First Unhappy Bride

[spcalan]

Well it has came.

The bride is unhappy due to me 'missing' some photos.

First of all I had myself and 3 other photographers working for me.

Basically she wanted 1/2 her money back because I didnt take a photo she asked for.

Let me explain... the photo she wanted i did take, actaully about 12 from 4 photographers of her drunk dad, who would not stand still for sh*t.
that wanted to fight everyone.

My staff finally got him to stand in place, and we fired off about 40-50 photos of the wedding party.

Afte reviewing them, she said she wanted a diff view ( angle ), which I showed her 4 angles. then she said she was unhappy, and since that was supposably her "only" photo she wanted she wants half.

I showed her the contract, which has a list of must haves, and she rated the wed party a 0. because of the history of her dad.

Still unhappy.

[tim]

I wouldn't give her a refund. You got the shot more than once. Can you show us one of the shots and tell us what she says is wrong?

I have a clause in my contract that no photo is guaranteed. I would a portrait session, perhaps with a discount, and offer to put her Dad into the group photo using photoshop for a fair hourly rate.

[Grace]

I realize you haven't given names...but your real name is on here and it wouldn't be the first time for a client to read about the controversy here...

food for thought.

[gravy graffix]

sounds more like shes mad at her dad... id say no way...

[Bailly Photography]

If you have the photo that you agreed to get, then id say no to refund. You did your job, and just because the angle is not right in her eyes, does not breach the contract.

[S.Horton]

Stand firm; she's gaming you, and it isn't about the pictures.

[*Mike*]

There are so many varibales that are beyond your control at a wedding - never mind that family dynamics are usually playing out that makes photos interesting to say the least. We allow the bride to make a shot sheet wish list and we do not ever guarantee any shot. You never know what's gonna happen - someone could be drunk, wander out of the frame, etc. It sounds like you managed to get her shot. Her whining that she doesn't like the angle is too bad, but not grounds for asking for a refund. Stand your ground. You provided the shot under difficult curcumstances. You fulfilled your end as long as your contract didn't have anything specific in it about posing or angles. (hope not)

[R_Metzel]

I have yet to have an unhappy bride (Knocks on wood). I also give them a check list of shots they would like me to get, but stress that sometimes things just don't work out. 99.9% of the request shots are basic formals though. So unless it is clearly stated in her contract that you will 100% provide said shots, tell her to take a hike, but nicely!:lol: This sounds like the people who will complain about anything just to get free stuff.

I myself do not put up with any crap from people. I have a specific clause in my contract that says if anyone is continuously rude, mean, ect..., and if I have spoken to the bride/groom several times and it still continues, I walk- with no refund. Don't ever let people push you around!

[totalphoto]

Sounds to me like she had more angels than Home-run 756

[turbo212003]

Wouldn't do it. She is going to get some money back. Is there anything in your contract that states you can't guarantee shots?

[JimAskew]

Sounds like she is looking for a "after the fact" discount. 1/2 off is pretty steep for a single photo pose. You have met your contractual obligations. If in your mind the requested photos do not meet expectations then you might want to off a lessor discount for that photo op...surely not 50% however. On other hand if you hold firm, the down side, of course, is that she may complain about you to other potential clients.

[cdifoto]

On other hand if you hold firm, the down side, of course, is that she may complain about you to other potential clients.

Let her complain. It's not like she could possibly complain to anyone that matters. People who agree with her are the type you want to avoid anyway. It's the reasonable folks that see her as being ridiculous you want for clients.

[tim]

Sounds like she is looking for a "after the fact" discount. 1/2 off is pretty steep for a single photo pose. You have met your contractual obligations. If in your mind the requested photos do not meet expectations then you might want to off a lessor discount for that photo op...surely not 50% however. On other hand if you hold firm, the down side, of course, is that she may complain about you to other potential clients.

Out of princinple I wouldn't give a refund, but since you missed 1 shot out of what 1000 you could offer her a 0.1% discount ;)

[JimAskew]

Let her complain. It's not like she could possibly complain to anyone that matters. People who agree with her are the type you want to avoid anyway. It's the reasonable folks that see her as being ridiculous you want for clients.

I agree with you totally, but so much of the wedding business is by referral or word of mouth then that is a risk the OP will have to evaluate.

[cdifoto]

I agree with you totally, but so much of the wedding business is by referral or word of mouth then that is a risk the OP will have to evaluate.

Yeah but I could care less about irrational people badmouthing me. Only other irrational people will believe those doing the badmouthing, and I don't want them for customers anyway.

It's like my sister when she says she's going to boycott Wal-Mart because she had a bad experience at the checkout counter. Doesn't mean I'm going to boycott Wal-Mart too...I know she's nuts. The others in the family who side with her are also nuts. ;)

[JimAskew]

Out of princinple I wouldn't give a refund, but since you missed 1 shot out of what 1000 you could offer her a 0.1% discount ;)

:) Tim, it's the requested poses not the # of shots...but 50% noway under any measure. From how the OP described the situation my gut says tell her no. But my business experience is not with photography. I have faced similar situations in my engineering business and we evaluate each "complaint" on an individual basis. Guiding factors are potential impact to our business reputation, reasonableness of the complaint or issue, and a review of what we contractually agreed to do in the first place.

[JimAskew]

... It's like my sister when she says she's going to boycott Wal-Mart because she had a bad experience at the checkout counter. Doesn't mean I'm going to boycott Wal-Mart too...I know she's nuts. The others in the family who side with her are also nuts. ;)

In the world of Wal-Mart, customers are so plentiful a one person boycott is meaningless...it is like pulling your finger out of a bathtub full of water...you will never notice a change in the water level:)

[cdifoto]

You're missing my point.

My entire point is that you will not WANT those other potential clients because they will give you the same or similar hassle as the badmouther gave you. Unless of course you enjoy stress.

I would rather have 20 good, reasonable, hassle-free clients than 200 pain in the neck ones.

[JimAskew]

You're missing my point.

My entire point is that you will not WANT those other potential clients because they will give you the same or similar hassle as the badmouther gave you. Unless of course you enjoy stress.

I would rather have 20 good, reasonable, hassle-free clients than 200 pain in the neck ones.

Agree :)

[Banbert]

Sounds like she is just trying for a discount after the wedding with very little basis for it so definitely a no no imo.

Personally I wouldnt give a discount for anything unless I was removing something substantial from the package or I had completely missed something substantial, not just that the bride didnt like my version of what she asked for, thats far too subjective.

Interesting conversation last night, I had a new enquiry originating from the place we worked last weekend (gutted because were already booked for her date at about a third of the price from one of our first bookings of last year) and the reason the bride had contacted me was because she had planned to use the same photographer that her sister had used the year before but his price had come in at more than she had exepected so she had asked if he could do anything about it. He responded by straight away knocking £700 off his price without removing anything from the package, she dropped him immediately because she felt his prices had no basis, he was just making them up and she felt like she was being ripped off.

With the package she wanted our prices wouldnt have been that different from his original price and she was happy to pay that when she felt she was getting value for money.

Giving discounts for little or no reason undermines your prices and your business.

[dmwphoto]

I would give her ALL of her money back and then give her NONE of the photos period.

[cdifoto]

I would give her ALL of her money back and then give her NONE of the photos period.

No way. There was still work involved.

[csm328]

You should definitely give her 50% of her money back. This will increase your business probably 10 fold but you'll have to drop your entire package prices by 50% since that's what you're saying your time and effort is worth. :)

[jcpoulin]

If the quality if your work is there...stand by your guns and offer her nothing. There are people who will always work a deal on everything. She probably asked the caterer and flower shop for refunds as well. The DJ most likely was bad and he/she is asked for refund!!!!As long as your confident that you provided a quality product, you earned the day! If you provide her with quality pictures, which she shows her "people", what is she going to say....."these are great but he didn't get one of so-and-so so I asked for 1/2 my money back!" People will think she is crazy or unreasonable.

[takeyourpic]

Was she polite and reasonable up until this point? Sounds like a PITA...Most of the time you can see these types of brides coming a mile away. It is also the best policy to say that you think that there might be another photographer out there that would fit better with her...for future reference.

[spcalan]

Well.

It started by me getting stood up twice for the engagement shoot, for the newspaper.. which never happened.

The wedding was ok, not terific, because of having to chase everyone down for the formals.

Proof album delivered on time
Proof album returned with 12-8x10's picked out
then they changed their mind about the 8x10 album, and only wanted the proof, and 1/2 money.

Oh well.

[stathunter]

Even if you give her a 50 or 75% refund she would be worthless to you later on......she would never be a good reference and nothing but a waste of time. Tell her you will pitch in $20 for rehab for her father.

[spcalan]

I am refunding her the cost ( not price ) of the 8x10 album and cost of 12-8x10 prints
which is $130.00
of course this is difference from the 625 she wanted back.

[cosworth]

supposably

supposedly.

No refund. 4 shooters and she wants to stiff you? You will soon find out you hold the upper hand here. You have all her pictures and until full payment is received, she gets zero, zilch, nada.

If she wants to pay half, she gets half the pictures.

[sblais]

supposedly.

No refund. 4 shooters and she wants to stiff you? You will soon find out you hold the upper hand here. You have all her pictures and until full payment is received, she gets zero, zilch, nada.

If she wants to pay half, she gets half the pictures.

What he said.

[gheesom]

agree completely

[pcunite]

I have dealt with customers like this in another business of mine. First a couple of points that won't help you at this time but for the furture.

* Avoid this type of customer if you see a similar characteristic.
* This customer is a bully. You can not negotiate with bullies. They don't THINK on your level.

This situation:
* You have three options: Give them what they want, Give them more than they asked, Give them nothing.
* If you give them what they asked it is usually not enough.

I would refund all her money or give her nothing personally. Do not worry about the bad press she will give as the cliental she would bring you would be worthless. The only risk is if she goes very very public with it. Your basically being blackmailed.

[justincase724]

A lot of interesting opinions on here. I think you made a good choice of offering her somewhat of a refund, but not the 1/2 that she was asking for. In the customer service market, isn't the main goal to leave each customer satisfied? I know that you can't make everyone happy, but there should be a medium that can be negotiated to if it comes to the worst case. If she is unhappy with the group shot, don't give it to her an deduct some of the cost. Now, if she's unhappy with the whole package, hopefully you collected a deposit so you won't walk away empty handed.

[Phil V]

The bride believes that when she has the proof book she can make her own 8x10 album.

By giving her a discount you are stiffing yourself and becoming the guy who's just a walkover. Of course you're not losing out financially _ BUT she's getting what you were going to sell her (albeit an inferior product) for a big discount.

It's your call, but personally I wouldn't be happy with her just making excuses to get some money back, as a matter of principal my line would be; "You can have all your money back, less expenses, if you're not happy with my pictures. But of course, as you're not happy with the pictures, you'll not be wanting them".

[Maureen Souza]

Did you offer her a guarantee that she would be 100% satisfied with 100% of your shots?

Only under those circumstances is a refund acceptable.

[spcalan]

No guarantees of missing photos or "poses". i added that clause to contract.

My contract says
8 hours of service
proof album with 100 4x6
1-8x10 album with 12 8x10's

I am basically now only charging her for the time, the proof album, and the proofs.
i am not refunding 1/2, only the cost of the 8x10 album and the 12-8x10's.

She is basically now married, and the husband doesnt work, and she is looking for $.
and making ir-rashional excuses.

[spcalan]

And she is mad because she cannot use proofs to make 8x10, or any other prints..
because of a little @ sign and my name on everyone of them.
ha
when I presented her with the proof album, she conplained about the @ sign and my name on each of them, because walmart or wofl camera wouldnt print them for her.
I said that is why I have the @ on there, to save me.

[cosworth]

Walk away.

[gravy graffix]

+1...

[estisdal]

If she wants to pay half, she gets half the pictures.


And the bad half at that. Only the rejects. LOL.

[charger912]

Let her complain. It's not like she could possibly complain to anyone that matters. People who agree with her are the type you want to avoid anyway. It's the reasonable folks that see her as being ridiculous you want for clients.

Exactly!!! Well put, cdifoto! Well put.;)

[Jonny]

Wouldn't the world be a wonderfully peaceful place without customers.

[mmahoney]

Still unhappy.

Yes .. and she may well continue to be unhappy regardless of what settlement you offer her.

Two options here .. either stand by your contract and offer nothing or dig a little deeper and see what's really bothering her .. I can't imagine one photo can cause such a furor, in particular a photo which was particularly hard to take, and one which you seem to have taken as well as could be expected.

You mentioned her finances are perhaps a little poor at the moment? .. is she happy with the rest of the pictures? .. I'd meet with her and see if there is some other issue besides the dad photo that's bothering her.
Mike

[thebrewer]

Wouldn't the world be a wonderfully peaceful place without customers.

Often the worst part about dealing with the public is dealing with the public.

[spcalan]

She started trying to lower the price before I even gave her the proof album.
She paid up front, 100%.
She has said on may occasions, she loved the photos, but she wanted a different view9 angle ) on the wedding party photo than I gave her.

[notapro]

The thing that gets me the most about this is that it seems she really is just trying to save herself from spending money she doesn't have. You seem like a reasonable person. My guess is that if she had approached you in the first place and said something like "I'm really short on cash right now. I love the photos and don't want to miss out on anything, but could we wait a few months to order the album?" that you would have at least worked with her. Or maybe she really is just that pissed about the "poor" shots...

[spcalan]

I work with this lady.
I knew up front that she was strapped for cash, but she made no effort to 'work" something out.
She paid 100% a month before hand with no problem.
I think now she just wants her $ back.

[SuzyView]

Sorry for your trouble. I am still amazed that people take advantage of photographers this way. I can understand if the majority of the work was terrible, but for one picture, that is not worthy of a 1/2 refund.

[BJ Pulsipher]

Lotso f good advice here. You have done enough. More than enough. I have a hard time walking away from people sometimes too. I've been messed with when I felt 'sorry' for people. You aren't in the business for charity reasons. You have bills to pay. Hopefully next time, you can see it coming and walk away sooner.

[tmonatr]

She started trying to lower the price before I even gave her the proof album.
She paid up front, 100%.
She has said on may occasions, she loved the photos, but she wanted a different view9 angle ) on the wedding party photo than I gave her.

Go to Google Earth, punch in wedding site, print out sattelite photo. Different angle? Check!

[shannyD]

Go to Google Earth, punch in wedding site, print out sattelite photo. Different angle? Check!

yeah no lie.. what more could she ask for? what a ridiculous woman.

[spcalan]

I like the Google Earth thought, i never thought about that "angle"

[deltroid]

To me, based on the information you gave us, she's just like her dad who wants to fight everyone, except it's not in a physical way. :)

Too bad she works with you, though...no matter what you've decided to do, like others said, she won't be a good reference, and you'll continue to see her on a regular basis, since you work with her...that's gotta suck. :-P

But hold your position...no 1/2 discount...it's definately not deserved.

[Nicole Faith]

I think you did more then you should have.

The fact that she came back to you after going to some cheap place to try and make copies of your work tells you that she wanted to get out of the deal she signed into. Whether you work with her or not, she is just not being a nice person and you did what you were hired to do. Also, the fact that you didn't get one exact angle doesn't mean she gets 50% of her money back. Sometimes people aren't where they are supposed to be - or in this case, so drunk they can't understand english. If she doesn't understand that fact, then explain to her that you can not physically control people and physically move them where she wants them. Because that would have been more uncomfortable and probably have ruined the wedding day. So in consideration of her, you didn't take those steps to secure a good day.

What bull**** I say. Leave it at what you have done for her and don't offer her anything more unless she is willing to pay you for your work. (2 pennies)

[spcalan]

Thank guys and gals for the advice.
Me and the bride finally came to an agreement.
I am giving her the refund of the 8x10 album and the 12-8x10 prints. which is roughly 100.00.

and I am giving them a free photo sessions with the parents, to get that "right" angle, and to make sure she is happy.

[gheesom]

please make sure she is aware that the session is free not the photos!!!

[zacker]

why not divide your payment by the number of shots taken and give her that? its alot better than 1/2 and it makes you look better. and while she wont be happy, she might just go away..

1/2 off... Geeze, good thing you didnt mis two shots or youd have to give it all back, or if you missed three youd actually have to pay her to shoot her wedding... people are nuts!

[stathunter]

Thank guys and gals for the advice.
Me and the bride finally came to an agreement.
I am giving her the refund of the 8x10 album and the 12-8x10 prints. which is roughly 100.00.

and I am giving them a free photo sessions with the parents, to get that "right" angle, and to make sure she is happy.

Just be glad you did not marry this women.....................yipes!

[JMHPhotography]

Thank guys and gals for the advice.
Me and the bride finally came to an agreement.
I am giving her the refund of the 8x10 album and the 12-8x10 prints. which is roughly 100.00.

and I am giving them a free photo sessions with the parents, to get that "right" angle, and to make sure she is happy.

I think this was the smartest move. Sometimes as a working professional we have to swallow our pride and take a little bit of a beating to make our customers happy, but make no mistake... if we had no customers, we'd have no business. You've found a solution that makes everyone happy. I'm always ok with offering sessions instead of money. That way it gives you a chance to make more money and the customer still feels you care about them... and will express that when talking about you to friends. I'm glad it worked out for you.

[didavko]

Yeah but I could care less about irrational people badmouthing me. Only other irrational people will believe those doing the badmouthing, and I don't want them for customers anyway.

It's like my sister when she says she's going to boycott Wal-Mart because she had a bad experience at the checkout counter. Doesn't mean I'm going to boycott Wal-Mart too...I know she's nuts. The others in the family who side with her are also nuts. ;)


A funny way of putting it but very true.. :p I actually had this conversation with another photographer today and we both wished that these type of customers don't know on our doors! ;)

[mikep00]

The solution is to give her FAIR options and let her decide. I think the best options that show you are doing everything to cam to accomodate her is to offer:
a) a discounted photoshoot with her dad however she wants. I say discounted off your normal rates, not free, but for cost(time/materials) +a little profit on top like say 50% of your regular profit. So say your normal rate is $100/hour and out of that $50 is roughly cost (time) and the other $50 is profit, do it for $75/hour. Something fair.
b) offer to refund your profit portion of your rates. From your post above it seemed you charged $1250 for the wedding, at 4 photographers I would say cost would be $200/photographer=$800, so offer to refund the remaining 450, so that you take no profit..... and she gets no photos at all. Basically like cancelling the contract for the wedding day to begin with.
c) offer a few extra 8x10's or something

What you must not do is refund her half the money like she wants. Basically she is trying to re-negotiate the contract after the fact and if you let this happen it will hurt all photographers in the longrun as more will expect to be able to do this.
Think about it. If I pay $50,000 for a wedding at a luxury hotel, can I go back the day after the wedding and say the place wasn't worth $50k and I want to only pay $25k??? No they would laugh. THat is what she is trying to do to you. You agreed on a price, she accepted the contract for that price, you honoured your end of the contract, you get the money.
There is nothing she can do about it, she owes you the money and would lose in a second in court. And regardless of what you do, she will never become a positive reference. You could give her all her money back and she will still mention how you missed "the most important shot"

[spcalan]

I talked to her today, and she asked.. have I talked to her husband yet?
of course I said no.. she said that they both are still wanting 50% refund.
and if I dont pay it ASAP, they want 100% back..

I said I could give 100% back, but I would get all my photos back.

$100 refund or nada.

[suyenfung]

haha whatever. i work in customer service and deal with these types all the time. she's scamming you, guaranteed. no way would i give her her money back. these types of people get away with this stuff all the time. stick it to her and don't do it man.

[Tish]

My husband and I are in agreement--as long as the contract has a "no specific image guaranteed" clause AND you've done your due diligence in offering other options (which you absolutely have), at this stage our response would be:

"We're sorry that you're unhappy with the X (fill in descriptor here) photograph. As stated in our contract, no single image can be guaranteed. We've offered options A, B, and C--if none of these are acceptable to you, we will have to abide by the contract you have signed, which has been reviewed by legal counsel & states that no refund will be granted in case of missed images."

Knowing full well this boils down to the polite way of saying, "See you in court!" We're not interested in the type of referrals we'd get from a client like this.

(Hubby's actual response was unprintable. His second response was, "you can kiss my extraordinarily pale a**!")

Whatever you do, your next communication should be sent via snail mail with receipt confirmation. Email they can always claim they didn't receive, verbal communications can be counted as hearsay in court, if it gets that far.

Good luck & do let us know what happens.

[john69az]

And she is mad because she cannot use proofs to make 8x10, or any other prints..
because of a little @ sign and my name on everyone of them.
ha
when I presented her with the proof album, she conplained about the @ sign and my name on each of them, because walmart or wofl camera wouldnt print them for her.
I said that is why I have the @ on there, to save me.


That says it all right there. Dad was difficult to work with, Hubby doesn't work, and she just wants to steal your work by copying it at Walmart. I would always overlay a copyright watermark on proofs I was letting out of my sight just for this very reason and I would do it at an angle so they couldnt just scan it and crop off the edge. I agree with others you really don't owe her a thing. If she doesn't want to take the $100.00 you offered then just walk away. Sad that she is really trying to screw you for the $ because Hubby don't work.

[JMHPhotography]

I talked to her today, and she asked.. have I talked to her husband yet?
of course I said no.. she said that they both are still wanting 50% refund.
and if I dont pay it ASAP, they want 100% back..

I said I could give 100% back, but I would get all my photos back.

$100 refund or nada.

What happened with the agreement? Did she make that agreement without ok'ing with Hubby? This really sounds like a bad situation and I do not envy you. So what does she have now for prints? Is it just the proofs with your watermark on them?

[spcalan]

She has the proof album, that has the watermarks.

basically she is bluffing me into giving her 50%. which I am not letting up.