What shutter speed on Tv mode to capture ~120mph cars?

[Adam Hicks]

Hey guys, I'll be shooting freelance for a car magazine here in Texas who prints on very nice heavy stock, and uses excellent images. I've been invited to the infield of a Ferarri / Porsche gathering at a nice track here in North Texas to shoot the event for the magazine. The guys have seen some of my work, but this will be the first time standing 'on' the track (well raised behind a tire wall in the center of the course!) I'm excited about the opportunity, and will be shooting RAW throughout so I can fix exposure if needed.

The one thing I CAN'T easily fix is blurred images, so I want to make sure that non-panned images are crystal clear. Can someone who's done this tell me the minimum shutter time required for capturing a vehicle at a maximum of 120mph? Assume late morning full sun, tripod mounted, using an F2.8 28-75 or F2.8 100mm Canon lens. I'm going to be so close that the 100 might be too long. Maybe I'll go buy a 17-40L :)

Final question, assuming I want more DOF and use a smaller aperature, say ~F8, should I increase ISO to 400 to adjust for the shutter speed needs, or will I have enough light to use smaller aperatures and still get sharp images? I obviously don't want to use ISO800 if I don't have to... but I don't have an 85mm F1.2 :( (Should I buy a 50mm 1.8 for this? That's a cheap way to get a faster lens I suppose)

Thanks in advance for any replies!
Adam

[Imperitus]

I don't knwo if there are any stores in your area that offere it, but I know in Chicago you can rent high quality lenses from Helix... I've never done it but its somethign I've considered for those once in a blue moon events where you need a realy fast lens or some other particular that you might not generaly have warented buying... Ask around at the local camera stores...

[Adam Hicks]

I'm trying to determine if I'll need a faster lens than 2.8 in the bright Texas sun. If I was shooting a wedding from the balcony it would be one thing, but standing on the side of a race track in full sun should be another... ? But if there are folks on the board who have done this, and they see a big benefit in using a faster lens than 2.8, I'll go rent a couple!

Thanks,
Adam

[robertwgross]

Adam, if you think about it, there is no minimum shutter time to freeze the action. For any fast moving object like a race car, virtually any shutter speed you use will create blur. Now, if you get it fast enough, it won't show any really visible blur, but if you zoom in close enough, there will still be blur.

So, the answer is that you have to strive to get your shutter speed as close as possible to the limit of the camera, like 1/4000th.

Also, think about whether you intend to be panning or not. Do you want the race car blurred as it speeds through the frame, or do you want the race car frozen with the background blurred behind it? Either way can get good results, but you have to decide what you want to do.

---Bob Gross---

[Adam Hicks]

Since it's a car magazine, I really want the car as crisp as possible, whether the background is blurred or not will come second. I'm not going to be shooting perpendicular to the track, so panning will not be as straight forward. I'll probably be facing the front of the car more than the side as it goes by.

I do see your point that it will never be perfectly 'still' when it's moving at all, much less that fast!

Thanks,
Adam

[KennyG]

Adam, I'd be more concerned about the 300D's abilities to be honest. As you really need to use AI servo to get the best results, this is the problem area of this camera.

1/400 for head-on (by the way, 120mph is slow) and start at 1/250 for panning. Let the aperture take care of itself. Depending on light, ISO200 should be OK but you can push to ISO400 for a bit more DOF if you feel you need to. Ufortunately you can't use AI servo which would make focus tracking much easier.

Ovals are awful to shoot at and I am pleased we only have the one in the UK. You can't get really nice head-on shots from in-field. Been there, tried that.

With a 17-40 you will be shaking hands with the driver as he passes. The trick is to fill the frame as much as possible, not make it look like you are a mile away, which the effect you would get with the 17-40.

Forget the tripod, waste of time and restricts you too much. The only tripods I see at race circuits are used by TV cameras, the rest of us know better.

If you want to spend money on a lens, buy the 70-200L F4 as it is far better for the job than anything you currently have or have suggested.

Don't waste this opportunity.

[iwatkins]

In addition to Bob and Kenny's wise words, you may also not want to actually freeze the car in frame. Too fast a shot and the car will be fixed, so no turning wheels etc. i.e. will appear parked = Not a very good image IMHO.

Cheers

Ian

[defordphoto]

In bright sun you will not need anything faster than 2.8. I shoot motorsports and boats in full sun and clouds with the 100-400 and 400 F5.6 all the time with no issues.

Your biggest challenge is to try and get clean images without AI Servo on that Drebel. If you use sports mode you'll get AI Servo, but then the camera picks speeds that are too fast and it freezes everything. Makes the cars look like they are parked.

I shoot anywhere from about 1/125 to 1/1000. I usually range from 1/160 to 1/800. Of course the slower the speed the better your panning has to be and that's where AI Servo comes in. I know there are tricks to force the Drebel into AI Servo, so if you know those go for it.

At 120mph you can get some decent wheel blur and background streaking at 1/500-1/1000 and the car should be crystal clear.

Check out my website...

[defordphoto]

Since it's a car magazine, I really want the car as crisp as possible, whether the background is blurred or not will come second. I'm not going to be shooting perpendicular to the track, so panning will not be as straight forward. I'll probably be facing the front of the car more than the side as it goes by.

I do see your point that it will never be perfectly 'still' when it's moving at all, much less that fast!

Thanks,
Adam

Front-on shots are okay, but the speed is shown by panning. Those are the money shots. If you have time to practice, hit a local track before the assignment to play a bit, so you're not caught with your proverbial pants down.

[Adam Hicks]

Excellent information guys... as far as the post about oval track, I don't do oval track! This is a road course, and I'll be inside of the esses probably 10-15 feet from the track.

Since I don't have AI Servo, should I use the center focus point only or leave it will all focus points on?

As far as getting the wheels spinning, if that's the worst problem I have I'll be in good shape... I can do some seriously accurate select and radial blurring :shock:

Luckily this isn't a paid gig, but a chance to learn the ropes and try new things, as well as get a picture or two in a well circulated highly regarded auto mag. Once they start paying me for freelance work, I'll pick up the 100-400l and 70-200l IS I've been saving up for!

Thanks again for the advice guys, I'm going to print this thread and carry it along for reference just in case.

Adam

[Adam Hicks]

Oh and RFM... I've been trying to get to your site but it's down?

[defordphoto]

Oh and RFM... I've been trying to get to your site but it's down?

No. Not at all. In fact it's quite speedy today!

www.rfmsports.com

[defordphoto]

Luckily this isn't a paid gig, but a chance to learn the ropes and try new things, as well as get a picture or two in a well circulated highly regarded auto mag.

And the name of this mag is _____________?

[PacAce]

Another suggestion I might add on top of all the other very good suggestions given here is that, unless the race is running at a slow pace, you're going to be missing a lot of shots if you shoot a lot of continuous frames in RAW mode. I've tried shooting a race in RAW mode using a 10D and I eventually ended up switching to JPEG Large just so the camera could keep up with the pace of the race.

If you're worried about correcting exposures, I wouldn't be too concerned about it. Once you've taken a couple of shots and checked out the histogram, whatever metering compensation you come up with should be good for the rest of the day unless you move around a lot and the lighting and the background changes drastically. And even then, you can make adjustments with the first couple of frames and you'll be good to go again.

Good luck.

[Adam Hicks]

Well to answer a few questions, the magazine is called Texas Driver, and is a magazine focused on the affluent lifestyle. A good friend of mine is the art director who handles the layout and design of the magazine. Their photographer uses N!kon equipment, but has a tendancy to shoot at very high ISO levels for some reason, so the images are not as crisp as they should be IMO. Maybe he just has slower lenses.

As far as the race piece goes, this isn't a race per se, but a chance for owners of exotic cars to try their rides out on a track at the fastest speeds they feel comfortable with. There will be many cars on the track at a time, but passing is more friendly than would be in a race.

So the DRebel has no AI Servo functions, even with the hack eh? I don't want to mess with the 10D right now since it's bound to be replaced soon, and I want whatever THAT $1500 will buy me.

I'll post some pictures and let you guys know how it goes. If I think I'm getting good exposures and have the camera set up properly, I'll switch to JPG and get more shots in. My chances of capturing a good image double when I can take twice as many shots!

Thanks,
Adam

[AzzKicker]

Don't let the lack of AI servo keep you from shooting. If your going to be in one place, the cars usually stay the same distance from you and them. So just manual focus and at different points of the track, close that sucker up to f/5.6 and try that.

[Mthorpe_Davies]

Since it's a car magazine, I really want the car as crisp as possible, whether the background is blurred or not will come second. I'm not going to be shooting perpendicular to the track, so panning will not be as straight forward. I'll probably be facing the front of the car more than the side as it goes by.

I do see your point that it will never be perfectly 'still' when it's moving at all, much less that fast!

Thanks,
Adam

Are you able to move around the track, if all photos are taken from the same location it will all look a bit repatitive.

[vvizard]

Their photographer uses N!kon equipment, but has a tendancy to shoot at very high ISO levels for some reason, so the images are not as crisp as they should be IMO. Maybe he just has slower lenses.

Im bo no means whatsoever an expert in this field, but a newbie who've shot four dragraces, pluss some additional panning-training at the local freeway.. Anyway, here's what I've found out so far:

Fast/slow lens really doesn't mean anything at all when shooting races in sunlight. I've never shot at f/2.8 or below, and usually is stopping the lens down a few f-stops. I tend to try getting f/8 or higher. I also use a polarizer which takes off approx another two full f-stops.. So a fast lens is not anything you'll be needing unless it's _heavy_ overcast, or early/late.

Most shots I shoot around 1/500 ISO-400, f/8 (+ polarizer), AI-servo. With theese settings most cars are sharp, while background and wheels are blurred. Of course, there's plenty of room to break the picture by bad panning-techniques, but those can be practiced alongside your local freeway (and should). Unless you have a nearby race-track to practice on of course.

High ISO or fast f-stop.. On my Sigma 70-200 f/2.8, I rather prefer the extra noise of ISO-400, than the degraded optical result of shooting f/2.8. Do remember, most lenses are best when stopped down a few stops. f/8 seem to be a safe choice for many lenses.

Hope it helps. here's the pictures I took this weekend mostly with the setup above. Used ISO-800 to bump me into the 1/1000 speed on the few pictures of the TopFuel cars. That was a little high I found out, so I think I'll try ISO-400 & 1/500 for them as well the next time..

http://127001.org/albums/2004_gardermoen_drag_challenge/images.html

EDIT:

Just opened the newspaper today, and two of my shots got printed :)

http://127001.org/albums/2004_gardermoen_drag_challenge/crw_5851.tiff.jpg
http://127001.org/albums/2004_gardermoen_drag_challenge/img_5940.tiff.jpg

My first paid shots ever :) Feels quite good :)