Of Interest to Photographers and US Citizens Alike

[nighthawk]

I read this article from a photographer and I'm left wondering who the REAL terrorists are.

http://69.93.170.43/

Please read it through. It is a chilling example of what has happened to our Constitution.

All the more reason why US Citizens MUST get out and vote in this election.

I can't even express how angry I am right now!

[Digital Prophet]

I feel for this guy. I know what it is like to be continuously hassled by security when I am trying to take a picture.

I have been approached on at least 10 occassion by police and security guards who want my identification, number, rank, etc. At first I was a very polite and cooperative person. I was even scared. If some guy in house shoes with a flashlight said "show me" i was shipping it out fast.

But that really has come to an end. I have been approached by everyone from construction foremen to a guy "saying" he was a federal agent. And frankly I don't cooperate anymore. Unless a uniformed city/county/state office asks me I don't give it up. I politey inform them that I'm not required to show my identification to any private citizens regardless if they represent the property that I am on or not.

Now if I am at a mall or parking garage or some other provately owned property and they ask me to leave I have to pack my stuff up and go. And I do. But if I am in a public park I and am asked to leave I politely tell them that they don't have the authority to do that. Then I politely invite them to stay and discuss photography. And maybe see some shots if I can get some good ones.

If they decide to call the police that is fine. I politely inform them that is thiere option but that I can't promise that I will be here when they return. If I plan to relocate in the facility I tell them so. If I plan to leave I again invite them to stay. And most often people choose the second option.

But there are the times that polite doesn't work.

I have been told everything from "citizen's arrest" to "security detainment". But in reality they don't have the right to do that either. Ask me to leave a private facility and I will. If you try to detain me and you are not a cop, then you are attempting a kidnapping. When I tell them that they can keep me here but when the police arrive and see that I am not a threat that it's going to be me that files charges and then politely invite them to stay they normally just leave.

Don't get me wrong. The police have been called. A few times. And, at least in Texas, when a police officer asks for your ID you don't have too much choice. So I give it to them and answer thier questions. And the one question that every officer that has come to the scene has asked is "Why didn't you just leave?" And I tell them, I haven't done anything wrong. I tried to explain what I was doing, invited them to stay even offered to show them if they were nice. But I don't think that one citizen has to right to catalog another's ID for private record and/or display." Then I politely ask if the officer would like to stay and discuss photography while I finish.

In the end it is paranoia not racism. While it is true that my pedigree has the word "hispanic" all over it I look whiter than Dilbert. So it isn't profiling that sets the alarms off. It is just the whole culture of "Cops related I wanna be on the evening news" mixed by the "Napolean related I am little person who wants to exercise some small amount of power I think I have" complex. Interestingly enough, when The Man is friendly I have never once failed to find that the person who called security was a woman. I'm not being sexist, I am just stating the fact.

I feel for the guy. I really do. But it is my advice that the three steps are: be polite, inform them of your right, invite them to stay and maybe see a shot or two. You would be amazed at how good the "stay and see" works. But in the end, sometimes the cops come.

Oh and one last tip. Do yourself a gargantuan favor and park a good distance from any place you might be arrested. If you get arrested there is a very good chance of your car being searched, impounded and really lord only knows what else. Plus, the whole "I don't wanna tell my name" thing becomes pointless when they can just write your license plate down.

Do I advocate causing trouble. Well maybe yes and maybe no. But in this case, no. But I do believe that in a climate of fear that it is imperative to not be passive. We have rights as photographer. We have rights as Americans. Regardless of how much legislation or fear tries, the one thing that strips us of our rights is our lack of exercising them.

- Digital Prophet -

[Barb42]

Everyone should vote...but making angry decisions based on one incident is overboard. I suspect you will be making the same vote after reading this that you were going to prior. :wink:

Understand that First Responders are a bit nervous right now - they hate picking up body parts and tend to get a bit too excited from time to time. All this guy had to do was call the local Police Chief and put in a complaint. There are proceedures for this kind of thing. Its about proper training, not the Patriot Act (you might actually want to print out a copy and read it).

Now, breath deeply and focus - the sky is NOT really falling.

[Mitchkitter]

ditto what barb said

READ the patriot act.

While i'd love to be able to go take pictures anywhere i'd go, i'd much rather be stopped by some of my city's finest, and questioned, than have anohter 9-11 happen in my backyard.

VOTE!, but be an informed voter, and relise there is spin towards certian canidates in the media. Question what you hear.

[nighthawk]

I want to start by saying, I realize this is a bit off-topic but in a lot of ways it's not. If we can't express our art without the danger of being harrassed or arrested it affects photographers and photography. I can see these kinds of actions if he were near a miltary instalation or if the are were marked "no photography" or if the ranger he talked to before shooting had told him "no", but this is too much. Eight people called to a scene where someone was calmly taking pictures?

Everyone should vote...but making angry decisions based on one incident is overboard. I suspect you will be making the same vote after reading this that you were going to prior. :wink:

Yes, My decision for this election was made shortly after the last one actually. :D And I do not make decisions like that lightly or based on one incedent. This example just brings home what can and does happen n a daily basis in the name of "protecting" us.

Understand that First Responders are a bit nervous right now - they hate picking up body parts and tend to get a bit too excited from time to time. All this guy had to do was call the local Police Chief and put in a complaint. There are proceedures for this kind of thing. Its about proper training, not the Patriot Act (you might actually want to print out a copy and read it).

As a matter of fact I HAVE read it. Stephen King novels scare me less.

Now, breath deeply and focus - the sky is NOT really falling.

I am not saying the sky is falling, but the old policeman's line of "move along folks, nothing to see here" doesn't work on me.

[Digital Prophet]

You know, without starting a "American/Unamerican" debate (and I can see it coming) I have to agree with nighthawk.

The Patriot Act is a travesty and what is happening to our country is a million times worse than 9/11. I said that last part, not him.

I have my opinion and people have thier's. I don't think that a debate on the finer points is really necessary. Then again, I don't know that it's not. You can get all Michael Moore on the matter either way. But I do know that I will keep grooving my way and I assume others will do the same.

However, when your groove stops my groove, we got a problem.

- Digital Prophet -

[Tom W]

I'd like to hear the other side of the story. The guy that wrote it understandably has "a dog in this race". In other words, his opinion is most likely biased.

[neil_r]

Prompted by this thread, I have just read the patriot act.. Land of the free... wow

N

[nighthawk]

Prompted by this thread, I have just read the patriot act.. Land of the free... wow

N

Another pair of open eyes! That in itself makes all the flak I'm taking in other venues on this subject worth it! :D

[IndyJeff]

This was so important that it had to be posted in two forums?

Rediculous......

[nighthawk]

Yes. It is. You'll note that I didn't post it on every one of them. Just the open dissussion ones.

Fact is, I don't read ALL the groups, I assume most don't.

[Penguin_101_1]

Ok good. I just posted in the other thread in general and I thought I was seeing two posts. I am. :shock: :D :lol:

[BoySpot]

Some who will read this will agree with the original posts and be glad to read them. Other, who don't agree will be upset to see something against their views appearing. They are equally welcome to that perspective since it is a free country and I don't wish to be flamed for saying one or the other. I know my views and they shall remain mine.

I do wonder why IndyJeff was so upset about it appearing in two forums. I would have thought a debate on the rights and wrongs of civil liberties and the need for law enforcement was slightly more important than the latest rumor about the next lens to be announced at Photokina or whether E-TTL works or not. Lets keep some perspective in our lives, eh?

If you don't like what is said, put your view. That's what free speech is all about so make the most of it. I'll go now since I am bound to have offended someone somehow.

[IndyJeff]

Oh I wasn't upset, I just think it is stupid to post the same thread on two different forums. Nighthawk, before you think I am calling you stupid, I am not, or at least that is not my intentions.

[Penguin_101_1]

Oh I wasn't upset, I just think it is stupid to post the same thread on two different forums. Nighthawk, before you think I am calling you stupid, I am not, or at least that is not my intentions.

I thought I was losing it. :lol:

[bigsexy]

You know what bothers me? People that are completely out of touch with reality and then make statements as if they are some sort of authority. I love my freedoms just as much as the next person, but if a cop making a security check keeps me or someone else, or several thousand someone elses from being killed then so be it. It always amazes me when I fly to or from America when people complain about the delays at security. What's a better alternative? Take everybody at their word that they're not a terrorist? I really wish we could do that. I equate todays security environment to going to the beach. If you knew what was in the water, you'd never swim. So instead of getting pi@#ed at some cop for doing his job, maybe you should thank him for protecting you and all of us. Just my thoughts, sorry if I offended anyone. Love Dave.

[nighthawk]

Oh I wasn't upset, I just think it is stupid to post the same thread on two different forums. Nighthawk, before you think I am calling you stupid, I am not, or at least that is not my intentions.

I never thought any one was calling me stupid or attacking me in any way. You have your opponion, I have mine. Honestly I was never expecting this to become such a debate. I just thought of it as "photography news" and that people should be aware. I never expected this.

[Digital Prophet]

So instead of getting pi@#ed at some cop for doing his job, maybe you should thank him for protecting you and all of us.

I think that it is seriously dillusional to think that the "hightened state of seciruity" and detainment of "persons of interest" has done anything to protect you. Much like laws that concern money, only those that really don't have anything to do with it (i.e. poor people) are affected. Whereas the people who should be targeted (i.e. rich people) simply avoid the effects of those laws with minimal effort.

All the goverment, any government, has done is throw Evian bottles at a potential forest fire. And in the mean time regualr citizens suffer the consequence. Meanwhile the people that are truely threats avoid detection and sit around taking notes from American movies and telelvision shows that are hell bent on feeding and profiting from this age of paranoia.

And don't even deny or get me started on what a money boon this post 9/11 era has been for some companies. And even though I could, I am not talking about Haliburton.

So pardon me for not wanting to be harrassed needlessly while in a park taking pictures of a strategically located tree. Because lord knows that my photo is by far a greater threat to Western Civilization than oh child abuse, drunk driving, gang activity, spousal abuse or rape.

- Digital Prophet -

[Digital Prophet]

Ok you know what? I can admit that I went a bit too far and fell overboard with the "dillusional" comment. It was rude and I apologize.

That is exactly why I really try to not get into debates or arguments on this matter (not that anyone here was argumentative). This is one of those topics I really feel strongly about and I let myself get out of hand. And that is totally hypocritical.

What can I say? We all go balistic sometimes.

- Digital Prophet -

[nighthawk]

Ok you know what? I can admit that I went a bit too far and fell overboard with the "dillusional" comment. It was rude and I apologize.

That is exactly why I really try to not get into debates or arguments on this matter (not that anyone here was argumentative). This is one of those topics I really feel strongly about and I let myself get out of hand. And that is totally hypocritical.

What can I say? We all go balistic sometimes.

- Digital Prophet -

I just want to say again, that I never intended this to spark such debate. I appreciate everyone's input and I DO mean everyone! Especially those who don't see things the way I do. It's an excelent way to gain perspective on a subject rather than simple complaining to people who agree with you.

I want you to know that even though we may differ philosophically, I still respect your work in this forum. Many of the people who have shared have exhibited magnificent photography and offer spot-on critiques to those who ask. I hope this doesn't affect our interactions in the rest of the board, my hope is that people have learned from what was shared. I know I have.

Thank you.

[John_T]

Just do us a favor in the future and don't double post, or maybe we won't buy in to your claims of innocence. :roll:

[Penguin_101_1]

Just do us a favor in the future and don't double post, or maybe we won't buy in to your claims of innocence. :roll:

[Mitchkitter]

So question:

For all those whom think that:
being pulled over by the police for being suspicious,
being doubble checked at the airport,
checking your bags before you go into a large stadium, or event complex,
or even running background checks on international travelers.

If you think this is obsurd, Tell me how to fix it.
What will YOU do to make it safe for me to get on a plane, without intruding on some civil liberties.
Whom will you vote for that has a plan for things like this? John Kerry certianly doesn't. I challenge you all to visit www.johnkerry.com, Click on "homeland security", and find me somewhere in that mess of gossip, and rehtorick, information on how He will secure this country.

It's simply not there.
Politics are amusing.

*giggles* did you guys hear about that new 4000mm IS USM lense?! /gossip off.

[Penguin_101_1]

So question:

For all those whom think that:
being pulled over by the police for being suspicious,
being doubble checked at the airport,
checking your bags before you go into a large stadium, or event complex,
or even running background checks on international travelers.

If you think this is obsurd, Tell me how to fix it.
What will YOU do to make it safe for me to get on a plane, without intruding on some civil liberties.
Whom will you vote for that has a plan for things like this? John Kerry certianly doesn't. I challenge you all to visit www.johnkerry.com, Click on "homeland security", and find me somewhere in that mess of gossip, and rehtorick, information on how He will secure this country.

It's simply not there.
Politics are amusing.

*giggles* did you guys hear about that new 4000mm IS USM lense?! /gossip off.

BUSH!

He needs to close all borders and then I will be really happy!

[BoySpot]

Won't that make it a bit tricky to get all of that nice Canon equipment into the country?

[Penguin_101_1]

Won't that make it a bit tricky to get all of that nice Canon equipment into the country?

Not trade, people.

[neil_r]

Won't that make it a bit tricky to get all of that nice Canon equipment into the country?

Not trade, people.

A xenophobic on an international forum that is not even hosted in the US.

The irony is wonderful, the sentiment sucks….

N

[Skeeter4]

Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither. - Benjamin Franklin

I don't wish to start a heated discussion but I for one think it's a shame we are a nation that lives in fear. I choose not to be afraid and I find myself getting increasing frustrated at the hoops we're made to jump through for our own so called "safety/ security". I choose not to sacrifice my freedom and will resist anyone trying to take them away. Such as my freedom to take a picture at a public place of a public landmark.

DISCLAIMER: This is my personal opinion and I in no way wish to force this opinion on anyone or think anyone should agree with me. :wink:

[Tom W]

Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither. - Franklin D. Roosevelt


Great saying, but I don't think it can be attributed to FDR.

[s00pcan]

Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither. - Franklin D. Roosevelt


Great saying, but I don't think it can be attributed to FDR.

Benjamin Franklin.

[Skeeter4]

rechecked and you are correct - edited post to give proper credit - thanks

[Jmurman]

I take a slightly different thoiught to all of this. I live about 60 miles from DC, 180 from NY. I am in the backyard of 9/11. After going through almost 3 years of this I have come to understand that we are at war.

The guy who was "stopped" at Ballard Locks was done so for a particular reason, the Locks are a possible Tactical target....just like Martin State airport near where I live.

Unfortunately we live in a time when this s**t is going on, maybe if we lived in the 40's our photographic freedom would be easier...I doubt it though. Imagine if any Asian were to stop and photograph the Golden Gate bridge in the 40's?

The latest news stories are that a computer was found with hundreds of photos of Financial Institutions. Knowing that in the past these operations have been years in the planning stages, can you blame them for stepping up security?

If you are upset at the Patriot Act then you need to vote out the people responsible...Repubs AND Dems alike...as for me (my .002) I think our current Pres is doing a damn fine job at keeping these guys from commiting their murders here in America.

[BoySpot]

This isn't the first time there has been terrorism in the world. For those who lived in the UK during the 70s and 80s, you will remember exactly what it is like to have to deal with the potential for terrorist attacks without turning your life upside down. Vigilance does not require you to give up everything you value. Don't et fear take over your life. There is enough to worry about as it is.

PS: The UK didn't declare war on the country that was providing the majority of the funding for those terrorists.

[John_T]

...don't mean to correct anybody, but the "War on Terrorism" under many other names has been going on for decades, carried out by all the government agencies responsible, not only those of the US.

Politicians tend to ignore their warnings, make a fuss when things happen and take credit for the successes. In this respect I think you will find no Pres or politician has done a good job. They just read the reports looking for political capital, or where to distance themselves and lay blame. The services and agencies have the duty but are permitted no active voice.

[PhotosGuy]

The services and agencies have the duty but are permitted no active voice.

And, I think thet they're frustrated because they realize that a half-dozen guys with the equivalent of chain saws could bring this country to it's knees in about 2 hours. Remember last years blackout in August?

[Claire]

Hm, interesting text and posts by forum members. As I don't know the legal issues about who can ask for your ID and when, I probably shouldn't get into that. This at least has made me be prepaired when I go to the US next year.

I don't mind extra security at airports, buildings and what not's. It's for my protection. I don't understand the debate in Sweden about cameras at schools, buildings and so on. I don't mind it. Don't feel it's inviding my privacy as it has a security purpose.

Now, if someone in Sweden came up to me and asked me to provide an ID when taking a photo I'd probably react by being surprised and a bit scared. Have I done something wrong? Recently I've taken time to both print and read up on my rights though. Even spoken to a photo editor and person dealing with the legal issues. I know my rights in Sweden. I can argue with anyone who wants to if needed be.

If I get approached in the US though, I don't know my legal rights and most likely I'll provide them with the ID (if I carry it on me). Reading this student's text though, I had already figured out he must look either black or middle eastern after half the text. To me it all sounds like the usual "pull over, you look suspicious" thing that happens now and then. I'm not surprised this has happened. Not at all. I may not like it, but I'm not surprised.
It is a fact that after 9/11 people all over the world are more suspicious of middle eastern looking men. I can't even imagine what it's like in the US. Every time period will have a nationality or "race" that'll be looked at with extra suspiscion. At this time and age it's middle eastern people and that's due to the happenings in the world. The whole world is a bit jumpy about terrorism acts right now and the US naturally more than other countries.

I guess I'm happy I live in Sweden. At least nobody gives a damn about this country... lol

[John_T]

My advice would be, when confronted by authorities anywhere in the world, with few exceptions, to:

1. Politely and friendlily llsten to what they have to say,

2. Very politely and friendlily ask them to show you their badge or ID proving their authority,

3. Quite happily and innocently show them your ID,

4. Answer their questions and quite happily and innocently show them what you are doing and why,

5. Even if they are unfriendly and gruff, don't lose your cool and remain friendly and polite,

6. If they say you must come with them, and they have properly proven their authority, do as they say, but ask if you are voluntarily coming with them, or are you being arrested. Simply, with no rancor, and certainly not spouting your rights. Do_not_resist_arrest.

7. Never lose your cool, always take your time, take a pause and think carefully when answering a question, while keeping a clear mental picture of the whole chain of events. Knowing you have done nothing wrong and have nothing to hide, you have no reason not to cooperate.

8. If you are summoned to the police station, when you get there say that you want to call a friend, a relative or lawyer to be in your company for any further transactions. Claiming your rights will only annoy them, and won't change anything anyway.

9. An experienced officer will know in two minutes whether there is something to pursue or not. An in experienced and/or zealous officer may hope you are a terrorist he can catch and make himself a hero, or at least have a break from his boring life.

10. Know that the outcome depends on your behavior, not your rights. Save yourself a lot of grief, annoyance and trouble by just keeping your cool and your feet on the ground.

[Tom W]

10. Know that the outcome depends on your behavior, not your rights. Save yourself a lot of grief, annoyance and trouble by just keeping your cool and your feet on the ground.

Having had a little "experience" with law enforcement in my younger years, I can say with a great deal of authority that this is the most important step. Getting mouthy will guarantee less-than-ideal treatment, even from the best of cops. Get one with "rookie-itis" and you'll stand a chance of getting "Rodney-Kinged". If you know any police officers, they might be able to shed some light on this subject.

[John_T]

( :twisted: what were you up to Tom?)

I forgot one thing:

11. Don't be over-forthcoming with information, bubble verbosely, give long explanations or let your imagination go wild. Just answer questions calmly and completely. If anybody gets unfriendly, let it be them, and don't get sucked into it. If they try to provoke you, just silently look at them until they say something civil you can reply to. Don't forget you are simply and innocently pursuing your hobby and that's all, even if they say your brother is a dirty pinko communist, your father is a drunk, your mother is one of Osama bin Laden's mistresses and Sweden is the land of porno and sin.

If anything should happen, which it most likely won't, more than likely you will be addressed with charm, humor and respect, interest in what you are doing and the cop will have three cousins in Stockholm and ask you if you know them. :lol:

[Cadenza]

BUSH!

He needs to close all borders and then I will be really happy!


The level of misinformation in this statement is laughable.

Bush in fact has done much to ease the admission of temporary
Mexican workers, which the U.S. agricultural economy is
heavily dependent upon. What has Bush done for domestic
security? Seizing upon paranoia and fear, he made his friends
rich again, with Dick Cheney passing out lucrative military and
airport security equipment contracts. Halliburton is but the tip
of the iceberg.

Sure, security is needed, but most of the security staff are
bored to death, so the go after the easiest and most obvious:
the helpless law abiding citizen who happens to be taking
photos in the wrong place at the wrong time. When it comes
to finding actual terrorists, Homeland Security issues press
releases listing all the difficulties of this process amidst
claims of impotence.

Beyond that, the only thing that they came up with is the
useless, wasteful idiotic color coded alert warning system,
something a sophomore in college would have gotten a
B-minus if turned in as public policy exercise.

And Bush has alienated the whole world, spent all the
credibility of the U.S. so carefully earned thru the Nixon,
Carter, and even Reagan administrations as a fair global
player after the fall of the Berlin Wall. The whole world
hates us now, ask yourself: what happened?

The damage the Bush administration has done this this
country and the world can hardly be understimated.
And I haven't even gotten to the economy yet. Weren't
we supposed to get cheap gas for saving Kuwait and
liberating Iraq from Saddam? What happened?

[Tom W]

( :twisted: what were you up to Tom?)

It boils down to 3 factors:

1. I enjoyed driving in a spirited fashion (still do though perhaps not as "spirited")

2. As a young adult, "Smokey and the Bandit" was a favorite movie.

3. While I found it wasn't real hard to outrun the Chevrolet Impala, I had a difficult time outrunning the Motorola.

I forgot one thing:

11. Don't be over-forthcoming with information, bubble verbosely, give long explanations or let your imagination go wild. Just answer questions calmly and completely. If anybody gets unfriendly, let it be them, and don't get sucked into it. If they try to provoke you, just silently look at them until they say something civil you can reply to. Don't forget you are simply and innocently pursuing your hobby and that's all, even if they say your brother is a dirty pinko communist, your father is a drunk, your mother is one of Osama bin Laden's mistresses and Sweden is the land of porno and sin.

If anything should happen, which it most likely won't, more than likely you will be addressed with charm, humor and respect, interest in what you are doing and the cop will have three cousins in Stockholm and ask you if you know them. :lol:

Yep - in other words, don't tell them why they should arrest you.

BTW, is Sweden really the land of porno and sin? ;)

[Tom W]

The level of misinformation in this statement is laughable.

Bush in fact has done much to ease the admission of temporary
Mexican workers....deleted for brevity......What happened?

If you're going to thrust your political opinion into this forum, the least you could do is refrain from quoting the talking points of the DNC.

[Cadenza]

If you're going to thrust your political opinion into this forum, the least you could do is refrain from quoting the talking points of the DNC.

Don't misquote me, the DNC actually showed
a lot of restraint, and was much kinder
and respectful of Bush than I'd have been
inclined to be. It is a fact that DNC actually
disinvited some of the more leftist speakers
at the convention.

Besides, it was the BUSH supporters around
here who started thrusting his name upon
the forum, glorified in 24 pt. size.

Anyhow, chasing obvious photographers
is just plain dumb as a security measure.
Terrorists would not be so blatant,
carrying a big lens SLR in broad daylight.
It's just good old goverment burocracy;
they need to justify all that defense spending.

[Tom W]

If you're going to thrust your political opinion into this forum, the least you could do is refrain from quoting the talking points of the DNC.

Don't misquote me, the DNC actually showed
a lot of restraint, and was much kinder
and respectful of Bush than I'd have been
inclined to be. It is a fact that DNC actually
disinvited some of the more leftist speakers
at the convention.

I can't imagine any sane person being to the left of the DNC, but that's just my opinion.

Besides, it was the BUSH supporters around
here who started thrusting his name upon
the forum, glorified in 24 pt. size.

Which was probably a bad idea in itself, I will agree. But I'm not sure that responding with a long list of unsubstantiated BS is the best way to answer it.

Anyhow, chasing obvious photographers
is just plain dumb as a security measure.
Terrorists would not be so blatant,
carrying a big lens SLR in broad daylight.
It's just good old goverment burocracy;
they need to justify all that defense spending.

This thread has made some weird turns, but I don't think that the autobiographic "report" of someone's alleged encounter with the Seattle police department has a whole lot to do with defense spending. Government bureaucracy, yes, but on a more local level.

[IndyJeff]

If you're going to thrust your political opinion into this forum, the least you could do is refrain from quoting the talking points of the DNC.


Anyhow, chasing obvious photographers
is just plain dumb as a security measure.
Terrorists would not be so blatant,
carrying a big lens SLR in broad daylight.
It's just good old goverment burocracy;
they need to justify all that defense spending.

Yeah why would anyone take pictures of possible targets before launching a terrorist attack?

doesn't happen (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/8/5/122313.shtml)

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan – Pakistan gave British authorities images of London's Heathrow Airport and other sites that were found on the computers of two al-Qaida fugitives arrested last month, intelligence officials said Thursday.

Maps, photographs and other details of possible targets in the United States and Britain were found on computers belonging to Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani - a Tanzanian indicted for his role in the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in East Africa

A Lahore-based intelligence official involved in the investigation after the July 13 arrest of Khan said his computer contained photographs of Heathrow airport, as well as pictures of underpasses that run beneath several buildings in London.

Yeah anyone thinking terrorists would take pictures of targets is being a fool for believing that.

[Belmondo]

It is clear from everything that has happened thus far in both campaigns, and judging from the amount of money that is yet to be spent between now and November, that things are only going to get uglier, nastier, more divisive, and more embarrassing to all of us who believe democracy is a superior form of government.

At this point, I don't think it matters a whit which one of the parties prevail in November. Our future is largely out of our own control right now, and whoever sits in the oval office is going to find himself reacting to world events, and not dictating them.

So if it's Kerry, or Bush, or even Nader, I don't see a great deal of difference. It's Dumb and Dumber all over again. You can decide for yourself which is which.

In light of all this, there is at least one significant reason I'm happy I live in California; California will automatically go for any Democrat they run. I’m not particularly happy that there’s such a lopsided Democratic majority in the state, but it does make it unnecessary to devote even minimal mental energy to the current national debate over the presidency. In fact, because of the Electoral College, we voters who don’t automatically vote party lines will have no voice at all in this election. Democrats can take the state for granted, and Republicans will ignore it because they know they have no chance here.

One very positive side to the fact that California is not considered a 'swing state' is that the amount of money spent locally on Kerry/Bush television ads will be minimal. The local and statewide races will still be there, but the presidential race is already decided out here. Most of what we see will be the MoveOn.org hit pieces, but then this state is so heavily Democratic, they’re really preaching to the choir anyway.

The recent tone of this thread is proof that the current political climate is quite toxic right now. There is no frank discussion any more. It's no longer a matter of who has the best ideas for a brighter future. It's all about invective and personal attack and why we should not vote for the other guy.

Forgive my naivety, but if we can’t do anything to improve the process, why do we have to bring the worst aspects of it into the forum? This thread was doing so well until------

Oh well. It is general chat, but I will encourage you all to keep bickering and sniping to a minimum. I commend you for your passion, but wish you would work on your tact just a little.

Thanks,
Tom (who is seriously considering locking himself in a closet and not coming out until mid-November).

[BoySpot]

Great to see someone reminding us what free speech and democracy are really about. Having your opinion and allowing others to have theirs. Opinions are valuable. Unswerving belief is when things get a little more scary.

To a more important question, where can I get this Free Martha you are offering? She was always pretty expensive before.

[Belmondo]

Great to see someone reminding us what free speech and democracy are really about. Having your opinion and allowing others to have theirs. Opinions are valuable. Unswerving belief is when things get a little more scary.

To a more important question, where can I get this Free Martha you are offering? She was always pretty expensive before.

She really isn't free....she's just greatly reduced.
I'm reluctant to bring this up, but she's going to jail for lying. Fair enough.

It's somewhat ironic that this is exactly what Pres. Clinton did---lied to the Feds.

I guess it all depends on who your friends are.

[Tom W]

It is clear from everything that has happened thus far in both campaigns, and judging from the amount of money that is yet to be spent between now and November, that things are only going to get uglier, nastier, more divisive, and more embarrassing to all of us who believe democracy is a superior form of government.

Politics hasn't gotten any prettier in the last 40 years. I really long for a candidate that stands on what he or she will do rather than trying to tear down the opponent, particularly when that "tear-down" is primarily based on false inuendos and such. A strong, self-confident person doesn't need to tear into others to show theirself in a positive light.

At this point, I don't think it matters a whit which one of the parties prevail in November. Our future is largely out of our own control right now, and whoever sits in the oval office is going to find himself reacting to world events, and not dictating them.

True to an extent, but its how they react that is of importance. I'm of the mindset that we've turned the other cheek way too many times. Others differ. I prefer to keep the US as a soverign and self-sufficient nation.

So if it's Kerry, or Bush, or even Nader, I don't see a great deal of difference. It's Dumb and Dumber all over again. You can decide for yourself which is which.

Quit being such a pessemist, Belmondo! There's plenty of other reasons for voting one way or another. I don't see either candidate as dumb, even if they might come across that way. Both have political savvy. My personal opinion is that one candidate puts politics far above sincerity while the other does not.

Unfortunately, both see Washington as a solution to individual problems, while neither wants to get the government off the backs of the people (as Reagan would say).

In light of all this, there is at least one significant reason I'm happy I live in California; California will automatically go for any Democrat they run. I’m not particularly happy that there’s such a lopsided Democratic majority in the state, but it does make it unnecessary to devote even minimal mental energy to the current national debate over the presidency. In fact, because of the Electoral College, we voters who don’t automatically vote party lines will have no voice at all in this election. Democrats can take the state for granted, and Republicans will ignore it because they know they have no chance here.

One very positive side to the fact that California is not considered a 'swing state' is that the amount of money spent locally on Kerry/Bush television ads will be minimal. The local and statewide races will still be there, but the presidential race is already decided out here. Most of what we see will be the MoveOn.org hit pieces, but then this state is so heavily Democratic, they’re really preaching to the choir anyway.

MoveOn.org - Arrrrgggghhh. I could say a lot more, but that about sums it up. ;)
BTW, you can read plenty about MoveOn.org by doing a search at www.freerepublic.com . (Its only fair to mention partisans on both sides of the aisle, even though one is truthful and one isn't (IMHO) ). ;)

The recent tone of this thread is proof that the current political climate is quite toxic right now. There is no frank discussion any more. It's no longer a matter of who has the best ideas for a brighter future. It's all about invective and personal attack and why we should not vote for the other guy.

Well, you're absolutely right. I have very strong feelings about this election, as I'm sure others do as well. One thing I'm not going to do is sit by and let the extreme left pound another stake into this country as was done in the 1960's. If they take it to the forums, I'll be there. If they take it to the media, I'll be there. If they take it to the streets, I'll be there. I'm that intense about the situation.

Forgive my naivety, but if we can’t do anything to improve the process, why do we have to bring the worst aspects of it into the forum? This thread was doing so well until------

Oh well. It is general chat, but I will encourage you all to keep bickering and sniping to a minimum. I commend you for your passion, but wish you would work on your tact just a little.

Thanks,
Tom (who is seriously considering locking himself in a closet and not coming out until mid-November).

OK, I'll do my best to keep my bickering out of this forum. But I am enthusiastic about this election and it will be tough to keep from jumping to the defense of our President when he is unfairly or falsely maligned.

[BoySpot]

If you take alook around the world, you may find that the US doesn't have an extreme left. The left here are actually quite right in comparison to a lot of the other western nations. Rather than labelling opponents as extreme left or right, why not stick with the issues. That's all that matters.

[John_T]

Good point there Tom Dubya. The right man for the job can stand straight on his own two feet and would consider it beneath his dignity and integrity to malign his opponent.

But you've got one huge hunk of work in front of you if you are thinking of "jumping to the defense of our President when he is unfairly or falsely maligned."

There has never been a President, or even candidate, who hasn't been massively unfairly and falsely maligned, directly, indirectly and/or in whispers. Perhaps in the more distant past they were more gentlemenly about it, but today, my God, that appears to be the full and only content of campaigning.

Like I said, I'd vote for Colin Powell or Kerry's wife.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Apperent;ly the greaest thrteat to the Amercan Way right now are large red headed photographers...

Or at least this is what the security at international airports seem to beleive.

I have just returned from my trip which included 4 flights.. and all the checkpoints in between.... and it was the red headed Viking that was stopped and "wanded" and who's baggage was emptied and "swabbed" (don't ask I have no idea either) at EVERY SINGLE check point in the Airports...

So.. apperently the Peoples Viking Liberation Army of Eric The Red is the next big terrorist threat for the US... and Canada alike.

I took it all in great stride and humour knowing that these sorry high school drop outs passing the wand over me were America's front line defenders of our right to pour foreighn oil into what's left of America's fresh water supply.... :mrgreen:

But in hindsite.. it was rather odd.. leaving me wondering just what profile the Vacationing Viking fit that aroused such universal suspicion...


I think what they really need at the borders is a 68 year old 4th grade school teacher. She would know who had something to hide every time! (...and she'd pinch my cheeks and tell me what beautifull hair I have instead of tossing my luggage! :mrgreen: )

[Penguin_101_1]

Where did you go? Did I miss that thread?

[CyberDyneSystems]

No.. I guess I never posted.. I was in NewfoundLand this padst week... lots of photos to follow :)


It was.. to say the least.. wonderfull. I can think of no where else I've been that would be more photogenic. Truly the perfect photographers vacation.

[Penguin_101_1]

Wow! POST PICS! :D

[Cadenza]

I can't imagine any sane person being to the left of the DNC, but that's just my opinion.

Your opinion is fine, but how about inclusiveness, democracy,
etc.? Shouldn't all voices be allowed in a free society? What are
we afraid of?

[quote]Besides, it was the BUSH supporters around
here who started thrusting his name upon the forum,
glorified in 24 pt. size.

Which was probably a bad idea in itself, I will agree. But I'm not sure that responding with a long list of unsubstantiated BS is the best way to answer it.

Oh, Please. Unsubstantiated BS is the hallmark of Bush
admin. Weapons of Mass Destruction? Halliburton? Enron?
Remember, Bush and Cheney are energy guys, they
understood what was happening even when most of us
didn't. And regardless of the outcome in Iraq, this was
a war that was started on rumor and innuendo, rather
than fact. Either that, or worse: our soldiers are dying
because of one man's "hunch," or a personal family vendetta.


This thread has made some weird turns, but I don't think that the autobiographic "report" of someone's alleged encounter with the Seattle police department has a whole lot to do with defense spending. Government bureaucracy, yes, but on a more local level.

My point is that they're doing a lot of clumsy, demonstrative
things (the laughable color coded alerts, harassing photogs
and everyone at airports, etc.) to make people believe "Homeland
Security is working really hard," when they're pretty impotent
when it comes to actually protecting us. The credible recent
alerts about protecting specific buildings in the U.S. came from
good intelligence work of a foreign source.

[Tom W]

I can't imagine any sane person being to the left of the DNC, but that's just my opinion.

Your opinion is fine, but how about inclusiveness, democracy,
etc.? Shouldn't all voices be allowed in a free society? What are
we afraid of?

Where the hell did I say that no voices should be heard, regardless of how farfetched they are? Don't put words in my mouth.

Besides, it was the BUSH supporters around
here who started thrusting his name upon the forum,
glorified in 24 pt. size.

Which was probably a bad idea in itself, I will agree. But I'm not sure that responding with a long list of unsubstantiated BS is the best way to answer it.

Oh, Please. Unsubstantiated BS is the hallmark of Bush
admin. Weapons of Mass Destruction? Halliburton? Enron?
Remember, Bush and Cheney are energy guys, they
understood what was happening even when most of us
didn't. And regardless of the outcome in Iraq, this was
a war that was started on rumor and innuendo, rather
than fact. Either that, or worse: our soldiers are dying
because of one man's "hunch," or a personal family vendetta.

Where to begin.....

First of all, WMD was not the primary premise for the war in Iraq. And even if it were, there are plenty of folks in Washington that were absolutely convinced of their existance including Kerry, Clinton and virtually every other member of the house and senate. The intelligence community was certain, as was the UN. The fact that the weapons that had been documented have disappeared doesn't mean that they never existed - it merely means that Hussein has a few friends in the region that have been willing to help out.

As for Hallaburton - it is the only company that presented a qualified bid for the work that they now do in Iraq. The only tie that the administration has to that company is through Cheney's already-earned retirement options.

And Enron.....Enron????? How the hell can you even relate that mess to Bush? Enron practically wrote the deregulation laws in their own favor, but they did so during the Clinton Administration, when Ken Lay had the undivided attention of FERC's Clinton appointee Browner (who had absolutely NO experience in the electric utility field and was not an Electrical Engineer). To try to tie that company to Bush is just plain silly.

Iraq was NOT started by a man's hunch or a family's vendetta - it was started to remove an evil dictator from a third world country after repeated and continuous violation to UN requirements set forth over a decade ago. Your own bias blinds you.


This thread has made some weird turns, but I don't think that the autobiographic "report" of someone's alleged encounter with the Seattle police department has a whole lot to do with defense spending. Government bureaucracy, yes, but on a more local level.

My point is that they're doing a lot of clumsy, demonstrative
things (the laughable color coded alerts, harassing photogs
and everyone at airports, etc.) to make people believe "Homeland
Security is working really hard," when they're pretty impotent
when it comes to actually protecting us. The credible recent
alerts about protecting specific buildings in the U.S. came from
good intelligence work of a foreign source.[/quote]

The color alerts are, perhaps a bit silly. But, what method would you use to maintain some kind of public awareness that things can and do happen? Certainly, some kind of alert before 9/11 would have been useful.

On the surface, these efforts are rather fruitless, except for the psychological effects on the general population. But what happens behind the scenes is of far greater importance - and things are happening behind the scene. The Fed is sharing information with locals and vica-versa and the nation's infrastructure (utilities, bridges, refineries, etc.) have drastically beefed up security and on-property surveillance. What more would you have them do? What's your solution?

[neil_r]

it was started to remove an evil dictator from a third world country after repeated and continuous violation to UN requirements set forth over a decade ago. Your own bias blinds you.


Not sure why you felt the need to insert "third world" was it, perhaps to seperate Iraq from the other countries that ignore UN requirements that you you don't invade. i.e Israel, Zimbabwe etc etc

Oh, and speaking of UN requirements. Not only did the US and the UK not have a UN "requirement" to invade Iraq they actually had no support at all.

You cannot use the UN to justify one action and then totally ignore it when they disagree with what you are doing.

N

[Tom W]

it was started to remove an evil dictator from a third world country after repeated and continuous violation to UN requirements set forth over a decade ago. Your own bias blinds you.


Not sure why you felt the need to insert "third world" was it, perhaps to seperate Iraq from the other countries that ignore UN requirements that you you don't invade. i.e Israel, Zimbabwe etc etc

Perhaps because Iraq qualifies for that title. Israel does not. Zimbabwe might.

Oh, and speaking of UN requirements. Not only did the US and the UK not have a UN "requirement" to invade Iraq they actually had no support at all.

You cannot use the UN to justify one action and then totally ignore it when they disagree with what you are doing.

N

The US was party to numerous UN resolutions and sanctions against Iraq, and in fact tempered her response to Iraq's defiance for over a decade. The US was not party to actions against Israel, and in fact tends to support Israel against all the anti-semetism in the region. I don't know about Zimbabwe so I won't comment.

Anyway, the UN has proven ineffective in Iraq at finding and destroying the large stockpile of weapons that were accounted for prior to Gulf War I, and in fact might be party to their strange disappearance. Nobody would want to ruin any sweet "food-for-oil" deals, now would they?

But regardless, the UN is nothing but a political front anyway, and is certainly not a body to which the US, Britain, Austrailia, Poland, or any other country involved in Iraq must turn for permission.

[John_T]

Well, this all very fine and nice, but it has all already happened, and led us to where we are today. So while we can armchair over it for the rest of our days, as many people prefer to do, wouldn't be more useful, constructive and intelligent to ponder where we go from here?

[Tom W]

Well, this all very fine and nice, but it has all already happened, and led us to where we are today. So while we can armchair over it for the rest of our days, as many people prefer to do, wouldn't be more useful, constructive and intelligent to ponder where we go from here?

Now that's a thought, though how we continue will be determined in part by who ends up in the White House.

As adamant as I am about my opinions in this area, I think we do need to look forward.

[hickory]

Let me just say thanks to nighthawk for bringing Ian Speirs plight to our forum. I truly had not heard of him or the Ballard Locks before I started to read this thread.

I did a Google search on him and found a tremendous amount of information with many different points of view. I also found that Ian himself has several other web sites in which he states his case. Bravo, that we have the freedom to do so here in the USA. It is still the land of the free. And our freedom to vote in a democratic society will sustain that right.


Just the other nite I watched the comedy movie "1941" with John Candy and John Belushi. I laughed my head off and at the same time was wondering how we in America could have suspected every Asian American of being a Japanese "terrorist". History seems to repeat itself regardless of what political party is in office.

Now I think its time for a "group hug" :lol:

tom

[John_T]

Well, "we" is composed of a multitude of "I"s, each with a blank piece of paper in front of him on which he can write the rest of his life. While he can write who he'll vote for, what else is on his list between now and November and therafter?

Or should he sit there and wait until whoever takes over the chair in the White House writes his list for him? In my experience that is how dictatorships function.

Another possibility is that when each makes his own list with wisdom and forsight, and then sticks to his guns, no dictator, despot or hypocrite stands the ghost of a chance of finding a chair anywhere.

So perhaps what I am asking is what would you do as president of your own life when making your list and carrying it out, be it in Witchita or the White House?

[CyberDyneSystems]

...I did a Google search on him and found a tremendous amount of information with many different points of view. I also found that Ian himself has several other web sites in which he states his case. Bravo, that we have the freedom to do so here in the USA. It is still the land of the free...

..er... Just FYI,. this forum is hosted in Finland.. and it's the current U.S administration, Ashcroft and Hatch who are doing everyting in there power to limit the freedoms that allow such desention. Re reading the patriot act is interesting ti say the least.. not to mention the current U.S. courts outlook on things like privacy on the internet etc..


Just the other nite I watched the comedy movie "1941" with John Candy and John Belushi. I laughed my head off and at the same time was wondering how we in America could have suspected every Asian American of being a Japanese "terrorist". History seems to repeat itself regardless of what political party is in office.

Now I think its time for a "group hug" :lol:

tom

definately .. a classic! (1941) :lol: :lol:

Good point about history repeating itself.

[Tom W]

Let me just say thanks to nighthawk for bringing Ian Speirs plight to our forum. I truly had not heard of him or the Ballard Locks before I started to read this thread.

I did a Google search on him and found a tremendous amount of information with many different points of view. I also found that Ian himself has several other web sites in which he states his case. Bravo, that we have the freedom to do so here in the USA. It is still the land of the free. And our freedom to vote in a democratic society will sustain that right.

Holy Cow - a reference to the original post (and probably a timely event, considering how things have unfolded here over the last several hours). Yes, I am one to want a second opinion on the incident, but you are right in that we can speak our mind about it (and even blow off a little steam once in a while). That's the good part of the internet, US or not.


Just the other nite I watched the comedy movie "1941" with John Candy and John Belushi. I laughed my head off and at the same time was wondering how we in America could have suspected every Asian American of being a Japanese "terrorist". History seems to repeat itself regardless of what political party is in office.

Now I think its time for a "group hug" :lol:

tom

Great movie - it is a classic (though it isn't as good as "Animal House") :)

I suspect that America's distrust of Asian-Americans was more a matter of human nature than of the person in charge. People became very distrustful after the Pearl Harbor attack. Folks from my father's era (WW-II vet) refuse to this day to buy a Japanese car, even if the car was made in Honda's Marysville, Ohio plant. Deeply entrenched feelings.

No hugging!! Honestly, I think that we all want the best possible outcome for our respective countries and for the world. But the means for that outcome is strongly in dispute.

[Tom W]

..er... Just FYI,. this forum is hosted in Finland.. and it's the current U.S administration, Ashcroft and Hatch who are doing everyting in there power to limit the freedoms that allow such desention. Re reading the patriot act is interesting ti say the least.. not to mention the current U.S. courts outlook on things like privacy on the internet etc..

Good point - this is a worldly forum. You've inspired me to re-read the patriot act, but I will point out that the 4th amendment has been under attack for 3 decades, mostly due to the war on drugs. That doesn't make it right, of course.



definately .. a classic! (1941) :lol: :lol:

Good point about history repeating itself.

Over and over again.....

BTW, I read a bit about your flight experiences. I've only flown once since 9/11 - I didn't like it before and I still don't (they always seemed to pick my bags to check for explosives, even back in the mid-1990's). I probably should have done a better job of acknowledging Cadenza's statement about the silly gyrations that go on at our airports these days. Philosophically, he and I are pretty far apart, but our common ground is that we recognize some of the silly "look-good" reactions to 9/11. I don't think that disarming all passengers of their tiny pocket knives and knitting needles is a good idea when the bad guys are sure to find a way to smuggle modest weapons onto a plane if they choose to do so.

I tend to choose driving over flying if the trip is less than 700 miles, since I can carry whatever I want with me in my car.

[Tom W]

Well, "we" is composed of a multitude of "I"s, each with a blank piece of paper in front of him on which he can write the rest of his life. While he can write who he'll vote for, what else is on his list between now and November and therafter?

At the top of my list is to take pictures! :)

I'm not inclined to plan the rest of my life (if that's what you're requesting), though I may have some general goals in mind. Things change. We live in interesting times.

Or should he sit there and wait until whoever takes over the chair in the White House writes his list for him? In my experience that is how dictatorships function.

Considering that only two candidates have a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected, we all have to consider which one best matches our own desires for what is right for the country and ultimately, the world. Unless I am a candidate ("shudder"), nobody is going to perfectly match my view. I suspect that is the same with everybody. As well, one must consider that what the candidate claims are his or her values and goals and what they will actually persue (by design, none can acheive all their goals - congress for all its troubles acts as a very effective brake on the system) are two different things. That needs to be considered as well.

Another possibility is that when each makes his own list with wisdom and forsight, and then sticks to his guns, no dictator, despot or hypocrite stands the ghost of a chance of finding a chair anywhere.

So perhaps what I am asking is what would you do as president of your own life when making your list and carrying it out, be it in Witchita or the White House?

Good question/statement/whatever. I tend to be very stubborn - I stick to my guns (in more ways than one :) ) quite well. One thing that worries me more than a single dictator in this country (the US) is the growing trend of a sort of oppression by a small group of elites. I.E., the three branches of government are not fully in touch with the people any more. There's an old saying that when the government fears the people, you have liberty, but when the people fear the government, you have oppression.

We seem to be in-between the two somewhere. The dispute, I believe, isn't so much where we are as who is responsible for putting us there. This didn't happen overnight.

[neil_r]

I tend to choose driving over flying if the trip is less than 700 miles, since I can carry whatever I want with me in my car.

Just as a matter of interest Tom, have you ever been abroad.

N

[John_T]

Well Tom, I've got a thing, when I'm bright enough to remember, that's called:

"This is the first day in in the rest of my life, and what the hell am I going do with it?"

Now today I am going to chimp through about 28 skillion sunsets with my GF, and she's going to say keep that one and I'm gonna say let's dump this one, and after hours of oohs and aahs and uh-huhs and unh-uhns we'll still have 28 skillion sunsets, but at least in some manageable form.

Come November I'm going to be standing there with my pen trembling over a piece of paper thinking "This is the first day in the next four years of my life and who knows beyond that?", and I can only do one thing and that is do my damnest to make sure that the next four aren't going to be like the last four. I don't give a hoot who's guilty or right, something has gotta change now!

And now is the only time I have to do or change anything. The past is already gone and the future's not here and I'm living right now, so what am I doing with this "now"?

There are several laws of physics that apply to everything:

- It takes more energy to get an object in motion than to leave it at rest.

- It takes more energy to change the direction of an object in motion than it does to keep it rolling in the same direction.

- It takes more energy to stop an object in motion than it does to let it keep on rolling.

- It takes more energy to keep an object in motion than it does to let it come to a rest.

So where do I apply or not apply my energy?

That's what is going to determine the rest of my life.

:lol:

[Penguin_101_1]

BUSH!

He needs to close all borders and then I will be really happy!


The level of misinformation in this statement is laughable.

Bush in fact has done much to ease the admission of temporary
Mexican workers, which the U.S. agricultural economy is
heavily dependent upon. What has Bush done for domestic
security? Seizing upon paranoia and fear, he made his friends
rich again, with Dick Cheney passing out lucrative military and
airport security equipment contracts. Halliburton is but the tip
of the iceberg.

Sure, security is needed, but most of the security staff are
bored to death, so the go after the easiest and most obvious:
the helpless law abiding citizen who happens to be taking
photos in the wrong place at the wrong time. When it comes
to finding actual terrorists, Homeland Security issues press
releases listing all the difficulties of this process amidst
claims of impotence.

Beyond that, the only thing that they came up with is the
useless, wasteful idiotic color coded alert warning system,
something a sophomore in college would have gotten a
B-minus if turned in as public policy exercise.

And Bush has alienated the whole world, spent all the
credibility of the U.S. so carefully earned thru the Nixon,
Carter, and even Reagan administrations as a fair global
player after the fall of the Berlin Wall. The whole world
hates us now, ask yourself: what happened? (Ft Nt 1)

The damage the Bush administration has done this this
country and the world can hardly be understimated.
And I haven't even gotten to the economy yet. Weren't
we supposed to get cheap gas for saving Kuwait and
liberating Iraq from Saddam? What happened?

Yes, I know that. I was just stating what I would like to see from him becasue he hasn't done it.

1 What are they going to do about it?

[John_T]

Who is "they"?

Could it possibly be you?

[Tom W]

Well Tom, I've got a thing, when I'm bright enough to remember, that's called:

"This is the first day in in the rest of my life, and what the hell am I going do with it?"

Now today I am going to chimp through about 28 skillion sunsets with my GF, and she's going to say keep that one and I'm gonna say let's dump this one, and after hours of oohs and aahs and uh-huhs and unh-uhns we'll still have 28 skillion sunsets, but at least in some manageable form.

Come November I'm going to be standing there with my pen trembling over a piece of paper thinking "This is the first day in the next four years of my life and who knows beyond that?", and I can only do one thing and that is do my damnest to make sure that the next four aren't going to be like the last four. I don't give a hoot who's guilty or right, something has gotta change now!

And that is the question that most of us will ask ourselves. But one must weigh all the aspects of the last 4 years, and consider which events were within the control of the office and which were outside the control of that same office. And how the office responded to those conditions. Does something really have to change now? And will the change create a better or worse condition in the long run?

My vote as far as the terror situation is concerned is that we need to hold our course. That's also my vote WRT to several other issues including taxes, courts, and environmental concerns.

Yes, there's always room for change, and improvement. And that needs to weigh in on everyone's decision. But we need to really consider what those changes might be in the long run.

And now is the only time I have to do or change anything. The past is already gone and the future's not here and I'm living right now, so what am I doing with this "now"?

There are several laws of physics that apply to everything:

- It takes more energy to get an object in motion than to leave it at rest.

- It takes more energy to change the direction of an object in motion than it does to keep it rolling in the same direction.

- It takes more energy to stop an object in motion than it does to let it keep on rolling.

- It takes more energy to keep an object in motion than it does to let it come to a rest.

So where do I apply or not apply my energy?

That's what is going to determine the rest of my life.

:lol:

I agree - but one must consider the past in order to help steer the future. Consider that the object in motion might be trying to hide their previous motion (voting records, etc) in order to veil their future direction.

[Tom W]

I tend to choose driving over flying if the trip is less than 700 miles, since I can carry whatever I want with me in my car.

Just as a matter of interest Tom, have you ever been abroad.

N

A fair question - no, I've not travelled overseas yet. Probably won't until I retire several years down the road. I haven't even visited every state in the US, though I have visited Canada a few times.

[Penguin_101_1]

Who is "they"?

Could it possibly be you?
"The whole world"

[John_T]

Hmmm. I've never met a world. You will have to tell me about it.

I've met many individual people of all sorts and shapes who have an awful lot to say about everything, but I haven't met very many anteaters, cows, banana trees, jellyfish, rocks or beetles that have much to say about anything 'cause they are all quite busy enough tending to their own affairs.

I always thought that individual people should take responsibility for their own actions or inactions, but relatively few even appear to think about it, so I guess I was wrong.

I does appear to me that the relatively few who do think about it are massively outnumbered by those who don't, so that might be one reason for the current state of affairs.

I do wonder which group the people in "power" belong to, because they do have an awful lot to say without saying anything, and their actions and inactions have very little in common with what they say. That might be another reason for our current state of affairs, dunno.

But it would be very enlightening to chat with a world that spoke with one voice, so if you ever come across one, please send him or her my way.

[Cadenza]

In regards to the frivolousness of picking on obvious photogs,
perhaps some of you might find this NY Times op-ed piece
interesting, on how this whole Iraq war has not made us any safer.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/06/opinion/06herbert.html

a brief excerpt (note GWB's Freudian slip!):

The war in Iraq has intensified the hatred of America around the world and powerfully energized Al Qaeda-type insurgencies. At the same time, it has weakened our defenses by diverting the very resources we need - personnel, matériel and boatloads of cash - to meet the real terror threats.

President Bush's re-election mantra is that he's the leader who can keep America safe. But that message was stepped on by the urgent, if not frantic, disclosures this week by top administration officials that another Al Qaeda attack on the United States might be imminent.

A debate emerged almost immediately about whether the intelligence on which those disclosures were based was old or new, or a combination of both. Nevertheless, because of the growing sense of alarm, there was an expansion of the already ubiquitous armed, concrete-fortified sites in New York City and Washington.

The pressure may be getting to Mr. Bush. He came up with a gem of a Freudian slip yesterday. At a signing ceremony for a $417 billion military spending bill, the president said: "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

The nation seems paralyzed, unsure of what to do about Iraq or terrorism. The failure of leadership that led to the bonehead decision to invade Iraq remains painfully evident today. Nobody seems to know where we go from here.

[matjazr]

It sounds like US is turning into a police state like those we, eastern European used to live in back in 80's.
What a nostalgia! Everytime you tried to take some photos you had to check if it was not forbidden (military installations, factories, railroads, bridges, tunnels, national parks, etc., etc.) The only foreigners were tourists with whom we had to be very careful not to have too much contact. They were all potential terrorists especially if they were fotographing something. You know, a young couple taking photo of a sunset is really planning a terrorist attack.
And it worked! We had no terrorism (now there is no terrorism either, but that must be pure luck), we were all living pecafully, no one really cared if from time to time the police asked for your ID for no apparent reason. No one cared if safety procedures at the border or at the airport took minutes, sometimes hours. What is some freedom in exchange for safety?
I don't know where our minds were in late 80's when we were starting to vode for changes towards democracy! We have left behind a Brave New World in exchange for a world where you can go everywhere, do anything, take photo of anything you want, where you can file a complaint if a cop asks for your ID without a good reason.
But on the other hand we are completely unprotected from all those potential foreign terrorists, since foreigners can do all the things, we locals can.

[John_T]

Good one Matjaz. You didn't mention the secret police though.

I'm trying to think of the countries that haven't had one at one time or another, except the US of course.

Spain had one under Franco, even Switzerland had a more discete one up until the '80s. Even today many parents threaten their children that the police will come get them if they don't behave. Pretty disgusting.

[Andy_T]

Even today many parents threaten their children that the police will come get them if they don't behave.

Still, with some kids nowadays, it might not be so much a threat as a warning :?

Best regards,
Andy

[Penguin_101_1]

Just when I thought the thread had died it comes back to life. :lol:

[John_T]

Penguin, get yourself elected Governor of Missouri, seal all the borders and succede from the Union.

Then you will have what you want and we'll have what we want.

Dunno Andy, the way it appears to me, the parents are incompetent in raising the kids and the kids realize the parents are acting out of "ohnmacht", impotence, so the kids get threatened that the police will get them if they don't behave until that has no meaning anymore, so the kids needing to find out their limits go out on the street to find it, until they really do run into the police.

I've talked with middle aged and older Swiss that from the cradle were so threatened the police would get them over every tiny thing that even today they panic when they see a police car and slam on the brakes when they haven't done anything. It is also confusing to the police when they see people acting guilty when they haven't done anything at all.

One policeman I was chatting with once said that his parents had also threatened him with the police, so he became one. :lol:

[Penguin_101_1]

Penguin, get yourself elected Governor of Missouri, seal all the borders and succede from the Union.

Then you will have what you want and we'll have what we want.

Dunno Andy, the way it appears to me, the parents are incompetent in raising the kids and the kids realize the parents are acting out of "ohnmacht", impotence, so the kids get threatened that the police will get them if they don't behave until that has no meaning anymore, so the kids needing to find out their limits go out on the street to find it, until they really do run into the police.

I've talked with middle aged and older Swiss that from the cradle were so threatened the police would get them over every tiny thing that even today they panic when they see a police car and slam on the brakes when they haven't done anything. It is also confusing to the police when they see people acting guilty when they haven't done anything at all.

One policeman I was chatting with once said that his parents had also threatened him with the police, so he became one. :lol:

Umm What does that mean? I just said that it came back to life. :roll: :? Why would I want to be governor? I just said my, and many others, opinion. :roll: who is we??

[DocFrankenstein]

Stuff like this really bothers me.

I was approached by a security officer while taking pictures on one of the montreal islands (the one on which you can get using the subway). There's a big spherical structure and I was planning to get a few long exposure photos. Some wonderful shots can be taken there.

I take out my tripod, set it up and the guy slowly pulls over in his car.

Hi
Hi
What are you guys doing?
Just taking pictures, no trouble.
You need a permit to take the pictures here. (it's the friggin tourist center) :?
What kind of permit?
You need to get a permit from the city hall in order to photograph this
You do realise that this is a tourist location. People take pictures here.
You need a permit to take pictures, and I specifically called city hall (at 10:30 pm) and asked if anybody had a permit for today.
:shock: It does not work this way :shock: Then I gave him an explanation as to what can be photographed from the POV of copyrights.

He: Sir, are you calling me a liar?
Me: yes, because I know you are not telling me the truth and I am allowed to take pictures here. The fact that the camera is supported in some way does not change anything.

he's taken aback... He: Sir, you can not take pictures here.

At this point I remember that I am a tourist, my new canadian friend speaks neither english nor french, we're both quite drunk AND I have a case of heineken in my bag.

I decided to bend over and comply

[DocFrankenstein]

So it doesn't happen to "brown" people only as the guy in the article claims. It happens to all of us, he's just pushing the racism card to get more hits.

Stuff like this happens all the time. Sad but true. The average cop is badly trained, especially in legal matters. Or even if they are, they may and do pressure you into you doing things that hurt you.

I had to recearch about my and cop's rights extensively, because I was considering owning firearms. And if you wrong there, you're gonna get your guns confiscated at the minimum and 5+ jail time at max.

This is about PROBABLE CAUSE. You have the right to take pictures on the street. That's it. Technicalities do not matter.

You may have the blackest, baddest camera around, mounted on industrial strength tripod. Does not mean a thing. He can't stop you, unless he has reason to beleive that you're are in some way committing a crime. All he can ask for is your ID. You do not have to answer any questions. You are taking pictures - it's your right, exersise it. He checked your id. You have a right to remain silent. Exercise it.

Zero info after checking the ID. If he asks the questions, ask him if you are charged with something.

He's gonna say that you're "under suspect" or "have to clear things..."

Ask him again, if you are charged with something. Sooner or later he'll say no.

That's all there is to it.

95% of cops won't bother going further.

If he does make an arrest. Let him cuff you. Say that you do not agree with what is happening and you beleive that he is making a false arrest. Say that you beleive that a false arrest on an peace officer's record may cost him a promotion. Say that you're innocent. Say that you are concerned that a newspaper may be intrested in publishing a story about you being false arrested by officer X. Say that people may be intrested in persuading papers to publish such a story during certain circumstances. It's gonna get him thinking if the whole think is worth the hassle.

If he's still cuffing you, too bad for him. You're gonna be released in the morning, because they have no evidence agains you.

In the morning you start talking to your lawyer and explaining about stress and emotional damages you have suffered while being there.

[DocFrankenstein]

Damn right I am.

I am pushing it all the way I can. I have done my homework. I know my rights. Last time I checked they are ingrained in the constitution. I am not gonna be walked all over just because someone flew a plane in a tower.

Why should I give anything up. I came to this country because of it's rights and freedoms. I am gonna do my best to make sure they are not violated.

I am a good and complying citizen only if my rights are respected. If you decide to infringe them, I am gonna fight back with all means I consider adequate!

If somebody wanted to blow up the montreal white sphere on that island, he wouldn't need to do a long exposure night shot of it. He would've just took a few snapshots handheld, during the day of the key locations to decide where the exits are, where to place the explosives... etc... A potential terrorist would not bother doing it at night with a tripod.

If the dumb security guy doesn't understand it, it's not my fault. It's the fault of the system. And if the system hurts me, and makes me spend a night in jail, where I suffer abuse, phychological, emotional, physical, inhumane conditions and exposure to different substances...

I only think it's fair that the system which is supposed to be just (hence the justice system) would want to compensate my suffering. If we are fighting the osama army, some of the people are gonna be wrongly accused and these are the costs of it.

But is it too much to demand that these innocent people (victims) are somehow confiscated for the abuse they suffered?

[Penguin_101_1]

Penguin, get yourself elected Governor of Missouri, seal all the borders and succede from the Union.

Then you will have what you want and we'll have what we want.



Well I put up a poll for an adverage person to vote on. Here are the results:
Should the United States seal all of its borders?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ 239 ] Yes [ 90.19% ]
[ 18 ] No [ 6.79% ]
[ 8 ] Other [ 3.02% ]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Votes :: 265

8:47am 8-9-04

It looks like out of a sample of 265 people 90.19% of people think we should seal the borders. :twisted:

[Tom W]

Here's a few shots I've taken in the last couple of months. I have NOT been harassed by anybody:

We've got the typical petrolium filling station:

http://images2.fotopic.net/?iid=y3vzrw&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1

Then there's always bridges....

Railroad trestles:

http://images2.fotopic.net/?iid=y3vzru&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1

Ohio Turnpike over the Cuyahoga River valley:


http://images2.fotopic.net/?iid=y3vzvw&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1

Or perhaps something more local - Norfolk-Southern railroad trestle over the Tennessee River:

http://images2.fotopic.net/?iid=y25v0q&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1

Or maybe some electrical infrastructure....

Like a 345 kV wave trap inside a substation yard:

http://images1.fotopic.net/?iid=y3f3ie&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1

Or maybe just a transmission line tower:

http://images2.fotopic.net/?iid=y3f3i4&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1

There's always federal government facilities:

http://images2.fotopic.net/?iid=y3vzrt&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1

And finally, the occasional Nuclear plant:

http://images2.fotopic.net/?iid=y3jv8q&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1

Sounds like a local problem in Seattle, or the guy isn't telling the whole story.

[John_T]

Tennessee Valley Authority! Used to go fishing all over their man-made lakes. Big Big Mouth Bass!

I like the Ohio turnpike shot best. That T shaped trestle looks like a Transformer to me. Better keep an eye on him... :wink:

[Lamplight]

Here's a few shots I've taken in the last couple of months. I have NOT been harassed by anybody:

Tom, maybe it's a Tennessee thing because I've never been harassed for photographing anything. :lol: Or maybe we've just been lucky? :? :D

[Ikinaa]

Penguin, get yourself elected Governor of Missouri, seal all the borders and succede from the Union.

Then you will have what you want and we'll have what we want.



Well I put up a poll for an adverage person to vote on. Here are the results:
Should the United States seal all of its borders?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ 239 ] Yes [ 90.19% ]
[ 18 ] No [ 6.79% ]
[ 8 ] Other [ 3.02% ]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Votes :: 265

8:47am 8-9-04

It looks like out of a sample of 265 people 90.19% of people think we should seal the borders. :twisted:

Just a quick question : What do you mean by sealing the borders? You build a wall around the USA, stop exporting and importing, and so on?

[Tom W]

Here's a few shots I've taken in the last couple of months. I have NOT been harassed by anybody:

Tom, maybe it's a Tennessee thing because I've never been harassed for photographing anything. :lol: Or maybe we've just been lucky? :? :D

It could be a Tennessee thing - people seem to be nicer here in "flyover" country.

I do have to admit though that some of those pictures were taken in the Cleveland, Ohio area. They're still pretty friendly up there as well, depending on which part of town you venture into. There's always been an east-west rivalry of sorts, with the east side of town claiming cultural superiority, while us west-siders were a little more down-to-earth. We changed our own oil, weeded our own gardens, and drank beer. The east-siders paid people to perform those tasks while they sat on the deck drinking $25/bottle wine. Or at least we liked to think that way.... :)

I've been in Tennessee for just over three years, having given up a 21 year career at an undisclosed large employer in the Cleveland area after the company merged themselves into stupidity. Despite leaving many friends, I believe that I've made a wise move.

[Penguin_101_1]

I mean shut down unauthorized access and make visas harder to get and easier to track.

[ilya]

Penguin, get yourself elected Governor of Missouri, seal all the borders and succede from the Union.

Then you will have what you want and we'll have what we want.



Well I put up a poll for an adverage person to vote on. Here are the results:
Should the United States seal all of its borders?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ 239 ] Yes [ 90.19% ]
[ 18 ] No [ 6.79% ]
[ 8 ] Other [ 3.02% ]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Votes :: 265

8:47am 8-9-04

It looks like out of a sample of 265 people 90.19% of people think we should seal the borders. :twisted:

Good grief.

Was this at the rednecks-r-us forum?

I mean shut down unauthorized access and make visas harder to get and easier to track.

That's not "sealing borders" by the way.

[Penguin_101_1]

Penguin, get yourself elected Governor of Missouri, seal all the borders and succede from the Union.

Then you will have what you want and we'll have what we want.



Well I put up a poll for an adverage person to vote on. Here are the results:
Should the United States seal all of its borders?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ 239 ] Yes [ 90.19% ]
[ 18 ] No [ 6.79% ]
[ 8 ] Other [ 3.02% ]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Votes :: 265

8:47am 8-9-04

It looks like out of a sample of 265 people 90.19% of people think we should seal the borders. :twisted:

Good grief.

Was this at the rednecks-r-us forum?

I mean shut down unauthorized access and make visas harder to get and easier to track.

That's not "sealing borders" by the way.


Nope http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=263169

And no it isn't but I couldn't change the title.

[John_T]

Must be a Tennessee thing Tom, nobody has ever bothered me about photographing anything. I lived in Oak Ridge for quite a while, quite a while ago so maybe that's why.

C'mon Penguin, just seal up Missouri. Think of all the advantages, no more federal taxes, keep all them furriners out, throw out whoevern yur like, charge tolls fer river traffic, start runnin likker agin. Yew cud have a whippup gud ol' tam, doan pay no matta ta nobuddie.

Thankit over... 8)

[Tom W]

I'm beginning to detect a bit of disdain for the folks out in flyover country. :)

Anyway, Penguin has a point in that there is no control over ingress and egress except for at the prescribed border crossings. While there are some economic advantages to be gained by using illegal immigrants for labor, the porous nature of our borders also lends to an ease of ingress and egress of people whose desire is way beyond personal economic gain.


Don't get me wrong - I would hope that nobody here is against immigration - most of my ancestors came to this country of their own free will. But immigration needs to be controlled such that those who's loyalties lie strongly against the US are discouraged from entry.

[neil_r]

It looks like out of a sample of 265 people 90.19% of people think we should seal the borders. :twisted:

As I said in the other post, there are many parts of the world that will agree with you, because sealed borders not only keep people out, they also keep people in :lol:

N

[ilya]

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=263169[/url]



My mistake, I should've said militant redneck forum :lol: :lol:

[Penguin_101_1]

What does that mean?

[neil_r]

What does that mean?

Having visited the forum and thread where the poll was taken, I think he means that the poll was not cunducted with rational, intelligent and worldly people who would genuinly represent a fair cross section of the general population of the United States.

But I may be wrong :?:

N

[Tom W]

What does that mean?

Ilya apparently lives in the state that brought us Frank Lautenberg.

[Penguin_101_1]

What does that mean?

Having visited the forum and thread where the poll was taken, I think he means that the poll was not cunducted with rational, intelligent and worldly people who would genuinly represent a fair cross section of the general population of the United States.

But I may be wrong :?:

N

Are you saying because I post on there I am not intelligent?

[Tom W]

What does that mean?

Having visited the forum and thread where the poll was taken, I think he means that the poll was not cunducted with rational, intelligent and worldly people who would genuinly represent a fair cross section of the general population of the United States.

But I may be wrong :?:

N

Are you saying because I post on there I am not intelligent?

I think what Neil is saying is that a poll conducted on AR15.com isn't representative of the general population of the US, but instead only represents a part of the population. That is true, if this poll was conducted only on that site. Other than that, I would argue that the people on that site are generally rational and intelligent, even if they don't share views of others. I occasionally go there for information concerning firearms.

I'm not to "up-to-date" on the worldly part.

[ilya]

What does that mean?

Ilya apparently lives in the state that brought us Frank Lautenberg.

Awww, are you upset about the "lead chickenhawk" comment :lol:
(referring to lautenberg's jab at cheney's attempts to downplay kerry's war record although never having served himself)

[neil_r]

Are you saying because I post on there I am not intelligent?

No I am not.

However some of the views expressed on that forum lean far more towards xenophobic ignorance that intelligent reasoned debate. So I guess it’s up to you. Do you fit into the former or latter school?

N

[ilya]

penguin, don't take offense, but i got a big kick out of the fact that I guessed right - and i've never been to that ar15 forum, but looking through it seems majority are the sort of folk that fit the definition of militant redneck. Not all, i'm sure present company excluded.

peace.
:D :D 8)

[Tom W]

What does that mean?

Ilya apparently lives in the state that brought us Frank Lautenberg.

Awww, are you upset about the "lead chickenhawk" comment :lol:
(referring to lautenberg's jab at cheney's attempts to downplay kerry's war record although never having served himself)

Actually, I dislike his stance on the second amendment. He's made almost as much effort to disarm his constituency as Hitler did in the late 1930's.

Kerry's war record will self-destruct all by itself (with the help of a few real vets that aren't on the DNC payroll).

[neil_r]

I am ducking out of this debate now because I have just remembered that I visit this forum to share views and talk about photography. I do not want to get into this stuff as it is ultimately frustrating as there can be no meeting of minds.

So for me it’s back to the Share, Critique, Post Processing and Gear forums because this is meant to be fun and an escape from all the horror and **** in the world, so bye bye and have fun

Neil
xxx

[ilya]

With that, its probably best to let this thread die...

Have fun everyone
8)

[Tom W]

I am ducking out of this debate now because I have just remembered that I visit this forum to share views and talk about photography. I do not want to get into this stuff as it is ultimately frustrating as there can be no meeting of minds.

So for me it’s back to the Share, Critique, Post Processing and Gear forums because this is meant to be fun and an escape from all the horror and **** in the world, so bye bye and have fun

Neil
xxx

Its OK, Neil. As you may have noticed, there are two distinct Americas right now. Mine, of course, is the right one. :)

Seriously, we've got a bit of a divide here, though not quite as big as in 1860. Its sometimes hard to not speak out when you see things that bother you. We'll probably never all agree on too much of anything political, but we have to do our best to state our own views while keeping it civil. After all, we are photographers, not politicians. I think anyway.....

[John_T]

Hmmm Tom, you got me thinking about politics, world politics.

If the US of A wants to convert the whole world to democracy, they're going to eventually be out voted about 20:1.

Maybe they'd better re-think that one... :lol:

[Tom W]

Hmmm Tom, you got me thinking about politics, world politics.

If the US of A wants to convert the whole world to democracy, they're going to eventually be out voted about 20:1.

Maybe they'd better re-think that one... :lol:

And that is as good a reason as any to reject the UN.

[Penguin_101_1]

Hmmm Tom, you got me thinking about politics, world politics.

If the US of A wants to convert the whole world to democracy, they're going to eventually be out voted about 20:1.

Maybe they'd better re-think that one... :lol:

The United States in NOT a democracy it is a REPUBLIC!

[Tom W]

Hmmm Tom, you got me thinking about politics, world politics.

If the US of A wants to convert the whole world to democracy, they're going to eventually be out voted about 20:1.

Maybe they'd better re-think that one... :lol:

The United States in NOT a democracy it is a REPUBLIC!

That is true.

I'm trying to remember the old saying but it goes something like this:

"A democracy is when you have 3 wolves and 2 sheep voting on what's for dinner. A constitutional republic is when you have the same 3 wolves and 2 sheep, but you're not allowed to eat sheep."

[John_T]

...hmmm. Perhaps that explains why both candidates talk so much about democracy...


PS: How do you tell the sheep from the wolves?

[Tom W]

...hmmm. Perhaps that explains why both candidates talk so much about democracy...


PS: How do you tell the sheep from the wolves?

The Wolves are the ones that claim that they and only they are capable of taking care of the sheep. They try to do so in part by stealing from other sheep in order to "earn" the vote of the majority of the sheep. They will also lure the sheep into the false sense of security that they claim to be able to provide. They will profess to protect the sheep from themselves.

Generally, the sheep get to vote for the wolf or sheep of choice (or perhaps against the worse of the available wolves, given that sometimes, neither choice is a true sheep). Sometimes, the Wolf will wear sheep's clothing. Some sheep are easily fooled, while others know the ways of the wolf and maintain their own individual security.

[Persian-Rice]

I'm sick of this stupid thread going on and on about what political ideal is right and what is wrong. If you are so smart, close the damn border. Unfortunately some people are too deep in their beliefs that they cant see any further then nose on their own face. That be political, religious or whatever idea you want to limit your train of thought by. Close the border, ever think of economy or what about trade? Ever think that the US engine is fueled by the natural resources of suffering countries around it. Closing the border will also stop the trade which in turn means the US will need to become Self Sufficient. Ever think that the your native land does not have the infrastructure to fuel it own needs for a prolonged future. Consider the fact that they have been feeding on the rich resources of other countries while not developing their own infrastructure to sustain life for the last 150 years.

What next? Print money until inflation turns the country into the next damn Russia?

These idiots post polls and give answers like HELL YA! Then they forget that the Nike pants, the Adidas shirt, the Puma shoe and even that stupid Sony monitor they are using to post their dumbfounded posts come from nowhere else but East Asia. Close the border, sometimes I think some of these Idiots truly deserve to get what they want. There is a reason people working at Walmart don't have a political say, which bring me to the idea of checking if GWB has ever worked for the Waltons.

John T I'm buying you a beer! I'm tired, whew what a rant!

[Penguin_101_1]

So you think that people coming across the border and trying to kill people is right? We should just put a red carpet across it. :roll: You didn't even read what closing the border means to me. You should go join that forum and post at that thread but you won't because it dosn't share your point of view. :roll: At least Americans can own weapons and have freedom.

FREEDOM IS NOT FREE

[Penguin_101_1]

IF WE STOPPED TRADE WITH OTHER COUNTRIES THE WORLD WOULD FALL APART, EVEN CANADA

[Ikinaa]

IF WE STOPPED TRADE WITH OTHER COUNTRIES THE WORLD WOULD FALL APART, EVEN CANADA

No need shouting...
Just out of curiosity :
What has America to offer that the others need?
On the other side: What does America need what the others have to offer?

[Ikinaa]

So you think that people coming across the border and trying to kill people is right? ...
Of course it is not...
One question (again... not meaning to start war, just out of curiosity): How many American soldiers are fighting in other countries in more or less 'good' wars...?

[John_T]

No, no, no Ikinaa, all American white anglo saxon protestants are good, everybody else is just evil. Sez so inna bible. You gotta listen to the preacher, boy. He's tha onny one who knows, an' he gits it direct right out God's mouth. Make no mistake about it. That's the way it is and that's the way it's gonna be so long as guns have their say an' freedom an' justiz an' rule o' law an' make no mistake about it. Unnerstan? Unnerstan? Yew jus gotta unnerstan tha facts o' life. Boy.

Belljum? Whurr's 'at?

[Ikinaa]

No, no, no Ikinaa, all American white anglo saxon protestants are good, everybody else is just evil. Sez so inna bible. You gotta listen to the preacher, boy. He's tha onny one who knows, an' he gits it direct right out God's mouth. Make no mistake about it. That's the way it is and that's the way it's gonna be so long as guns have their say an' freedom an' justiz an' rule o' law an' make no mistake about it. Unnerstan? Unnerstan? Yew jus gotta unnerstan tha facts o' life. Boy.

Belljum? Whurr's 'at?

protestants... hmmm I'm catholic... so that's the reason I don't understand this whole thing...
Thanks John for enlightening me... :wink:

What's Belljum? Wouldn't make me ill, would it? :lol:

[John_T]

...probbly does. :lol:

Say, I read somewhere around here that shouting in futile frustration and gun worship were sure symptoms of weeping impotence.

Anybody got a link to that link?

[Tom W]

You know, John, you've made a lot of sense in your posts, but you lose quite a bit of credibility when you resort to name-calling and such. I take it that your view of the second amendment is quite negative. That's fine, but when you start calling people impotent or making light of southern folks, you've crossed a boundary. You're no longer discussing ideas - you're trying to discredit those that don't agree with you.

For the record, I'm a gun owner as are approximately 90 million adult Americans. Most of us know why the right to keep and bear arms exists - it isn't about hunting or sports either. I also live in the south, though I grew up in the north. There's nothing unique about people with southern accents that makes them less intelligent than those who carry the language of the northeast, or whatever region of the country you prefer to hold superior.

As for the border problem, yes, there's an issue. Its been both hyped and veiled at the same time, and the issues surrounding the problem have been blurred, but there are a number of problems in several southern border states that needs addressing including overtaxing of the infrastructure, high rates of theft and gang violence, and taxpayer-funded medical and educational expenses. Washington's a little silent on the issue, as it has been for about 15 years. Its a bipartison issue, but few politicians are willing to touch it, mostly due to the PC hype that surrounds the issue. It isn't about race, but that's the card that the left always pulls when it can't argue the issues.

[John_T]

Not name calling. These are very serious issues and at the very root of our troubles.

One assumes sexual impotence Not at all. Impotence is the inability to empower ones life. It's basic. It's deadly. In one coutry or culture it expresses it self in one way, and in another the opposite.

Switzerland has among the highest gun ownership per capita ranking in the world, yet you don't hear much about it, to say nothing of shouting, boasting and threatening. In Switzerland, since vilolence is forbidden by it's culture, impotence finds it's expression in depression and suicide, again ranking among the highest in the world. Instead of open aggression and conflict, violence turns inward resulting in disease, hypocrasy and needling each other to death over a lifetime.

Wherever there is violence, there is impotence behind it. It cooks until it explodes, and then there is no reason, no sense, no intelligence. Just limitless devastation and rage, whether expressed inwardly or outwardly, it comes to the same end. Death.

I've carried a gun of one form or another, in my armpit, on my hip, in my hand in the car or any combination thereof for many years. Professionally. I can shoot with about anything that will throw a projectile. I've taken bullets and given bullets. Luckily none I got were permanent, which unfortunately I can't say for the other guy. It's not funny. It's not a pleasure. I don't feel in the least bit more important or fulfilled for it. As a matter of fact, whether you have been shot or killed someone else, it's the same. Have you ever looked in the dead face of someone you've killed, no matter what the justification? Immeasurable pain. Immeasurable.

These are issues. If we want to understand ourselves and to understand others, we need to get to the roots of what eats us. There is a wealth of information that can help us get to the roots of our frustration, and I feel it is our responsibility to stop avoiding it and start looking it in the eye.

It's like school, if you don't get it this year, you are going to have to repeat it 'til you do, next year, next life.

[Tom W]

IF WE STOPPED TRADE WITH OTHER COUNTRIES THE WORLD WOULD FALL APART, EVEN CANADA

Penguin, your message isn't necessarily wrong, but you've got to tone it down a little. The large red typeface gives the look of angry frustration rather than reasoned discussion. Sometimes, anger and frustration are inspired in these discussions, but its the internet - you have all the time in the world to work up a post (and I speak from experience here - there's been more than one time that I've answered a post somewhere in anger and haste).

[Tom W]

Not name calling. These are very serious issues and at the very root of our troubles.

They are serious.

One assumes sexual impotence Not at all. Impotence is the inability to empower ones life. It's basic. It's deadly. In one coutry or culture it expresses it self in one way, and in another the opposite.

I'm not sure that empower is the right word to use or not. Sometimes, words cannot settle a problem. Sometimes, the best defense is violent. It is (or should be) the last resort, but if you don't have that tool, you will be nothing but a tool yourself. That doesn't mean one needs to use force to get what they want - it means being able to muster up a defense if needed.

Something odd about human nature is some odd natural tendency to try to control others. Something else odd about human nature is the we don't like being controlled by others. Seeds for eternal clashing, I guess. As long as these differences and characteristics are recognized and dealt with above board in a rational manner, we can generally work things out. One advantage to our 3-branch government is that it allows a considerable amount of reasoned discussion (if only the pols would actually discuss things in a reasoned manner).

Switzerland has among the highest gun ownership per capita ranking in the world, yet you don't hear much about it, to say nothing of shouting, boasting and threatening. In Switzerland, since vilolence is forbidden by it's culture, impotence finds it's expression in depression and suicide, again ranking among the highest in the world. Instead of open aggression and conflict, violence turns inward resulting in disease, hypocrasy and needling each other to death over a lifetime.

Yeah, maybe we US folks like to shout a bit! :) Violence was shunned in this country as well, at certain times, but the US has had its share of interesting moments, starting with the Revolution itself, and including the Civil (?) War and plenty of nasty labor and racial disputes. Perhaps its the mixing of so many cultures that gives the US its decided, though occasionally muted volatility.

Wherever there is violence, there is impotence behind it. It cooks until it explodes, and then there is no reason, no sense, no intelligence. Just limitless devastation and rage, whether expressed inwardly or outwardly, it comes to the same end. Death.

I'm still not sure that impotence is the best word to use here. Perhaps it represents a breakdown or inability to communicate in a rational manner, for whatever reason. The word "impotence" implies that one party isn't able to act, but I would think that such impotence comes often when an adversary sees a weakness or an opportunity to take advantage of another. Some cultures have no "gentleman's agreements" or honor as we know it - they only know strength and weakness.

Violence should never be necessary, but it occasionally is. Its the last tool in the bag, but you'd better have it for if you don't, you will be destined, sooner or later, to be enslaved by others that don't see violence as the last resort but as their first resort.

I've carried a gun of one form or another, in my armpit, on my hip, in my hand in the car or any combination thereof for many years. Professionally. I can shoot with about anything that will throw a projectile. I've taken bullets and given bullets. Luckily none I got were permanent, which unfortunately I can't say for the other guy. It's not funny. It's not a pleasure. I don't feel in the least bit more important or fulfilled for it. As a matter of fact, whether you have been shot or killed someone else, it's the same. Have you ever looked in the dead face of someone you've killed, no matter what the justification? Immeasurable pain. Immeasurable.

I've had the good fortunes to have never had to carry in an official manner (they ended the draft a couple of years prior to my 18th birthday). I have also had the good fortune to have several friends that served in the military during Vietnam. Some have battle scars, some don't. Some don't talk about it much, but nearly all have seen the elephant. Its compelling that those of us that haven't been in battle or ultra-violent situations should listen to these vets. I don't think too many people would see battle as "funny" or pleasurable. I know that I don't take the issue lightly. It is serious. And I know that you don't take it lightly either.

These are issues. If we want to understand ourselves and to understand others, we need to get to the roots of what eats us. There is a wealth of information that can hep us get to the roots of our frustration, and I feel it is our responsibility to stop avoiding it and start looking it in the eye.

Its always best to try to understand - to get to the root as you say. And we have to keep trying. I hope that this thread, with as many twists and turns as it has taken, might help in that matter. Do note that there are a ton of issues, some interrelated, and some less so. I don't know how long you've been away from the US, but there are a lot of frustrations here right now.

It's like school, if you don't get it this year, you are going to have to repeat it 'til you do, next year, next life.

Unfortunately, you've stumbled across one of my other favorite issues. Schools don't seem to like repeating grades any more - they just keep passing the dummies along with the rest of the students until you get a batch of HS graduates that should still be in the forth grade.

Anyway, lets try to keep it civil (as best as we can anyway). Maybe all the world's problems can be resolved by a bunch of pro and amateur photographers. Wouldn't that paint a pretty picture? :)

[Persian-Rice]

Penguin, It is very obvious that other countries would suffer if the borders are closed, but they will not self destruct. Most of the counties outside of the US have the resources to become self sufficient. Other then Oceania, I have been to every continent in the world. I don't know about you, but once you travel abroad you will realize that American Goods and Services, other then Microsoft Windows, are very very few and far between.

Yes there is a huge amount of money made by exports from those countries, but they can easily start using their own goods and building their own countries. You must not forget, countries Like India, China, Japan, and many in the European Union are very very powerful. Especially considering China and India, those countries are nearing super power territory.

What I don't understand is, you seem to feel that American citizens are more important then the peoples of other nations. You are blatantly disregarding the fact that the United States invaded Iraq, killed many innocent civilians to achieve it's higher purpose. My problem with this is, you wage wars with others yet don't expect any retaliation. 911 was wrong, I would never say nor feel otherwise but it was a justified attack in many ways.

How many times did the US bomb the living life out of Iraq without a response? many more then the 5000 innocent civilians were killed in those. How many chemical weapons did the US sell to Iraq when they wanted Iraq to poison the people of Iran? How many times did the US bomb Kosovo killing many many innocent people in its greater cause? My friend, the US's hands are covered in innocent blood of millions and millions of people.

If the US was so interested in the well being of others and wanted to provide "humanitarian" aid, where were they in Rwanda? what about Ethiopia? or Uganda?

I bet you don't have a damn clue about what I'm talking about, yet you are an expert on what is politically correct for others and even your own country............

I don't agree with Tom W, but at least I respect the way he is trying to argue his opinion, unlike some people.

Cheers.

[Penguin_101_1]

Rwanda was the UNs fault, aided by the inaction of Bill Clinton. 900,000+ died.

If we have such little regard for "others" Then why do we welcome them to out shores? Furthermore, why do they bother coming?

"you will realize that American Goods and Services, other then Microsoft Windows, are very very few and far between."

- Then what is the source of our wealth? I guess booty from our imperialist ventures??? Why do we have 95% employment where France and Germany are both above 10%?

India, China, Japan, and many in the European Union are very very powerful. Especially considering China and India, those countries are nearing super power territory.


- Such subjective comments are the hallmark of the liberal. Lots of comment, little in the way of fact.

innocent blood of millions and millions of people.

- So no good has come from the United States?

:roll:

[CyberDyneSystems]

Oh lord when will it end.... :roll:


Keep it freindly though please... :wink:

[Tom W]

Penguin, It is very obvious that other countries would suffer if the borders are closed, but they will not self destruct. Most of the counties outside of the US have the resources to become self sufficient. Other then Oceania, I have been to every continent in the world. I don't know about you, but once you travel abroad you will realize that American Goods and Services, other then Microsoft Windows, are very very few and far between.

Importing and exporting aren't the problem (though there are some discrepancies that might be addressed on an individual basis). Nor is immigration and emmagration. It is the undocumented ingress/egress that has sparked the desire on the part of many Americans for the government to better control the borders. Too many problems are associated with both the unpoliced movement across the borders and the inability or lack of desire for some of our government officials to address those problems.

BTW, the US is a net import country WRT physical goods.

Yes there is a huge amount of money made by exports from those countries, but they can easily start using their own goods and building their own countries. You must not forget, countries Like India, China, Japan, and many in the European Union are very very powerful. Especially considering China and India, those countries are nearing super power territory.

China has had nukes for a long time, and by the sake of sheer numbers, the country is what I would consider a superpower. And yes, China and India are growing rapidly. But the world economy is very, very intertwined now. Any large country can have a detrimental effect on the rest of the world. Sure, the world would get over it, but it would create quite a difficult situation for quite a while.

What I don't understand is, you seem to feel that American citizens are more important then the peoples of other nations. You are blatantly disregarding the fact that the United States invaded Iraq, killed many innocent civilians to achieve it's higher purpose. My problem with this is, you wage wars with others yet don't expect any retaliation. 911 was wrong, I would never say nor feel otherwise but it was a justified attack in many ways.

This is probably where you and I would disagree a bit. First, you can count me as one of those people that place the citizens of my own country closer to the top of my list, just as I'd place my family and friends above that. That doesn't mean that I or anyone else needs to act to the detriment of those that aren't close, but it does mean that I will help those closer to me before I will help those farther away, all other things being equal. I'll always take the side of my own first.

As for Iraq, I'm in favor of the war. I know that its an unpopular opinion among some, but I've gone over most of the reasons already. The casualty count in Iraq has been impressively low, except among those few that choose to continue fighting. They attack at their own peril, while the rest of Iraq returns to a free country. I also realize that there are many in the middle east that wish very much that the Iraq situation would fail, and they are doing their best to disrupt things in that country. Their fear is that Iraq will emerge free, and without Religous-based rule.

I've got to say that I don't see any justification for 9/11, nor any of the other attacks on US interests in the past several years - including the first attempt to bring down the World Trade Center, the bombing of the USS Cole, or the numerous attacks on US embassies in a few spots. But the Embassies and the Cole were at least military/government targets. The twin towers were not, and there is no forgiving for that.

How many times did the US bomb the living life out of Iraq without a response? many more then the 5000 innocent civilians were killed in those. How many chemical weapons did the US sell to Iraq when they wanted Iraq to poison the people of Iran?

Good question. Other than when provoked, I don't believe that there were any bombings in Iraq. BTW, I'd like to see the source of those numbers as well as the "millions and millions" figure below. I'm skeptical.

How many times did the US bomb Kosovo killing many many innocent people in its greater cause? My friend, the US's hands are covered in innocent blood of millions and millions of people.

The US was dumb enough to let NATO and the UN drag them into the Kosevo situation. I wish we hadn't gone as there wasn't any US interest there that I know of. Nevertheless, nowhere near "millions and millions" of people, innocent or not, were killed. Somebody is giving you bad information.

If the US was so interested in the well being of others and wanted to provide "humanitarian" aid, where were they in Rwanda? what about Ethiopia? or Uganda?

Neither Rwanda nor Ethiopia nor Uganda are a threat to the well-being of the people of the United States. Nevertheless, I think you'll find that the US does send a goodly amount of its taxpayer's money to those countries.

I bet you don't have a damn clue about what I'm talking about, yet you are an expert on what is politically correct for others and even your own country............

I'll let Penguin answer that one!

I don't agree with Tom W, but at least I respect the way he is trying to argue his opinion, unlike some people.

Cheers.

Well, we're probably going to find more uncommon ground than common ground, but as long as we can continue to speak in a reasonable manner, you have my respect as well.

[Tom W]

Oh lord when will it end.... :roll:


Keep it freindly though please... :wink:

Its hard - but we're trying.....

[BoySpot]

Perhaps people ought to try and understand why things happen rather than reacting to the symptoms. If doctors always tried to fix the symptoms rather than the cause, people would be a lot sicker. On the whoe, people don't have a grudge against someone without a reason. Either they have something that you want or they have done something to you. I'm sure there will be examples but I can't think of any other reason why disputes get started. Once a grievance exists, there become s chance for the nutters in the world to try and cause trouble on that basis. Once you start fighting, the situation usually doesn't get resolved. The source of the grievance is the only way through it. Attack back, and people develop a bunker mentality. Milosevic was not too popular until the country started getting bombed. Then he became a brave leader in the eyes of many in his country. Bizarre, but that's human nature.

I grew up in the UK where we have a proud history of travelling around the world and subjugating people. Guess what. They weren't too grateful a lot of the time They didn't see much of the benefit that we got a lot of. Eventually it all fell apart. Until that time, there were a lot of terrorists - or freedom fighters depending on which side you were on. Another country is now the one that exerts its influence across many countries and they aren't always grateful. I would suggest that if you are unhappy about terrorists from the middle east who fight American influence, attacking a middle east country is not a good way to emphasise how right you are. We had this in Northern ireland for years. Put loads of troops on the ground and you don't win hearts and minds. You just make more people resentful. Each time you kill a real bad apple, you add a few more to the cause. It might not be right but then when have people's emotions ever been logical.

What was the name of the two characters in an old story? "Do As You Would Be Done By" and "Be Done By As You Did". Don't get bogged down in the details over stoppping people moving one way or the other. The 9/11 attackers were all in the US legally. Don't get into the gun control side of it. All you do is take people with views and get them to line up against each other. Have a think about why some things happen in the world and what actions caused those things in the first place, intentionally or otherwise. Then learn from it. This has all happened before. "The one thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history."

[CyberDyneSystems]

BoySpot,

This was the best post I have read in loonng time.

[Tom W]

Perhaps people ought to try and understand why things happen rather than reacting to the symptoms. If doctors always tried to fix the symptoms rather than the cause, people would be a lot sicker. On the whoe, people don't have a grudge against someone without a reason. Either they have something that you want or they have done something to you. I'm sure there will be examples but I can't think of any other reason why disputes get started. Once a grievance exists, there become s chance for the nutters in the world to try and cause trouble on that basis. Once you start fighting, the situation usually doesn't get resolved. The source of the grievance is the only way through it. Attack back, and people develop a bunker mentality. Milosevic was not too popular until the country started getting bombed. Then he became a brave leader in the eyes of many in his country. Bizarre, but that's human nature.

I'm of a different mindset. When there's an infection, a doctor needs to reach for the antibiotics. The bullies of the world - leaders of Iraq, Iran, N. Korea, et.al. will continue to be bullies as that is their nature. Like the big kid that threatens others on their way to school each day, he'll continue to do so as long as you give him your lunch money. Stand up to him and he stops doing it.

You can't continue to turn the other cheek forever, when its painfully obvious that the enemy won't stop attacking. The US has been quite restrained for quite a while in these matters. The entire period from Gulf War I to 9/11, the US sustained numerous attacks on its interests, while retaliating only in a symbolic manner.

As for the root cause, I suspect it has more to do with Israel than anything else. As long as the US supports Israel, the more extreme folks in the world of Islam will hate America. But America is not going to turn her back on Israel.

I grew up in the UK where we have a proud history of travelling around the world and subjugating people. Guess what. They weren't too grateful a lot of the time They didn't see much of the benefit that we got a lot of. Eventually it all fell apart. Until that time, there were a lot of terrorists - or freedom fighters depending on which side you were on.

One of those countries might have been the US. :)

But I see a world of difference between colonialism and the war on terror. We aren't settling and taking over Iraq - what we are doing is removing a dictator, much like was done with Milosovich. Now I really would have liked to have found those WMD's, since they were once accounted and are now missing, since that was one of the many important premises of the war. But, of course, it wasn't the only one. And you can't possibly blame the present US or British administrations for that situation. Much of what is missing was well documented, and known to many of various political persuasion.

Another country is now the one that exerts its influence across many countries and they aren't always grateful. I would suggest that if you are unhappy about terrorists from the middle east who fight American influence, attacking a middle east country is not a good way to emphasise how right you are. We had this in Northern ireland for years. Put loads of troops on the ground and you don't win hearts and minds. You just make more people resentful. Each time you kill a real bad apple, you add a few more to the cause. It might not be right but then when have people's emotions ever been logical.

I disagree, as expected. As the odds of survival diminish for bad apples, people will lose their desire to become one. And we didn't exactly attack a middle-east country - we liberated it from a particularly nasty dictator by the name of Saddam Hussein.

What was the name of the two characters in an old story? "Do As You Would Be Done By" and "Be Done By As You Did". Don't get bogged down in the details over stoppping people moving one way or the other. The 9/11 attackers were all in the US legally.

Most had overstayed their visas, meaning that they were not legal at the time. The problem remains that once in, they weren't accounted for.

Don't get into the gun control side of it. All you do is take people with views and get them to line up against each other.

I agree - that's a separate issue, but it is one near and dear to my heart as well.

Have a think about why some things happen in the world and what actions caused those things in the first place, intentionally or otherwise. Then learn from it. This has all happened before. "The one thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history."

True, but I probably think a little different about the root cause as well as the proper response as compared to you. As I said, the bully will never stop taking your lunch money as long as you keep giving it to him. Stand up to him and he may put up a little fight, but odds are that you'll get to eat lunch again.

[BoySpot]

To use your analogy, are you certain who stole who's lunch money...

[Tom W]

To use your analogy, are you certain who stole who's lunch money...

Yes, I am certain.

[Persian-Rice]

Tom, I can justify calling Hussein and Kim Jong Il as bullies. But I cant really see people calling Iran the bullies. Iran of all the nations in the mideast/arabs is one of the more reasonable places to live. Iran is not particularly run under a dictatorship. Lifestyles and advancements are very European other then the issue of the whole Islamic laws.

The unfortunate things is, the media in North America has disguised Iran and most of Saudi as being one of the countries that needs to be liberated and the current rule is a threat to the world. I won't deny that these governments are run behind closed doors and they do act in weird ways. I would probably know this a lot better then most as I have experienced it first hand.

If I was in the financial situation, I would move to Dubai any time of day. I'm sure if you ever went there you would want to do the same. Yet the media tries to make these places look a lot worse then they are. Particularly American Media.

Let me turn around and reverse the situation for you. Around the world, many of those countries feel that the US is a huge threat to them. You have to understand that the US has the most advanced arms in the world, yet they want to decide if other countries have the right to have any arms. It is sort of hypocritical. You want the best arms for your own defense and attack, yet other nations are not allowed to defend them selves from the US. The bigger problem the US government seems to mention time and time again the fact that these countries are threats. You know what? I agree there these countries are a threat to the position of the US in the world. If you are the best, why would you want anyone trying to challenge you? The fact of the matter is, the United States shows the most aggression and is known as the biggest bully of all. There is no other nation that has deployed is arsenal against other countries the amount of times the US has.

The problem I notice is, the US is not threatened by another countries nuclear capability, but the other countries ability to rise to extraordinary levels of power just like the US has.

BTW I did not want to make things ugly with Penguin, he just needs to justify what he is saying instead of jabbing one liners at people. Its always good to have a place that you can get your opinions out in a nice and argumentative manner. Throwing one liners and sarcastic comments are not only immature but end up escalating to the level of getting this good thread closed.

Cheers.

[John_T]

Imagine you had one RAW image that contained the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but you only had the regional RAW converter in your own language to work with.

Imagine that each region had it's own RAW converter in it's own language, and that that converter was written half by the local traditional old school programers and the other half by the marketing people.

Imagine that you really really wanted to get every drop of the truth out of that image, ignoring how the regional traditions, belief systems and marketers interpreted it, because you wanted the whole picture with no distortions, and no over or under saturation, contrast or sharpening.

How would you do it and to what lengths would you go to get it?

[Tom W]

Tom, I can justify calling Hussein and Kim Jong Il as bullies. But I cant really see people calling Iran the bullies. Iran of all the nations in the mideast/arabs is one of the more reasonable places to live. Iran is not particularly run under a dictatorship. Lifestyles and advancements are very European other then the issue of the whole Islamic laws.

I'll take a closer look at Iran. I know that some nations in the region have some internal turmoil - Saudi Arabia comes to mind. But I think Saudi is dealing with their own errant "citizens" fairly well.

The unfortunate things is, the media in North America has disguised Iran and most of Saudi as being one of the countries that needs to be liberated and the current rule is a threat to the world. I won't deny that these governments are run behind closed doors and they do act in weird ways. I would probably know this a lot better then most as I have experienced it first hand.

I haven't seen that much information on SA, but Iran has raised a few brows with its nuclear program. Syria, on the other hand, seems to be calming down a bit.

If I was in the financial situation, I would move to Dubai any time of day. I'm sure if you ever went there you would want to do the same. Yet the media tries to make these places look a lot worse then they are. Particularly American Media.

I'm not sure why I'd want to leave Chattanooga. ;)

Let me turn around and reverse the situation for you. Around the world, many of those countries feel that the US is a huge threat to them. You have to understand that the US has the most advanced arms in the world, yet they want to decide if other countries have the right to have any arms. It is sort of hypocritical. You want the best arms for your own defense and attack, yet other nations are not allowed to defend them selves from the US.

Its a wrong assumption to think that countries need to defend themselves against the US, unless they have been agressive against the US first. Contrary to the assertions of some, the US does not go attacking small countries for no apparent reason (I do recognize that hindsight is 20/20 WRT the WMD that are missing, but that was NOT the only reason for the liberation of Iraq).

The bigger problem the US government seems to mention time and time again the fact that these countries are threats. You know what? I agree there these countries are a threat to the position of the US in the world. If you are the best, why would you want anyone trying to challenge you? The fact of the matter is, the United States shows the most aggression and is known as the biggest bully of all. There is no other nation that has deployed is arsenal against other countries the amount of times the US has.

Unfortunately, the US is also looked upon whenever help is needed. As such, I don't think its right to consider the US the agressor in those situations, but rather, the primary force that others look to when they need an army. I'm not saying that is right, and I don't think the US needs to be the world's mercenaries.

The problem is the misrepresentation of the US as an agressor, when it is in fact these other small countries that cannot be trusted with WMD. Look at Saddam Hussein's past record, for example. The threat is in the use of these types of weapons against peaceful civilians. And the US is one such country that is full of peaceful civilians. And it's also a target, based on the War declarations of some of the more extreme people in that region.

Its too bad that news outlets like Al Jazeera are influencing opinions over there instead of reporting the news.

The problem I notice is, the US is not threatened by another countries nuclear capability, but the other countries ability to rise to extraordinary levels of power just like the US has.

The nuclear threat, while it always exists, isn't real big unless all those conspiracy theories about Russian suitcase bombs are true. Its the nasty terrorist acts that are the biggest threat. I would think that if the US were truly worried about countries having extraordinary powers, the country would be more concerned with Communist China.

BTW I did not want to make things ugly with Penguin, he just needs to justify what he is saying instead of jabbing one liners at people. Its always good to have a place that you can get your opinions out in a nice and argumentative manner. Throwing one liners and sarcastic comments are not only immature but end up escalating to the level of getting this good thread closed.

Cheers.

He probably needs to hone his discussion skills. I will admit, however, that sometimes, the jabbing can get things heated up in a hurry, and that's from both sides of the discussion.

[Tom W]

Imagine you had one RAW image that contained the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but you only had the regional RAW converter in your own language to work with.

Imagine that each region had it's own RAW converter in it's own language, and that that converter was written half by the local traditional old school programers and the other half by the marketing people.

Imagine that you really really wanted to get every drop of the truth out of that image, ignoring how the regional traditions, belief systems and marketers interpreted it, because you wanted the whole picture with no distortions, and no over or under saturation, contrast or sharpening.

How would you do it and to what lengths would you go to get it?

Well, if it were a Canon RAW image, I'd use EOS View Utility to open it! :) Now, if it were a Nikon RAW image, I would have to assume that it was not the truth, being that it would be from the dark side. ;)

[John_T]

...I think that's the primary problem...

[Tom W]

...I think that's the primary problem...

;)

[Mthorpe_Davies]

It's a sad state of affairs when you can't even take photos in your own country without US security boys getting upset and threatening to take away your camera.

I took a couple of photos of the US embassy in Wellington and was advised that I posed a security risk and it was in my best interests not to take any more. I being a straight up kinda guy told the guard where to go; the last time I looked NZ wasn't a police state, nor is it part of the US and I can take photos of whatever I liked. He then threatened to take my camera off me.

I found this quite amusing and continued snapping away, got a few good ones of a very pissed off guard standing behind his gate. I left and went home. I'm not going to let a foreigner tell me what I can and can't do in my own country!

It's very sad when another country tries to impose it's will upon others, I hope that one day the US will elect a sane leader and leave the rest of us in peace.

With regards to the initial post, I would be fairly confident that any aspiring terrorist could get all the photos he wanted of his intended target off the internet, just about anything of interest to a terrorist has probably been photographed at some time or other and is now just waiting to be looked up. If you really wanted photos a minox in the palm of your hand would get you everything you wanted without looking obvious.

All I can say is I'm glad that I live where I do. You wouldn't catch me wanting to live in a society that's a paranoid as the US and where personal freedoms can't be taken for granted.

Cheers

Mike

Proudly living in the world’s oldest democracy.

[Mthorpe_Davies]

IF WE STOPPED TRADE WITH OTHER COUNTRIES THE WORLD WOULD FALL APART, EVEN CANADA

Maybe if you learnt how to make a halfway decent car I might be able to accept your statement!

[JMAS]

To use your analogy, are you certain who stole who's lunch money...

Yes, I am certain.

I'll hate myself in the morning, for guetting into this discussion...

My life is Economy and Finance (a bit sad, I Know :wink: ), I work for a US based company and my country is a political allied of the US (yes, Azores is ours...).

That said, please be aware of this: Money has no country and no friends
Behind every war in history, the real cause is always (always) the same: Money
We may call it religion, defence of freedom, historical or sacred grounds, blah, blah, blah...
Those are not the fundamental reasons. Those are the reasons used to gather support, and it works for both sides.

Who could gain from an attack to the Twin Towers, the Finance Meca of Western civilization?
You would be surprised...

>Banking
>Industry, mainly:
-Guns
-Auto
and co-related : Steel, Telecomunications, Civil works...
>Energy suppliers, including Brent tradders (yes, Arab nations also).

Facts are that the World Economy was getting through a long crisis before the war, and in some circles, there was alredy much talk about how a war would be the salvation, as it has always been the case. After a reasonable War (not the quarrels in Africa) the participants expand at an incredible rate.

Those are facts. Wars were always very good for the Economy (World Economy).

Of course some countries that haven't developed a strong army after WWII, mainly Germany and France, would oppose.
Currency boosted (therefore pressured) countries like US and GB welcomed the leveraging.

Look at the price of the brent nowadays. Arab nations are developing a good fund raising.

Democracy
is an old Greek solution for leadership in the society. Often praised and welcomed, it certainly has it's flaws. People can be easilly fooled, herrr ... guided. Wolfs and sheep... I still preffer it over being forced...

Who really looses with the present War?
The ones that died, their families, friends and comunity.

Can the US survive alone, keeping the current political and economical model?
Certainly not, that's why globalisation is such an issue.
That would turn the US into a new Soviet Union (the irony...)

Gun Control
It's like Tobacco. The capital has long shifted from Tobacco to Guns. Before it was Alcohol.
Don't be fooled. There were some great parties I attended, when Mr. Bush won office...
I've attended other parties in the Clinton admnistration (not so glamourous, It's a fact)...

End note:
Keep both eyes open, fellows :shock: I'll certainly keep mine (I don't have a dSLR so it's the only way for me :lol: ), and please, let's grab those photo opportunities and share :D , while we can :roll: :P ...


Have fun,
Jaime

[John_T]

You hit the nail on the head Jaime. All the blah-blah about democracy. Capitalism is what most of world strife is about, with democracy as a smoke screen. The realities of capitalism are very undemocratic. Nothing wrong with capitalism because that's what feeds us, but capitalism is where the "national interests" are derived, which determines much of foreign policy and where the gloves come off.

On the most basic level, all conflicts are about who gets to eat and survive and how well. Very little is actually given without an expected return, and lots of strings attached. That may be human nature, but nobody likes it.

A starving person may be very grateful for the bread you give him, but is bound to be resentful if the bread is loaded with conditions. Such resentments accumulate over the decades and sooner or later explode. The "philanthropist" then gets angry because he doesn't get his "rightful" return and his conditions blow up in his face.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" are words in the Bible that, in the global sense, don't make it into real life. Maybe it's just an idealistic line that human beans aren't ready for yet.

[In Hoc Up2 Eyeballs]

No, no, no Ikinaa, all American white anglo saxon protestants are good, everybody else is just evil. Sez so inna bible. You gotta listen to the preacher, boy. He's tha onny one who knows, an' he gits it direct right out God's mouth. Make no mistake about it. That's the way it is and that's the way it's gonna be so long as guns have their say an' freedom an' justiz an' rule o' law an' make no mistake about it. Unnerstan? Unnerstan? Yew jus gotta unnerstan tha facts o' life. Boy.

Belljum? Whurr's 'at?


I agree with Tom. The tone here is inappropriate.

[In Hoc Up2 Eyeballs]

My advice would be, when confronted by authorities anywhere in the world, with few exceptions, to:

1. Politely and friendlily llsten to what they have to say,

2. Very politely and friendlily ask them to show you their badge or ID proving their authority,

3. Quite happily and innocently show them your ID,

4. Answer their questions and quite happily and innocently show them what you are doing and why,

5. Even if they are unfriendly and gruff, don't lose your cool and remain friendly and polite,

6. If they say you must come with them, and they have properly proven their authority, do as they say, but ask if you are voluntarily coming with them, or are you being arrested. Simply, with no rancor, and certainly not spouting your rights. Do_not_resist_arrest.

7. Never lose your cool, always take your time, take a pause and think carefully when answering a question, while keeping a clear mental picture of the whole chain of events. Knowing you have done nothing wrong and have nothing to hide, you have no reason not to cooperate.

8. If you are summoned to the police station, when you get there say that you want to call a friend, a relative or lawyer to be in your company for any further transactions. Claiming your rights will only annoy them, and won't change anything anyway.

9. An experienced officer will know in two minutes whether there is something to pursue or not. An in experienced and/or zealous officer may hope you are a terrorist he can catch and make himself a hero, or at least have a break from his boring life.

10. Know that the outcome depends on your behavior, not your rights. Save yourself a lot of grief, annoyance and trouble by just keeping your cool and your feet on the ground.


I support this advice. :D