off camera lighting shopping help needed

[kja]

I would like to start working with some off camera lighting and am trying to put together the best set up for my immediate needs so I need your input.

I do not have an assistant and can't foresee having one very often. Most of our weddings and shoots are outside on sand or uneven ground. Often we have to trek a bit so compactness and speed of set up is important. I also need to pack it for relatively small airplanes with fairly tight restrictions.

I currently have a single Canon 580, Canon 20D. I do not own a tripod or monopod etc.

Budget is, of course, an issue, but I'm actually pretty flexible on this.

Not sure what else I can offer to get the best advice for my needs, but please let me know if there's something I can offer that will help you answer me! I will be doing all of my shopping in the US, if that matters.

[tim]

Have you read strobist? That's one good way of doing it. http://strobist.blogspot.com

This image (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=368753) was made with a 580EX on camera and a 550EX off camera held by my assistant. I don't usually have an assistant, so I get wedding party members or wedding guests to help out. ETTL makes my life easier than using radio strobes, if you do it that way things are pretty slow until you get really experienced. Lots of trial and error that you don't really have time to do at a wedding.

[kja]

Thanks, I have that bookmarked and am going through it again for specific gear information.

[picturecrazy]

If you want fast setup, then just go for a 430EX. You retain ettl and is the easiest to set up. With these two flashes, I consider this a ONE light setup as often outdoors (especially in sun) you gotta point the master at the slave (and NOT at the subjects) just to get it to trigger somewhat reliably.

You can get lightstands for cheap. I bought mine for C$30 and they've been doing the job well for years. Or you can also mount a light on a tripod. Everyone should have a tripod anyways...

The other common slaves like ebay 'cactus' triggers and pocketwizards using your 580 require a lot more lighting knowledge on your part. You may be spending more time tweaking settings than actually shooting.

The other way to go is to to buy a radio slave like the ebay triggers, PW, or microsync, and then use an auto thyristor flash like the Sunpak 383 which can be had new for a reasonable price. This will do the flash metering for you as long as you set your camera and your flash to the same settings.

[TXLEBER]

Have you seen this:


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/475575-REG/Impact__Digital_Flash_Umbrella_Mount.html

[bcap]

Kristin - depends on what kind of off-camera lighting you want to do. You can simply get a 2nd 580 and use Canon's IR system. The problem with this is that your flashes need direct line of sight, and, it's not 100% outdoors (although I haven't had a problem).

Otherwise, you can look into getting a couple Pocket Wizards.

[kja]

I'm in a somewhat enviable position of having the time to experiment and tweak so that's good!

I think I want something that allows more flexibility than line of sight only.

Here I was thinking just to get another 580 (the newer one even!) but from the looks of the advice so far this isn't right?

[bcap]

I'm in a somewhat enviable position of having the time to experiment and tweak so that's good!

I think I want something that allows more flexibility than line of sight only.

Here I was thinking just to get another 580 (the newer one even!) but from the looks of the advice so far this isn't right?

If you want more than line of sight, I'd suggest investing in some Pocket Wizards then ... they're about $180 at B&H each, you'll need 1 for the camera and 1 for each flash you want to have off-camera.

[picturecrazy]

I think I want something that allows more flexibility than line of sight only.

Here I was thinking just to get another 580 (the newer one even!) but from the looks of the advice so far this isn't right?


This is fine... as I said above. It works well AS LONG AS YOU CONSIDER IT A ONE LIGHT SETUP. You can do TONS with one light. I usually only use one.

If you're gonna go this route, I'd suggest the 580 mark I. The 580 II drops the master/slave switch and is a REAL PAIN IN THE @$$ to switch to master or slave mode; you can't do it quickly. For this reason I can't stand the II.

[kja]

Thanks, Lloyd! That's the flash I have now so I guess I'll just find another one.

So if add another 580, a stand and some sort of remote trigger I could do what you suggest but also have the flex to use two lights if I wanted to, right? Do you use umbrellas etc, too? Is that just too much?

I'd rather buy more stuff than I need so I can experiment and grow, but I don't want to buy stuff that I likely will find just useless, if that makes sense.

[tim]

You can get cheap radio slaves at www.gadgetinfinity.com . Mine work ok after I soldered an aerial onto them, but they're nowhere near as reliable as pocket wizards. Whatever you get if you get two receivers and a transmitter you can use both at once. With wireless ETTL you can use both lights at once, but in practice when you're outside the flash on your camera needs to be pointed directly at the slave flash so it probably won't add much light to the scene. If it's not pointed directly the slave flash won't go off. Inside the light bounces around and usually hits the slave flash so you can use two lights, some of the time at least.

[figmented]

YES those cactus triggers are the best cheapest item ive bought for my photography arsenal! definitely get them!!!

[Jonathan H]

All the information posted here is correct. However, the recommendation to go to www.Strobist.com is by far the best. Start out at the feature called "Lighting-101" and work from there. As you say, you have the time. There is more information about off-camera lighting there than any other location possible, period. The opinions of 4-5 photogs (myself included) offer about as much usefulness as a single grain of salt to a pot of soup. Do your homework and you'll know exactly what you need to do. Anticipate on spending 1-2 hours a night over 3-4 nights to get up to speed. I'm happy to offer more help as necessary.

PS - if you're looking to just get started right away, buy a used 580 EX from the B&S board here. They go for about $325. This is the simplest, but not cheapest option. All you'll need then is a lightstand and "umbrella bracket." You mount the flash on the included foot, then the foot to the bracket. A basic shoot-through umbrella is the perfect way to get started.

Good bracket: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/298709-REG/Impact_3117_Umbrella_Bracket.html

Good umbrella: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/423629-REG/Impact_UBBW32_32_Convertible_Umbrella.html

Good stand: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/253074-REG/Impact_LS8A_Air_Cushioned_Black_Stand.html

The items are at B&H - among the best reputation of any camera store anywhere. The umbrella is a white shoot-through and comes with a black cover so it can be used as a reflecting umbrella too - best value for the money. The stand is 8' tall for $35. You can save $15 by going to a 6' stand, but I always found myself wishing I could place my lights a little bit higher (i.e. above head-hight) when i had the 6' stand. Now I use 13' stands, but there's plenty of time for that. The best news is that every single thing on this list will grow with you and can be of use whether you're a beginner or seasoned pro. Good luck!

[picturecrazy]

The opinions of 4-5 photogs (myself included) offer about as much usefulness as a single grain of salt to a pot of soup.

I don't know if I agree with that statement. Strobist is great and definitely should be read, but there are some pretty smart people here. And strobist likes to talk old Nikon flashes, which is totally fine, but does not really talk about the canon wireless system, it's pitfalls, it's strengths, or tips on how to use it well. It also does not tell you anything about combining manual, auto, and ETTL systems together to get the most out of your flash setup. Nor does it speak specifically about setting up canon EX flashes for off camera use, and the extra hardware needed for it to work with radio slaves, or it's problems with certain models of optical slave units.

I love strobist... but people seem to think it's the end-all-be-all of off cam flash, but in reality it's very general and doesn't get into the specifics of the system you might be using, and in that, it is limiting... especially in combining different flash systems together.

[stathunter]

Have you read strobist? That's one good way of doing it. http://strobist.blogspot.com

This image (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=368753) was made with a 580EX on camera and a 550EX off camera held by my assistant. I don't usually have an assistant, so I get wedding party members or wedding guests to help out. ETTL makes my life easier than using radio strobes, if you do it that way things are pretty slow until you get really experienced. Lots of trial and error that you don't really have time to do at a wedding.


I second strobist.........great place.

Here are a few videos that show you a little behind the scenes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQKqj4W0QWI ---from Jacob--has done some great work--models mostly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsfIn5HpXiU

[Jonathan H]

I don't know if I agree with that statement. Strobist is great and definitely should be read, but there are some pretty smart people here. And strobist likes to talk old Nikon flashes, which is totally fine, but does not really talk about the canon wireless system, it's pitfalls, it's strengths, or tips on how to use it well. It also does not tell you anything about combining manual, auto, and ETTL systems together to get the most out of your flash setup. Nor does it speak specifically about setting up canon EX flashes for off camera use, and the extra hardware needed for it to work with radio slaves, or it's problems with certain models of optical slave units.

I love strobist... but people seem to think it's the end-all-be-all of off cam flash, but in reality it's very general and doesn't get into the specifics of the system you might be using, and in that, it is limiting... especially in combining different flash systems together.

Touché! I've been bested. Everything you said is very true. If you use old manual flashes, strobist is probably still the best. There's something to be said for those flashes... you can get em used at $30-$45 a pop. You can get ebay remotes for only another $20 or so and you're in business.

If you decide to go with Canon's proprietary system, Chuck Gardner's tutorials are second to none... http://super.nova.org/DPR/

[Graybeard]

I would like to start working with some off camera lighting and am trying to put together the best set up for my immediate needs so I need your input.

I do not have an assistant and can't foresee having one very often. Most of our weddings and shoots are outside on sand or uneven ground. Often we have to trek a bit so compactness and speed of set up is important. I also need to pack it for relatively small airplanes with fairly tight restrictions.

I currently have a single Canon 580, Canon 20D. I do not own a tripod or monopod etc.

Budget is, of course, an issue, but I'm actually pretty flexible on this.

Not sure what else I can offer to get the best advice for my needs, but please let me know if there's something I can offer that will help you answer me! I will be doing all of my shopping in the US, if that matters.

Good thread kja...things i needed to find out as well...exactly as you have posted, thanks:)

[Padreous]

Lowel ID light with barndoors and filters... that woudl be the first choice..

second choice would be the Sachler reporter 75

third would be a generic video light with diffusion 1.2 stop diffusion

For on location shots, such as family portraits in hotel foyers etc etc the Lowel Tota with Brella works a treat..

[kja]

Thanks for the information, Everyone!

Strobist is a great resource and is bookmarked, but as Lloyd pointed out it doesn't specifically answer all of my questions - or confuses me sometimes - and the opinions and real world, current solutions and ideas are really what I was looking for. And you guys are delivering!

Padreous...I haven't looked at any of those you mention so it looks like more interesting gear to consider!

[colleent]

I don't know if I agree with that statement. Strobist is great and definitely should be read, but there are some pretty smart people here. And strobist likes to talk old Nikon flashes, which is totally fine, but does not really talk about the canon wireless system, it's pitfalls, it's strengths, or tips on how to use it well. It also does not tell you anything about combining manual, auto, and ETTL systems together to get the most out of your flash setup. Nor does it speak specifically about setting up canon EX flashes for off camera use, and the extra hardware needed for it to work with radio slaves, or it's problems with certain models of optical slave units.

I love strobist... but people seem to think it's the end-all-be-all of off cam flash, but in reality it's very general and doesn't get into the specifics of the system you might be using, and in that, it is limiting... especially in combining different flash systems together.

Any chance you're willing to share some of this Canon knowledge with us? I've been lost on the internet trying to figure out how to get my existing canon flashes (3 of them) to work off cam and possibly wirelessly. I can't figure out what things I need to buy and if it's worth it to do that or to get a strobe setup instead.

[tim]

Any chance you're willing to share some of this Canon knowledge with us? I've been lost on the internet trying to figure out how to get my existing canon flashes (3 of them) to work off cam and possibly wirelessly. I can't figure out what things I need to buy and if it's worth it to do that or to get a strobe setup instead.

For the basics read the EOS Bible, it's linked from the sticky threads/FAQ in the lighting forum. That's a good place to ask general lighting questions too.