility.

An officer in charge eventually let him take his photos, and he's since been told there's no reason he can't take them.

"It's frustrating mostly," Fitzgerald said. "I'm not outraged because I didn't get to the point where I didn't get my photos. It just reminds me again how much disinformation there is, even in these agencies that are supposed to know."

:roll:

[Belmondo]

I often hang around railroad yards and depots, and I've been approached by police a couple times. Once, I had inadvertently trespassed on railroad property (there was no fence, and the sign had fallen down), and was put under informal arrest until I could satisfy the Union Pacific Railroad Police officer that I wasn’t a terrorist. Understand, I’m in my sixties, very light-skinned, grey-haired, fat, with a truck full of photo gear, but the policeman still felt the need to do his ‘hard-a##’ routine with me. He radioed my driver’s license and registration information in to his ‘base,’ and when he satisfied himself that I wasn’t Osama himself, demanded the film from my camera ‘just in case.’

I explained that my camera did not use film and that I wasn’t going to give him my 1-gig CF card. We went toe-to-toe that way for several minutes during which time he clearly was trying his best to figure out why an otherwise normal-looking old fart like me would be taking pictures of trains in his dirty, noisy, smelly railroad yard. I’m not sure he ever figured it out, but ultimately he let me go with the admonition that next time, he “won’t be so nice.’ Yeah, sure.

The point is, the railroads really are resigned to the fact that there will likely be some kind of terrorist attack somewhere, sometime. With tens of thousands of miles of unprotected right-of-way, they know they really can’t prevent it---the best they can do is make it as difficult as possible. They’re doing all they reasonably can to intimidate people into staying off their property, even when it’s obvious there is no potential for harm from the individual being harassed. I find it ironic that now I have more fear of the police than of the vagrants that habituate railroad property.


Oh...the point of all this....

I now carry a file of railroad photos with me to demonstrate that this is only a hobby. It can't hurt.

[csondagar]

Is 'America, the Land of Liberty' being redefined?

[Tom W]

In your case, Tom (and mine as I'm a railroad fan myserf), the UP officer in question was picking on the best friend the railroad has - the railroad buff. The last time I got spotted on the tracks photographing trains, I ended up in the cab for a 1/2 hour conversation.

Nobody is going to mess with a train on my 1 mile of track!!

As for the first story, it looks like a case of bereaucratic over-reaction. But I would like to hear the other side of the story.

[Persian-Rice]

You guys think you have it bad?

Try looking Persian and trying to cross the border. Especially when you have 3 pakistani friends including their surgeon father who was going to a hospital in Michigan to give assistance. "Toe to Toe" is an understatement when it comes to the discussion between the Customs Officer and myself that lasted about an hour and 20 mins.

The best one is, I went down south with my mom last year. When we hit the border, as my mom is Iranian born, the pain in the asses they became. Eventually my mom got pissed an revealed and identified herself as a pretty umm important Canadian Federal Employee. I guess if you Persian or Muslim anything, it matters, if you are Persian or Arab and have a job that can put the customs officers job art risk, you are ok................Hell i dont even believe in Islam if you want to get into the details....................

I agree with the checking, but both these cases ended up being blatent dicrimination, as is belmondo and the other guys case. You should have heard what they were saying. I guess this problem is all over the states now. When you obviosuly can see a guy is a photographer, let it go.............

[John_T]

My direct ancestors fled England to America in 1661 because of religious persecution. Since they were members of the English royal family they were given a land grant by Lord Baltimore that included the whole Chesapeake region including the now Washington DC, chunks of Virginia, Maryland, Delaware and Pennsylvania. Part is still in the family, the original house built in 1661 and some land. Among my direct ancestors and family are George Washington's Aide de Camp, signatories to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, the founder of the US judicial system and law, my own namesake, officers, politicians and other known figures in US history, captains of industry, and currently a couple of US Senators, a president of UN commissions on women'sights and a bunch of others as a short list. I grew up in the heart of US history.

I originally came to Europe as a member of the US "intelligence community", which quite frankly wasn't and isn't very intelligent at all. But with access to the inner sanctum of "Top Secret", it gave me quite an insight into people, government and nations with all their machinations, well or mal intended, goood and bad. The difference between the real and the percieved, between what is public and what is "secret", between the US's juvenile vision and world realities, have, in my sight, become a vast and widening gap.

The patterns that are now developing in the US hardly vary from what we have seen in **** Germany with the Gestapo, the USSR with the KGB and secret police and every other country and system the US has hypocritically declared as "evil". Every leader and government in history has seen it's measures and machinations as "necessary" and "justified". The only difference between history and the present is hindsight and lack of current insight. The average German or Russian citizen had no more awareness of what was developing around them than the "average" US citizen has today.

Perhaps the average US citizen has the illusion that he knows what is going on, but if he really did, he would be doing more to resolve the current polarization between "good and evil" than joining in the current feverish and panic filled polarization that will inevitably lead to more destruction and misery. Perhaps the US needs to experience a few things, rather than to read, write and talk up a storm about them, to learn something. Homeland Security sounds quaint, but will someday be as hated as the Gestapo and the secret police.

Today I feel far, far more secure, free and relaxed with my privacy respected in Europe with all it's history and faults than in the US... and that's a shame... and somewhat frightening...

If you have never tried persian rice, you have missed something.

Recipe?

[Tom W]

I probably didn't state my case very will - I was invited into the train engine's cab in a friendly manner by the engineer and brakeman (or whatever they call them now) - it wasn't a case of detainment at all. We had a very nice conversation, and might even have touched this subject a bit. :)

Anyway, John's post is quite good, and I share some of his feelings and insights. People have put way too much trust in the government. I was firmly against the leftist agenda, where government becomes the caretaker and father figure of the family, only to find out that it is also the agenda on the right, albeit from a different tack. It seems there is no real right and left within the government leadership, so much as there is a facade of those traits.

And yet, at the same instance, the people are sharply divided with the two agendas, each stressing rather insignificant (and sometimes falsified) issues as important, while ignoring the incredible power grab that is taking effect from dot-gov. Voting is becoming irrelevent and the soapbox is crowded with thoughtless speakers, each selling their vote at someone else's expense.

[Belmondo]

Like so many people, John_T seems to have a clear idea of what (who) the problem is, but he offers no solutions. With his priveleged insights, I regret he didn't see fit to do so. Obviously his answer is to leave the country. Most of us don't have that option.

Perhaps we are headed in some inescapable eddy spiraling towards a more closed society with fewer freedoms. It is sadly ironic that our long tradition of individual rights now makes us vulnerable to an erosion of those rights from two directions: by those who want us dead and by those who purport to protect us.

If I had lived a century ago, I probably would have been an isolationist. With instant worldwide communication and the global economy, this is no longer an option. Being good citizens of the world is not an answer, and may not even be possible. Friendships and alliances are increasingly worthless, and with the exception of England, our traditional allies now appear to be our newest enemies.

Being the only remaining Super-Power simply makes us the world's most tempting target.

It's all too much for me.

My answer?

Buy another lens.

[Big_B]

General Chat: Free chat about anything - but preferably related in some, even weird, way to photography


Yup. That sums up this discussion :D

[Tom W]

Like so many people, John_T seems to have a clear idea of what the problem is, but he offers no solutions. With his priveleged insights, I would have hoped that he might have been able to.

That's a good challenge, and I'd like to hear a response as well. Not to put John_T on the spot, but we need some solutions.

Obviously his answer is to leave the country. Most of us don't have that option.

Well, things aren't quite so bad here in the south, or at least not in flyover country. I can still say hello to folks on the street, regardless of their background, and they will generally return the greeting. Even our punks are friendly. :) And, nobody gives you a second glance if you are taking a picture of a bridge or federal building or even a water tower. We still share a little freedom in these parts. Outsiders are noted and tracked by the general population, and Yankees are encouraged to move on to Florida. :)

Oh, and for the record, the entire Southeast did try (unsuccessfully) to leave the country once, back in the 1860's.

Perhaps we are headed in some inescapable eddy spiraling towards a more closed society with fewer freedoms. It is sadly ironic that our long tradition of individual rights now makes us vulnerable to an erosion of those rights from two directions: by those who want us dead and by those who purport to protect us.

Yep, and its not just those that want to protect us from others - its also those that purport to want to protect us from ourselves. I do hope you're wrong, but considering the attacks that the 4th amendment have sustained of late (not to mention the second amendment which is meant to secure the rest), I worry about the same thing.

I'm an individualist at heart - kind of a mixture of libertarian and conservative values with little desire to be tracked, watched, or otherwise "encouraged" to behave in the required manner. If I were still in high school today, I'd probably be voted "most likely to get shot down at a DUI checkpoint". ;)

If I had lived a century ago, I probably would have been an isolationist. With instant worldwide communication and the global economy, this is no longer an option. Being good citizens of the world is not an answer, and may not even be possible. Friendships and alliances are increasingly worthless, and with the exception of England, our traditional allies now appear to be our newest enemies.

Some of our traditional allies have sold us up the river more than once. Nevertheless, we should try to "all get along" as best as we can within the circumstances (quote by Rodney King). Trust but verify.

Being the only remaining Super-Power simply makes us the world's most tempting target.

Especially when communist China still packs quite a punch, and doesn't like the successes of a capitalist society. It rains on their totalitarian parade.

It's all too much for me.

My answer?

Buy another lens.

Funny - I was thinking of trading up from the 17-40 to the 16-35.

[Belmondo]

Buy another lens.

Funny - I was thinking of trading up from the 17-40 to the 16-35.

Well, Tom, if you had to pick the one thing out of my rant that's worth hanging your hat on, that's it.

I have both lenses, and have to tell you I haven't used my 17-40 since buying the 16-35. The 17-40 is so good, however, I can't bring myself to get rid of it. I even offered to loan it to a particular person on this forum just so I wouldn't have to sell it. He ended up buying his own.

[Big_B]

I even offered to loan it to a particular person on this forum just so I wouldn't have to sell it. He ended up buying his own.

Give it to me. I'll sell it 8)

[Belmondo]

I even offered to loan it to a particular person on this forum just so I wouldn't have to sell it. He ended up buying his own.

Give it to me. I'll sell it 8)Sorry, Big_B, you aren't 'particular' enough. (I see the dreaded D70 in your sig) :lol: Maybe someone will make an EOS adapter for that thing so you can get decent lenses someday. On the other hand, if you ever get a Canon DSLR, we'll talk. :roll: :wink:

[Tom W]

Buy another lens.

Funny - I was thinking of trading up from the 17-40 to the 16-35.

Well, Tom, if you had to pick the one thing out of my rant that's worth hanging your hat on, that's it.

I have both lenses, and have to tell you I haven't used my 17-40 since buying the 16-35. The 17-40 is so good, however, I can't bring myself to get rid of it. I even offered to loan it to a particular person on this forum just so I wouldn't have to sell it. He ended up buying his own.

My 17-40 is so fine that my Sigma 20 mm prime barely edges it out at only one aperture - f/4.0. If I went for the 16-35, both of these would go.

How does your 17-40 compare in image quality to the 16-35? I've read the luminous landscape article, but one copy of each lens doesn't represent a good sampling. I'm particularly sceptical when PopPhoto's SQF chart puts the slight edge to the faster, more expensive lens.

I wouldn't want to make the move if I'm going to lose image quality.

[Big_B]

I even offered to loan it to a particular person on this forum just so I wouldn't have to sell it. He ended up buying his own.

Give it to me. I'll sell it 8)Sorry, Big_B, you aren't 'particular' enough. (I see the dreaded D70 in your sig) :lol: Maybe someone will make an EOS adapter for that thing so you can get decent lenses someday. On the other hand, if you ever get a Canon DSLR, we'll talk. :roll: :wink:

You spotted it? Dang! I'm going to have to work harder at this whole covert subversion thing :wink:

[Belmondo]

You spotted it? Dang! I'm going to have to work harder at this whole covert subversion thing :wink:

Pretty hard to fool me. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go bid on this lens...http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3828320709&category=46 87&sspagename=rvi:1:1
(I love these 'too-good-to-be-true' deals, especially when they come from people with no eBay history, and especially when they also have only high-ticket items for sale and will only let you bid if you're a pre-approved bidder)

[Lamplight]

Tom, you have saved me a lot of typing, and done so in a far more eloquent fashion that I could produce. :D Oh, and if you decide to get rid of your 17-40mm, let me know because I want one. 8)

[Tom W]

Tom, you have saved me a lot of typing, and done so in a far more eloquent fashion that I could produce. :D Oh, and if you decide to get rid of your 17-40mm, let me know because I want one. 8)

If I do anything of that nature, it will be in mid-August. It would be a pretty easy deal, since I could meet you anywhere between here and Nashville!

[Persian-Rice]

I totally agree with John_T, I think the average US citizen has no clue what is going on, even though they think they do. You can't really blame them either, they are either uninformed or misinformed about things through the media.

I chat with many Americans on my MSN all the time, as a Canadian, in many cases I know a lot more about Americans and the US in general then many Americans do about themselves. I know plenty of Americans who also know quite a great deal, it really depends on your drive to want to know. I say that because some seem to know and be in denial about it, ei an argument I had with a guy who said the US has no WMD and was not a threat to the rest of the world..........

I guess its a result of being in a more impartial environment. That or my ties to the mid-east, where I not only hear, but have seen these "conspiracies" in action. Or that I have travelled abroad many times, to see the difference in culture and the way media and government try to control the views of their citizens.

Every superpower has its 15 minutes, then it gets greedy. We have seen this many times during history. People can argue that the US is not comparable to the **** regime. They are as bad, but smarter about it. They have people do their dirty work for them. Where was the US when Iran cried out to the world saying the US was providing chemicals to Iraq to kill off Iranians? Now 20-30 years later you see that Bush openly admit they the US did this.

To keep this on topic with the forum though............that 17-40 is one damn good lens hahahaha.

[John_T]

Just to round off, I don't at all mind being on the spot, because I feel that in the present day each and every one of us is on the spot and challenged to reconsider everything and and our part in it. Reconsider with ourselves, not with others. If we become clear within ourselves what is reality and what is not, what is vital and essential and what is waste, and act accordingly and responsibly, that will carry over to others with hardly speaking a word. The more each individual wakes up, the more things will change in himself and his environment. We can only change ourselves. Trying to change anybody else is only likely to be rejected and strengthen the will to resist change in the other.

I am not a believer in blaming anybody for the state of my life nor the state of the world, though it's easy to fall in with the crowd. Whenever I point a finger at somebody else, I've got four fingers on my own hand pointing back at myself. Life has evolved out of need to survive and need to learn for the next round. Each of us is doing the best he can within the framework of his DNA, upbringing and, unfortunately, society. I'm sure anybody would do better if he could. It is only out of experience that we learn to do better, be it through the dark night of the soul or slap happy in the sunlight. In a certain sense, a crocodile is far more evolved than a man because he's been at it for one hundred and fifty million years. If the evolution of man doesn't cost the life of the planet, it's going to be a beautiful place. I just don't know how many eons it is going to take.

My only solution is what I do with my life and how much I learn out of the the experience I seek. I was born in Virginia, grew up in Salem, Radford, Blacksburg, Oak Ridge, Charlotte, Huntsville, Elkton, Ossining, NYC, Munich, Fernet Voltaire, Geneva, Hong Kong, Sydney, Singapore, Bangkok, London, Bridgehampton, Pittsford, Bombay, Zurich, Schwyz, Bern and a few other places. The longest I have ever lived in one place or did the same thing has been five years. I've been shot a few times and shot a few others, had friends killed, go broke, get rich, get enlightened. I've been rich, been poor, been stupid, been an *******, been a sweety-pie and been through the mill quite a few times. I feel enriched by it all and wouldn't have it one bit otherwise. Life has beckoned and I have followed. So this makes me the sum total of it all, plus the insight I have been lucky enough to gain, with still lots to learn before I choose to push up daisies.

If I had the answers I might be President, but would probably get shot for my trouble. What can I do about the world? Nothing. Can I do something about myself and my attitudes? Everything, whenever I manage to get my ass in motion. Would I like the world to straighten up and fly right? Of course, but that will only happen to the extend that I allow others to live their lives and make their own experiences. I have never liked being forced into anything myself, so I'd be a hypocrite if I tried to force others into anything. You generally can't get anybody to do anything until you've listened to them and recognized that you aren't the only truth in the universe, no matter how rich and powerful you are.

Whatever we now have in the world is similar to what has happened throughout all of history. The scale has increased, the names and faces have changed, the speed of events has accelerated, the means and methods have been refined, but it still carries the same pattern of merry mayhem as before as man seeks his maturity and fulfillment. Nothing can be inhuman if it is done by humans. Rights exist nowhere else in the universe, so, along with a multitude of other things, they must be an invention of man, synthesized for some self-interest in status, wealth or power. In all of history there have only been two periods, war and the preparation for war. Whatever you see done or thought up by man is man. While I can get all upset about it, can I also see my part in it, however so tiny? Sometimes, which makes me as responsible as the other.

If you were to consult every "founder" of every religion, Christ, Buddha, Mohamed, Krishna, Lao Tzu, Lao Tse and all, they would all be in total accord with one another. Only the followers find differences to elevate their own status, power and wealth. There are no differences in religions, only in followers. So what's the dispute? The spiritual is a personal thing. There is no good and evil. There is only what's happening now and what you make out of it.

The human world is a product of itself, so as a human it is pointless to complain. One can only explore and live out his humanity and mature, and hope for the sake of comfort, that others are doing the same in their way as you are doing in yours. I'm convinced that every single one of us creates his own heaven or hell through the choices he makes. Whether these choices are conscious or unconscious makes no difference at all because they result in the experience we seek. I equally feel that whatever we "do unto others" we do unto ourselves simultaneously, with perhaps delayed delivery, and we all end up in the same boat. The fact is we are all in the same boat, whether we choose to recognize it or not, and each has his own paddle to swing at another or pull in the same direction.

Nothing is without cause and all you need to do is thumb back through the pages to find it. When you find yourself in there under causes, in some form or the other, again you have the choice what to do. Choices are individual and consequential. Only when enough choices and experiences coincide do things change in the world. This something beyond politics, religion and power and what is happening now. When change is ripe, it happens, individually or globally. We can only watch, participate and learn in our own way.

[Mthorpe_Davies]

Hell I love living in a country where personal freedom is real and not just a figment of the past. I'm glad I don't live in the US or anywhere near it, I'm also happy that my Prime Minister is able to stand up to the US when it counts and not cower and fall over like John Howard or Tony Blair, both leaders who are out of touch with will of the populations they represent.

Down here in New Zealand you can take photo's of whatever you want and it will always stay that way, now all I want is a bigger lense to shoot planes.

[Penguin_101_1]

Do you have the right to own guns?
I love living in the U.S.!
I support BUSH all the way!

[John_T]

Watch where you point that thing bro'. :!:

One guy's 600mm is another guy's rocket launcher. More than one PJ has bit the dust and never heard the apologies for mistaken identity. :roll:

[Mthorpe_Davies]

Do you have the right to own guns?
I love living in the U.S.!

Yes we do, just not hand guns or automatic assault rifles.

I support BUSH all the way!


Then you are an idiot! Bush will go down in history as the most reckless, arrogant and foolish president you lot have ever had! If you think about it he will be responsible for the begining of the end of US influence in the world as we know it today. The US has lost the respect it once had, unless Bush goes this election it will take a very long time to return.

I personally don't care what happens to the US today, I was sickened by 9/11 but if it happened again I wouldn't care, I (like many others) believe that whatever happens to American is of of it's own making. You guys funded and supported Osama and Saddam amoungst others and now the consequences of that support is bitting you on the bum.

[Mthorpe_Davies]

Watch where you point that thing bro'. :!:

One guy's 600mm is another guy's rocket launcher. More than one PJ has bit the dust and never heard the apologies for mistaken identity. :roll:

Might be but in NZ our cops don't cary guns so I wouldn't have to worry about that situation would I. Besides I feel confident that a NZ cop would ask me what I was doing before he shot me, that's if he was allowed to carry a weapon!

[Penguin_101_1]

Do you have the right to own guns?
I love living in the U.S.!

Yes we do, just not hand guns or automatic assault rifles.

Wow! I bet it is a lot of fun shooting those BB guns and .22's! They give you a lot of protection! :roll:


I support BUSH all the way!


Then you are an idiot! Bush will go down in history as the most reckless, arrogant and foolish president you lot have ever had! If you think about it he will be responsible for the begining of the end of US influence in the world as we know it today. The US has lost the respect it once had, unless Bush goes this election it will take a very long time to return.

WERE DID YOU GET THAT AT? THE DU?
You are an idiot too! What about Clintion?

Just FYI: The best President that we have ever had was Ronald Reagan. What do you have to say bad about him?? :roll: I would love to hear how wrong you are! I need a good laugh!
[qoute]

I personally don't care what happens to the US today, I was sickened by 9/11 but if it happened again I wouldn't care, I (like many others) believe that whatever happens to American is of of it's own making. You guys funded and supported Osama and Saddam amoungst others and now the consequences of that support is bitting you on the bum.[/quote]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Penguin_101_1]

Watch where you point that thing bro'. :!:

One guy's 600mm is another guy's rocket launcher. More than one PJ has bit the dust and never heard the apologies for mistaken identity. :roll:

Might be but in NZ our cops don't cary guns so I wouldn't have to worry about that situation would I. Besides I feel confident that a NZ cop would ask me what I was doing before he shot me, that's if he was allowed to carry a weapon!
At least our cops protect people!
http://www.georgewbush.com/images/downloads/GWB_logo_350.gi

Look at this: http://www.stats.govt.nz/domino/external/web/nzstories.nsf/092edeb76ed5aa6bcc256afe0081d84e/2039c57ed7273ce6cc256b180001bcf3?OpenDocument
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/12/01/ncrime01.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/12/01/ixhome.html
Only the Dominican Republic, New Zealand and Finland have higher crime rates than England and Wales.
ALL FACTS!!!

READ IT!!!

The crime is higher than the 20 largest western countries including the UK that has the worst crime rate than the 20 largest countries in NZ.


"As long as there are guns, the individual that wants a gun for a crime is going to have one and going to get it. The only person who's going to be penalized and have difficulty is the law-abiding citizen, who then cannot have [it] if he wants protection-the protection of a weapon in his home, for home protection."
-- Ronald Wilson Reagan (b. 1911), 40th US President, Republican

George W. Bush has freed more people than anyone since WWII! Did you forget that?

Banning firearms will not reduce suicide, gun accidents or domestic violence. Where gun bans were implemented in Wales, England, New Zealand, Australia New York City, Washington, D.C., Detroit and Chicago, crime rates soared. Criminals simply move into the undefended vacuum and bless politicians for their ignorance of firearms issues.

[Belmondo]

Hey guys, let's ratchet this down a bit. Political zeal has a place, but not in a photography forum. This started out as a gentle discussion of how it's getting harder to poke a camera where we want, whenever we want. That's all.

Let's keep out feelings about various elected officials to ourselves and get back to talking about cameras, photography, and things generally related. For whatever part I played in stirring all this up, I apologize.

Please. Let's drop it.

Thanks,

Tom

[Tom W]

Hell I love living in a country where personal freedom is real and not just a figment of the past. I'm glad I don't live in the US or anywhere near it, I'm also happy that my Prime Minister is able to stand up to the US when it counts and not cower and fall over like John Howard or Tony Blair, both leaders who are out of touch with will of the populations they represent.

Down here in New Zealand you can take photo's of whatever you want and it will always stay that way, now all I want is a bigger lense to shoot planes.

You're making the assumption that New Zealand matters to the terrorist-type people - it doesn't. The only reason the US is even a target is because its President has enough 'nads to stand up to third-world dictators, rather than appease their demands. How many attacks on US interests have taken place throughout the last administration - the USS Cole, the first attempt at the WTC.

Its not just about the will of the people - its about ridding the world of the menace that has harassed the good people of this world for too long. Saddam Hussein is but one of the leaders of this mess. There are many who follow the same pattern - they need to be sought out and eliminated. If that sounds harsh, too bad.

[Belmondo]

Okay, gang. That's enough. I think it might be time to freeze this thread if we can't get a grip on ourselves.

Come to think of it......that's not a bad idea. (I mean, the grip on ourselves part.)

I'm so naughty. :oops: :oops:

[Penguin_101_1]

I don't think this needs to be frozen. I am trying to get people to understand what they are saying is wrong and they need to get the right facts! I was just stating the facts becuase that is one of my rights.

[Tom W]

Then you are an idiot! Bush will go down in history as the most reckless, arrogant and foolish president you lot have ever had! If you think about it he will be responsible for the begining of the end of US influence in the world as we know it today. The US has lost the respect it once had, unless Bush goes this election it will take a very long time to return.

The US hasn't lost any respect - in fact, it has gained some. It just decided that it will no longer serve to sacrifice itself to appease the so-called leaders of other countries. Bush isn't the pushover that Clinton was, and that has gotten others in a bit of a tizzy.


Reckless and arrogant? Hardly. Perhaps a bit gutsy and decisive, but that is what a leader is supposed to be.

I personally don't care what happens to the US today, I was sickened by 9/11 but if it happened again I wouldn't care, I (like many others) believe that whatever happens to American is of of it's own making. You guys funded and supported Osama and Saddam amoungst others and now the consequences of that support is bitting you on the bum.

You didn't care before either - you only claim that you did to support your sorry argument.

I really tire of people that hide behind their keyboards and try to jab at what is still the greatest country in the world. Yes, it isn't perfect, nor is any other country. But it is a tad above most any other place in the world, save a few spots.

Seems to me that folks ought to be a little more knowledgable before spouting off and attacking their favorite whipping boy. The US has been a successful nation, and it is that success that seems to draw jealous outside criticisms from folks that don't know anything but what the biased media tells them.

[Penguin_101_1]

TOM: THANK YOU!

[Tom W]

Okay, gang. That's enough. I think it might be time to freeze this thread if we can't get a grip on ourselves.

Come to think of it......that's not a bad idea. (I mean, the grip on ourselves part.)

I'm so naughty. :oops: :oops:

Sorry Tom, but I'm not going to let some idiot who's probably never even seen the US make obnoxious comments about our president just because the president happens to have a pair.

[Belmondo]

Okay. This is far enough. I hope to go to New Zealand some day, and I don't want to be known as the guy that let the discussion on the Canon forum get out of control. They won't let me into their country, and that would be a shame.

To the best of my knowledge, I have no enemies there---only friends who, for whatever reasons, don't admire my country as I do. That's why this discussion has become inappropriate for this forum. It's not photography-related, and we're never going to solve anything with this sniping back and forth.

Let's get back to talking about cameras.

Once again.....please.


Thanks,


Tom

[Penguin_101_1]

Hey guys, let's ratchet this down a bit. Political zeal has a place, but not in a photography forum. This started out as a gentle discussion of how it's getting harder to poke a camera where we want, whenever we want. That's all.

Let's keep out feelings about various elected officials to ourselves and get back to talking about cameras, photography, and things generally related. For whatever part I played in stirring all this up, I apologize.

Please. Let's drop it.

Thanks,

Tom
Tom you didn't do anything! This is more about some guy who has no idea what he is talking about trying to make people think he is right. He then went on to call me an idiot for stating that I think Bush is better than Kerry.

[CyberDyneSystems]

The open debate of ideas is both is perfectly acceptable.. in fact encouraged on this forum...


HOWEVER

Name calling and personal attacks will not be tolerated

Please.. debate,. and argue Ideas... express your opinions on IDEAS ...but as soon as we start again with personal attacks on either individuals or there belief's, the thread will be locked.

[Belmondo]

Sigh.

I think I'm getting a headache.

Now I remember why I never had children. :lol:

[Belmondo]

The open debate of ideas is both is perfectly acceptable.. in fact encouraged on this forum...


HOWEVER

Name calling and personal attacks will not be tolerated

Please.. debate,. and argue Ideas... express your opinions on IDEAS ...but as soon as we start again with personal attacks on either individuals or there belief's, the thread will be locked.

Ah...

The booming voice of a real moderator.

Thanks, whatever your real name is.... :wink:

[CyberDyneSystems]

Well a warning is allways worth a try...

But the last post was deleted and the thread gets locked.

I think it's a shame that this spiraled so far out of control. The thread was a good one and the the subject of significance to all photographers.