Long Term storage solution required - wary of DVD

[rudrasen]

HI Folks,
I am sure all of us are facing this issue. 4-5 years ago most cheap portable magnetic media was deemed unreliable & burning Cd was the way to go. CD-R are dependable & economical. But now the market filled with junky unbranded blank CD media. Besides they can't backup my 1 Gb card. Now people are saying DVD are they way to go:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=35470&start=0&postdays=0&postorde r=asc&highlight=dvd

However there are junky blank media in this as well.

http://www.digitalfaq.com/media/dvdmedia.htm

We all backup you images & need them in the future;
All of you are hoping the in the year 2015 when you stick that CD/DVD you burnt in 2004 in your computer , it will read and you can view/print you photos! But I am not too sure. My questions are:

Q0. What brand of CD-R are reliable ? Are there any better than DVD blanks ?

Q 1. Are all you DSLR folks using DVDs to backup you photos?
Are you confident enought to delete the images off your harddisk ?
(If you have 40Gb HDD & a 1 Gb CF card, you can fill up entire HDD within 40 photo shoots.)

Q 2. Is making multiple backups on DVDs or CDs a good strategy?
I think no HDD or zip disk can last beyond 6-7 years. And No I am not going to spend $1200 on some HDD or custom storage solutions.
Any other solutions/suggestions here ?

Q 3. I am currently using the Prodisc 4.7GB 8X DVD+R. But I am thinking I should switch to Taiyo Yuden 8x DVD+R Media . I do not plan to refresh my backups every 3-4 years.

Of course all my backup DVD will be stored inside a cool dry drawer & will be handled rarely. call me paraniod, but I need my images 20-30 years from now.

[evilenglishman]

buy a seagate 120gb drive, plug it into an available ide port, copy your files over and remove it. store it safely for 5 years then buy a new drive and copy all the files from the old one to the new one and store that one away for 5 years. Hell, buy 2 and store one in a bank vault!

when you are talking about such high storage demands its probably cheaper (and faster) to buy a 120gb hard drive than dvd's - which are easier to damage.

I burnt a dvd-r when i first got my camera and its unreadable now. I've only taken it out of its sleeve 3 times!!!

[photoguynorth]

Everyone has different advice here, depending on their experience, but my advice is to use quality CD-Rs or DVD-Rs. The key word is quality - don't use cheap ones. Be careful where you buy them too - cheap copies of brand name are a big problem, so only buy from reputable stores.
I burn 3 CDs with pictures on them, store one off site and keep 2 myself. I have dozens of CDs - some years old now, and have never had a good name-brand CD fail. I have used cheap media for umimportant stuff, and had many failures there. I have also had several hard drives fail over the last 5 or 6 years - they can and do fail, so I would not trust a drive as my only backup - although it can be fine if used in conjunction with other types of backup.

[Stapler123]

I use a hard disk (one I have just for pictures), but I still back up on cdr just in case. I have had 3 hard drives from 2 major manufacturers that have had catastrophic failures in 6 months of storage use. The first time it was a pretty big blow to me, ever since I've backed up with cd-r too. Redundacy seems to be the key.

[boBquincy]

I backup all images to CD-R and to an external hard drive, which usually stays in a fire resistant safe. Most of the images I may work on are also on my internal hard drive.
Few if any of the images are actually worth anything to anyone but me, but they are worth enough to me to take the trouble to preserve them.

I agree, the key is redundancy since we never know when a trusted manufacturer will get some low grade CD-Rs or ship a defective hard drive. The idea about copying the files to a new drive every 5 years also sounds good. The cost per image is very low!


boB

[defordphoto]

What software do you all use for backing up you HD? I'm looking for a simple backup program that just copies files to disk (CD/DVD whatever) and spans files across the disks. I don't want some weird encrypted, compressed backup file, just the files themselves spanned.

[robertwgross]

I do all of my long-term image storage on multiple storage types. For example, I'll get one copy out on DVD+RW, another on CD, and one or two on hard disks. There is no way that the different types are all going to hell.

---Bob Gross---

[CyberDyneSystems]

I'm with Bob.. I have active copies on three hard drives.. and when I get around to it I back up to DVD-R or CD-R...

Start with replacing your single hard drive with a mirrored raid.. then get an external HAD with a simple back up program ("Mirror Folder" is real time software Raid and archival backup solution in one program. A great option)

Then get an 8X or a new 12X DVD recorder.

[cmM]

I'm with Bob.. I have active copies on three hard drives.. and when I get around to it I back up to DVD-R or CD-R...

Start with replacing your single hard drive with a mirrored raid.. then get an external HAD with a simple back up program ("Mirror Folder" is real time software Raid and archival backup solution in one program. A great option)

Then get an 8X or a new 12X DVD recorder.
Listen to this guy... I think he has become one with his mainframe in providence :P .... I was thinking more about a server in my basement with an external SCSI array (couple TB of storage) :D

No seriously... I bought a DL DVD burner , made a partition on my HDD equal to the capacity of a DL DVD, and I make 2 backup copies whenever I run out of space on my "photo" partition, then format. So far so good.

[Persian-Rice]

I read the good quality dvd+ media are pretty darn reliable and last for a pretty long time. I have an HP one sitting here I got locally for dirt cheap today. If you want to go with anything else, just get a giant hard drive and use it as a file storage item, I have about 220 gbs worth........

So far, the 220 is quite used up, I hope that the DVD will help. Problem is, when you have so much space, you dont feel the need to delete anything........

[Chazs]

Boy, it sure sounds like we all have digital-storage-paranoia. I think someone needs to invent a printer that prints a digitial image directly to a film negative with a 200-year guarantee (maybe already have, and I haven't seen it yet). ANYTHING stored digitally is bound to fail sooner or later. I'm just hoping Canon, or other makers, can create archival inks that will last a hundred-plus years, that REALLY work. (My 30-year ink prints are faded atrociously on the fridge in 1 year.) Eventually, though, physical storage will be better than digital storage, in the long run.

[Jon]

Immediate backup to laptop hard drive and CD-ROM, then backups to NAS drive and 2 other computers' hard drves, as well as DVD+R. There's no such thing as too many copies.

[photoguynorth]

Boy, it sure sounds like we all have digital-storage-paranoia. I think someone needs to invent a printer that prints a digitial image directly to a film negative with a 200-year guarantee (maybe already have, and I haven't seen it yet). ANYTHING stored digitally is bound to fail sooner or later. I'm just hoping Canon, or other makers, can create archival inks that will last a hundred-plus years, that REALLY work. (My 30-year ink prints are faded atrociously on the fridge in 1 year.) Eventually, though, physical storage will be better than digital storage, in the long run.

The problem with physical copies is that you can't make new copies without quality loss (unless you still have the digital source, but then why would you bother if you have that). One of the reasons I like digital is that I can make copies for whoever I want, without affecting quality. I think careful storage on quality media will be fine, at least until some other archival digital storage is available, then I can just copy everything to that.

[cmM]

give it a little bit of time, guys...
SRI has been investigating the physics and technology needed to develop high-performance coherent time-domain optical memory (CTDOM) and optical processing systems based on the concept called the stimulated echo. Very high storage densities are possible, 1000 gigabits per cubic centimeter or more. Single-channel data rates could be more than 10 gigabits per second. Even faster data throughput could be accomplished by massively-parallel storage, retrieval, and in-memory processing of holographic images.

It's been in research for quite a few years. Give it a couple years, and we'll have 1 TB removable drives as keychains ;).

[robertwgross]

I have active copies on three hard drives..

What do you mean by "active"?

---Bob Gross---

[CyberDyneSystems]

I actually just ran out of HD storage on my PC... (or very close to it) I brought home 18 GB of images on a pair of X-drives (poor man's RAID while on the road.. wasn't ready to truast the entire journalstic encounter to a single HD)

The 18 GBs fit just fine on the PCs existing RAID... but after that I had 7 GBs left... do the math... even I keep half the 18.. that's 9GB that will need to be blown to to 4X that size in conversion.

So yesterday I was in Staples getting 4X6" photopaper for work.. when I saw 160GB HDs for $99.00 on sale!!!

As allways.. I bought a matched pair. They will give me another 160 of MIRRORED data storage on the PC when attached to the RAID controller.

I need to Archive this stuff to DVD soon to.. but I'm waiting for my new 12X burner to show up.

[CyberDyneSystems]

I have active copies on three hard drives..

What do you mean by "active"?

---Bob Gross---

Active means available on the PC without having to dig through tapes, disks, CDs etc.. or even plugging an external HD.

Installed and running Hard drives in other words. A more common term would be "online" storage.

In this case the third copy which is on the third HD that uses a software RAID is delayed by 4 days.

In other words if I accidently delete or alter a master file on the main system RAID array.. the file will still be available on the third drive for another four days before it to gets the deletion. The Third drive "mirrors" the real time Raid array every four days.

[Boudreaux]

What software do you all use for backing up you HD? I'm looking for a simple backup program that just copies files to disk (CD/DVD whatever) and spans files across the disks. I don't want some weird encrypted, compressed backup file, just the files themselves spanned.

Jim,

I use Second Copy 2000 from Centered Systems (not associated with company, just user of it). The features you are asking for are in this program. It will do all that you request and more. You can download a trial copy and then buy for $30 if you like. http://www.centered.com/

I use a combination of external drive / DVD backup solution. I have the backup software set to scan my hard drive(s) each night and do an incremental backup of any new or edited picture files to my external drives. Then I copy to DVD and keep these offsite (Safe Deposit box). This solution has saved me on occasion that I have had a hard drive fail.

I use this software for all of my PC backup needs. You basically set up backup profiles (1 for pics, 1 for data, etc.) and then can set them to run when you are not using PC. It is is VERY easy to setup/use. Wizard like setup with some advanced tweaking if desired. I have been using this for 3+ years and have not had any problems.

[robertwgross]

You know, it strikes me as odd how far we've come.

Now I deal with DVD data disks holding 4GB of image files, and 200GB hard disks.

On my first home computer (c. 1987), there was a huge 10MB hard disk. It would hold only about one of my current RAW image files.

Wow!

---Bob Gross---

[CyberDyneSystems]

You know, it strikes me as odd how far we've come.

Now I deal with DVD data disks holding 4GB of image files, and 200GB hard disks.

On my first home computer (c. 1987), there was a huge 10MB hard disk. It would hold only about one of my current RAW image files.

Wow!

---Bob Gross---

Boy you aren't kidding!

I am now typing from what was once Fjitsus "Falgship" notebook PC.. (A 690TX with a 266 "tillamook" Pentium)

This once "best of the best" notebook boasts a "whopping" 4 gigabyte HD that I thought I'd never be able to fill up.

My MkII currently has a 4 gigabyte microdrive as well...... :shock: :? and obviously the MkII's buffer memory is about 5 times the capacity of the Fujitsu's UPGRADED memory of 96MB RAM

[Cadwell]

Prices have come down a bit too... I remember paying £25,000 for a 512MB SCSI hard disc a few years back... that's £50,000 a gigabyte as compared to todays £0.35.

[robertwgross]

I am now typing from what was once Fjitsus "Falgship" notebook PC.

We can tell.

It used to be Fujitsu and its Flagship.

---Bob Gross---

[CyberDyneSystems]

:roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Okay.. so it should have read

"I am now TRYING to type....."

[Belmondo]

It used to be Fujitsu and its Flagship.

---Bob Gross---

Times change, Bob.

That falls under 'Moderator's License,' a concept with which I am very familiar and of which I take full advantage.

Harumph.

[JZaun]

One thing is certian... don't trust just one back up!!!!!!!! You all know Murphey!!! I have dual 40 gig HD's with DVD R/W back up of them!!

My first PC was a NCR DM4, :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
It only had "1" 5 1/2 " floppy! No hard drive. The opptional HD was 500MB:D Lets see that had to have been 19?? :oops: I can't remember..

[CyberDyneSystems]

Well.. I just started the "Xcopy" to get all my Digital photos onot the new 152GB Mirrored RAID array...

Let's see 70 plus gigs of Images... that should take a looooong time to copy.

Then I'll probably wait a few weeks at least before deleting the source files... maybe not untill after a full DVD back up :wink:

[defordphoto]

What software do you all use for backing up you HD? I'm looking for a simple backup program that just copies files to disk (CD/DVD whatever) and spans files across the disks. I don't want some weird encrypted, compressed backup file, just the files themselves spanned.

Jim,

I use Second Copy 2000 from Centered Systems... (

Thank you for the info!

[defordphoto]

Companies Approve New High-Capacity Disc Format
1 hour, 57 minutes ago

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A group of consumer electronics makers said on Wednesday they approved the format for a new generation of discs that can store five times the data of DVDs at the same cost -- enough to put a full season of "The Sopranos" on one disc.

The group, called the Blu-ray Disc Founders, said it has approved version 1.0 of the BD-ROM format and made it available to disc manufacturers.

Blu-ray, so named because the standard requires a blue laser instead of the red one used for DVD reading and recording, is designed to store 25 gigabytes of data on a single-layered disc.

It is aimed at recording and storing high-definition video which studios, video renters and retailers see as a major growth opportunity for the home video market in coming years.

The founders' group has 13 members comprising the leading names in consumer electronics and computing, among them Sony Corp, Philips, Thomson, Dell Inc. and Hewlett-Packard Co.

The Blu-ray format those companies are backing is expected to compete with another blue-laser standard, HD DVD, backed by NEC Corp. and Toshiba Corp.

Players, computer drives and software compatible with the Blu-ray format are expected on the market by the end of 2005. Microsoft Corp. said last month the next generation of its Windows operating system would be compatible with HD DVD. At the time, it did not commit one way or another on Blu-ray.

[Belmondo]

Oh great. A new standard. Something else to buy. :cry: :? :wink:

[robertwgross]

Active means available on the PC without having to dig through tapes, disks, CDs etc.. or even plugging an external HD.


I know what you mean. I have about a zillion Zip disks here with oodles and gobs of image files on them, but I no longer have any working Zip drive to read them on. <sigh>

---Bob Gross---

[Jon]

One thing is certian... don't trust just one back up!!!!!!!! You all know Murphey!!! I have dual 40 gig HD's with DVD R/W back up of them!!

My first PC was a NCR DM4, :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
It only had "1" 5 1/2 " floppy! No hard drive. The opptional HD was 500MB:D Lets see that had to have been 19?? :oops: I can't remember..

Oh - high capacity storage then!

My first computer had dual 90 KB floppies, with no available HDD at all, but 64 K RAM. Next one had 360K FDD, 10 MB HDD and 256 K (later upgraded to 1280 K) RAM

[defordphoto]

Oh great. A new standard. Something else to buy. :cry: :? :wink:

Don't worry. There is yet another standard coming in the next few years giving the capacity to hold about 200 full length motion pictures on one disk. :shock:

[Belmondo]

Active means available on the PC without having to dig through tapes, disks, CDs etc.. or even plugging an external HD.


I know what you mean. I have about a zillion Zip disks here with oodles and gobs of image files on them, but I no longer have any working Zip drive to read them on. <sigh>

---Bob Gross---

I have a similar situation, although not with photos. I have a box full of 44mb Syquest cartridges and no syquest drive. They are old business records, and the irony is not lost on me that their entire contents could be stored on a couple CD-ROMs.

[PhotosGuy]

On my first home computer (c. 1987), there was a huge 10MB hard disk. It would hold only about one of my current RAW image files.

Haha, I added a 200MB HD to my Amiga 2000 in 1991. Cost was $200 used, so $1 per MB! It came with sound & video as part of the OS. Too bad that WinDoze won that war!