Motorsports panning, what am I doing wrong?

[karusel]

I've been shooting hill climb races twice now and on the first one I found out I didn't have a clue about photography. :oops: On the second I got a bit better, I learned that it's far better for the car to be sharp than a car that is a bit fuzzy and the fore/background is motion blurred. In other words, shutter speeds of no less than 1/180s are required, presuming one would follow a car very very accurately, which is mostly not the case, so 1/250 should remedy that...

But when reviewing images on the computer I was a little disappointed... at 100% the shots didn't look tack sharp. Could it be that I actually need more telephoto, since I did the shooting with the 28-75 tamron @ 60-75mm for most shots? So yeah, I was pretty close to the track. In addition, would it be uncommon to use 100-400L instead of 70-200 for this type of shooting?

I used AF, focused somewhere on the track where the car would pass, turned to MF, used time priority mode at 1/180 or 1/250 and panned the car.

Here is an example, shot in RAW, processed to jpeg with normal settings, no additional post processing, except for recompressing jpeg quality 8 (I think) in photoshop:

http://freeweb.siol.net/avenger/CRW_1766_normal.jpg


EXIF info:
File: CRW_1766.CRW
File size: 5873KB
Image Serial Number: 117-1766
Camera Model: Canon EOS 10D
Camera serial number: 1320504980
Firmware: Firmware Version 2.0.1
Owner: Mihael Kusar
Date/Time: 2004:08:01 13:41:26
Shutter speed: 1/180 sec
Aperture: 13
Exposure mode: Tv
Flash: Off
Metering mode: Partial
Drive mode: Continuous
ISO: 400
Lens: 28,0 to 75,0 mm
Focal length: 75,0mm
AF mode: Manual Focus
Image size: 3072 x 2048
Image quality: Raw
White balance: Auto
Color space: AdobeRGB
Saturation: Normal
Sharpness: Normal
Contrast: Normal
Tone: Normal
Custom Functions:
Default settings

[Murph7355]

I don't think that's too bad?

You need as fast a lens as you can get, and as high quality as you can get. These factors might be limiting you with the lens you have...

A 100-400L would give you much better results I suspect.

It's very difficult to get 100% tack sharp panning photos too remember. So perhaps don't expect perfection. Expect to throw away a lot of frames!

PS This picture took ages to load on broadband - I suspect dial up types will not thank you :)

[PaulB]

What you really need is more practice.
Success in panning does not depend on the focal length of the lens but on precise focus and the ability to follow the car whilst the shutter is open. It is possible to pan with shutter speeds down in the 1/30th. second and longer but you have to pick-up the car well before you release the shutter and continue to follow the car after the shutter has closed.
Use AI AF and let it lock on as you pan, well before pressing the shutter release.
Practice really does make perfect with this technique though.

[Cadwell]

If I were taking that shot I would set the camera up as follows:


AI Servo AF
All 7 focus points active
TV
Shutter speed @1/180 - 1/250

Try and keep the centre focus point on the monocoque just below the drivers head during the pan. You need to pan with the shutter release held half down until you shoot in order to allow the AI servo to track accurately.

As an aside, I find that panning is easier with a heavy lens. Something like the 100-400mm or the Sigma 120-300mm. It's easier to make a smooth pan motion with more mass in the lens and smoothness is important.

[tommykjensen]

What would be the point of using MF ?

And what is "monocoque" ?

[adamsti]

[quote="Cadwell"]If I were taking that shot I would set the camera up as follows:



All 7 focus points active

All 7 points? That's unusual. For the most part the opinion of everybody who shoots action is to use the center point only on the 10D. Have you had better luck using all 7? So far I have only tried using the center and it seems to work fairly well. Not mkII well, but not as bad as some make the 10D out to be.

[Ikinaa]

Karusel... I like the panning you did...
from what I heard and tried, it isn't easy and I think you did very well...

When the car isn't in the very plan parallel to your 'film'-plane(as here, the car comes in in a slight angle), first, your focus isn't on the whole car plus the relative speed of the different parts of the car to you car is slightly varying, that's why you got the back of the car more blurred than the front.
When you're panning, you aren't moving the camera at the exact speed of the car parallel to the way the car moves(except when you're in another car, but I guess you were standing still at the track), but you are making an angular movement, while the car is making a linear movement
The smile sticker before the front wheel is sharp, the back of the car is blurred, both parts have different relative speeds to you...
I hope someone gets my point, I'm not very good at explaining physics and math...

definition of monocoque (http://www.fact-index.com/m/mo/monocoque.html)

[karusel]

Thanx for replies guys!

I disagree on the 'fastest lens you can get' advice though... the aperture is mostly around f/13...

I'll give a try to Cadwell's technique. 8)

You hit the bull's eye Ikinaa, I assumed what you wrote, but thought like.. naaah, can't be.. :mrgreen: Now I think the longer lens is used, the better the panning, because the angular difference is minimal, since you rotate less degrees when panning, therefore pretty much all car is still and at the same distance for the time of the open shutter.

[Cadwell]

And what is "monocoque" ?

The body of the car.

http://www.formula1.com/insight/technicalinfo/11/583.html

[Cadwell]

If I were taking that shot I would set the camera up as follows:



All 7 focus points active

All 7 points? That's unusual. For the most part the opinion of everybody who shoots action is to use the center point only on the 10D. Have you had better luck using all 7? So far I have only tried using the center and it seems to work fairly well. Not mkII well, but not as bad as some make the 10D out to be.

I find using all 7 points works better for panning. I use centre point only for front / rear and angled shots.

I have the assist button programmed to flip the camera back to centre point only focus if I need it in a hurry.

[Mark Kemp]

One other point to remember;

There will always be some up and down motion in the car while you are panning and you won't get rid of that. Everything shakes and vibrates at those speeds. This could still show up as a slight blur especially as the shutter speed drops, so don't necessarily expect the same sharpness as you would on a static object.

[iwatkins]

I do the same as Cadwell, I.e. AI AF, all 7 focus points.

I get a focus lock when the car is far away then start my pan early. This gives plenty of time for the AI AF to get a good track. In addition, if I'm using the 100-400L (switched to mode 2 IS) it also gives the lens time to spin up (can be nearly a second).

I then keep the shutter half depressed until I'm ready to take the shot and then I lightly trip the shutter but keep panning in a smooth movement well after the shutter has closed again, i.e. I follow through, which does seem to help greatly with the horizontal panning.

Cheers

Ian

[RichardtheSane]

Thanx for replies guys!

I disagree on the 'fastest lens you can get' advice though... the aperture is mostly around f/13...

I disagree with your disagreement ;)

While you are stopping down to F13 ish when you shoot, the more light you give the camera while focusing the better AF performance you will get.

Generally speaking that is :)

[karusel]

Wow. I never thought of that. :shock: So I assume 100-400L is not exactly optimal from this point of view...

[Cadwell]

The EF 100-400L is an excellent lens for panning shots. The weight is about right and the IS helps. Use IS mode 2.

[Murph7355]

The 100-400 is also a big quality lens. Noticably crisper than my previous non-L 75-300 IS for instance...

[Mark Kemp]

Here are a few panned shots from last weekend

All autofocus, mostly all three points on the D30

http://www.m-kemp.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/html/rockingham.html

not very large and only 3m pixel of course, but the focus seems ok to me.

Obviously I have a few out of focus ones as well, but they are not on my website :D

[Cadwell]

Here are a few panned shots from last weekend

All autofocus, mostly all three points on the D30

http://www.m-kemp.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/html/rockingham.html

not very large and only 3m pixel of course, but the focus seems ok to me.

Obviously I have a few out of focus ones as well, but they are not on my website :D

So you're the person that goes to Rockingham! :lol: Nice to see someone still does ;)

Actually I think it's a shame that Rockingham can't attract the big series any more. They look destined to fail and it's such a nice facility (although the seats are damned uncomfortable).

[Mark Kemp]

That was my first visit, it did look rather empty. They tried hard, telly and cheerleaders and a concert afterwards The low turnout was especially surprising considering the good weather that weekend, although it started off overcast. It did all seem a bit 'flat' as an event.

On the positive side, I agree it is a nice place and the racing was close. The ASCAR and pickup guys go into turns 3 and 4 at a time, and usually come out again in one piece.

Its also better than I thought for photography (I don't have a press pass) You could get on the roof of the pit garages and take pictures from the inside of the track looking out with no barriers to block the view.

I hope they manage to make a success of it, we haven't had a new track in this country for a very long time and for that alone the bigger series should support it. Didn't the Nascar circus all come over one year? Do they still do that?

[Cadwell]

Oval racing isn't that popular in this country (can't say I like it much myself) but Rockingham does have a nice infield circuit which they used to use for more conventional racing.

I first visited Rockingham in 2001 for their inaugural race meeting

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/valaraukar/rockingham.jpg

and as you can see, the circuit wasn't finished then. Only the turns 1 and 4 grandstands were complete and the place was still very much a building site.

They used to get some major events. They had a contract for the CART series from the US but they couldn't afford to promote it after the first year and they lost it to Brands Hatch. The F3 + GT circus went there for a couple of years but after some serious incidents at the first corner chicane they've refused to go back unless that corner is reprofiled (I can't say I blame them, it was VERY dangerous). The BTCC visited once but got a better offer from Knockhill so once again Rockingham lost out.

All they really have now are their own oval series and the odd club meeting. Nothing that will really bring in the crowds.

Like you said, a shame.

[KennyG]

Sorry guys, I'm back (two hours ago). Vegas couldn't keep me for more than a week. Two 20+ hour three plane flights and the US paranoia with security makes for a long tiring journey. Even had to take my shoes off to get through airport security.

I'll dispute the 7 focus points, you should only ever use one for any type of motorsport shot. The problem with using all 7 for panning is the same as using them for anything, but worse because you are also panning the background in the shot, is you have no control over what grabs focus. The multiple focus points on the 10D are only useful if the camera is still and the subject is moving across the frame, otherwise forget it.

Only use AI servo, never AI focus as it is too slow. Also, AI servo is way, way faster with the centre focus point only, another reason to use just this one. Never use MF unless you have a 300D. Always Tv mode and start off at 1/250. The AF speed of the Tamron is borderline, other than that it is a good lens. The 100-400L is perfect as it also has mode 2 IS for panning. Other than that, just two rules, follow-through and practice.

[daaaveman]

Welcome back Kenny... any interesting stories from your journey?

[CyberDyneSystems]

Just thought I would throw in my 2cents on the 7 AF points..

When it works.. the 7 AF points will allow the Camera's ability to track a moving subject and keep it in focus to work..

If stopped down to f/8 or more.. then assuming the camera maintains a focus lock on the moving subject.. then the the whole car should remain in focus.. (obviously this is a depth of feild equation that varies with subject size, distance, aperture, focal length,.. etc..)

The trouble is that on the 10D the multi point focus tracking is less than stellar. I've had it work absolute wonders on birds in flight.. and I've had it not work at all!

However, birds are much smaller than cars.. and the primary factor is size.. if the bird is too small the focus tracking usually fails. But give me a big fat Swan filling the viewfinder and focus tracking can work wonders.

I'd definately try both.. and depending on your distance and f/stop (ie how much depth of feild you have) you may like the results of all 7 AF points.

[midnightvue]

Here's a great e-article on motorsports shooting:
http://www.iphotoforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5322

[KennyG]

Welcome back Kenny... any interesting stories from your journey?

Nearly got strip searched until they found it was the zipper on my jeans setting the alarm off. Some nice photos down at Freemont watching the display. Drank far too much (well, at 105F you have to, yes?), laughed at the prices in Vegas camera stores and never had my camera gear checked once by customs/security. Not many fat people in Vegas and clothes seem to be as little and small as you can get away with. Bought myeslf a new stetson - just waiting for the comments at the UK race circuits.

I'm over in the US again later this year, but this time for some motorsport photography on an assignment. I'll spill the beans when I get the OK, but it is very interesting to say the least, an offer I could not refuse.

[Rebel]

Hi Kenny, saw your pics on your website - fascinating stuff! Would you say that the 100-400L is your favorite lens for this type of photography? I'm thinking of buying one but its so darn expensive! Also, the one I'm looking at is second hand and about 3 years old. Is there a 'lifespan' for the IS system? Do they wear out? That seems to be my biggest concern. the used price is about $1,000 USD. Appreciate any feedback from you or anyone with experience with this lens.

[Cadwell]

...

[Cadwell]

Would you say that the 100-400L is your favorite lens for this type of photography? I'm thinking of buying one but its so darn expensive! Also, the one I'm looking at is second hand and about 3 years old. Is there

The 100-400L is a great lens for motorsport photography as long as the light is good. From your location I guess you don't have much trouble with poor light, but over here in Britain we do and there are many occasions where I have had to go to the bag for something faster in order to get the shots.

[Rebel]

The 100-400L is a great lens for motorsport photography as long as the light is good. From your location I guess you don't have much trouble with poor light, but over here in Britain we do and there are many occasions where I have had to go to the bag for something faster in order to get the shots.[/quote]

Have you ever had trouble with the IS feature? do they wear out? The worse thing I can think of is that I shell out the $ and the IS function packs up. Is this a concern?

[Cadwell]

Have you ever had trouble with the IS feature? do they wear out? The worse thing I can think of is that I shell out the $ and the IS function packs up. Is this a concern?

I haven't had the 100-400L for that long so I can't really help you with this. I guess like any mechanical component wear and tear will eventually take it's toll but the build quality of Canon L series lenses is very high.

[robertwgross]

I haven't had my 100-400mm lens for that long either.

Even with the camera turned off, when I am walking around, I keep thinking about those little IS gyroscopes clattering around, and it isn't a pleasant thought.

---Bob Gross---

[Rebel]

I haven't had the 100-400L for that long so I can't really help you with this. I guess like any mechanical component wear and tear will eventually take it's toll but the build quality of Canon L series lenses is very high.

I just picked it up and it has fungus marks inside. The owner said he'd have it professionally cleaned for me first. Is that a big deal? It hasn't shown up in photos yet, although I've only shot some really poorly lit household stuff because its night time over here. I bring it to the track tomorrow. I will get to use it in its proper element.

[KennyG]

Three years old for the 100-400L isn't a problem, it is still an infant in L lifespan. Where you are I can imagine the problem with fungus due to the humidity. Always store it with some Silacagel to absorb any moisture and renew the packets every month or so. A friend who lives in Malaysia has one of those machines for packing frozen food that extracts the air from freezer bags then welds the seam and he keeps his lenses/cameras in them until needed.

As others have said, the 100-400L works best when there is enough light. Mine has paid for itself at least five times over, so you can say it is good for the job. I used it on the grid the other week to get some real close-up shots from no more than 3m away from my subjects. I would like to see Canon produce a faster zoom ( F2.8 ) in that sort of range but I would imagine it would be very expensive, although it would sell well to indoor sports photogs.

[Rebel]

[quote="KennyG"]Three years old for the 100-400L isn't a problem, it is still an infant in L lifespan.

Great! I'm off to the track now! I'll post a pic tonight!

[Rebel]

I tried out the 100-400 lens. Although it was really good, I couldn't justify the $. I kept thinking that the leap in image quality was not substantial enough from my current lens set. My question now is: I plan on picking up a 28-135IS lens for walking around. This has a one stage image stabilizer and someone told me that it wont work with panning shots. Is this true? Do I need the 2 mode for panning? HELP!

Here's a sample pic from the 100-400L

http://www.pbase.com/image/32491514/original

This was shot at 100mm 1/30@f/4.5

[Cadwell]

As far as I am concerned the EF 28-135mm is firmly in the chocolate teapot category when it comes to motorsport. It's too slow, too short, too soft and it takes too long to focus. I have one, I hate it and I never use it.

If the 100-400mm is out of your price range then get yourself an EF 70-200mm f/4.0L (no IS but that's not really an issue at 200mm with typical motorsport shutter speeds) plus a 1.4xTC for the longer shots if you want. Don't waste your money on the 28-135mm like I did.

[KennyG]

I totally agree with Cadwell. If you are on a budget, then the 70-200 F4L is the ebst choice you can make. Stay well clear of the 28-135 for motorsport or other action photography.

Cadwell, not been a bad day today, picked up the new camera and, by perchance, it is my birthday too.

[Cadwell]

Cadwell, not been a bad day today, picked up the new camera and, by perchance, it is my birthday too.

Well then, it seems double congratulations are in order :D :D

p.s. Your signature is looking much better now ;)

[Rebel]

Thanks for the tip! I was dead set on picking up a 28-135IS until your post. I wasn't really planning on using it for action shots but more as a 'walk around' lens. Travel, snap shots, kiddie parties and the like. Do you still feel the same way under those conditions?

By the way, on the strength of your suggestions, I just placed an order this morning for the 70-200 f/4. I did this because I've seen both of your portfolios (Caldwell & Kenny G)and I think that speaks for itself. Thanks again.

[Aylwin]

Thanks for the tip! I was dead set on picking up a 28-135IS until your post. I wasn't really planning on using it for action shots but more as a 'walk around' lens. Travel, snap shots, kiddie parties and the like. Do you still feel the same way under those conditions?

Travel, snap shots, kiddie parties and the like: that's exactly my type of photography. :D Under those conditions, I think the 28-135 IS is pretty good. I've taken some decent photos with it and it used to be my main walk around lens. That is, until I got the 17-40L. Because of the 1.6 crop factor, I found that the wider lens fitted my needs better. I generally take wider shots when travelling. And parties and such are usually indoors where I need wider angles in limited space.

I've recently traded in my 28-135 IS (and 75-300 IS) for the 70-300 DO IS. Now that's one lens worth considering for it's compact size and decent image quality. Probably won't cut it though for motorsports and other high-speed action. :roll:

[Mark Kemp]

I also have the 28-135 IS. You are correct about the panning, you have to turn IS off at it is mode 1 only on this lens.

I do use it for a walk around lens and it is fine. It is not quite L quality, but I have the 100-400 and the 17-40, so it neatly fills the gap. To get L glass from between 40mm and 100mm you would need at least 2 zooms, one of which is quite big, or 3 or 4 primes, or a massive superzoom. Personally I am prepared to accept the loss in quality for the convenience.

In any case I don't think its particularly soft or slow focussing (but I only use a D30 so maybe I will change my mind when I get a 1Dmk2) Its better than my old 'consumer grade' gold band lenses in both respects. I have used it a little for motorsport, but mostly motocross where you can get quite close so it wasn't at the 135 end. I wasn't particularly concerned about the image quality on these occasions, but I would say, if you do use it for motorsport, try to keep it fairly well stopped down. So that really means pan shots (IS off) and sunny days, for best quality.