Of Interest to Photographers and US Citizens Alike

[nighthawk]

I read this article from a photographer and I'm left wondering who the REAL terrorists are.

http://69.93.170.43/

Please read it through. It is a chilling example of what has happened to our Constitution.

All the more reason why US Citizens MUST get out and vote in this election.

I can't even express how angry I am right now!

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EDIT Please link to this discussion in another thread;

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=39142&start=0

****************************

[Qurlyjoe]

I work in Boston at a large private university. The Democratic National Convention was in town last week (as some of you may know. :) ) Right next door to where I work is a dormitory where a lot of security folks of various kinds were staying for the duration. (If you've ever seen FBI or Secret Service officers before, you'll know that they can be relatively easy to spot, especially when they travel in groups.)

Anyway, I had this amusing idea to take my camera to work with me and stand on the corner across the street and take pictures, just to see how long it took before I was "interrupted" in a manner as described in this account.

Needless to say, I decided against it. And I'm white. I could all too easily imagine the kind of "conversation" that would ensue.

I believe it was Ben Franklin who said something to the effect that, "Those who would give up their rights to preserve their freedom, deserve neither."

[IndyJeff]

I applaud the Seattle Policed Dept. How are they supposed to know you are a photography student or just a photo buff on an outing taking pictures.

If I see someone taking pictures of a bridge, making notes I would contact the police and I hope anyone else would too. This was the second time the guy was seen shooting this same bridge, and this time taking notes.
If your not doing anything wrong then why would you get mad about the authorities investigating a tip about suspicious activities? How can they stop terrorist attacks if they don't follow up on tips.

Nighthawk just how was his civil rights violated? Or the constitution for that matter? Maybe his common sense was violated but not his civil rights.

Lets say this mensa files a complaint and a lawsuit. The cops stop checking on people shooting at that bridge because of the lawsuit filed by said mensa. Then one day someone is out there taking pictures but the cops don't do anything about it. A week later the bridge is blown up and some people are killed. I am betting the mensa boy would be one of the first to say the cops weren't doing their job protecting the public.

If anything the cops should be commended on tracking him down.

[nighthawk]

Indy Jeff,
I don't disagree that at first they were doing their job to check on why he was there, after that everything he was put through amounts to harassment, and the last I checked I didn't need to show my "papers" or carry a travel visa in my own country unless I were doing something illegal. He had PERMISSION to take those photos from the park ranger. He had an assignment sheet from his teacher. They followed him to his HOUSE for gods sake. This is supposed to make me feel SAFE? If he were actually doing something suspicious or illegal, that would be another matter entirely. The the area was posted "no photos" or the ranger had said "no" I'd say he was asking for trouble. Even if he were doing something wrong, would he take a huge camera set-up and tripod to do it? I'd think a celphone with a camera would be more appropriate.

How long will it be before phone cameras are illegal? Or cameras?

I thought I was living in the USA, not Soviet Union or **** Germany.

[Belmondo]

This is precariously similar to another discussion we had a while back, and it got a little out of control. I hope we don't see a repeat of that this time.

These are difficult times, both for law enforcment and for the citizenry. We want the police to protect us, but not to inconvenience us. I don't know what the answer is, but I do agree with IndyJeff to this extent: if we make it impossible for law enforcement to do their job, we have no right to demand accountability when things get by them. Personally, I'm glad a concerned citizen was alarmed enough about this person's suspicious behavior to call the authorities. As to their possible excesses which made this person uncomfortable, I can only say that if all it took was a simple explanation to placate the police, I'm not sure you could convince me they'd done their job thoroughly. Bad guys have simple explanations, too.

We have to remember, not everyone who would like to see harm come to the US is a Middle Easterner; you only have to recall Timothy McVey to completely understand how deep the threat really is.

I hang around railroads taking pictures. That's something I've enjoyed doing since I was a kid. With the new climate in the world, I accept that from time to time, I will be made to explain my presence near railroad property as well as my preoccupation with the trains themselves. I'm ready for that, and will not be too upset when it happens.

[Penguin_101_1]

I work in Boston at a large private university. The Democratic National Convention was in town last week (as some of you may know. :) ) Right next door to where I work is a dormitory where a lot of security folks of various kinds were staying for the duration. (If you've ever seen FBI or Secret Service officers before, you'll know that they can be relatively easy to spot, especially when they travel in groups.)

Anyway, I had this amusing idea to take my camera to work with me and stand on the corner across the street and take pictures, just to see how long it took before I was "interrupted" in a manner as described in this account.

Needless to say, I decided against it. And I'm white. I could all too easily imagine the kind of "conversation" that would ensue.

I believe it was Ben Franklin who said something to the effect that, "Those who would give up their rights to preserve their freedom, deserve neither."

I wouldn't think you can get internet at prision. :wink:

[Penguin_101_1]

This is precariously similar to another discussion we had a while back, and it got a little out of control. I hope we don't see a repeat of that this time.

These are difficult times, both for law enforcment and for the citizenry. We want the police to protect us, but not to inconvenience us. I don't know what the answer is, but I do agree with IndyJeff to this extent: if we make it impossible for law enforcement to do their job, we have no right to demand accountability when things get by them. Personally, I'm glad a concerned citizen was alarmed enough about this person's suspicious behavior to call the authorities. As to their possible excesses which made this person uncomfortable, I can only say that if all it took was a simple explanation to placate the police, I'm not sure you could convince me they'd done their job thoroughly. Bad guys have simple explanations, too.

We have to remember, not everyone who would like to see harm come to the US is a Middle Easterner; you only have to recall Timothy McVey to completely understand how deep the threat really is.

I hang around railroads taking pictures. That's something I've enjoyed doing since I was a kid. With the new climate in the world, I accept that from time to time, I will be made to explain my presence near railroad property as well as my preoccupation with the trains themselves. I'm ready for that, and will not be too upset when it happens.

Was that mine? :lol: I am going to try to stop posting anything political. :lol: :wink:

[John_T]

I must say, out of experience, that it is so easy to photograph almost anything covertly, that anyone seen taking photos overtly is almost certainly innocent, and on questioning such a person his innocence should be assumed until proven otherwise.

All that is needed for photographs of strategic objects is a high resolution B&W camera the size of a matchbox cupped in one hand and snapped away without regard to the rule of thirds or any other semblance of art. These casual snaps can be stitched together into a negative that will make a print that could cover a wall. By now, any terrorist pretending to be a tourist or amateur photographer would have to be a suicidal idiot.

I hate to spoil the fun of people who like to play cops and robbers or watch too much TV and read bestsellers, but that's the reality. The only way to catch terrorists is through very professional and sophisticated undercover work. And lots of patience.

As for the rest of what I have read here, I see it for the most part as political polarization and vicarious mental mastersomething.

[Belmondo]

As for the rest of what I have read here, I see it for the most part as political polarization and vicarious mental mastersomething.

I hate these kinds of debates in a photography forum. John-T is right that these are polarizing issues that can never be resolved. Ultimately we will all end up in one of three camps---those who feel their rights are being trampled, those who think it's necessary, and the large majority of us who really would like to confine our discussions to photograpy.

[nighthawk]

I'm sorry that this has become such a debate. While I think every photographer should know about this incident and be prepared, I had no idea it would go this far.

[Tom W]

I'm sorry that this has become such a debate. While I think every photographer should know about this incident and be prepared, I had no idea it would go this far.

To the extent of bringing the issue forward, it is a good post. However, and I kind-of alluded to this point on the other thread, we have a guy that writes a story about how he allegedly was mistreated by some Seattle city cops, presumably because of his looks and activities. Then he shows the police report which has a simple statement regarding the incident. Two very divergent versions of the same incident.

I wouldn't even begin to take this incident, as it is written, at face value.

[IndyJeff]

Next time you see a cop at the 7-11 getting coffee or hitting on the semi-fat chick behind the counter ask him one simple question..."In a given day, how many people do you arrest who say they are innocent?" His answer will probably be something like, "In jail, everybody is innocent or their being framed by someone. There are no guilty people in prison."

[Penguin_101_1]

In Before the Lock

[John_T]

Perhaps it’s time for a reality check, not that I am somehow an authority on reality.

Among many other things, I have spent quite a few years in a US intelligence agency, as a deputy sheriff, as a bodyguard, and as a security consultant for some pretty threatened installations and persons. Any halfway sane, intelligent and experienced cop or agent will tell you, if he tells you anything, that he follows his intuition, digs out the facts, works like an auditor, and reserves his fantasy for bedtime.

The representations of entertainment, popular novels, even “documentaries”, and often the media itself, are so mentally and factually absent from reality on the ground, it is ridiculous and dangerously irresponsible. Their objectives are profit, but that is no valid justification.

The mission and objectives of government and its agencies is purportedly protection. Though as we have recently seen, when government agencies get influenced by politicians or caught up in politics, and start creating scenarios for the purpose of achieving some supplanted ambition, presenting manipulated and unbalanced “proof”, this is in itself criminal with potentially grave consequences. Further, it treats the cop, the agent and the common citizen as a pawn.

From WW I through the Cold War and through all the other “wars” on this or that, seldom has anyone successfully hindered determined people from getting photographs or information they sought. Besides, for the vast majority of information or photographs, you only need to visit the local library or crank up Google. The NSA are masters at it. If I were to use the right combination of “keywords”, they would pick up on this right here.

Far more dangerous than terrorists is the abuse of power and public office. The oldest ploy for attaining power and domination is to create an enemy or “evil doer” and propose yourself as the best protector. The Pharos did it with the blacks, whites and Jews, Hitler with the non-Aryans and the Jews, Stalin with the capitalists and the Jews, the Muslims with the infidels and the Jews, the Jews with the goyim, the Tutsis with the Hutsis, and now whom with us?

It is much, much easier to create enemies than win friends. It is much, much easier to polarize people to manipulate and dominate them through fear, than to resolve the issues and establish a harmony of mutual trust.

In **** Germany, Mao’s China and Stalin’s Russia, people were taught to spy on each other, even children on their parents. Even today in Germany you will see hawkeyed pensioners spying on their neighbors, writing down license numbers of imperfect parkers and threaten to report them to the police for any imagined infraction. Illusions of power for impotent lives through days of futility. And it is easier to recruit frustrated zealots than stable citizens to serve the greedy. Is this what we want in our lives?

The vicious circle the world is currently caught up in will never, never be resolved by force. Force will only result in mutual self-destruction. Violence begets violence, as harmony begets harmony.

And reality will always, believe it or not, sooner or later, catch up with you. :lol:

:lol:

[nighthawk]

I just want to say again, that I never intended this to spark such debate. I appreciate everyone's input and I DO mean everyone! Especially those who don't see things the way I do. It's an excelent way to gain perspective on a subject rather than simple complaining to people who agree with you.

I want you to know that even though we may differ philosophically, I still respect your work in this forum. Many of the people who have shared have exhibited magnificent photography and offer spot-on critiques to those who ask. I hope this doesn't affect our interactions in the rest of the board, my hope is that people have learned from what was shared. I know I have.

Thank you.

[John_T]

Just do us a favor in the future and don't double post, or maybe we won't buy in to your claims of innocence. :roll:

[ilya]

This brought me out of my self-imposed exile

John_T, great prose

There is, as always, a bigger issue.

Never mind that my blond blue-eyed wife gets checked vigorously at every airport checkpoint, while men of middle-eastern descent go through unfettered under the overarching auspice of thou shalt not racially profile.

Never mind that a simple lighter that has lots of family value to me gets taken away and subsequently never returned (stolen at airport security).

Never mind that I have to make recruiting decisions based not on qualifications. (this is not the same thing, but a similar in terms of a well intended policy gone very bad)

What drives me nuts is that processes and procedures have been created that smack of the Stalin era, history of which I'm fairly familiar with.

Its that bureacratic regimented money-wasting inefficient bulky ignorant blind oppressive infrastructure that does not even attempt to consider the effectiveness of the policy, but rather infuses the orderly march of blind ignorance throughout the organization (read homeland security adminsitration). Its a waste of money, and it encourages a culture of doing for doing sakes.

More interestingly, and to John's point, US recent history shows that its extremely easy to install an overzealous quagmire of paranaia right here. Look no further then the "pinko" era of where innocent people were thrown in prison and stripped of all rights on a hunch, hint, or suggestion from an overactive imagination of a neighbor.

It may be a stretch, but I sure don't like the direction this is going in.

Ilya

[Persian-Rice]

He considered this harrasment?

He got off easy, atleast his name was not Ali or Mohhamad......................he would have given you guys a lot more exciting story.

I hate to say it, but many, not all, of you guys don't think it is an issue until it happens to you, then its a travesty. Welcome to reality, this stuff is happening and its a lot worse then you guys think.

Maybe you guys should try crossing the border with me. What about talking to my family overseas and hearing about what is actually happening?? would you accept it if it happened to your family?? Many of you guys also believed what the government told you about Vietnam, then you learned the truth. The majority of the world doesnt hate the United States because they are so fair and helpful......... This is just another example, how they even do it to their own.

[Penguin_101_1]

Ok. I think we need to close ALL borders. Not because Canadians are a big threat but that Mexico, Canada and the US are allowing people to get through and become a threat. Not all Mexicans or Canadians are bad but they should only be let over if they are a U.S. citizen or have a passport and they need to be limited on passports to a few states.

Just my $0.02. I do not want this to cause a problem.

[John_T]

No Ilya, you aren't stretching it a bit. It's staring you in the face. I was in the Cold War and I am intimately aware of the creeping and insidious evolution of a police state, it's methods, it's objectives and it's motivations. I've personally dealt with enough ex(?)****s, concentration camp inmates, common citizens, frothing communists, silent resistors, everyday consequences for the innocent, to have a fair insight into how it all happens. When you read it in the "history" books it seems self-evident. When it's happening in the present and happening to you, you just don't get it until late in the game.

The US credits itself with the fall of the Soviet Union. Nonsense. It was already crumbling and falling under it's own weight of oppression, fanaticism, impossible economics and corruption. Mikail Gorbachov had the wisdom and insight to recognize that you can't hold up a fat lady with spindly legs forever and let her fall on her ass, and to pick up the pieces and see what could be done with them.

When a person, a people, a nation can't learn from the errors of others, they are bound to try it themselves. That's what's happening, plain and simple. If you can't jump off the bus, or dump the driver, well, you are in for the ride.

[neil_r]

Ok. I think we need to close ALL borders. Not because Canadians are a big threat but that Mexico, Canada and the US are allowing people to get through and become a threat. Not all Mexicans or Canadians are bad but they should only be let over if they are a U.S. citizen or have a passport and they need to be limited on passports to a few states.

Just my $0.02. I do not want this to cause a problem.

As I said in the other thread:-
A xenophobic on an international forum that is not even hosted in the US.

I irony is wonderful, the sentiment sucks….

I really do not want to make a comment on US foreign policy because ours in the UK is no better, but I can assure you that there are several countries in the world that would love the US to close its boarders and not because it would keep people out :shock:
N

[Penguin_101_1]

No Ilya, you aren't stretching it a bit. It's staring you in the face. I was in the Cold War and I am intimately aware of the creaping and insidious evolution of a police state, it's methods, it's objectives and it's motivations. I've personally dealt with enough ex(?)****s, concentration camp inmates, common citizens, frothing communists, silent resistors everyday consequences for the innocent to have a fair insight into how it all happens. When you read it in the "history" books it seems self-evident. When it's happening in the present and happening to you just don't get it until late in the game.

The US credits itself with the fall of the Soviet Union. Nonsense. It was alread crumbling and falling under it's own weight of oppression, fanaticism, impossible economics and corruption. Mikail Gorbachov had the wisdom and insight to recognize that you can't hold up a fat lady with spindly legs forever and let her fall on her ass, and to pick up the pieces and see what could be done with them.

When a person, a people, a nation can't learn from the errors of others, they are bound to try it themselves. That's what's happening, plain and simple. If you can't jump off the bus, or dump the driver, well, you are in for the ride.

Ronald Reagan ended the cold war by causing them to bascally run out of money.

Read this:
" At 3:30 A.M. on November 11, 1982, Nancy and I were awakened by a telephone call from my national security advisor, who told me Brezhnev had just died. I asked George Bush and George Shultz to attend the funeral along with our ambassador in Moscow, Arthur Hartman. Before Brezhnev's death, I had decided I was going to announce, in the middle of November, a lifting of the sanctions on construction of the trans-Siberian pipeline because our major trading partners had agreed to impose limited trade and credit restrictions on the Soviets."

http://www.ronaldreagan.com/ussr.html

[ilya]

John_T -

Let me boil it down to Propaganda. It exists in every country and in every time period under many guises. The most hideous example of self-delusion is when the American media constantly portrays that it was the US that won World War II... and laughingly the vast majority of people believe that.

Propaganda thus made folks believe that Reagan single-handedly brought down the Berlin wall. I couldn't agree with you more that this was going to happen regardless; communism is an example of an idealogy, (or "a wonderful experiment" said Roosevelt), which couldn't possibly succeed. But its propaganda that kept this boat afloat. Folks like Solzhenitzin were smart enough to know better, but the administration was also smart enough to know the dangers of when the masses become enlightened by the truth.

In today's world, we have a choice though. We don't have to believe everything we read or see on tv.

Edit - Now I see that Penguin dug up some propaganda, which makes for a nice illustration.

[John_T]

With the exception of the upper few, and perhaps not even they, in their fervor and zeal, blinded by their beliefs, the perpetrators and proliforators of "information", read propaganda, don't really recognize what they are doing as anything other than "right". You can talk to them until you are blue in the face, but you might as well yell at the wall and you may well get shot for your trouble.

I've had plenty of training and practice in disinformation, leaking secret documents, altering photographs, whispering rumors, it's easy, and if you are as much of a jerk as I was, it is fun. Long after the fact, I got to know some of Nixon's dirty tricks gang. They all had new jobs, very well paid, doing the same thing for somebody else.

No need for paranoia, that's just reality. The only thing one can do is run your own reality checks. Regularly. :wink:

[ilya]

Sounds like a nice gig. So whose campaign were you running? :lol:

[Penguin_101_1]

Sounds like a nice gig. So whose campaign were you running? :lol:

John T = John Kerry and John Edwards :lol:


:wink:

[John_T]

Government work then, no, nul, niente, nullo, zero interest in politics then or now.

Stooge and his subversive boss Evil Kanevil or Preppy & Chirpy? Think I would prefer Colin Powell or Kofi Anand. Maybe Ahnold?

There's nobody on the horizon, but anybody wanting that job must be insane as a prerequisite anyway.

Preppy's wife is probably the best candidate, on her conditions.

Ha! Like that.


(B&W, stuff it.)

[Tom W]

Can't we all just get along??!!

Seems to me that things have gotten a bit political, which was not unexpected given the initial post.

[Penguin_101_1]

Can't we all just get along??!!

Seems to me that things have gotten a bit political, which was not unexpected given the initial post.

How did we get to the USSR anyway? :?

I had a post that said that I was going to stop posting but my internet connection went down so there you have it.

[John_T]

I've felt this line, based on the same story, has been brewing in the background since the previous thread got justifiably locked. Just thought I'd run with it to see if we all can get along and keep a sense of humor.

The whole subject is a Catch 22. You can't have security without resolving the issues and if there is unwillingness or incompetence in resolving the issues you can kiss security goodbye.

For many people it is unsettling and threatening whether they admit it or not and there need to be places where they can let it out without some repercussions.

In the process it becomes quite obvious where the polarities pop up and that might give pause for a little self questioning, contemplation and maybe even a hint of re-evaluation, God forbid. :roll:

[Belmondo]

How did we get to the USSR anyway? :?


Fairy dust. :wink:

But what does any of this have to do with photography? :?

I just spent 10 1/2 hours driving to Reno. I'm tired and I'm cranky. I have a slow connection in my hotel room, and instead of being outside taking pictures of hot rods, I'm sitting here making sure we all play nicely. :lol:

[Tom W]

Perhaps it’s time for a reality check, not that I am somehow an authority on reality.

Among many other things, I have spent quite a few years in a US intelligence agency, as a deputy sheriff, as a bodyguard, and as a security consultant for some pretty threatened installations and persons. Any halfway sane, intelligent and experienced cop or agent will tell you, if he tells you anything, that he follows his intuition, digs out the facts, works like an auditor, and reserves his fantasy for bedtime.

The representations of entertainment, popular novels, even “documentaries”, and often the media itself, are so mentally and factually absent from reality on the ground, it is ridiculous and dangerously irresponsible. Their objectives are profit, but that is no valid justification.

I tend to agree to a certain extent, but it isn't just the profit motive - there's a lot of other factors that go into bad media reporting including preconcieved notions on the part of newspeople and a plain lack of knowledge of the subject. I can't tell you how many times I've seen gross inaccuracies in reporting.

The mission and objectives of government and its agencies is purportedly protection. Though as we have recently seen, when government agencies get influenced by politicians or caught up in politics, and start creating scenarios for the purpose of achieving some supplanted ambition, presenting manipulated and unbalanced “proof”, this is in itself criminal with potentially grave consequences. Further, it treats the cop, the agent and the common citizen as a pawn.

Power corrupts - absolute power corrupts absolutely. That's why we have a second amendment.

From WW I through the Cold War and through all the other “wars” on this or that, seldom has anyone successfully hindered determined people from getting photographs or information they sought. Besides, for the vast majority of information or photographs, you only need to visit the local library or crank up Google. The NSA are masters at it. If I were to use the right combination of “keywords”, they would pick up on this right here.

Given the internet's capabilities, I'd say that information acquisition is accelerated, though a secret can still easily be kept among small groups.

Far more dangerous than terrorists is the abuse of power and public office. The oldest ploy for attaining power and domination is to create an enemy or “evil doer” and propose yourself as the best protector. The Pharos did it with the blacks, whites and Jews, Hitler with the non-Aryans and the Jews, Stalin with the capitalists and the Jews, the Muslims with the infidels and the Jews, the Jews with the goyim, the Tutsis with the Hutsis, and now whom with us?

It is an old ploy, but when there really is an enemy, it is best to take action and precautions against it. The question in this case is how far those actions should go. Despite the writings of the original link, I don't see any actions in the US against any specific group of people, though there are many around us here that think it should happen. The "authorities" are pretty generic in their actions.

It is much, much easier to create enemies than win friends. It is much, much easier to polarize people to manipulate and dominate them through fear, than to resolve the issues and establish a harmony of mutual trust.

Sometimes, harmony and mutual trust are not possible. At least not with all people. Sometimes, a group of people are so inclined and so biased against others that the hatred, regardless of its lack of logic, cannot be overcome. Such is the kind of hatred that seems to emulate from groups such as Al Qaida.

In **** Germany, Mao’s China and Stalin’s Russia, people were taught to spy on each other, even children on their parents. Even today in Germany you will see hawkeyed pensioners spying on their neighbors, writing down license numbers of imperfect parkers and threaten to report them to the police for any imagined infraction. Illusions of power for impotent lives through days of futility. And it is easier to recruit frustrated zealots than stable citizens to serve the greedy. Is this what we want in our lives?

I'm in favor of 'live and let live', until I'm crossed. I would expect my country to do the same. However, I would also expect that silly things don't become a matter of such great importance. That's where unrealistic fears can drive people beyond a rational point.

I'm enough of a skeptic that I will not take the original link as a true rendering of what happened that particular day - people have a tendency to imbellish their case in public in order to present themselves in the best possible light (IOW, everyone on death row claims innocence). But if one were to take that writing at face value, the conclusion might be rather grim.

The vicious circle the world is currently caught up in will never, never be resolved by force. Force will only result in mutual self-destruction. Violence begets violence, as harmony begets harmony.

And reality will always, believe it or not, sooner or later, catch up with you. :lol:

:lol:

I would love to see a world with no violence, but as long as someone threatens to kill me or my people, I'm not going to stand by and watch. I know we're of different minds on this issue, but I prefer to stop my enemies before they harm me rather than afterwards. You cannot stop force with pacifism. Its never worked before and it won't work now.

[Tom W]

How did we get to the USSR anyway? :?


Fairy dust. :wink:

But what does any of this have to do with photography? :?

I just spent 10 1/2 hours driving to Reno. I'm tired and I'm cranky. I have a slow connection in my hotel room, and instead of being outside taking pictures of hot rods, I'm sitting here making sure we all play nicely. :lol:

Hummmph - you're about to spoil the fun!!

[Tom W]

John_T -

Let me boil it down to Propaganda. It exists in every country and in every time period under many guises. The most hideous example of self-delusion is when the American media constantly portrays that it was the US that won World War II... and laughingly the vast majority of people believe that.

It was a team effort, but the outcome of the war would have been drastically different had the US not been involved.

Propaganda thus made folks believe that Reagan single-handedly brought down the Berlin wall. I couldn't agree with you more that this was going to happen regardless; communism is an example of an idealogy, (or "a wonderful experiment" said Roosevelt), which couldn't possibly succeed. But its propaganda that kept this boat afloat. Folks like Solzhenitzin were smart enough to know better, but the administration was also smart enough to know the dangers of when the masses become enlightened by the truth.

Reagan was paramount in accelerating the demise of the wall. Unfortunately, socialism/communism still lives despite its collapse. Roosevelt was wrong about communism being a "wonderful experiment" - it was a terrible experiment.

In today's world, we have a choice though. We don't have to believe everything we read or see on tv.

Edit - Now I see that Penguin dug up some propaganda, which makes for a nice illustration.

Is it propaganda just because you don't choose to believe it? You're right in that we don't have to believe everything we see or read, but one needs to be careful about throwing out the baby with the bath water.

[ilya]

Tom W - don't worry, America can do better ... Help is on the way. I actually like that :D

You are unfortunately incorrect. (be glad my wife doesn't see your post)

America doesn't join the party till its over. The Brits, however, are in the game from the start.

The first time its over is Feb 2, 1943 - Germans surrender at Stalingrad in the first big defeat of Hitler's armies.

Then Russians systematically drive Germans from Russia. Allied forces are mainly concerned in 1943 with helping Italians switch sides, and Americans are a small part of that.

D-Day as you well know is June 1944. By that time, Hitler is out of Russia, out of Poland, out of Italy, out of Africa, out of Crimea, out of Ukraine, Chezchia, etc. The brits are bombing the heck out of berlin long before that. What's left ... ? Its over, and the US plays a tiny part in the Allied forces.

I would say the Brits played a good part in the outcome.

But to say the outcome would be different if it were not for the US is ... well... a result of propaganda :D

cheers
ilya

[John_T]

As perhaps we are demonstrating here, it is possible to exchange views and experiences while keeping a perspective and not losing it to polemics, whether it is about goldfish or photography.

It is possible to consider that someone else may have other experiences and beliefs, while examining ones own.

While it may be that one person has taken bullets and delivered a few and the other has only watched it on TV or played Unreal Tournament that doesn't mean there is no common ground.

When different societies, religions, politics, customs or geography are totally different and perhaps diabolically opposed, it doesn't prevent individuals from exchanging recipes for soup.

It could be that it is not necessary to get all serious and up tight about things when at the same time it might also be possible to laugh about it or go for a walk.

I think that is why the Greeks founded the forum, but I might be mistaken...

[John_T]

I took one of these two photos while the sky was overcast and fog was wafting by with a Pro 1.

My girlfriend took the other after the sun came out with a G5.

Same hopper, which is right?

http://www.fredmiranda.com/hosting/data//3695/20945Katydid-pro-1.jpg
http://www.fredmiranda.com/hosting/data//3695/20945Katydid-G5.jpg

[Ikinaa]

As perhaps we are demonstrating here, it is possible to exchange views and experiences while keeping a perspective and not losing it to polemics, whether it is about goldfish or photography.

It is possible to consider that someone else may have other experiences and beliefs, while examining ones own.

While it may be that one person has taken bullets and delivered a few and the other has only watched it on TV or played Unreal Tournament that doesn't mean there is no common ground.

When different societies, religions, politics, customs or geography are totally different and perhaps diabolically opposed, it doesn't prevent individuals from exchanging recipes for soup.

It could be that it is not necessary to get all serious and up tight about things when at the same time it might also be possible to laugh about it or go for a walk.

I think that is why the Greeks founded the forum, but I might be mistaken...

John...

I think you are a wise man... from what you say here, which is only a small part of you,
so I can't tell you're a wise man, I don't know you personally, only through your avatar here.
You could be a complete different...
So... the one person who can tell by having a small bit of information of a small part of the world, what's right or wrong, is a genius and I will personally vote for him next time there's an election for 'Master of the Universe'
Nonetheless, I agree with the text I just quoted from you... with this small bit

Anyway, I prefer the second hopper... :twisted: I guess it's not yours because the picture is labeled ...G5.
But that's not the reason... I prefer it because I like better what I see, very subjectif, not?

[John_T]

Thank you for the flowers Ikinaa, I speak out of experience, but remain an idiot.

The question was which hopper is right?

PC vs. Mac, Intel vs. AMD, Canon vs. Nikon, Bush vs. Kerry, BMW vs. Mercedes, Fiji vs. Cuba, tables vs. chairs, pots vs. pans, experiences may vary, prejudices may impose, emotions may flare, analysis may be inconclusive, tastes may reject, imprints may take over, but reality remains the same, unchanged by it all. You can even choose both!

Why not?

:lol:

[Ikinaa]

Thank you for the flowers Ikinaa, I speak out of experience, but remain an idiot.

The question was which hopper is right?

PC vs. Mac, Intel vs. AMD, Canon vs. Nikon, Bush vs. Kerry, BMW vs. Mercedes, Fiji vs. Cuba, tables vs. chairs, pots vs. pans, experiences may vary, prejudices may impose, emotions may flare, analysis may be inconclusive, tastes may reject, imprints may take over, but reality remains the same, unchanged by it all. You can even choose both!

Why not?

:lol:

My opinion on the hopper was entirely subjective. That doesn't tell us which is right of course, it's my choice... But it's not always that easy.
Sometimes you have opposite alternatives which subjectively could be right both, so where's the answer then? Either you dig deeper or leave this question unanswered, for a reason or another...
Nothing is black and white, not even black and white. There's always blacker and whiter :twisted:

[Tom W]

Tom W - don't worry, America can do better ... Help is on the way. I actually like that :D

You are unfortunately incorrect. (be glad my wife doesn't see your post)

America doesn't join the party till its over. The Brits, however, are in the game from the start.

The first time its over is Feb 2, 1943 - Germans surrender at Stalingrad in the first big defeat of Hitler's armies.

Then Russians systematically drive Germans from Russia. Allied forces are mainly concerned in 1943 with helping Italians switch sides, and Americans are a small part of that.

D-Day as you well know is June 1944. By that time, Hitler is out of Russia, out of Poland, out of Italy, out of Africa, out of Crimea, out of Ukraine, Chezchia, etc. The brits are bombing the heck out of berlin long before that. What's left ... ? Its over, and the US plays a tiny part in the Allied forces.

I would say the Brits played a good part in the outcome.

But to say the outcome would be different if it were not for the US is ... well... a result of propaganda :D

cheers
ilya

Britain's efforts are not to be discounted, but don't forget the enormous amount of supplies that the US sent to Britain even before any US soldier made direct contact with the enemy. I'm not sure how long Britain could have held out without that effort. I don't have any statistics handy, but a large number of US merchant ships bound for England were sunk by U-Boats before they made their destination.

And D-Day could not have happened had the US not been "volunteered" to take on the hardest beach of the invasion, Omaha beach. :)

And don't forget that Stalingrad happened after the US' entry into the war. Russia was guarding her flank against a potential Japanese invasion from the east, and thus had a considerable force in reserve at the eastern end of the country. When Japan drew the US directly into the war in the Pacific, it took some pressure off Russia who then could concentrate more on defeating the German assault. As well, US involvement kept Germany busy in Italy and North Africa. Germany wasn't big enough to take on that many fronts.

And, of course, we cannot discount the efforts of the great General George S. Patton, under whom my Dad had the privilege to serve. He seemed to have the uncanny ability to battle directly against superior German armor (the Tiger tank for example) and come out on top.

[Ikinaa]

And here we are back to the same war as some months ago somewhere in these forums...
Did I miss something or has the subject changed...
I thought the subject was about some authority people feeling superior...

sorry to spoil the fun of certain people comparing this and that

[Tom W]

And here we are back to the same war as some months ago somewhere in these forums...
Did I miss something or has the subject changed...
I thought the subject was about some authority people feeling superior...

sorry to spoil the fun of certain people comparing this and that

Its nothing to worry about, Ikinaa. Threads like this tend to migrate a bit, just as any conversation does. And often, the conversation drifts when comparisons are made to other time frames. WWII was a good lesson in many ways, and has many issues that can relate directly to events and perceptions of today. Its also a great and important subject in itself, and is worthy of discussion within its own context.

Besides, we all carry a bit of history, and none of us like our own families and ancesters' efforts discounted. Dad had more than a few German bullets whizzing past his head in 1944. Fortunately, none found its target. Ilya's ancestry is certain to remember the relentless bombing in London in 1940, just as your family might remember when Luxembourg was overrun.

Maybe we just talk about this stuff to remind ourselves of why we should be trying the more peaceful way to resolve issues before resorting to the more final, destructive method. Yes, its a great wander away from the original post, but is that really important?

[Ikinaa]

IMO everyone should learn from history (if it isn't corrupted hopefully), that I agree with you, but this discussion : how much % everyone had in the success of liberation and stopping wwii is in my eyes pointless (at least here)
And yes : my family remembers 1939-1945 and was happy when it was over, my father was born in 1935 and my mother in 1939 and they tell about their memories.
General Patton is buried in Luxembourg (as you perhaps know), we have a number of wwii memorials here, we remember.

[ilya]

There is no right or wrong here.

My point was simply that each nation's media brainwashes their constituencies, likely unintentionally.

There is also no conflict here, just some intellectual debate. There is nothing wrong with that.

Its a nice break from taking pictures of rulers ...

Ilya

[Tom W]

IMO everyone should learn from history (if it isn't corrupted hopefully), that I agree with you, but this discussion : how much % everyone had in the success of liberation and stopping wwii is in my eyes pointless (at least here)
And yes : my family remembers 1939-1945 and was happy when it was over, my father was born in 1935 and my mother in 1939 and they tell about their memories.
General Patton is buried in Luxembourg (as you perhaps know), we have a number of wwii memorials here, we remember.

Perhaps it is pointless to some to discuss the war in this manner, but it is the "general chat" area of the forum.

Thanks for remembering, by the way. Not everybody does. Your parents have, no doubt, some very strong memories about the war, many of which they may never share. Dad doesn't talk much about the war either.

[Tom W]

There is no right or wrong here.

My point was simply that each nation's media brainwashes their constituencies, likely unintentionally.

On that, I agree wholeheartedly. I suspect that we wouldn't always agree as to which statements in the media were correct or incorrect, but I believe that there is enough overlap where we'd agree that in general, they are wrong more often than accurate.

There is also no conflict here, just some intellectual debate. There is nothing wrong with that.

Its good to debate in a healthy manner occasionally. And this has been decidedly respectful.


Its a nice break from taking pictures of rulers ...

Ilya

Did somebody say rulers? :)

http://home.comcast.net/~trwilk3/Images/Ruler2.jpg

[ilya]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

(I think you are backfocusing by .5 mm judging from the calipers)

[John_T]

That was a loaded question, "which is right", though people will kill each other over such questions. Obviously neither can be "right" since they are just different views of the same hopper.

I've come across people on another forum, foaming at the mouth, literally ready to hunt the other down and kill'm, over what? Which was better, Mac or PC?

Enemies are not born, they are created. Perhaps the enmity has it's roots from a century ago, but is that some reason not to resolve it?

In the stillness of night, in the brilliance of day, with the vastness of sky, the infinite beauty in one women's eye, in one blade of grass, isn't it overwhelmingly curious that we are willing to surrender one minute of life to pettiness and greed?

[Ikinaa]

If you want to see such forum wars (in fact tens or more per day) you can always check on the german heise-forum (www.heise.de) (need to understand german of course... Sorry to not have an english example right now... 8) )
Sometimes it's too funny... Someone says 'Linux' and all Windows-lovers throw stones at him, another says 'Windows', all Linux-Lovers throw stones at him...
You could think that 12-year old kids are on this forum, it's simply ridiculous...
As you said John, if people start fighting over such things such as Operating systems, what will they do when they talk about serious things :roll:

[ilya]

Now that we got past that, can we talk about why tom-belmondo wants to free Martha?

I respect tom's opinions a great deal, so I just need to see what i'm missing ... :shock: :lol: :lol:

[Belmondo]

Now that we got past that, can we talk about why tom-belmondo wants to free Martha?

I respect tom's opinions a great deal, so I just need to see what i'm missing ... :shock: :lol: :lol:

Rich people shouldn't have to obey the same laws.

If they get caught, they shouldn't be punished. Money has to be able to buy something. Why not justice?

[Tom W]

Fry Martha!

;)

[ilya]

Yup, that makes sense.

I think the main point here is that we ought to be consistent.

We let OJ go.

So why are we picking on the purveyor of fine home furnishings while the football star goes free?

You're right its not right.

How about Ken Lay and the gang. I don't really like them, but our messages need to be consistent...

[Belmondo]

Free Ken Lay!

He makes good potato chips. (Sorry---a North American insider's joke.)

[Penguin_101_1]

Fry Martha!

;)

:lol:

[Tom W]

Yup, that makes sense.

I think the main point here is that we ought to be consistent.

We let OJ go.

So why are we picking on the purveyor of fine home furnishings while the football star goes free?

You're right its not right.

How about Ken Lay and the gang. I don't really like them, but our messages need to be consistent...

No, anything but OJ!! You can't blame me - I wasn't on the jury....

I wasn't on Martha's either, and the odds of me being involved in Ken Lay's trial are pretty slim, particularly since I had the displeasure of hearing him speak once. Suffice to say that Enron had a hand in the writing of what is passed off as "deregulation". Unfortunately, the laws of physics where they involve electricity were far from the minds of FERC when those new regulations were written.

[John_T]

I used to hang out with an oilman, also tax lawyer, from Mobile Alabama. Probably a billionaire by now.

One day over lunch I was going on and on and on over just having gotten ripped off for quite a hunk of money, and grumbling about ethics and honesty and crooks and con men and... on and on and on...

Suddenly he stuck his hand in the air and said "Stop!! Just stop!!"

"John", he said, "one of these days you are going to grow up, and realize there are only two types of people in the world!"

"The caught and the un-caught."



:lol: :roll: :lol:

[Ikinaa]

Now that we got past that, can we talk about why tom-belmondo wants to free Martha?

I respect tom's opinions a great deal, so I just need to see what i'm missing ... :shock: :lol: :lol:

Who is Martha??? :?:

[John_T]

Martha Stewart. Ms. Goodie too good who made a fortune selling how to live right and healthy, then got caught and sentenced for "corporate malfeasance" 'n what all.

I think Free Martha is Tom's joke, the hypocrasy of the rich and famous... but bettter ask him...

http://money.cnn.com/2004/07/16/news/newsmakers/martha_sentencing/?cnn=yes

http://www.savemartha.com/

http://www.marthatalks.com/

http://www.marthastewart.com/

[CyberDyneSystems]

So,. here is the trouble with posting the same topic in two places,

A: It is against the forum rules..

B: Much more importantly.. it makes it difficult to maintian a comprehensive discussion of the subject with it spread out across mutliple threads..

In the future... I recommend NOT posting a subject in multiple forums.. but if the desire is to get the attention of multiple forums.. post a LINK to the subject in other forums instead.. this way all discussion can remain in a single thread. :)

That said,. here's the link;

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=39142&start=0