Expanding on the XTi

[form]

As was mentioned by "Tee Why" in another thread, the Rebel series typically goes through an 18 month product cycle, which means that the next update should be announced in February 2008. I will ask the same question here that I did on a later post on that thread:

What could they do to improve the XTi without making it infringe on the 40D?

Let's list primary differences:

The 40D is more expensive
The 40D is larger and heavier
The 40D has a shutter life expectancy of 100,000 cycles, XTi has 50,000
The 40D has digic III, XTi has digic II
The 40D has a more durable and better-fitting body
The 40D has a bigger viewfinder & interchangeable viewfinders
The 40D has more viewfinder info
The 40D has a slightly bigger LCD
The 40D has live view
The 40D has PC sync and a new wireless comm terminal
The 40D has 6.5 & 3 fps burst mode, XTi has 3fps
The 40D can shoot 75+ JPG in burst, XTi can shoot 27+
The 40D has ISO3200 & 1/3 stop ISO settings
The 40D has spot metering
The 40D has 14-bit RAW
The 40D has more custom functions
The 40D has 1/8000 sec max shutter, XTi has 1/4000
The 40D has 1/250 sec flash sync, XTi has 1/200
The 40D has Kelvin white balance
The 40D likely has a faster shutter lag

Now, which one can the XTi gain, or gain ground on, without blurring the lines?

Digic III is the most obvious update, which should technically mean improved buffering capacity.
Live view might be another thing. To put that on all their models would be good for Canon.
14-bit RAW might be another thing. This also seems like a feature that should become standard.
Spot metering should be another thing, because Nikon and just about every other brand's entry level dSLR has it.
A bigger viewfinder should be another thing, but it will likely be reserved for the higher end models.

Is that all? That doesn't sound like a very significant upgrade to me. Can they really introduce any other upgrades without cutting off the blood supply to the 40D? Also, with each Rebel update, they have increased the resolution; will anyone be satisfied with a Rebel update that does not share that trait? If they do such an upgrade, won't it be the Rebel's version of a 30D?

I am looking for ideas about the next Rebel series update. At present, I don't see the Rebel being upgraded in February 2008 unless just to hold a pattern of product cycling, irrespective of significant advances in design or feature set.

Does anyone else have a thought on this?

Thank you

[BigBlueDodge]

The Rebel line is designed is the entry level SLR for Canon. What I interpret that to mean is that this camera is designed for folks who are frustrated with P&S and want to step up to a more serious camera. I would suspect that 80% of the Rebel XT user base never take the camera off the "green box". As such, I feel that Canon should make a priority on the "automatic" capabilities of the camera, and still allow a certain level of manual overrides.

What I would like to see from the XTI that follows this focus
* 12MP - Because MP sells
* Auto ISO
* Live View - since 99% of people that use P&S use the LCD
* Better Built in Flash - I would like to see the built in flash have a better guide number. Most of the folks with the XTI will not purchase an external flash, because it already includes one.

Other than that, I think the Rebel line is great for what it is designed for.

[ryleung]

While I agree with most of your view, BigBlueDodge, Live View will needed to be significantly improved / revamped to make it useful for the P&S crowd. At the moment, I would say that Live View is a crippled function because it requires either manual focusing, or the screen needs to blackout. Until a smart way is devised to autofocus without losing the screen for any amount of time, LV would still only be a better than nothing feature for the P&S folks.

-Lik

[metalsaber]

12MP and faster frames/sec shooting.

[anmoldagreat]

i think it will be the xxxd version of the 30d
most likely will have digic 3, live view, a spot meter and not much else

[EOS Man]

12MP and faster frames/sec shooting.

But that would bring up that old 30D vs 400D question again... 'more MP'. Except this time it would be '40D vs 450D'.

Faster FPS? Unlikely, Canon would like people to step up to a better camera for that

[Athoras]

But that would bring up that old 30D vs 400D question again... 'more MP'. Except this time it would be '40D vs 450D'.

Faster FPS? Unlikely, Canon would like people to step up to a better camera for that

I wouldent be suprised if they pushed the fps up to 4 or 4,5 fps especialy if they starts using the digic III proscesor.

One thing im thinking about is IS if they find they can squeeze a is lens with the kit without makeing the price a bit to steep. Another option would be to try out a shifting sensor if that make it cheaper, might be a good idea for an consumer camera.

Though the improvments i personaly would like the most would be slightly bigger gripp and a bigger viewfinder.

[RedHot]

The 20/30D's old viewfinder, spot metering, iso3200, bigger buffer, 14bit, 3in LCD, 2nd generation dust repellancy for the sensor, 4fps, iso in viewfinder only when changing iso. That's all. Body only price: $750

[Dragos Jianu]

I'm quite sure their aim will be to cut the price rather, add more MP, larger LCD with live view and IS kit lens. Thats what the average consumer making the jump from P&S is after.

Starting price : 750$ (18-55 IS kit)
- 12MP
- 3" Live View LCD

Beyond that you might expect some minor upgrades here and there but the main goal will be the price point. It will slide between the Noink D40X and the D80 price wise.
Canon know noink will strike again in February with a replacement for the D80 and possibly a FF equivalent of the 5D.
Canon need a break in Febraury and it has two shots : 450D and 5D2 - and cutting down the price will be crucial. That's what saved the 40D

[anmoldagreat]

if canon loses the 5d market
...it would be a huge hit to the whole company and image

[RedHot]

I'm quite sure their aim will be to cut the price rather, add more MP, larger LCD with live view and IS kit lens. Thats what the average consumer making the jump from P&S is after.

Starting price : 750$ (18-55 IS kit)
- 12MP
- 3" Live View LCD

Canon know noink will strike again in February with a replacement for the D80 and possibly a FF equivalent of the 5D.


Canon won't do 12MP. And they won't go to $750 including a $200 lens. That would be $550 body only when the XTi came out at $800 body only. Canon cannot go that low. Like I said no lower than $750 body only.

And nikon cannot put out a 5D equivelant in such short time. They need to let the d3 sit and have their customers pay $5000 for it instead of put out a $3500 cheaper model right away. And I don't think nikon can put out a FF sensor dSLR for less than $3500. The 5D2 will likely be less than $3000.

if canon loses the 5d market
...it would be a huge hit to the whole company and image

Huge hit? You realize that entry level models outsell hobbyist/amatuer and professional cameras, right?

The 5D outsells the 1-series line, the 40D will outsell the 5D, and the XTi will outself the 40D. Canon is out to make money, like any company.

[nwa2]

As was mentioned by "Tee Why" in another thread, the Rebel series typically goes through an 18 month product cycle, ......


There have been two "Rebels" or am I mistaken. That is two points on the graph, how do you know it is not a diminishing series and the next rebel will be out in 17 months??? :D

[Dragos Jianu]

There have been two "Rebels" or am I mistaken. That is two points on the graph, how do you know it is not a diminishing series and the next rebel will be out in 17 months??? :D

Canon 300D/Digital Rebel : 20-Aug-03
Canon EOS 350D/Digital Rebel XT : 17-Feb-05
Canon EOS 400D/Digital Rebel XTi : 24-Aug-06

[John_TX]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Canon held off on a 450D release in Feb '08 and waited until Summer 2008 for the 400D successor.

Why you ask? If Canon wants to continue selling 40D's, releasing a 12MP 450D in Feb '08 with basically all the features of the 40D + higher MP would be insane.

Also, Canon won't release a 450D @ 10MP either. The XTi replacement will be 12+ MP, that's a given. If they hold onto their ~18 month release cycle, having a 10MP step-child for that long in this market would put Canon in a grave position. Regardless of the actual picture quality, former P&S'ers are brainwashed into the whole MP=quality. Unless they're internet savy & frequent the discussion board/review sites, they'll go for a higher MP camera 9 times outta 10 if they're about the same price.

I suspect Canon knows they'll limit their prospective audience for the 40D when they release a 450D, thus, they'll probably post-pone the 450D's release until later (to give more people time to move into a 40D). I'm thinking we'll see the 5D MkII (or whatever Canon decides to call it) before we see the 450D (XTi-II).

[Tee Why]

Going on tradition from the time that the 300D was announced, the Rebel series have relied on the xxD series for sensing and imaging. The only Rebel to break this trend was the 400D which came out with the 10.1MP sensor before the 40D. XXX D series have always had plastic body, smaller viewfinder, ISO in full stops to 1600 only, 3fps. So I suspect that the new Rebel/450D will have the following features. This is just my speculations.

10.1 MP sensor, updated to be more like 40D, with digic III
(Rebel/xxD have shared same pixel pitch, so I don't think they'll goto 12MP yet on a APS-C sensor, since the 10MP seems to produce about the same or more noise than the 8MP version. Plus if the 12MP sensor was only 6 months away from release, I think they would have introduced it on the 40D)

3inch LCD with Live view that's on all other digic III bodies

ISO 100-1600 in full stops only.

Plastic body with no seals.

3-4fps with a bit more buffer

probably an updated AF system, but not the 9 cross sensors on the 40D

possibly an AF-ON only button like the other digic III body

ISO in viewfinder, menu system much like the 40D, similar size and weight, silver and black body availability, similar ergonomics with no wheel in the back and no top LCD.

I'd doubt it would have custom functions on the mode dial.
Price? probably $100 less than what the XTi was released at ($799) so my guess is at $699.

[VTSHEP1]

With the 400D and the 40D lines converging and dropping in prices, could canon be making room for another line? Maybe a 1000D low level to skim the bottom of the market?

[John_TX]

With the 400D and the 40D lines converging and dropping in prices, could canon be making room for another line? Maybe a 1000D low level to skim the bottom of the market?

I would think instead, they'd be more successful moving the 40D into the previous upper pricing realm the 400D originally occupied (~$800-$850 range).
Then move the 400D into the sub $500 area, (discontinuing the 300D & 350D).
Then release the new 5D MkII around the ~$1600 ballpark.

From a pricing standpoint, these moves would essentially put Nikon out of the market for the time being. I promise you, Canon could do this as well since they make their CMOS sensors in-house (which is a substantial part of the camera price for FF's).

I think ultimately, the 40D line & 5D line will eventually merge (and one will be dropped). It makes no sense to have two different advanced prosumer lines when their FF CMOS costs start coming down. Or, instead of dropping one, the xxD will move up into full-frame. I could see Canon marketing a FF xxD & FF xD against each other (similar to how they had the xxD & xxxD crop cameras). This would essentially relegate the xxxD line into a G9 type w/interchangeable lenses (which would be excellent for consumers & they'll sell by the truckload with decently prices lenses).

[VTSHEP1]

I am afraid to be excited for something like that after this fall.

[jj_photography]

WOW, thanks for all the info.

[ANGUS]

Olympus E330 has perfect AF in Liveview... Why cant canon just copy that? It should have a moveable screen if it has Liveview too.

[j-paka]

long shot but they could merge the 40d and the 400d and make it something lik a 440d (please dont kill my words im a noob with good imagination

[ltcarizona]

First of all, in difference to Big Blue Dodge the XTi is more than an entry level camera. Check out the professional photography awards in the various photography magazines and you see many awards given to XTi users. Besides as any veteran photographer knows it's the lens that makes the difference not the camera. Cheap with top lenses can be expensive with cheap lenses.

That said, there has been all kinds of news leaked out by Canon reps that a new XTi appers to be on the horizon, should be announced on or about Jan 24th just before the PMA. If they do some of the things that are rumored it will kick the 40 in the butt, given the weight difference as an additional advantage.

If you have the money the 5D would be the better choice.

[ANGUS]

If you have the money the 5D would be the better choice.

Really?

[Dragos Jianu]

If you have the money the 5D would be the better choice.

NO WAY!!! This does come as a major surprise... hmmm. Nope. I'd rather get the Rebel and some L primes...sorry

[Phiberglass]

Live view for sure

[bbbig]

I am all for Canon cleaning up their model lines, consolidating some of the models. I think there are way too many models currently - Rebel XTi, 40D, 5D, 1DMk3, 1DsMk3 - and the line-up doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. e.g. going from 1DMk3 (x1.3 FOV/10fps) to 1DsMk3 (FF, 5fps) would NOT be considered an "upgrade". Likewise, many wouldn't consider going from 5D to 1DMk3 an upgrade either.

What they should do is simplify the lines into three models (thus three sensors): consumer (1.6 FOV, 5fps, $600), prosumer (FF@5fps|1.3 FOV@6.5fps, $1200), and "pro" (FF 10fps, $5k). That way, their engineers can focus on less products, instead of diluting the effort into five. Also they would be able to better focus marketing products into three product lines, not five. I think Nikon understands this better than Canon in this regard... THEN, Canon should really focus on leveraging their lens line-up to strengthen their dSLR body position. The prosumer/pro lines should accept EF-S format as well as EF!

I think the challenge for Canon is how to go about 5 product lines into 3... the transition will no doubt piss off some of the previous owners...

[ltcarizona]

Point 1. As said before I would choose the 5D or rather the new 5D over the flimsy XTi and 40D because it is a much better camera for a variety of reasons and many reviews have shown and professionals such as my self will tell you. The three biggest factors being full frame (where you can use the full capabilities of the prime lenses not EF-S), much better build, and the weather sealing. And waiting until you have the money for the better camera is far better in the long run, not that the other two can't take the same pictures with prime lenses, unless you are just a point and shooter and never engage in harsh enviroments.

Point 2. I believe that Canon comes too close to crossing the lines with their models. With some exceptions that could be easily incorporated into the XTi as posed, the XTi would have everything that the 40D has minus the weight and price, and maybe the added factor of weathersealing to make it that all around camera. That would definitely stiffen the competition between Canon and Nikon. Beef up the Xti and get rid of the 40D line for the amateur and serious amateur, and the for intermediate or semi-professional the new 5D or whatever it will be, and for the pro a good 16-25 mp with everthing to equal or exceed Nikon's best camera.

[boxy]

Canon aren't going to ditch the 40D six months into the products life cycle. They may not upgrade it in twelve months time when they release at the 2009 Photokina, but they wouldn't ditch it right now.