About to buy a 580EX and need to know what diffuser to get.

[chabooky386]

I made a poll to see which one I should get. But, I guess the question was a little to open... Which diffuser should I go with? Something like a lightsphere looks good... But, which one? Or is there something different that is better. I am mainly shooting portraits and in low light indoor places. Just need some opinions on what to get before I get something...

[blackjacked]

I've had good success with the diffuser that's built into the flash...

[cy88]

From what I have been reading in the past little while on diffuser questions, you will get tons of response in regards to make your own...also a lot of negative comments against the Light sphere II and how Gary Fong is just a great marketer.

I am not a fan of DIY. I disregarded all those negative comments and bought a Gary Fong along with my 430ex today at a good price used, and I find it being very reasonable. The outcome of the pictures are close enough to bouncing off the ceiling and in fact sometimes better because there are lights shotting frontward as well.

All in all, i like it so far, but I might be speaking too soon.

[Kristy]

I would go with the Lumiquest Pro Max system... I've been testing a better bounce card www.abetterbouncecard.com and the Lumiquest system is very similar, but maybe a little more professional looking and it has a ceiling for when there is no ceiling to bounce from. :)

[DavidW]

The only disadvantage with the Lumiquest Promax System (which I would also recommend) is that you can't use it in portrait orientation unless you have a bracket that allows you to rotate the flash over the camera. That means a camera rotating bracket, or a Newton flash rotating bracket. Most flash rotating/flash flip brackets can't be used.

I use a Newton Di400CR bracket.



David

[Pekka]

See http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=377373

[chabooky386]

With the lumiquest is that a snap on mechanism or is it some kind of adhesive thign u have to put on with it as well...??!?!

[jr_senator]

I have and use, depending on the situation, Lumiquest 80/20 and Westcott's Micro Apollo (I have two). Nice thing about the Apollo instead of the Promax is that the diffuser is a bit larger and made of the same stuff the larger stuido softboxes are. I also use a flash bracket.

[DavidW]

With the lumiquest is that a snap on mechanism or is it some kind of adhesive thign u have to put on with it as well...??!?!
You do get velcro dots that you can stick to your flash. An alternative, which I prefer, is to buy the Lumiquest Cinch Strap. This wraps around the head of your flash, velcros to itself, then you fix the Lumiquest accessory to the Cinch Strap.



David

[chabooky386]

You do get velcro dots that you can stick to your flash. An alternative, which I prefer, is to buy the Lumiquest Cinch Strap. This wraps around the head of your flash, velcros to itself, then you fix the Lumiquest accessory to the Cinch Strap.



David


Figured... thanks for the help :)

[LightUser]

I don't like gluing and velcroing my flash up all over the place..the flipit has it's own velcro strap....love it.

[Reefbone]

Another vote for the Flip-It (http://www.dembflashproducts.com/flipit/)

http://www.dembflashproducts.com/flipit/i/big-front-2.jpg (http://www.dembflashproducts.com/flipit/)

[Curtis N]

With the Lumiquest system you also have the option of a Velcro strap which they sell separately. Nothing glued to your flash.

My flash units are wrapped with a strip of adhesive Velcro which I find quite handy for attaching not only the Lumiquest products but also homemade bounce cards and gels.

Or, there is this option, which works as well as anything and sometimes better than the $50 devices.

http://performancephoto.smugmug.com/photos/193799451-L.jpg

[chabooky386]

nice!

[Danger Mouse]

I use the Flip-It also. Works pretty well.

[Wilt]

The GF Lightsphere is OK in the right situation...it is just quite pricey compared to other things that achieve virtually identical photographic outcomes at lower entry cost (including wonton take-out plastic containers!) That is the main reason it suffers the slings and arrows of POTN posts. It also deserves grief for the simple fact that numerous people have suffered the indignity and the bad timing of the LS falling off and rolling across the floor at the most inopportune moments; I haven't hear that befalling any other light modifiers on the market.

[Reefbone]

Chabooky - So did you get the flash? What did you end up with? Fongwere? Lumiquest, Flip it ? Index card? Nothing ?

[chabooky386]

I am just going to go with the stofen it seems something descent and I have seen some people that have had some good shots with it. The fong stuff seems a lil limited.

[Wilt]

I am just going to go with the stofen it seems something descent and I have seen some people that have had some good shots with it. The fong stuff seems a lil limited.


Save your money! see Curtis' post #13 for something as effective as Stoffen for soft light indoors. The poor man's 'Flip it'.

[chabooky386]

Save your money! see Curtis' post #13 for something as effective as Stoffen for soft light indoors. The poor man's 'Flip it'.


ahahah that flip it might do the job as well...

[Reefbone]

I know the Sto-fen is very popular but I honestly could only see it being effective when used straight on. This would be great if you had no ceiling to bounce flash and your flash is the primary light source. In most other situations (I think) the Sto-fen is really is only making the flash work harder.

I personally only use the flash straight on if it's daylight(sh) and I'm using it for fill. I do this often

I'm going to reiterate how great I think the flip it is.

1.) You can most consider the flip it another light source when bouncing. The ceiling is one and the reflected light from the flip it is another.

2.) It's hinged so you can adjust the reflected light. You can't do that with an index card.

3.) Obviously more durable than index card.

4.) Flip-it can be used in landscape and portrait mode. You could do this with and index card but not how Curtis has it attached. Also attaching an index card to the small side of the flash is an awkward operation.

5.) Unlike a the Sto-fen, the Flip-it will fold flat if removed although I just leave mine on the flash all the time.

I really feel that it was one of the less expensive best things I have ever bought. Can you tell? :D


BTW - I do not work for, or gain anything by promoting the Flip-it.


HOWEVER: I might like to see a daylight fill flash shot with Sto-Fen and without Sto-Fen to see if there is a noticeable difference.

[chabooky386]

I know the Sto-fen is very popular but I honestly could only see it being effective when used straight on. This would be great if you had no ceiling to bounce flash and your flash is the primary light source. In most other situations (I think) the Sto-fen is really is only making the flash work harder.

I personally only use the flash straight on if it's daylight(sh) and I'm using it for fill. I do this often

I'm going to reiterate how great I think the flip it is.

1.) You can most consider the flip it another light source when bouncing. The ceiling is one and the reflected light from the flip it is another.

2.) It's hinged so you can adjust the reflected light. You can't do that with an index card.

3.) Obviously more durable than index card.

4.) Flip-it can be used in landscape and portrait mode. You could do this with and index card but not how Curtis has it attached. Also attaching an index card to the small side of the flash is an awkward operation.

5.) Unlike a the Sto-fen, the Flip-it will fold flat if removed although I just leave mine on the flash all the time.

I really feel that it was one of the less expensive best things I have ever bought. Can you tell? :D


BTW - I do not work for, or gain anything by promoting the Flip-it.


HOWEVER: I might like to see a daylight fill flash shot with Sto-Fen and without Sto-Fen to see if there is a noticeable difference.


Yeah that is some handy pointers. I guess I might just get both and see how things go from there!

[Wilt]

I know the Sto-fen is very popular but I honestly could only see it being effective when used straight on. This would be great if you had no ceiling to bounce flash and your flash is the primary light source.

When used straight on, the Stoffen does NOTHING...it provides zero increase in the apparent size of the light source. (That comment ignores the fact that light goes upward to a ceiling--if present and low enough and neutral in color! --even when the Stoffen is straight ahead.)


In most other situations (I think) the Sto-fen is really is only making the flash work harder.

True, in all situations!


1.) You can most consider the flip it another light source when bouncing. The ceiling is one and the reflected light from the flip it is another.

True for Curtis's card, too!


2.) It's hinged so you can adjust the reflected light. You can't do that with an index card.

You can bend the card! ;)


3.) Obviously more durable than index card.

You pay your money and you get durability. Cards replace for pennies. ;)


4.) Flip-it can be used in landscape and portrait mode. You could do this with and index card but not how Curtis has it attached. Also attaching an index card to the small side of the flash is an awkward operation.

You could use it on a flash bracket and avoid the issue entirely.


5.) Unlike a the Sto-fen, the Flip-it will fold flat if removed although I just leave mine on the flash all the time.

The Stoffen makes a nice container for parking meter change, when not used for photographic purposes. :rolleyes:


HOWEVER: I might like to see a daylight fill flash shot with Sto-Fen and without Sto-Fen to see if there is a noticeable difference.

Nothing visible to the eye, unless the flash simply does not have the power to provide the level of fill desired because it has used up all the power in the charge capacitor! The greater consumption of battery power is not evident to a viewer seeing the photo on line! :rolleyes: When used straight on, the Stoffen does NOTHING. And there is no ceiling to bounce off of, when the sky is overhead (or the ceiling is too high).

[Reefbone]

Wilt - Seems like your anti Sto-fen also?

[jargaguy]

I got the Lumiquest Pro-Max System. It is very versatile. It works very well indoors when there is no ceiling to bounce from and when there is it has the 80-20 thing going on that gives very nice fill. It also has a gold & silver reflector to add some warmth or highlights.

It's about $40 or so. I think it's a great investment and looks pretty professional when shooting events. PeopIe who don't know see that and the flash, lens and bracket and say WOW! That's some expensive gear. They feel better about hiring you. I bought the cinch strap and didn't have to velcro the flash. I'd say go for it!


JA

[chabooky386]

yeah the lumiquest seems to be popular as well!

[ofdphoto]

+1 for the Flip-It.

I have tried the Stofen OmniBounce and the Lightsphere but have only used the Flip-It in real shooting situations.

Can you make a DIY Flip-It? Yep, but it won't look as slick.

[Wilt]

Wilt - Seems like your anti Sto-fen also?

I am not anti-Stoffen. There are simply other ways of accomplishing the same thing at less expense, and there are ways of solving a broader veriety of photographic situations with other products (whereas the Stoffen is pointless in those situations and only wastes battery power...like the Fong LS). If I was forced to choose, I would choose a Stoffen before I would choose the LS!

[Reefbone]

I would choose a Stoffen before I would choose the LS!

I dunno... the Fong thing could come in handy if you had to pack your lunch :D

[ofdphoto]

I dunno... the Fong thing could come in handy if you had to pack your lunch :D

:rolleyes:

Aren't the Fong Dong jokes getting a little old?

[Wilt]

I dunno... the Fong thing could come in handy if you had to pack your lunch :D

No, I would have TMR Design's innovative flash modifier made from a take-out wonton soup plastic container...it spreads light just as well, and lunch would be pre-packed for me!

[Vigants]

I am about to pull the trigger on a 580EXII and have been reading all the reviews about diffusers (so that maybe I can save some $ getting everything shipped at once). My conclusions:

Indoor (small rooms like in normal people's houses)
My impression is that the various tests show very little difference between all the $50-$150 systems and straight ceiling bounce. Seems to me that the 580, aimed at the ceiling will diffuse the flash well (ceiling is a big diffusing surface) and with the built-in white reflector pulled out to provide a bit of direct light one should be able to avoid the brow or nose casting a disagreeable amount of downward shadow.

Outside, or in really big rooms
I've noticed a frequent correlation between room size and ceiling height :) , so I consider these situations about the same and bounce is just not going to be effective. If the flash is just fill, shooting straight on is fine. If flash is primary light, then I can see wanting to diffuse it . . . but since there is no ceiling to work with I conclude that the Sto-Fen, Lumiquest 80-20, Fong devices, Better Bounce, etc will all primarily serve as battery depletion accelerators. To the extent that the flash has enough power to overcome them they might actally work, but if you never intend to use the bounce feature, why accept the inefficiency?

The Flip-it would seem to offer a somewhat reasonably priced solution for this situation without wasting too much light, but I wonder how much it actually diffuses when you are really just reflecting the full output straight forward?

Lumiquest's Promax system has various bits and pieces designed to not throw all the light away (into the sky) if you don't choose to "bounce", but you are paying a large underlying cost for the "bounce" part of their system.

Lumiquest's Softbox seems a pretty direct solution - shoot forward through an opaque diffuser - but at $30- $40 it seems expensive compared to the various eBay solutions, ranging from blow up units (sound funny, but maybe they work?) or even elastic waisted diffusing sleeves - for <$10.

I'm not a pro, so I use a flash mostly for outdoor fill and shooting indoors in smallish spaces (think Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter) so for the odd time I need to diffuse direct flash, a $10 bit of gear stuck in my camera case seems a reasonable compromise. I really do not want to start shoving dissected milk jugs over my flash - sorry. That is also a bit awkward to pack for travel.

For a while I was also trying to factor in the value of the optional coloring of some diffusers (like the StoFen Gold, etc) thinking that if I colored the flash to match the ambient lighting, then used tungsten light balance I would improve my results.

My parallel research on that front has led me to conclude that I am better off buying a Lastolite Ezybalance and setting custom white balance any time I am suspicious that AWB is going to produce a less than acceptible result (which is basically any time I am not in direct sunlight :mad:).

I really have come to the conclusion that any of the more costly diffuser systems would be money largely wasted - or at least better spent buying a flash bracket to get the unit further from the body and also to deal with shooting vertical. I'm also considering a Better Beamer - to try fill flash for shooting soccer on days when the light is either behind the players (cannot always choose the field orientation) or directly overhead (faces in shadow except when getting set to head the ball).

Comments and suggestions are invited with respect to:

(i) a cheap diffuser that works straight on.

(ii) a flash bracket that is reasonable priced, packs well for travel, handles both H and V and switches between orientations not too painfully.

(iii) whether the Better Beamer on a 580EX with a Sigma 70-200/f2.8 will reach far enough to make a difference as fill flash for daytime soccer matches on a full sized pitch.

[Wilt]

Vigants, you have arrived at some very sound conclusions for yourself...congratulations on the insight that so many are struggling to find.

I having been using a Newton Bracket and a Wescott Micro Apollo (mini softbox) for over a decade of wedding coverage. They provide me the equivalent of your (i) and (ii) conclusions, but at a price level which is justified in professional application but beyond what you are willing to allocate to the expense, which is perfectly fine! As many have pointed out, there are less expensive equivalent products on the market or which you can fabricate for yourself, which are likely to be deficient in the long term yet which work wonderfully while they are still somewhat new and not worn out.

[Reefbone]

Vigants

One thing to note about the white pull out card ( I love saying this)... It is not intended to be a bounce card. It is too small to throw any signifigant light forward.

The white pull out card is designed to be a catch light. A catch light gives the subjects eyes a sparkle. Here's is an example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch_light) and definition on Wikipedia.

[Vigants]

Thanks for the nod Wilt. And thank you, Reefbone, for the clarification on the 580 pull out card. I spent some of this lazy Sunday reading more, including a healthy dose of the Strobist site.

One thing I am having second thoughts about is the fact that if I compose shots with both flash and tungsten, I may not get what I am after simply by doing a custom WB - since the WB will be at best a compromise and will not change what light is present.

I'm thinking that I may have to suffer the f-stop loss and try (for instance) a Sto-Fen (or clone) to color the light from the flash and then use tungsten WB or custom WB - but at that point at least all the light will be of similar temperatures. I'm thinking that one of the cheap eBay kits with white, gold and green Sto-Fen clones will be a cheap way to test this out. I am also thinking that the flash, shot straight up, with a Sto-Fen on it might also throw enough light forward to achieve the fill I want for faces.

It's really 2 issues - directing the light and coloring the light. My concern (based on various examples I've seen on-line) is that the Gold/Green Sto-Fen solution may fix the color, but not achieve the bounce/fill effect I am after. If that turns out to tbe the case, I suppose I'll be trying a softbox with a gel.

In a separate thread I've been asking questions about frames, cords and the ST-E2. I really like the idea of the ST-E2 in order to be able to play with off camera flash but also because I like the idea of adding IR AF assist to my 20D for (low light) available light shots.

Another thing I want to improve is my soccer shooting - where quite often the available light is either harsh direct overhead light (mid-day games) or backlight (early morning or evening games when the parent side of the field is the reverse of what I would choose). For soccer I intend to mount the flash to the monopod (upside down, underneath the camera, according to the technique described in a cool thread about night football shooting), but this will not work (so I am told) with the ST-E2 because it will not be facing the sensor on the flash. So for this I'll need a cord.

Basically, I am coming to the conclusion that to try all the things I want to experiment with I'll need to buy the ST-E2 and a cord and something to color the light from the flash. This doesn't break my heart too much - I try to be frugal but if I need to add a few hundred more to the pot to get where I want to go, I'll survive. It doesn't make sense to spend several grand and end up with shots that are only marginally better than P&S, when 10% more will give me the flexibility I want.

Note that I am being careful not to say that +10% will give me success - just that it will give me the tools to suceed or fail based on my own efforts. I do not believe that just throwing money at this will buy me the skills of a highly experienced photog. Let me state here that I greatly appreciate that the wise and skilled are willing to share their knowledge - your considered responses are very much appreciated!

Speaking to this thread specifically (diffusers that is, not cords or remotes or frames) I think that I will start with a set of cloned Sto-Fens. I should be able to do this for $25 (or about 1% of my camera gear investment). If I am still not happy, I'll reconsider more expensive diffuser options. Frankly, I'm realizing that the ST-E2, frame and cord are about 10x more significant (dollar-wise) than these diffuser decisions.

I also have a hunch that the most interesting results will come from getting the flash waaaaay off camera. The Strobist site (and results) are quite compelling - I can see it leading to an eventual second flash purchase . . . and flash stands and umbrellas.

Damn - it will never end!

I can only hope. :)

P.S. Apologies to Gary Fong (et al), for not helping to finance his next yacht or vacation home. I've simply come to the conclusion that for the same money I can buy a lot more flexibility. If my primary concern was to buy a single magic bullet, I'd be approaching this differently. But I'd rather pay the same money to have a whole range of options.

[ofdphoto]

If you've been reading strobist, you'll know that gelling your flash itself will get you where you want to be colour-wise with very little light loss. Then you can use whatever diffuser you like.

Gels are cheap ... check out the packs that MPE (linked from strobist) sell.

[Vigants]

If you've been reading strobist, you'll know that gelling your flash itself will get you where you want to be colour-wise with very little light loss. Then you can use whatever diffuser you like.

Gels are cheap ... check out the packs that MPE (linked from strobist) sell.

There is a LOT of info on Strobist - not nearly done educating myself. :)

I guess I am leaning toward the Sto-Fen clones because they strike me as a compact, convenient, durable and cheap thing to try first. If the only option were the (over-priced) originals, I'd be more wary.

By the time I figure out whether they'll work for me or not, I'll have learned enough and have enough experience to more intelligently determine what to try next.

The value of my research so far (IMO) is that I am going to side-step the $100+ 'bounce' solutions that I suspect will be as (or more) disappointing.

[ofdphoto]

I know there have been plenty of opinions already posted here, but I'll add mine on Stofen (and its clones) ... it's a good thing to have in your bag, but it's not as useful as it's made out to be. Mine has seen zero effective real-life use (except with macro shooting).

[Reefbone]

Stofen ... with macro shooting.

Good point. I had almost forgotten this use. Now you got me thinking. I don't use my macro as much as I should but maybe this would be a good way to quiet my "buy it" bug and add a little something something to the bag.

[LightUser]

The flipit lets the ceiling diffuse the light, it just reflects some forward.....pretty much a waste in certain situations. Can't wait to see what contraption Gary Fong is going to reveal at the photoshow in New York Thursday at his booth.

[Vigants]

Another data point. I was in touch with Canon yesterday about my 20D which is in for service. After talking to the customer service rep I mentioned that I had some technical product questions and they put me on the phone with a professional (Nascar) photog that is moonlighting at Canon as part of his post-retirement. After quizzing him about lenses, techniques, ST-E2, etc. I asked what diffusers he has in his bag. His answer was that he has Sto-Fens for all three of his strobes. He also mentioned that he likes to use the Gold one to correct flash color for use in tungsten light. One other thing he mentioned in passing is that one of his Sto-Fens is pretty beat up after being 'fetched' by his dog a number of times - but still works. I think that a lot of the fold flat units would not stand up to that. For extending his flash for action shots with a telephoto he rubber bands business cards around his 580Ex to gain an additional 15' of so (to total a max range of about 75'). He didn't think he'd do any better with a Better Beamer.

So I think that Sto-Fens are definitely the first thing I'll try.

We also talked about the ST-E2 quite a bit. I've come acrosss some pretty negative reviews on these - people usually just feel they are too expensive and less reliable than other aftermarket triggers. This pro was also skeptical whether he'd spend $200 for this when he could buy a 430 to use as a slave for maybe $40 more. On the other hand, he did concede that if I was using it without flash to improve low light focussing, I'd probably love it. I do like natiural light and the 20D (sadly) sucks at focussing without ample light (my old film Elan did too) so this is promising news.

[ANGUS]

Can anyone suggest a nice compact Lumiquest unit that will greatly improove the light from my 580EXII?

[Vigants]

Can anyone suggest a nice compact Lumiquest unit that will greatly improove the light from my 580EXII?

I am curious to know what issues you have with the 580EXII light? In which shooting situations?

[Alan W]

I use a stofen for all shots at weddings - inside and out - there is no point in keep taking it on and off. If doing a window shot I will usually use a piece of white card I keep in my pocket just to push the light into the non window side. If there is a ceiling available and I am shooting not too close I keep the flash head up or almost up and the stofen still manages to throw some light forward. When close I want an even light so have the head full on and dial the flash down between -1 and -2 EV. Shoe mounted flash is the hardest thing to learn in photography.

[Golf Nut]

Why not save yourself a bunch of money and build your own? Here's a great tutorial:

http://super.nova.org/DPR/DIY01/

[Charlie]

save yourself the money, and dont get any.

3x5 card is the way to go. I have a 580 and got a fong knock off to try (no way am I spending 50 bux for that thing). It works good, but it's not practical. It's ugly as heck and no way would I get caught with it in public. Bounce works great, and the built in catch card works great as well. add the 3x5 for portraits. Adjust the catch card up and down for the intensity.

Learn from my mistake, dont buy junk!

[ANGUS]

Why not save yourself a bunch of money and build your own? Here's a great tutorial:

http://super.nova.org/DPR/DIY01/

Thanks for the link, I might give that a go this weekend.

[Golf Nut]

Thanks for the link, I might give that a go this weekend.

I built one for each of my two 580EXs and love them.

[ANGUS]

I am curious to know what issues you have with the 580EXII light? In which shooting situations?

No issues i just prefer the quality of light they help produce, I saw some images taken using one of them for bounce and really like the results.

I assume it would be easy to modify the measurements to make one for use like abetterbouncecard to just flip it for portrait orientatation if i make it.

[LightUser]

Gary Fong just came out with a universal version of the lightsphere II..same product except it has the universal mount like his Whale Tail, looks a little different.

[woffles]

I don't like to put anything on my flashes anymore if I can help it. Most situations give me somewhere to bounce the light to get nicer more realistic shadows mixed with ambient light. If it's too large an area to bounce I try to get the light off camera with a small softbox on it. No matter what kind of doodad you put on the flash it will still be basically direct light coming from the camera which is the most boring lighting you can do. Light needs a little drama.

[chabooky386]

So many interesting aspects on this whole flash ordeal. I still am quite lost lol! On a 4 page thread I have learned many interesting thoughts!