Flash for the rebel?

[DocFrankenstein]

In in the best links section, there's a bit EOS article which describes how different flashes work.

It also says that ETTL technology doesn't work very well with digital for some reason. That some digital users actually have gone to fully manual flashes.

I am wondering why that is and should I decide to get a flash for my rebel, what should it be.

[timmyquest]

http://www.antiwall.com/May2004/images/2What%20about%20me.jpg

ETTL works great with my rebel and 550. ETTL 2 found on the MKII seems to be a huge improvement. But it is nice to have the manual controll for the rare ocasions that i do use it. This is why i just suggest getting the 550 to people. You cant see whats down the road but wouldnt you rather just spend $X's now rather then 10$x's later?

To answear your question though, no it is not needed ETTL works just fine.

[robertwgross]

You can get a lesser flash unit, but it might be missing some features, such as manual mode. With the 550EX, you can do whatever you need to do.

---Bob Gross---

[scottbergerphoto]

I find that most of the time ETTL and ETTL2 work very well. If you feel you need something else, before you go Manual, look at flashes that have an Auto mode with their own thyristor to control flash output. They connect to the camera via a PC cord. Quantum makes expensive but excellent flashes that have Manual, Auto, and ETTL modes. I have the Q Flash T2D. It was recently replaced by the T4D. The Quantum flashes use an external battery pack. That greatly reduces recylce time.
www.qtm.com
Regards,
Scott

[DocFrankenstein]

www.qtm.com
Regards,
Scott
Wow. Those things look way too expensive and complicated for me.

I am a confused photo enthusiast that have never used an external flash before. I've heard that there are some problems with rebel flash and metering, I don't know any specifics, but I'm slightly concerned.

What's the difference between 420EX and 550EX?

[robertwgross]

Keep in mind that Scott has a PhD in flash photography.

---Bob Gross---

[Jon]

. . . and we all know what PhD stands for ;{)#

[DocFrankenstein]

Keep in mind that Scott has a PhD in flash photography.
*sign of relief* :lol:

I'll go with ETTL then and not worry about anything else for a while.

[timmyquest]

Keep in mind that Scott has a PhD in flash photography.
*sign of relief* :lol:

I'll go with ETTL then and not worry about anything else for a while.

Your doing the right thing. Can you imagine how hard it would be to sell cameras that dont work with flashes ;-).

[robertwgross]

Some of us are so old that we had to shoot with flash powder.

I can truthfully admit to having done cave photography using a safety flare.

In comparison, ETTL flash is a snap.

---Bob Gross---

[scottbergerphoto]

www.qtm.com
Regards,
Scott

What's the difference between 420EX and 550EX?
The 420EX has a Guide number of 42 Meters and the 550EX is 55Meters.
Maximum Distance your flash can travel is Guide Number/f stop. So the 550 will travel further.
The 550EX has manual controls, can act as a wireless master for wireless ETTL,has an external connector for a high voltage battery pack and has a pull out diffuser. The 420EX does not.
The 420EX is a great starter flash.
Regards,
Scott

[habers]

doesnt the 550ex also have FEC? and the 420ex doesnt? I have been eyeing this flash

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=263432&is=REG

But I am so new to this all I dont even know what FEC does....LOL...Much reading for me and learning

[DocFrankenstein]

What about non Canon flashes? Are they any good? What are the issues with them?

I don't know how powerful my flash should be. Mostly I want it to be strong enough to bounce off the ceiling, but then my little bro had a poorly lit party and the ceiling was about 5 or 6 meters high. :? Would 420 be enough to bounce it?

I also have thoughts about setting up a studio of some kind. In that regard, I could buy a 420 for now and when the funds allow I will get a 550 and the "old one" will act as a slave?

Does this sound reasonable? Or should I get 2 550 ex if I am planning to start a studio?

Is there a good book about the subject?

[robertwgross]

Is there a good book about the subject?

Actually, the article that you referred to at the top of the thread is rather comprehensive concerning Canon flash operations.

---Bob Gross---

[Bruce Foreman]

What about non Canon flashes? Are they any good? What are the issues with them?

I recently bought the Rebel kit then found out my old EZ units would not work with it. I had the hot shoe extension cord that allowed use of a Canon dedicated unit on a bracket.

Funds for flash were limited so I bought a Sunpak PZ40X, a pretty compact unit with a bounce zoom head that works quite well with with the DRebel.


Or should I get 2 550 ex if I am planning to start a studio?

Wein makes a hot shoe adapter they call "Safe Sync". Has hot shoe on top and PC connection on front. It isolates the camera flash contacts from anything higher than 6 volts to keep from "frying" your internal circuits.

For studio use you will really want real studio flash. Something that will let you use larger reflectors or large white umbrellas and still let you use a working aperture of f8 or so.

Small flash heads don't quite "cut it" for quality studio work. No modeling lights so you can "see" your lighting, and small reflectors make for very hard potentially harsh lighting.

Hope this info helps

Bruce Foreman

[DocFrankenstein]

Wein makes a hot shoe adapter they call "Safe Sync". Has hot shoe on top and PC connection on front. It isolates the camera flash contacts from anything higher than 6 volts to keep from "frying" your internal circuits.
I am sorry, I have no idea what you are saying. I guess it's no use explaining to just as of now, I am gonna read up on it a bit later.

For studio use you will really want real studio flash. Something that will let you use larger reflectors or large white umbrellas and still let you use a working aperture of f8 or so.
How much do those cost?

Small flash heads don't quite "cut it" for quality studio work. No modeling lights so you can "see" your lighting, and small reflectors make for very hard potentially harsh lighting.
Can I get away with constant lighting only? Like if I put 4-5 umbrelas? Or is that unrealistic?

Thank you for the info. It seems like you really know what you're talking about.

[Bruce Foreman]

Wein makes a hot shoe adapter they call "Safe Sync". Has hot shoe on top and PC connection on front. It isolates the camera flash contacts from anything higher than 6 volts to keep from "frying" your internal circuits.
I am sorry, I have no idea what you are saying. I guess it's no use explaining to just as of now, I am gonna read up on it a bit later.

Sorry 'bout that. It's pretty simple, the Digital Rebel and some other digital cameras may be subject to severe damage to camera electronics if the flash trigger voltage is too high. Canon states a limit of 6 volts through the flash contacts internally to prevent this. Some older on camera flash (older Vivitar auto thyristor units come to mind) may have far more than 6 volts going through the camera as do some studio flash systems. The DRebel also has no PC flash contact for connecting to studio flash, the Wein Safe-Sync is a gadget that goes in the camera hot shoe and protects the camera from high trigger voltage from the flash. And it provides the PC connection (also protected) needed for studio flash.

Cost $54 to $64 depending where purchased. B&H has it, I found mine in a camera store.


For studio use you will really want real studio flash. Something that will let you use larger reflectors or large white umbrellas and still let you use a working aperture of f8 or so.

Doc: How much do those cost?[\quote]

I haven't kept up with that. I sold the set of Bowens Monolights I had been using for the last 15 years a couple of years ago. They ran about $350 each in 1988. Check in current Shutterbug, Popular Photography, and the digital photo mags. The Alien Bees units look interesting for somewhat low prices, and Novatron systems are quite reliable but should be used on sturdy stands and with large (52") white umbrellas to "tame" the raw character of the light output.


[quote]Small flash heads don't quite "cut it" for quality studio work. No modeling lights so you can "see" your lighting, and small reflectors make for very hard potentially harsh lighting.
Doc: Can I get away with constant lighting only? Like if I put 4-5 umbrelas? Or is that unrealistic?

To get the aperture down to around f8 (depth of field at f8 is just about right for a lot of studio work) would take enough continuous light to cause some extra heat in the room. It would tend to make your subjects uncomfortable and some percieve any bright lights to be "hot" whether they are or not.

But if you are doing video and already have some video lights you could give it a try. White balance and go for it.

Doc: Thank you for the info. It seems like you really know what you're talking about.

You're very welcome. I'm here to share as well as learn. I ran my own studio business for 10 years, then worked for the air force as a civilian staff photographer at a training base for another 13. Most of that time I managed the official studio department doing almost all of the studio photography. And I was in on the conversion from conventional film & wet process photography to all digital.

Hope I've been of some help.

Bruce Foreman

[rpmx]

Bruce, Since you are familiar with the Sunpaks, could you take a look at my post from a couple weeks ago, that did not get any response. I sent the Sunpak in today, but it is the second one that has gone south on me. Any ideas?

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=38641&highlight=sunpak+622

[Nolz]

Fom what i can gather from your posts i think a 420ex will be more than sufficient for the time being. By the time u master the in's and outs of flash photog with your 420 you can then move up to the 550 and should be able to use the 420 as a slave. this way you save a bit now, and WON'T be wasting money in teh long run.

myself am doing fine with a 420...and combined with my 300D's battery grip and a 50mm lens its alot heavier than i prefer.....i cant imagine how much a 550 would weigh on top of the gear i have already!

[robertwgross]

i cant imagine how much a 550 would weigh on top of the gear i have already!

The book says that the 550EX weighs 14.2 ounces.

---Bob Gross---

[vfilby]

I couldn't afford a 550EX and I got a good deal on a used Sigma 500DG Super. I have been happy with it, I have been told that it is more cheaply constructed than the 550ex. I think that the 550ex has custum functions to and an external battery pack connector, these are not found on the sigma.

I am learning about flash photography and the ins and outs. I have had some really good results so far but I have also had some odd ones. I have had images that were very overexposed. I think I remember reading here that ETTL is heavily biased towards the selected AF point(s). So I'll chock it up to the selected AF point being over a very dark part of the image.

I guess I'll have to go and learn more about how ETTL works to get the most out if it.

IF you are planning on buying a flash budget for a bunch of batteries or a good set of rechargeable NiMH's. For general use I would highly recommend the rechargeables.

Regards,

[dn7elson]

The 420EX is a great starter flash.

It also works well as a slave with the 550EX when you find you need the greater featues and power of the 550EX.

[OviV]

I too have the Sigma 500 Super DG. I am very happy with it. It has most of the same features as the 550ex. I know it is not as well constructed but at half the price that is to be expected. It performs very well in all modes. My biggest complaint is that the user's manual sucks.

Ovi

[DocFrankenstein]

Can I count on sigma to work with the next body? Is it the same with lenses, or it's guaranteed to work with 20D in a few years?

Seems like a good choice for what it costs.

[Jon]

No, you can't. What happens when Canon releases the non-backward-compatible X-TTL (eXaggerated TTL) flash, which uses a totally different mapping of the contacts? Nothing to stop them (think TTL, A-TTL). Also, there's a lot more back-and-forthing between camera and flash than there is between camera and lens, so reverse-engineering can be a little bit more tricky.

[vfilby]

No, you can't. What happens when Canon releases the non-backward-compatible X-TTL (eXaggerated TTL) flash, which uses a totally different mapping of the contacts? Nothing to stop them (think TTL, A-TTL).

If this is the case then that 550ex you bought for more money won't work either. Is ETTLII backwards compatible? I have read that the mkII takes EX speedlites.

Also, there's a lot more back-and-forthing between camera and flash than there is between camera and lens, so reverse-engineering can be a little bit more tricky.

I would have assumed the opposite because there are less electrical contacts on the flash then on the lens. Can you explain why the flash has a higher degree of coupling then the lens?

Regards,

[Jon]

Also, there's a lot more back-and-forthing between camera and flash than there is between camera and lens, so reverse-engineering can be a little bit more tricky.

I would have assumed the opposite because there are less electrical contacts on the flash then on the lens. Can you explain why the flash has a higher degree of coupling then the lens?

Regards,

The lens and camera are merely passing (generally one way) lens descriptive info (aperture, focal length, zoom setting, auto/manual focus) and control/exposure directions (shooting aperture, focus adjustment). The flash and camera are hand-shaking on the recharge state, pre-flash, exposure level, zoom settings, pre-focus, FEC, type of sync (second curtain/HS) over, as you noted, fewer contacts. The flash signals need to be more precise as well - if a diaphragm stays stopped down a tad longer, no problem. If a flash stays on a little longer, big problem.

Sure, a change in flash design may cause Canon's EX series to be incompatible. ISTR the Digital Rebel isn't backward compatible with earlier Canon specialty flashes.

[vfilby]

[quote="Jon"]The lens and camera are merely passing (generally one way) lens descriptive info (aperture, focal length, zoom setting, auto/manual focus) and control/exposure directions (shooting aperture, focus adjustment). The flash and camera are hand-shaking on the recharge state, pre-flash, exposure level, zoom settings, pre-focus, FEC, type of sync (second curtain/HS) over, as you noted, fewer contacts. The flash signals need to be more precise as well - if a diaphragm stays stopped down a tad longer, no problem. If a flash stays on a little longer, big problem.[/quite]

Thanks for the clarification.


Regards,

[Bruce Foreman]

Bruce: For studio use you will really want real studio flash. Something that will let you use larger reflectors or large white umbrellas and still let you use a working aperture of f8 or so.

Doc: How much do those cost?

I did a little research last nite. I may want to get a couple of new studio units myself (having sold my others to a new guy when I retired) and I did a Google search on "alien bees". I've seen these advertised in Shutterbug, they come is some vivid glitzy colors and I never paid much attention to them, the color thing seemed a bit much for an older guy like me.

I was much surprised to find they are an outgrowth of Paul C. Buff and his White Lightning monolight studio design. More compact, sturdier looking, and lower in cost than most.

B400 is $224
B800 is $279

And the biggest one I don't remember price on. A pair of B400's would get you by in a home studio or small studio setup, and for close up use on location. Umbrellas used should be silver.

The B800's have more power for using white umbrellas, soft boxes and that sort of thing.

Each unit comes with a sync cord (PC type and can be used with any under $20 hot shoe adapter-trigger voltage is 5 volts so these are safe with the DRebel), 7" reflector which would best be used with unit aimed into an umbrella but can be used direct, a 15' power cord, and has a built in switchable slave.

User reviews seem to give the units high marks, I found no complaints and one user even had photographs of the ones he ordered as he unpacked them. He even took the cover off one and showed what's inside.

I'm impressed enough that I'm considering ordering a pair myself (don't know if "mellow yellow", "green", "space black", or the new "sparkling white" is the color for me. I will pass on "Martian pink")

Bruce Foreman

[DocFrankenstein]

That seems strange. I'd imagine the studio lights are much more powerful than any 500 EX out there and yet they are cheaper...

Cool! Thanks for the info.

[Bruce Foreman]

Bruce, Since you are familiar with the Sunpaks, could you take a look at my post from a couple weeks ago, that did not get any response. I sent the Sunpak in today, but it is the second one that has gone south on me. Any ideas?

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=38641&highlight=sunpak+622

I checked the link and your original post.

For a couple of years we used SunPak 622's with Nikon dedicated modules at the base photo lab, mostly with Nikon F4's and they seem to work fairly well. I do seem to remember some troubles with the modules and cords going to the flash, you may be running into some of that.

If I remember right, the 622 has it's own auto flash sensor and if that is so you may be best off in manual mode on the camera, setting one aperture the sensor on the flash will work with, and a Wein Safe-Sync in the hotshoe with a standard PC cord tripping the 622.

Do be sure the SunPak repair folks understand this is the second SunPak that has failed to work for you. But be very courteous in doing this. They may give your unit extra attenion if they understand their reputation is on the line.

Metz and Quantum also make some heavier duty units that may give you enough power. With a manual mode on the camera you can always go with simpler but more powerful flash than the dedicated stuff.

Use the Wein Safe-Sync tho. Don't take chances with possible high trigger voltage.

Bruce Foreman

[Jon]

That seems strange. I'd imagine the studio lights are much more powerful than any 500 EX out there and yet they are cheaper...

Cool! Thanks for the info.
It's easier to juice up AC and then convert it to DC than to juice up DC - the voltage conversion is a fair chunk of the difference. Also, the AC strobes are generally manual (with, maybe, a variable output). Less complexity = less cost (usually).

[vfilby]

That seems strange. I'd imagine the studio lights are much more powerful than any 500 EX out there and yet they are cheaper...

Cool! Thanks for the info.
It's easier to juice up AC and then convert it to DC than to juice up DC - the voltage conversion is a fair chunk of the difference. Also, the AC strobes are generally manual (with, maybe, a variable output). Less complexity = less cost (usually).

I would think that studio lights would also be less portable then an on-camera flash.

Regards,

[Bruce Foreman]

I would think that studio lights would also be less portable then an on-camera flash.

Regards,

Generally yes. The power supply, capacitors, circuit boards, flashtube, modeling lamp assembly, and reflector size all contribute to a significantly larger size than on camera flash.

In addition to those factors reflector size for photographing people further increases the unit's size. Character of light is defined largely by the relative size of the light source to the subject.

Sunlight appears to be a pinpoint light source casting very hard sharply defined shadows, direct sun is extremely specular. But on an overcast day the entire overhead sky becomes an extremely broad, soft, non specular light source.

So for many of us photographing people in the studio, lights that accept larger reflectors work best. That's why you see so many umbrellas, soft boxes, and large reflectors with some kind of "cap" over the modelling light/flashtube assembly so nothing but indirect reflected light coming from the whole reflector surface is radiated out. Their light tends to be much gentler and any shadows are soft edged and nothing is "harsh" or hard looking.

Studio lights were never meant to be as portable as on camera flash, but some are amazingly compact and the Alien Bees units mentioned in previous messages fall in that category.

For "fixed" studio work I got real used to Photogenic Studiomasters, lights that averaged out at around $1000 per light in the 1980's. These each had an independent power pack (floor mounted in my commercial studio and wall mounted in the air force studio I worked in) and light head with flashtube mounted on a sturdy stand or suspended from the cieling on Master Rails.

But for location work (proms, formal military balls, in the home portraits, etc.) nothing beat a set of self contained monolights, where everything was all in the head. Quick setup, convenient to take down, and if I were equipping a fixed studio today I believe I would go the monolight type unit for that.

This was sure long, I hope it was informative for anyone wondering about studio units.

Bruce Foreman

Digital Rebel kit and some assorted museum pieces...