feeling bummed and waiting for tougher skin.

[morlia]

Did anyone else question their ability when they first started venturing into paid photography? I got a phone call from a client of mine today. She stated that she really liked the majority of her engagement pictures...but and I quote "am peturbed that we didn't get any really close head only type shots" I asked this client two weeks prior to show me some photos or ideas that she liked through email, and I didn't hear from her. So she showed up at the session with a print out of photos, all of them except one were full length or 3/4 length shots of the couple. She did say while we were shooting that she wanted some head shots. So about 10 out of the 100 she got to pick from were head shots. We are redoing her session. This is my second "do over" in two months.

What I want to know is...is there ever a time when we don't take this stuff personally...or am I just not cut out for the business world?

[Karl C]

Did anyone else question their ability when they first started venturing into paid photography? I got a phone call from a client of mine today. She stated that she really liked the majority of her engagement pictures...but and I quote "am peturbed that we didn't get any really close head only type shots" I asked this client two weeks prior to show me some photos or ideas that she liked through email, and I didn't hear from her. So she showed up at the session with a print out of photos, all of them except one were full length or 3/4 length shots of the couple. She did say while we were shooting that she wanted some head shots. So about 10 out of the 100 she got to pick from were head shots. We are redoing her session. This is my second "do over" in two months.

What I want to know is...is there ever a time when we don't take this stuff personally...or am I just not cut out for the business world?

Look at it this way - it's a learning experience. You might even create a request forms for clients to fill-out indicating what type of shots they want. Also, you might develop a checklist to use in conjunction with their request form. I know some wedding photogs use checklists (either written or from memory).

Hang in there and don't get discouraged!

[Pete]

The more you get complained at for missing things out, the more you'll have to suggest at the start of the next session/client.

Don't be disheartened, it's all part of managing the expectation of the clients.

[Mike]

I just shot my first paid wedding a couple of weeks ago and when I downloaded the photos I had a quick look through. My wife made a couple of comments about background distractions and sharpness of a couple of the shots which I didn't like to hear but have logged firmly into my memory for next time. Also I didn't feel as though I'd got enough head and shoulder shots. It does feel slightly disheartening for sure but it is the best way to learn.

[notapro]

I'm going through that feeling of questioning my ability right now... Since I started last month, I have had 2 out of 3 'professional' shoots that were unsatisfactory to my standards if not the clients. My big problem is confidence during the shoot, and I just don't know how to work on that. Sounds like you are getting the shots you want, though, so I wouldn't take it too personally. You aren't a mind-reader after all.

I keep a file of some of my favourite shots (most un-paid work) and look at them to remind myself that I can do this. I also put on my "I'm way too stubborn to give up" hat and tell myself that I am going to do this until I am where I want to be, no matter what.

I've seen a few shots from you, and I can see that you are more than capable, much better than me, so if I'm sticking it out, you can too!

[cowpix]

You really do need tough skin to be a photographer. Even if you are a seasoned pro, there is always someone that will question your ability or judgment. Usually, they are clueless, but I always listen, because I'm not always perfect! ;)

[morlia]

You really do need tough skin to be a photographer. Even if you are a seasoned pro, there is always someone that will question your ability or judgment. Usually, they are clueless, but I always listen, because I'm not always perfect! ;)

I'm going through that feeling of questioning my ability right now... Since I started last month, I have had 2 out of 3 'professional' shoots that were unsatisfactory to my standards if not the clients. My big problem is confidence during the shoot, and I just don't know how to work on that. Sounds like you are getting the shots you want, though, so I wouldn't take it too personally. You aren't a mind-reader after all.

I keep a file of some of my favourite shots (most un-paid work) and look at them to remind myself that I can do this. I also put on my "I'm way too stubborn to give up" hat and tell myself that I am going to do this until I am where I want to be, no matter what.

I've seen a few shots from you, and I can see that you are more than capable, much better than me, so if I'm sticking it out, you can too!

Thanks for the input guys. And thanks for the compilment. Have any of you had to do reshoots?

[morlia]

Look at it this way - it's a learning experience. You might even create a request forms for clients to fill-out indicating what type of shots they want. Also, you might develop a checklist to use in conjunction with their request form. I know some wedding photogs use checklists (either written or from memory).

Hang in there and don't get discouraged!

Thanks, I think I will have them fill out my forms instead of me. Thanks for the encouragement.

[sblais]

It is understandable that this situation can be frustrating. After all, it makes you doubt your competences, costs you time to do the reshoot and it makes you question your abilities. But like my father likes to say, there is a reason why there are erasers at the end of pencils: people do make mistakes.

But you can make the most of your mistake by learning from it. It may feel as nice as a hard slap in the face, but when you're in a comfortable position with your abilities some time from now, you will certainly see the positive outcome of this situation. Try to turn it in a positive context and try also to use it to prevent future mistakes. I'm sure that you won't repeat this exact mistake anytime soon, but also try to apply it in other contexts. An example relating to this: during one of my recent weddings, I was concentrating so much on improving my artistic couple shots. Romance here, kiss there, try different angles, go wide, go close, etc. In the end, I only had one or two "safe" shots of the couple. You know, the type of shots used for thank you cards and for a frame for grandma...

Remember that we all make mistakes. They don't necessarily make us feel very good immediately, but they help us learn and improve along the way.

[Mum2J&M]

As a total non-pro who had a pro do my wedding, I'm sure there were some photos I would've liked to have - and some I wouldn't have. I think some things are just impossible for you to know unless it's your big day. They got a creative shot of me carrying my shoes, but I hated the way the bottom of them looked. I hate formal shots and the pre-wedding bride getting ready images. Ick. But I also understand that that is what people 'typically' would like. I don't know if I'm making any sense, but I just wanted to say you shouldn't lose any confidence in your own ability because others have their own visions and don't, or can't, express them to you. I don't know how you guys and gals build up your confidence. Any type of art is so subjective. One person will love something and another hate it. Look at it this way - maybe it's not that you weren't the photographer for her, but that she wasn't the client for you. ;)

[Lightstream]

Look at it this way - maybe it's not that you weren't the photographer for her, but that she wasn't the client for you. ;)


So true, thanks for putting that in words.

I am dealing with a client-from-hell situation at work too (different field, not photo related) but it still rings true. We were sent on a job that we weren't cut out or equipped for and naturally the outcome was less than optimal, so hence the blame game.

[JimAskew]

Morlia,

Sorry about this "after the fact disconnect." But dealing with clients is never easy even when things go perfectly.

There was a thread here recently regarding Bride's giving list of poses to their Photographer for execution during the ceremony...this concept was soundly dismissed by most who post here. I did not wade in as I had my asbestos suit the cleaners that week :) But, there ought be an understanding between the client and the PRO regarding expectations. I have shot two engagement sessions this year...in both I used small printed book of poses I have made up from various sources to show the clients and get them to think about what they really want from the shoot. You might consider something similar.

Please do not let this incident discourage you. Learn from it and think about how to better communicate on the next go around. Often I have found that good communications consists of drawing information from the clients as to what they really want.

Let me add that I am not a PRO and do my photography on a Pro Bono basis...photography is my passion but it does not pay the bills. But, I am a hard nosed (and very successful) businessman with 40 years of experience...I have learned that keeping clients happy is totally doable if you keep the communications open and meet mutual expectations.

Good luck, keep photographing, and keep posting :)

[S.Horton]

Some clients complain in any business, no matter what you do.

We have a saying in consulting here -- "When you want to k*ll 'em, bill 'em!"

That translates to this kind of discussion:
"We expected [x]"
"When I hear that, I think there was a misunderstanding from day one. What is it you did not get"
"[anything]"
"Ok, would you like to change what you have now, or do you want something new?"
"[new]"
"Great. Let me quote that and get back to you today."
[silence]
"Uh, I don't think I should have to pay for that, because [whatever]"
"Well, then I'd recc. we sit down, see if we can change something that you already have to meet your needs. Do you want to do that tomorrow?"
"Um, ok..........."
<done>

[or] "No, I want [xxxxxxx] for free"
"When you say that, I think you're asking me for free photography........"
"Uh, well, no, [stutter]"
;)

This is negotiating for your time. The essence is, someone will pay for your time, and it is not you. Or, put another way, your time is the most valuable thing you can give, so be sure it is paid for.

More work and you did NOT screw-up, bill 'em.

You didn't do what you agreed to? Fix it fast and free.

It will take some time, but eventually you'll realize that you're actually in control when you approach it this way.

You'll know the difference.

EDIT: Notice that in that process you control when they talk to you want what is discussed. That puts you in the superior negotiating position right away; it is very subtle, but very important.

[notapro]

Some clients complain in any business, no matter what you do.

We have a saying in consulting here -- "When you want to k*ll 'em, bill 'em!"

That translates to this kind of discussion:
"We expected [x]"
"When I hear that, I think there was a misunderstanding from day one. What is it you did not get"
"[anything]"
"Ok, would you like to change what you have now, or do you want something new?"
"[new]"
"Great. Let me quote that and get back to you today."
[silence]
"Uh, I don't think I should have to pay for that, because [whatever]"
"Well, then I'd recc. we sit down, see if we can change something that you already have to meet your needs. Do you want to do that tomorrow?"
"Um, ok..........."
<done>

[or] "No, I want [xxxxxxx] for free"
"When you say that, I think you're asking me for free photography........"
"Uh, well, no, [stutter]"
;)

This is negotiating for your time. The essence is, someone will pay for your time, and it is not you. Or, put another way, your time is the most valuable thing you can give, so be sure it is paid for.

More work and you did NOT screw-up, bill 'em.

You didn't do what you agreed to? Fix it fast and free.

It will take some time, but eventually you'll realize that you're actually in control when you approach it this way.

You'll know the difference.

EDIT: Notice that in that process you control when they talk to you want what is discussed. That puts you in the superior negotiating position right away; it is very subtle, but very important.


Thanks for posting this. I'm gong to c&p it and save it for future reference. I like that it is firm and assertive without being rude or agressive.

[JimAskew]

Some clients complain in any business, no matter what you do.

We have a saying in consulting here -- "When you want to k*ll 'em, bill 'em!"

...

EDIT: Notice that in that process you control when they talk to you want what is discussed. That puts you in the superior negotiating position right away; it is very subtle, but very important.

IMHO this approach will work, if and only if, you have delivered everything you have contracted for with your client and your contract is not obtuse or vague. Consider this:

Pro: Here are you 60 E-Session photos.
Client: Where are my portrait photos?
Pro: You ordered 60 E-Session photos and I delivered 60.
Client: But, everyone gets portraits?
Pro: You get 60 photos...and I just delivered them.
Etc, etc, etc.
Vague & obtuse contracts can lead to unhappy results.

Clear communications, clear expectations, and a delivery of products according to contractual agreements works best.

[S.Horton]

^^ Absolutely!

Stress on the part about if you screwed it up, and that includes no contract, an unclear contract, or just plain error, fix it, fast, no charge, and apologize.

[Tee Why]

Repeat after me...
You cannot satisfy everyone all of the time.
Now repeat this 100 times.

[ThomasOwenM]

I know it's easy to say don't take it personally and a lot harder to do it, but that's the truth. I checked out your web page. You have some really nice work. Maybe when you're feeling down and discouraged you could look over some of your work that has made you proud. And keep the faith. You're making good things happen.

[morlia]

I know it's easy to say don't take it personally and a lot harder to do it, but that's the truth. I checked out your web page. You have some really nice work. Maybe when you're feeling down and discouraged you could look over some of your work that has made you proud. And keep the faith. You're making good things happen.

wow..thanks. that very sweet of you!

[superdiver]

Remember you are in a "service industry"!

You cant be in this industry and NOT have people like this. I am a dentist, I would LOVE to never see people like this, and the ONLY way that can happen is for me to find a different "service industry".

Not trying to bring you don, just keep in mind that most of the people you will be working with are NOT in their right mind...be ready for these days....LOL




(He says as he wishes he could figure out how to take his own advice.....LOL)

[morlia]

Thanks for all of the support everyone. I just wanted to UPDATE the situation. I booked another shoot for the client today. I began to clarify what she wanted and asked about the close ups that was requesting earlier. She then replied that she didn't just want close ups...she wants to do what we did earlier "in about the same way" she just wants more photos to choose from. In the original 1 hour shoot she got about 100 proofs to choose from. So I am begining to think just like someone said earlier that this just isn't about me, but just the way she is. Thanks again everyone. I will be shooting again and will charge her according to the proofs she chooses for printing.

[S.Horton]

^^ Great job, you have more business.

Good luck! (I don't know how to say that in Canadian) ;)

[Lord_Malone]

Did anyone else question their ability when they first started venturing into paid photography? I got a phone call from a client of mine today. She stated that she really liked the majority of her engagement pictures...but and I quote "am peturbed that we didn't get any really close head only type shots" I asked this client two weeks prior to show me some photos or ideas that she liked through email, and I didn't hear from her. So she showed up at the session with a print out of photos, all of them except one were full length or 3/4 length shots of the couple. She did say while we were shooting that she wanted some head shots. So about 10 out of the 100 she got to pick from were head shots. We are redoing her session. This is my second "do over" in two months.

What I want to know is...is there ever a time when we don't take this stuff personally...or am I just not cut out for the business world?

Chin up. You're a trooper. You'll be a better prepared soldier for the next battle.

[acchildress]

morlia, I design custom homes for builders and owners. Photography is just my expensive hobby. No matter how hard I try I can never completely satisfy some of my customers. They always have to put their "thumb print" on my work. I let them "check" their plans and I revise them. No matter how many times they see them, they always find something else they would have done differently.

Learn what you can from your customers. Do your best and try to give them more that they bargained for. Realize that there are a lot of people out there who have no regard for an artist's feelings and that sometimes people seem to complain because the just have no tact.

[Reefbone]

It's hard to stand firm and even harder to do it without putting people off. The script was good... They say in sales if you can get people to agree to 3 points then you have them in your pocket. Kind of like winning an argument without getting into one. Thats kind of what the script is about. Leading them down a road far enough that it makes it hard for them to turn back without looking like a jerk.

[Reefbone]

morlia, I design custom homes for builders and owners. Photography is just my expensive hobby.....sometimes people seem to complain because the just have no tact.

Or they are manipulative and will try to get away with anything people allow. Bahhh Humbug !

BTW - Welcome to POTN !

[Phocus73]

I know how you feel. I have only done a little "paid" work and everytime I do it I feel like maybe my work isn't strong. I am always worried about the client not liking the final product. As "creative" people, we're probably our own worst critics. It's tough when someone has stuff like that to say. However you need to realize, there are a few people gifted enough to do what you do. Sure, many people can afford expensive photography gear, but can they be creative with it and show the kind of work you do? Overall I've seen your website and work and I can say it's strong. Some people are just really tough to please. But don't get down, look at the majority of your feedback and it's positive. Plus this photography forum shows that other photographers like your work, so professionally other photographers like what you do...that should show you you've got what it takes. Brush it off and keep shooting, you only get better with every shot you take. :)
-Randy

[morlia]

I reshot this weekend and everything went well. I think this lady that I am dealing with is just a little abrupt and her communication comes across cold. I am going to chalk it up as just me being overly sensitive. The next day she sent me an email regarding meeting to discuss her proof choices and choose some photos from her wedding invitations, she made no mention about the latest session. I know for sure that the last session was not only good, but exactly what she asked for.

[Mum2J&M]

I reshot this weekend and everything went well. I think this lady that I am dealing with is just a little abrupt and her communication comes across cold. I am going to chalk it up as just me being overly sensitive. The next day she sent me an email regarding meeting to discuss her proof choices and choose some photos from her wedding invitations, she made no mention about the latest session. I know for sure that the last session was not only good, but exactly what she asked for.

Yeah. I think some people are just like this for whatever reason. There are a lot of people who do business this way - my Dad being one. Working for him was a living hell, lol. Maybe she has other issues and it effects how she does business with others. Good job keeping your confidence up and acing the second shoot. :D