What do you do if you see someone using your signiature shots?

[Padreous]

not just a variation of the shot, but colouring, gradation and composition? To a point of looking virtually identical.. as though the shot itself was done by you..what do YOU do if you come across this?

[Pete W]

Be flattered that someone is trying to emulate your work :D

[Graybeard]

be interesting to find out...hhhmmm

[Graybeard]

not just a variation of the shot, but colouring, gradation and composition? To a point of looking virtually identical.. as though the shot itself was done by you..what do YOU do if you come across this?

are you refering to this forum specifically or in general

[picturecrazy]

It would be pretty arrogant to say that a specific pose is solely your trademark. You are about the billionth photographer in the world so every imaginable pose has been done before. Someone could very well be looking at your work saying, "he's copying OUR signature shot".

Now, if someone actually stole the image from your site and put it on theirs... that's totally different.

ansel adams has taken a zillion beautiful photos of parks around the US. And a million other photographers have taken those exact same pictures in the same way as him and have even sold them to make money. This is just a part of the business.

[Banbert]

What Lloyd said, your assuming yours is the original, it would have to be very very specific to stand a chance of it being an original concept .. and even then I doubt you could claim it as your own.

Post us the sample and lets see what you talking about.

[Padreous]

""It would be pretty arrogant to say that a specific pose is solely your trademark. You are about the billionth photographer in the world so every imaginable pose has been done before. Someone could very well be looking at your work saying, "he's copying OUR signature shot". ""

I wouldnt call it arrogant.. i would call it being aware..
Considering the investment my clients make with me, and this one particular company is known to undercut the competitors (as they have done with me in the past) i would say its safe to asume that theyre also taking ideas from everyone they come across..

ok, a bit of background.. I know the company in question.. in fact, theyre close friends who are also in this industry... thing is, weve always kept work and friendship away from each other...
To a point of only recently having a sit down session whereby we were working out ways to integrate photo and video in the one package..
I know them, i know their work, they DIDNT know my video work though.. they obviously knew i did it as thats how i got a foothold in thie industry, but the purpose was to discuss what level we were to consider in regard to pricing grouped packages..

As for signiature shots, im specifically refering to a shooting method of manipulating a constant video light.. this IS for video, but the same concept applies for stills... in any case, its a little trick i use to create a fake timelaps wiht a manipulation of shadow and light..

Im also refering to a specific means of colour manipulation in post to which i know this particular comapny have never attempted in the past. In fact, their attempt now looks rather stupid, but thats my opinion.. .

In addition, it was not until after i had met this particular company and shared video work with them (ie had a movie session to view each others "best") did this plagiuarism come to the fore as their most recent work shows many of my techniqus used in their work, when in the past, they have never even attempted, let alone thought of these type of shots.. .

I do ALOT of training and i teach quite afew one on one sessions and ive never had anyone actually leach our style in this fashion... usually there is a variation to the style, but this was jsut an outright carbon copy... well an attempt in any case...

My issue is that not only do i know this company, but were close as friends.
I dont know how i could approach the situation now to bring up the fact that i am aware of what they have done without jeopardising the friendship, or the potential deal we have going in fusing my stills work to their video work.

I am flattered, but as a business, i still have certain elements which must differentiate MY work to the rest of the clones out there.

One reason our friendship grew so fast was the fact that i had believed we were on the same wavelength in regard to original prodution values.
Sadly it seems it was either an affront to see my work, (yes i am VERY secretive... but thats my hook) 100% of ppl who see my work, book me on teh spot... or that they were simply ignorant of how i felt about people using my ideas..

In any case, im still curious to know what people may think if they too were in this position..
Say a second shooter decided to emulate your work, then decided to go it alone.. what would u do, if you saw this second shooter, who once worked for you, using your techniques knowing how long and hard it took for you to perfect them.. ?? what would you do? .

I understand that theres no such things as trademarked work in regard to this kind of thing, but what do you do if it gets to a point of knowing why and how it was done??
This company, being close to me, is now pretty much duplicating what we do as a direct competitive response to my success.
They know were different with our work and they know that those differences are the main reason people book us

The question then is to how one would respond if they were in this postiion themselves.
Considering the competitive nature of video and the fact that we will soon be competing for the same awards through various associations, it makes me wonder what the response will be when ppl see our work vs their work.. side by side....which are using the same style and same type of shots and PP manipulation..

Same Script differnt actors one might say...

[Padawan Dad]

I'm in agreement with everyone here. People emulate photographers all the time. It's how we learn. I would want my assistant/2nd shooter to shoot like me... if he shot close enough to emulate me, then that would be even better. If he went out on his own emulating my work and IF it affected me, which I don't believe it would, I would do what any professional photographer should be consistantly doing regardless... advance in thier art form.

I am flattered, but as a business, i still have certain elements which must differentiate MY work to the rest of the clones out there.

With all due respect, maybe you are a clone. Perhaps someone has already done what you are producing. It's impossible to really know.

My theory has always been that people are not going to hire a photographer because their an artist, their going to hire them because they take above average pictures, fall into their price point, and have a personality that they want to work with throughout the most important day of their life to date.

Please don't take this the wrong way, it's not meant to be vidictive, but I really don't understand the sense in hiding, or being secretive about your work. I know in my area, we, as wedding photographers, are always sharing and helping each other to grow in this field... at least we try. I believe it is more beneficial than "hording," so to speak, a talent that you should probably be sharing.

If it's worth destroying a corporate friendship to you, then maybe thats the route to go. Or just talk with them about it and see if they will stop emulating your style. I think you really need to ask yourself: "What do I want to get out of this?" When you can answer that, take the action that will get you what you want. I personally think you should let it go. JMO, since it was asked.

[figmented]

Yeah, I constantly look at other peoples processing and style and try to mimic my self, and then perfect it in my own style and vision.. you have to start somewhere right?

[Padreous]

i can see your points as to having the need to start somewhere, and aIl appreciate that some of you do mimic other peoples work. We all do this in one form or another, but thats not the issue i guess..

I guess it comes down to how much of yourself is in the work? Looking at a composition and working out ways to segregate it from the source which your image is modeled on is what most people would do, and understandably it wont be a mirror reflection of the original.
I guess in this case, and in many other cases where people copy other peoples work, the difference is the experience and skill in attaining that shot. This difference would be noticable on the outset, and rightly so, especially if a shot thats been done hundreds of times whereby its now second nature to have the ability to pull it off

I guess in this industry its going to happen no matter what u try to do..

to respond directly to afew posts here, ive just jotted down afew points.

Above everything, i think anyone in this position of seeing their work emulated to a point of carbon copy would upset anyone. Its upset me, and i know many MANY photogs would also be upset if they saw a very similar shot which is clearly something theyve worked on to perfection..

"I would want my assistant/2nd shooter to shoot like me... if he shot close enough to emulate me, then that would be even better. If he went out on his own emulating my work and IF it affected me, which I don't believe it would, I would do what any professional photographer should be consistantly doing regardless... advance in thier art form."

Bill, i am in agreement wtih you 100%. The issue however is that as a business, the selling point of these "types" of shots is what differentiated us.. based on opinion from potential clients whove booked and from other professionals who ive trained.
In regard to advancing ones own work, again i agree and this is the only way to stay on top. Sadly with each advancement comes a learning curve.
Its this time factor which can either make or break that "new" element of the service. As to stay ahead of the pack, one must ensure that the "secret recipe" doesnt get out until its ready to be seen.
For video its a little different than stills, as stills in all honesty, is a very methodical means of acquisition. With video, one does not have this luxury considering the fact that the market itself expects only a certain level of ettiquete and discretion which the videographer must adhere to as opposed to the freedom a stills fotog would have.

In regard to being a clone, I appreciate that comment as it ensures that im not too big for my boots. I understand that in this game theres no such thing as total originality, but the point was to try to have something exclusively our own which differentiated what we do in regard to cinematography
We have achieved this and have segregated our work from the rest of the pack to a point of being in demand and having the need to reject potential work simply becuase we cant keep up.
By learning from the mistakes and styles of my trainees (ie competitors) i see what i feel might work, and what might not work.
I can se the goals being essentially the same, however by seeing this work, it does not mean that i will soon change my techniques and methods to emulate what i see.
Its just something i personally do not do, as for one, i really have no need to do emualte anothers work.
Secondly, i dont think its fair to break the trust someone has in showing me their work, then to have them see me emulate their ideas. If its a generic idea, then its a given, if however its clearly something which is not seen all too often, then that changs things.

Bill goes on to say
"but I really don't understand the sense in hiding, or being secretive about your work. I know in my area, we, as wedding photographers, are always sharing and helping each other to grow in this field... at least we try. I believe it is more beneficial than "hording," so to speak, a talent that you should probably be sharing."

Mate, i hear you.. but here in aus, when i went public with the service noone had sen this level of production for a wedding. In regard to being secretive, its not all conspiracies LOL in fact, i have shared more knowledge in rgard to business fundamentals than any other producer that i can think of on sites like dvinfo.net
The point to my retaining exclusivity in regard to who sees the work is purely for the fact that 2 years ago, one particualr compnay took our demo and ripped it. Watermarked the work and called it their own. being in another state, they believed they would get away with it. They didnt. Then there was another company which went through our site and literaly copied and pasted our tex from our site, word for word. TO a point of leaving our business name and references on their own site. Needless to say that site was closed down and redesigned.
I could go on about afew other incidents, but the point is that the integrity of the work, and our clients privacy was compromised.
I am looking at changing afew things to protect our work, but the initial resposne was no demos unless we meet you. This ensured that those pl we met were legit wedding clients and not our competititors.
This way, noone had a clue as to what we were doing and they were flying blind trying to compete.
Here in aus, its a very tough game.. tougher than most other countries as the industry itself has been tainted with lucklustre work and bad cust service.

Helping each other out and trying to ascertain a set level of standard quality of work is one of the things i have ben trying to do over the last 4 years. To a point of petitioning for regulation within the video production industry. Im all for helping people out and showing them ways to try things differently etc, but with help comes respect, and the expectation of respect from those whom i have helped. I did not expect to have the work duplicated like this, Fair enough i was expecting a form of it, but not the point of mirroring.

strange times...

[takeyourpic]

If you are starting to think that your signature shots are being cloned by someone else...maybe it is time to get some "new" shots for your list instead of shooting the same old shots every time out.
I am constantly looking for new things to try, so that I don't get stale shooting "that shot" again every single wedding. It is ok to shoot the signature shots, but I think we can all add shots to our list to weed out the not so great ones for the future.

[sadowsk2]

I've got the popcorn popped and sittin' back on this one... I even have a fan for the flames!!

[notapro]

I've got the popcorn popped and sittin' back on this one... I even have a fan for the flames!!

Okay, I have no experience, but I don't think there are too many people here who wouldn't be at least a little annoyed with someone in the same local market as you blatantly duplicating your work, and particularly a friend who hasn't mentioned wanting to emulate your work (as it doesn't sound like they have). I don't think the guy needs to be flamed, regardless of how opinions differ.

What would I do? Given that they're friends, next time you see them doing it, mention it. Not necessarily in a bad way, but a simple "Oh, I see you tried the blah blah blah technique I told you about. It looks like you have the technical aspect nailed, now you just need to put your own spin on it to make it yours." IF that would be acceptable to you. If not, then decide whether the friendship or the buisness is more important.

[MALI]

Can we see some picture samples to better understand what you are talking about or are you afraid we might emulate your work too?

[Padreous]

"What would I do? Given that they're friends, next time you see them doing it, mention it. Not necessarily in a bad way, but a simple "Oh, I see you tried the blah blah blah technique I told you about. It looks like you have the technical aspect nailed, now you just need to put your own spin on it to make it yours"U know i was discussing this exact same approach today with my wife.. keeping it casual etc but i really dont think that mentioning it would do anything to pacify me or to make them acknowledge what theyve done.. or even try to change it... Dont get me wrong, im annoyed, but not in the sense whereby we break those ties we already have. As for coming up with new stuff, I agree 100%... but then again we have the whole secret society thing happening... which is somethign i dont want to get into. As for the work itself, sarcasm is not required. A stil grab wouldnt represent the shots im refering to. As for those that want to flame me, considering the fact that they dont know me from a tibetan mountain goat... consider this.. there is you, and there is your friend. Your friend has seen your work and has decided to copy itThis friend is also known to have undercut you in the pastNow, with the shots you have attained over a number of years, they have decided to duplicate these same shots, in turn making their work just that much closer to your ownCome the client.. and for teh client, its a tossup between us, and them. They vie the work. They notice th shots are vry similar, if not identical in a sensethe differntial between you and them is not much narrower...so it comes down to the dollar.. Do you think that the client wil go with the more expensive company thats been at this for a decade? Or will they go with the company that promises to do "this" style of work, (based on what theyve seen from our company) to achieve similar results at a lowballed and undercut price? Friend or not, theyre still competitors... I can guarantee you that not one person of a sane business mind would be happy about this. And those that would be happy about having their work blatantly copied (ie carbon copied) need a course in business fundamentals. because it makes NO business sense if you are happy for people to leach your stuff while you do nothing about it. The point of this thread wasnt about me or my situation, That was simply an example of what happened to me which prompted me to ask about what anyone here would do if they experienced this themselves. Those who feel like flaming, feel free. im more than happy to step on timewasters but im not here for that. Im here to discuss a real threat which is possible to each and every one of us. And by some of the responses here, its obvious that this threat to originality has already been in existance for a long time.. Sadly this doesnt show much evolution to the art if people are content to copy anothers work.. The point is that if these threats to originality are not managed properly, what is there within the industry then? Clones? Copycats? is that what is "normal" in this industry? Considering some of the responses, its seems some people here are happy to copy others work.. for me, i dont like that idea.. fair enough youve got your everyday shots which are a prerequisite to the service, but for video, especially considering the additional technical requirements required to pull of certain shots, it doesnt fold that waylike i said.. interesting times..

[Padreous]

duno what happened with the formating there..

[16.7 BigFiles]

again with all due respect. if your not moving forward your moving backwards.(becoming dated) maybe you could be taking your style and being humble enough to realize that everyone can improve everytime theres a new gig

[StewartR]

duno what happened with the formating there..Well you could always edit it and put in some paragraph breaks.

[StewartR]

Be flattered that someone is trying to emulate your work :DI think this sums it up.

Regardless of whether or or not you should be protective about your individual style, it's a simple fact that you cannot copyright it.

Here's a non-photographic analogy. At the firm I used to work for, we were pretty good at mathematical modelling. We had some bright, creative people, and we developed several approaches to modelling our clients' data that our competitors weren't doing. But sooner or later, of course, the competition started to work out what we were doing and how we did it, and they started copying us. The marketplace got a bit congested and rates tumbled. Our response was always the same: Move on. Invent the next big thing. Stay one step ahead.

That's what you should do. It might be your signature style, but as soon as people start copying it, it becomes cliched and not distinctive. If you're better than them, then go think up something better. Stay one step ahead. If you're good enough.

[jothefish]

Padreous,
I have to agree with notapro...
I would just mention it to your friends/competitors causually over a glass of wine... I wouldn't be agressive about it, I would just say something like "I see you've decided to try that technique I showed you" and raise your glass to them and say good luck.
It will at least put them on notice that you know what they are doing. There is nothing you can do about people copying/emulating your work... If they do not feel guilty about it - which they oviously don't, then you just have to grin and bear it.
If a friend had done the done to me I would feel hurt, but that is becuase I personally could never imagine doing it... do I try to emulate the work of other photographers? Of course I do, like it has been said - that is how we learn... but would I blantently rip off the idea off a friend for business purposes - without asking the friend if they minded? No I wouldn't... to me friendship is worth more than money.
At least if you mention it... it will take that load off your shoulders, then the call is in their court to explain why they did it... if they don't... then I owuld take a closer look at my friendship...
For Mali and sadowsk2 - don't be mean... he has been a little disappointed by a friend, that is all... read between the lines... don't try to start a war...

[S.Horton]

"I noticed that you're trying to emulate my work"

[jothefish]

Who me?

[cdifoto]

I try to emulate people all the time. It's how I learn and improve.

[sblais]

I also like to emulate people all the time. It's how I learn and improve.

[cdifoto]

I also like to emulate people all the time. It's how I learn and improve.

I'm flattered. :lol:

[sblais]

I would just mention it to your friends/competitors causually over a glass of wine...

I'm flattered. :lol:

I was hoping for a glass of wine :(

[jothefish]

I always have a glass of wine ready... helps the emulation process :):)

[sblais]

I always have a glass of wine ready... helps the emulation process :):)

With wine (sometimes lots of it), I'm usually less emulating and actually more creative ;)

[jothefish]

Very, very true...

[joruiz]

ok, I didn't read the whole thread, messages are too long and I don't have the time, but I wanted to say something.

I really think people is being kind of hypocrite when they say "why be secretive? sharing is great!". Yeah, but we're running a business, and if I have something that will give me an edge to get the business to my doorstep, then you bet I will be secretive, for as long as it lasts. Of course, I can't count on my secrets staying that way forever, I have to have other ways to attract clients.

And if I had a friend who would use the same technique that I use after seeing it being used by me, knowing that I perfected it, I would doubt his friendship. It's hard to separate friendship from business when people behave that way. Of course, I would knock myself in the head for being so naive that I showed him what I consider my 'trademark' techniques (even if someone else in this world might be using it, but at least in my area I know I'm the only one doing it and that I perfected it to a point that it represents an advantage to my business). Even if you're trying to somehow merge your businesses, you don't show your gems at least until you specify the conditions and make the deal. It sounds like you two were talking about merging, and in this informal talk you showed him your secrets. That was naive. You can say 'hey, I did it because he's my friend and I trusted him' and I will tell you that then you're not separating business from friendship.

So, what would I do? I would talk to him, and tell him how I feel, in a nice way. First of all, that will put the friendship to a test, and you'll find out if it is a valuable friendship or not. Second, if things go bad, then you'll learn, than in businessland, you don't trust your mother. That's how it is. At least in my view.

As for what others are saying that sharing and teaching is a good thing, yes I agree to a degree. If I am risking some advantage that my business has in my area, then I certainly will be reserved with those things I know are giving me that advantage. Other techniques or knowledge, I will share gladly. The first thing to know, is what my competition is, where it is and what they're doing. After all, were competing for the same client, so the client has to see clear differences, and I have to show them those differences.

cheers

[joruiz]

Ok, I read my comment, and I just one to add one thing. Everything I said was thinking about a special thing I do to my stuff. Something that really differentiates my stuff from others, and gives me an advantage, perhaps something not very widely known, something rarely seen even on the internet.

But other things that can be learned one way or another I could facilitate to my competition, I would gladly share.

Competition in my area and I bet it is true for most of you, is fierce. Sharing on the internet is great and I find it everywhere. Sharing face to face, that doesn't happen as often, or as easily.

[S.Horton]

I always have a glass of wine ready... helps the emulation process :):)

Right. Exactly. That's wine, not whine. Life's too friggin' short to leave the H in it.

;)