PC for graphics in UK

[pigasus]

I'd really like to get a new PC so that I can run Pekka's 400-800HQ action in real time. :)

I have a general idea of what I want it to do (be FAST and stable). A local firm of PC boffins will build it for me to whatever specification I want. But there's the rub. There are so many alternatives and I'm no expert. Also I'm afraid that even if I specified the absolute best available components, that's not a guarantee that they will work together well.

So what I would like is to find a place (or an individual) who build/sell PC's specifically for graphics (photoshop and photography) work. Someone who can translate my needs into a working box of tricks. And they need to be in the UK.

Can anyone help?
Thanks,
Sally

[David Lawson]

My son built mine, my girlfriends fathers and an artist I do reference work for. All are fine. He would do you a quote. At present he is on holiday for a couple of weeks. I am a photographer based near Northampton.

[pigasus]

David Lawson wrote:
My son built mine, my girlfriends fathers and an artist I do reference work for. All are fine. He would do you a quote. At present he is on holiday for a couple of weeks. I am a photographer based near Northampton.
Thanks David. I think I've got it nailed now, though. Talked to a whole bunch of boffins, read tons of reviews, got together a specification for quotation and am now negotiating with my local shop to match the best price. Hopefully it will run like the clappers. :D

Sally

[chris maddock]

Come on, don't keep it a secret - what's it going to be?
How jealous are you going to make us?

;-)
Chris

[pigasus]

chris maddock wrote:
Come on, don't keep it a secret - what's it going to be?
How jealous are you going to make us?

;-)
Chris
Ok. Are ya ready?

AMD Athlon XP 1800+
Asus A7V333/A RAID mother board with sound on board
1024Mb DDR PC2700 memory (Corsair, I hope)
2x 80Gb 7200 hard drives (run in RAID1 - mirror)
Matrox G550 DualHead AGP graphics board

I've already got a Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 2045u 22" monitor. And I have a 40Gb 5400 hard drive and a CD RW drive which I'm putting in as well.

Hopefully, it will all work together. :D

Sally

[KHogan]

Hi Sally,

Thanks for posting this...it's very helpful as I've been looking into putting a new system together as well for similar purposes. I haven't yet decided though whether to go with Win XP or stick with Win 2000 (which I'm currently running). I was wondering if you'd gotten any recommendations on that front.

At the moment I have my Epson printers running beautifully under Win 2000 along with my other graphics/photo related applications. I'd rather not run into incompatibilities because of a new OS. At the same time, given that there never really has been a true "upgrade path" with the Windows OS's (i.e. they always need a fresh install), I'd like to avoid having to reinstall everything in a year because of a need to move to Win XP. Any idea if XP is compatible with all these applications and hardware we're currently running?

Thanks,
Kharim


pigasus wrote:
Ok. Are ya ready?

AMD Athlon XP 1800+
Asus A7V333/A RAID mother board with sound on board
1024Mb DDR PC2700 memory (Corsair, I hope)
2x 80Gb 7200 hard drives (run in RAID1 - mirror)
Matrox G550 DualHead AGP graphics board

I've already got a Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 2045u 22" monitor. And I have a 40Gb 5400 hard drive and a CD RW drive which I'm putting in as well.

Hopefully, it will all work together. :D

Sally

[chris maddock]

pigasus wrote:
chris maddock wrote:
Come on, don't keep it a secret - what's it going to be?
How jealous are you going to make us?

;-)
Chris
Ok. Are ya ready?

AMD Athlon XP 1800+
Asus A7V333/A RAID mother board with sound on board
1024Mb DDR PC2700 memory (Corsair, I hope)
2x 80Gb 7200 hard drives (run in RAID1 - mirror)
Matrox G550 DualHead AGP graphics board



Sounds good - it'll be interesting to see how much quicker it is than my XP1600/256Mb machine.
Let us know when you've got it and we can do some conversion time comparisions - as we have the same camera they'll be true comparisons.

KRs
Chris

[SteveCliff]

pigasus wrote:
AMD Athlon XP 1800+
Asus A7V333/A RAID mother board with sound on board
1024Mb DDR PC2700 memory (Corsair, I hope)
2x 80Gb 7200 hard drives (run in RAID1 - mirror)
Matrox G550 DualHead AGP graphics board


You might already now this Sally (so ignore the rest of this if you do!), but you are running your 2x 80Gb drives in a RAID1 setup. This is good for safety, but not for speed. RAID1 will mirror your drive so that your first 80Gb constantly backs up your second 80Gb. If one of the hard drives fails, you should (!) be able to get all the data off the remaining drive.

However, if you need all out speed, you need to configure the drives as RAID0 - this stripes the data across the 2 drives resulting in faster writing and reading. On my system, it was a quite noticeable improvement (although the exact amount will vary depending on the drive controller fitted to the motherboard in your machine). The other rather big improvement over RAID1 is that you get access to both drives, I.E. 160Gb rather than 80Gb. Useful for all those RAW files ! :)

Safety + half disk space = RAID1
Speed + full disk space = RAID0

By the way, if you use RAID0, make sure you keep your CDRW burning nicely with your backups !!!

Good luck.

[pigasus]

KHogan wrote:
I haven't yet decided though whether to go with Win XP or stick with Win 2000 (which I'm currently running). I was wondering if you'd gotten any recommendations on that front.
Hi Hogan. I put XP on my PC a few months ago. All my peripherals are running OK - Epson 870 printer, Wacom PenPartner, Epson Perfection 610 scanner, ColorVision Spyder, monitor, etc. But it wasn't easy! I downloaded the XP drivers from the manufacturers' sites for every bit. Had problems with the Mitsubishi monitor, but a phone call to the UK support line resulted in an appropriate driver (complete with really good XP install instructions) being emailed to me. About the only thing I lost was the software for my CD Writer - not XP compatible. But XP has it's own basic software for that. I was running 98SE and crashing daily. Personally, if 2000 is working for you and you think you'll be upgrading your PC in the future - I'd wait. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. :)


SteveCliff wrote:
RAID1 will mirror your drive so that your first 80Gb constantly backs up your second 80Gb. If one of the hard drives fails, you should (!) be able to get all the data off the remaining drive.

However, if you need all out speed, you need to configure the drives as RAID0. On my system, it was a quite noticeable improvement (although the exact amount will vary depending on the drive controller fitted to the motherboard in your machine).

By the way, if you use RAID0, make sure you keep your CDRW burning nicely with your backups !!!
Thanks for putting it so clearly Steve. I went back and forth over my options. As regards backup, I do backup now to CD, but not as often or thoroughly as I should. :( The RAID1 seems a godsend to me. From what I've read, with RAID1 while the write speed is unchanged, the read speed is faster. I did consider a RAID0+1 option. But the extra cost, going from 2x80Gb drives to 4x40Gb drives, put me off a bit. I haven't ordered the box yet, though, so I'm still open to suggestions.

I'd be curious to know in which types of application the faster write speed of RAID0 comes into play. I suppose in Photoshop where the scratch disk comes into play. But I was hoping that a Gb of RAM (with room to increase) would virtually eliminate going to the scratch disk. I was also wondering about where to site the PS scratch disk on my new system. The general wisdom is to put it on a separate disk from PS and on as fast a disk as possible. Well my fastest disk would be the 80Gb 7200 - but that's where PS lives. My only additional disk (which I'd like to use a dedicated partition of for the PS scratch) is a slower 5400. Any thoughts? Or maybe, if I'm right about the RAM making it redundant, it doesn't matter.

Decisions, decisions.
Sally

[KHogan]

pigasus wrote:
Hi Hogan. I put XP on my PC a few months ago. All my peripherals are running OK - Epson 870 printer, Wacom PenPartner, Epson Perfection 610 scanner, ColorVision Spyder, monitor, etc. But it wasn't easy! I downloaded the XP drivers from the manufacturers' sites for every bit. Had problems with the Mitsubishi monitor, but a phone call to the UK support line resulted in an appropriate driver (complete with really good XP install instructions) being emailed to me. About the only thing I lost was the software for my CD Writer - not XP compatible. But XP has it's own basic software for that. I was running 98SE and crashing daily. Personally, if 2000 is working for you and you think you'll be upgrading your PC in the future - I'd wait. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. :)

Sally

Hi Sally,

Thanks, this is really good news. I'm also running a Mitsubishi monitor (which I actually hate but that's another issue). :) My current system is running very nicely but I'm really starting to feel the time has come to upgrade. The problem is merely one of speed since getting the D30. The converting and processing of RAW files is far too slow now that I'm doing significantly more of them under tighter deadlines. I'd happily stick with Win 2000. The only issue on that front is that given the time required to fully re-install a system with all the applications and preferences etc, I'd prefer to move to the latest OS now then find out in a year that for something I want to do, I need to upgrade. So your confirmation that everything will be fine and that XP's ready for prime time now is good news.

Also, this discussion about RAID 0 versus RAID 1 is also very interesting.

Regards,
Kharim

[SteveCliff]

pigasus wrote:
I haven't yet decided though whether to go with Win XP or stick with Win 2000 (which I'm currently running).


I hate XP ... I love Windows 2000 ... but this is a purely personal taste thing :) I don't think you will go wrong with either OS to be honest. XP tries to be more intelligent in certain areas which I didn't like as for me it usually guessed wrong, however I know a number of people running it without problems. Drivers and compatability with some computer games seems to be the only real downsides.

If you really can't decide which one to go for, I'd stick with Windows 2000 - but make sure that you choose "Windows Update" when you are connected to the Internet so that you can download all the latest security patches and updates etc.

pigasus wrote:
I'd be curious to know in which types of application the faster write speed of RAID0 comes into play. I suppose in Photoshop where the scratch disk comes into play. But I was hoping that a Gb of RAM (with room to increase) would virtually eliminate going to the scratch disk. I was also wondering about where to site the PS scratch disk on my new system. The general wisdom is to put it on a separate disk from PS and on as fast a disk as possible. Well my fastest disk would be the 80Gb 7200 - but that's where PS lives. My only additional disk (which I'd like to use a dedicated partition of for the PS scratch) is a slower 5400. Any thoughts? Or maybe, if I'm right about the RAM making it redundant, it doesn't matter.

Ok, this is a personal choice, but :-

1) I wouldn't bother running RAID0+1, I would run simply RAID0.

2) In an ideal world, I would buy 2x80Gb drives (ok, in a *really* ideal world I would buy 10x80Gb! :)) along with a smaller 20Gb 7200RPM drive. I would RAID0 the two 80Gb drives together to produce a 160Gb partition, and run the 20Gb drive on the normal UDMA100 channels.

3) I would then partition the 160Gb drive in to two partitions, one for the system and one for data (I.E. loads of RAW files!)

4) Install Photoshop on the system drive but set the main swap file for Phtotoshop to the extra 20Gb drive. The second swap file for Photoshop I would set to the data drive.

5) If you don't like the extra expense of putting a spare 20Gb drive in the system, then you could try partitioning the 160Gb in to 3 rather than 2 partitions. This won't be quite as good as having a seperate swap disk, but working through RAID0 will still be much better than running a normal UDM33 set up!

One final thing, are you getting somebody to build this for you or are you doing it yourself ? The only reason I ask is that it can sometimes be difficult to get an IDE RAID system up and running correctly. You must always update the BIOS of the motherboard to the latest version to make sure that any incompatabilities between hard drive manufacturers etc. are kept to a minimum.

By the way, your 1Gb RAM is a good move!

Phew, I hope all this helps Sally .... I think I'll go and have a lie down after all this typing.

Have fun!

[pigasus]

Well, not only have I finalised my specification, but I've decided where to buy my kit. From CCL Computers: http://www.cclcomputers.co.uk/ Their online prices for all the components plus building and installing software came to £105 less than the lowest quote I had been able to find before I found them. And it's £210 less than from my local PC boffins ('we match all prices' - 'sorry, we can't match that'). That's over 20% less than I expected to spend. :D

There was one company that I really wanted to buy from, but who also couldn't match the prices. That's Gladiator Computers: http://www.gladiatorcomputers.co.uk Specifically, a guy named Tony Carpenter, who was incredibly well informed and helpful. And never needed chasing to update a quote.

So because I've saved so much money, I invested some of it back into the PC. Specifically, I'm getting a special low noise PSU (Ultra-Quiet PSU) and heatsink/fan (Zalman Flower Cooler - really that's what it's called).

I'll probably order it next Monday. I'm gonna let the whole thing settle in my mind over the weekend - just to make sure there's nothing I've overlooked. And decide if it's worth paying £25 to upgrade the collect and return to base warranty to an on-site one. Doesn't seem worth it.

Sally

[chris maddock]

Sally,

good call, I think - CCL have had much praise in the homebuilding newsgroups. I haven't personally had them build anything for me, but I've bought components from them and been very happy with the service I've had.

KRs
Chris

[KHogan]

pigasus wrote:

So because I've saved so much money, I invested some of it back into the PC. Specifically, I'm getting a special low noise PSU (Ultra-Quiet PSU) and heatsink/fan (Zalman Flower Cooler - really that's what it's called).

Sally

GREAT idea Sally! I have invested in the quiet fans and PSU (bought them from a place called quietpc.com - they have a UK based office btw) and they're fantastic!! The racket these systems make was driving me to distraction. Spent a few extra bucks to get these special low-noise fans etc. and haven't yet regretted the investment. BTW, I also replaced my drives with Seagate and IBM drives as they are so quiet you actually wonder if they're on. :) I think you'll be really happy spending the extra on noise reduction.

Regards,
Kharim

[pigasus]

KHogan wrote:
GREAT idea Sally! I have invested in the quiet fans and PSU (bought them from a place called quietpc.com - they have a UK based office btw) and they're fantastic!!
In the UK quietpc.co.uk are the distributors. CCL computers get their quiet fans and the Zalman from them. So that's what I'm getting. Glad to hear they are fantastic. :)

KHogan wrote:BTW, I also replaced my drives with Seagate and IBM drives as they are so quiet you actually wonder if they're on.
That's good news - I'm getting IBM drives. I knew they were good, but I didn't realise they were also quieter than some.


Thanks to everyone for the input on this. It's reassuring knowing I'm not reinventing the wheel. :eyes

Sally

[pigasus]

Just when I thought it was safe to come out of the water ...

I just looked at some user reviews of CCL Computers at dooyoo.co.uk. A couple were very bad - frighteningly so. They both dealt with issues of faulty parts. It seems that getting faulty parts rectified is a nightmare. Rather puts me off them.

I am not a happy bunny!

Sally :~(

[KHogan]

pigasus wrote:
Just when I thought it was safe to come out of the water ...

I just looked at some user reviews of CCL Computers at dooyoo.co.uk. A couple were very bad - frighteningly so. They both dealt with issues of faulty parts. It seems that getting faulty parts rectified is a nightmare. Rather puts me off them.

I am not a happy bunny!

Sally :~(

Sally,

Sometimes it's really worth the extra few dollars to go with a local dealer who will take the time to custom build your system to your specs. If you are paying just that little bit extra, you may get it built by someone who knows what they're doing and actually cares to make sure you get good parts and are happy with your system. Maybe go back and see those guys you mentioned earlier with whom you said you felt comfortable that they knew what they were doing. Might be worth the extra dollars/pounds?

Good luck!
Kharim

[pigasus]

I ordered my new PC today. From Gladiator Computers. They're slightly more expensive than CCL, and I can't get an on-site warranty. But they have really impressed me with their knowledge and responsiveness. It will probably be at least a week before I get it (as some of the more esoteric parts are out of stock). But that suits me fine, as from tomorrow we've got house guests for a week and my PC time will be strictly rationed.

I am now a happy bunny. :p

[SteveCliff]

Don't forget to let us know how you get on Sally .... it's always useful to know of a decent supplier.

[pigasus]

SteveCliff wrote:
Don't forget to let us know how you get on Sally .... it's always useful to know of a decent supplier.

Don't you just love it when it all goes to plan.:) It's taken me a while to set up my new PC - including a Windows XP crash requiring me to reinstall XP and start again (nothing lost but time and lots of experience gained). I just finished setting up Photoshop (which, by the way, now loads in less than 5 seconds) and I ran a D30 Linear TIFF through LS342 400-800 Convert & Sharpen HQ. This used to take almost 6 minutes for each image. And now? Just over 60 seconds! YAHOO! And in YarcPlus a linear conversion with ARF1 only took 8.3 seconds per image.

I bought the kit from Gladiator Computers (aka Velo Systems Limited): www.gladiatorcomputers.co.uk and I can't recommend them enough. Competitive prices and outstanding customer service. For example, I ordered the PC on a Friday and on Monday they called me to apologise for not being able to send it out immediately as they were waiting for a component (a special one that I specifically asked them to get). They kept me informed at all times of the progress. And they have been a terrific support since I received the PC, cheerfully answering all my questions and walking me through the reinstall. Moreover, responses to emails and phone calls were extremely prompt - even after I received the PC. I say 'they' but actually, I have dealt mostly with Tony Carpenter. A helpful and knowledgeable guy who isn't afraid to say when he doesn't know the answer and then tries to find out.

In case you can't tell, I'm extremely pleased. :D

[chris maddock]

pigasus wrote:

In case you can't tell, I'm extremely pleased. :D

We'd never have guessed ;-)

I know just what you mean about speed - I went from a K6II-500 PC to an Athlon XP1600 and the time taken to convert images just shot down, very gratifying.

KRs
Chris