420 EX vs. 550 EX for indoor ceiling bouncing?

[DocFrankenstein]

I don't know which one to get. I could stretch and get 550 EX, but I don't know if I really need that much power.

I don't know anything about flashes. Never worked with one.

What do you recommend. I want to get a good piece of equipment, but I don't want to get anything more than I actually need.

[robertwgross]

What do you recommend.

Don't buy any external flash if you don't need one. We don't know what subjects you intend to shoot in dim light.

Although the 550EX is a bit brighter than the 420EX, by guide numbers of 55 versus 42, that is not a tremendous difference. The decision of one over the other is probably made over the feature differences. For example, if you always intend to use an external flash on-camera, then you don't need any master/slave wireless capability.

---Bob Gross---

[DocFrankenstein]

I want to be able to shoot at locations such as restaurants, banquet halls, party rooms... I'd want it to provide enough light so that I get decent shutter speeds at ISO 100-200...

So it's primary use is going to be on camera, or at least close enough to the camera mounted on a bracket...

I also harbour some hope of making a small studio, and if the flash can be used there it's a bonus. But a studio is gonna be much later and I'd hopefully be able to get a studio flash for that.

I don't know if that conveys my shooting goals accurately enough. What other uses does a flash have?

[robertwgross]

If you are shooting small groups of people within 15 feet, then you can get by without any massive flash power, so any external flash with any decent guide number should work. However, as you start trying to fill up a larger room with light, the bigger guide numbers will slowly work their way into your consciousness. On one recent outdoor trip, I had to set up to shoot black bears at a distance of about 60 feet, and that takes some serious firepower.

If you intend to bounce off a low ceiling, then tilt/rotate features of the flash head become important. If you try to bounce off a high ceiling, then forget it.

Canon wireless master/slave stuff isn't used too much unless you get into multiple flash situations. For example, when we shoot a wedding group that is large, I set up one flash to the right, and one flash to the left, and then fire a wireless master. That's handy, but not the sort of thing that everybody wants to do.

---Bob Gross---

[DocFrankenstein]

How many times is 550 ex more powerful than the 420?

I know it's a supposed to be a cubic relationship, but I don't know how to work it.

[Loekito]

So far what I know (correct me if i'm wrong), the 550EX have a FEC (Flash Exposure Compensation) feature in which 300D lack of it, so it will compliment the 300D nicely.

regards,

Loekito

[timmyquest]

So far what I know (correct me if i'm wrong), the 550EX have a FEC (Flash Exposure Compensation) feature in which 300D lack of it, so it will compliment the 300D nicely.

regards,

Loekito

I use it all the time ;-)

[robertwgross]

How many times is 550 ex more powerful than the 420?

I know it's a supposed to be a cubic relationship, but I don't know how to work it.

The Guide Number for the 550EX is 55. The Guide Number for the 420EX is 42. The Guide Number is expressed in meters of distance at ISO 100. If you take the Guide Number and divide by the f-stop number, that tells you the effective range in meter.

For example, if you have a GN of 55, and you can shoot at f/5, then that dictates a range of 11 meters. If you can shoot at f/2, then that dictates a range of about 25 meters. However, ISO 200 goes farther, and ISO 400 farther still. You can get very long ranges from ISO 800 with a very fast f/1.4 lens. If you are bouncing light, then the range is the distance from the flash to the ceiling and back down to the subject, but with some error since ceilings aren't totally reflective.

If you use High-Speed Sync, the range is less.

---Bob Gross---

[scottbergerphoto]

Many of these questions were answered in your previous thread:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=39631 :shock:
Scott

[DaveG]

I want to be able to shoot at locations such as restaurants, banquet halls, party rooms... I'd want it to provide enough light so that I get decent shutter speeds at ISO 100-200...

So it's primary use is going to be on camera, or at least close enough to the camera mounted on a bracket...

I also harbour some hope of making a small studio, and if the flash can be used there it's a bonus. But a studio is gonna be much later and I'd hopefully be able to get a studio flash for that.

I don't know if that conveys my shooting goals accurately enough. What other uses does a flash have?

The 550 is a much more powerful flash and offers you better control. You can for example go to manual settings and get from full to 1:128 power. You can also use the +/- control to modify the E-TTL exposure, and from my experience you are going to have to do this.

The single biggest advantage of getting the 550 is that it's the first step in the road to multi flash, on location, wirelesss TTL flash shooting. You start with a 550 and then add another 550 or more likely a 420, as a slave. The idea behind this is to actually take some good images, not just get enough light on the subject to create a correct exposure.

I use this kind of set up all the time. The 550 in a bracket at the camera position and a 420 on a light stand. The 420 is the main light and the 550 is the fill. I can adjust lighting ratios from the shooting position without having to walk over to the 420.

A typical shoot might be someone speaking at a podium. If I use a single hotshoe mounted flash I'll get a good exposure but it will be competely directional flat lighting. If the subject is speaking and I'm lower than her, then there's a really good chance that I'll get a great shot of her fillings on her back teeth! And that's no joke.

With the Canon Wireless system the main light is coming from a 45 degree angle (or wherever) and I can adjust the amount of light in the shadow - and that in a nutshell is what lighting ratio is all about.

If you have absolutely no interest in doing this I'd suggest that you something like a Vivitar 283/5, and save a lot of money. Their automatic feature will get you close to the right exposure and with the review you should be bang on.

But using this wireless TTL will separate your portfolio from the herd's and that's been great for me.

[blacktape]

1. It's half the price of a 550EX
2. Today, digital cameras have clean images even at ISO800. Shooting at ISO400 (as clean as ISO100 film) or ISO800, you'll almost have no need for high GNs.
3. It's much lighter, and have all the features of the 550.

Buy the 550 only if:
1. You use multiple flash setup. (only the 550 can be the master)
2. You're using a 300D, in which there is no in-camera flash exposure compensation control.

[Jon]

Since your goal is to bounce it, I'd say the 550EX. You're likely to run into all kinds of ceilings, with varying reflective capabilities, and the extra output will be a major help. Also, when working in the direct mode, a stronger flash will exhibit less fall-off at the same working distance and will recycle faster in full auto at the same working distance.

[DocFrankenstein]

1. You use multiple flash setup. (only the 550 can be the master)
2. You're using a 300D, in which there is no in-camera flash exposure compensation control.

Maan. I was hoping my first flash could be the 420 and upgrading to 550 later to get the multi flash setup. :?

Oh well... I love oatmeals :wink:

[DocFrankenstein]

If you have absolutely no interest in doing this I'd suggest that you something like a Vivitar 283/5, and save a lot of money.
Does it have that FEC I know nothing about, which allows me to use it the rebel?

It also seems to be much more powerful than the 550 and seems to be fully manual. Is it? Will it work with the rebel automatically?

[samdring]

to set up to shoot black bears at a distance of about 60 feet, and that takes some serious firepower.
---Bob Gross---

...and nerve which neither Canon provides!

[slin100]

blacktape wrote about the 420EX:

3. It's much lighter, and have all the features of the 550.

That's probably not what you meant, since there's a boatload of extra features on the 550 as previously mentioned by others.

Anyway, wrt to the power differences, the 550EX is about 2/3 stop more powerful. So, the extra power alone should not be sole reason to get a 550EX over a 420EX.

As I see it, if you have a 300D and you aren't brave enough to install the hacked firmware to access FEC, then the 550EX is your only choice (or the Sigma EF500 DG or Metz). FEC is a must with ETTL in dim light. In my experience, I usually need to dial in +2/3 FEC because otherwise my images come out underexposed. Yes, I know about the spot-metering nature of ETTL. I use C-Fn 4-1 to remap focusing to the * button, so this decouples ETTL from using the active focus point, and I still get underexposed shots.

[robertwgross]

3. It's much lighter, and have all the features of the 550.


REALLY?

On a 420EX, where can you plug in an external battery pack?

---Bob Gross---

[slin100]

If you have absolutely no interest in doing this I'd suggest that you something like a Vivitar 283/5, and save a lot of money.
Does it have that FEC I know nothing about, which allows me to use it the rebel?
No, but you would do FEC differently with this flash. More below.

It also seems to be much more powerful than the 550 and seems to be fully manual. Is it? Will it work with the rebel automatically?
It's less powerful than a 550EX but more than a 420EX. It's not only manual, although it does have 3 manual power settings (vs 8 on the 550EX). It's a non-dedicated, self-regulating, auto-thyristor flash.

Non-dedicated means that it doesn't communicate in any special way with the camera; it's simply triggered by the main contact on the hotshoe and fires.

Self-regulating means that it determines the flash output without any input from the camera (no ETTL communication).

Auto-thyristor means that the flash output is regulated by a light sensor on the flash instead of regulated by TTL (though the lens) metering.

These types of flashes generally have a few auto-aperture settings. The Vivitar 285 has four, f/2, f/4, f/8, and f/16. You set the camera's aperture to match the aperture setting you select on the flash. Then you simply shoot away and, in theory, you get correctly exposed main subject. If the exposure is not correct, you can compensate the flash exposure by adjusting the camera's aperture. This is a markedly different way of doing FEC than with the 550EX, where you adjust flash output by means of the on-flash or on-camera FEC (10D or hacked 300D) controls. The disadvantage of adjusting the camera aperture is that you also affect ambient exposure. You can compensate by adjusting shutter speed simultaneously, but it should be plain that this is a tad more cumbersome.

Some people swear by auto-thyristor flashes, claiming that they are far more consistent than ETTL. I'm slightly inclined to agree although I still use my 550EX far more than my off-brand, auto-thyristor flash. Go figure.

[robertwgross]

to set up to shoot black bears at a distance of about 60 feet, and that takes some serious firepower.
---Bob Gross---

...and nerve which neither Canon provides!

Naaah. Yosemite black bears are like pussy cats. ... Very large 400-pound pussy cats with claws that can rip apart any car door.

At six feet, that would take nerve. At sixty feet... no problem.

Once I was shooting a photo of a black bear cub about six feet above me in a tree. Then I heard the momma bear about 100 feet behind me! Yikes!

At least I got the shot before the momma bear got me.

---Bob Gross---

[DocFrankenstein]

slin100 - so it looks like the vivitar needs much more adjustments on camera than the 550...

This would mean that it may take 2 or 3 attempts to get the correct exposure? while the people I am shooting are getting annoyed by the flash?

I want everything to be automatic and perfectly exposed :D :lol: 8)

Is the FEC any good with the hacked software on 300D? I have no problem hacking it, it's just I keep delaying getting a card reader cause I don't really need it. And I don't know how to install it without the cardreader....

This flash thing is way more complicated that I expected it to be.

[DaveG]

slin100 - so it looks like the vivitar needs much more adjustments on camera than the 550...

This would mean that it may take 2 or 3 attempts to get the correct exposure? while the people I am shooting are getting annoyed by the flash?

I want everything to be automatic and perfectly exposed :D :lol: 8)

Is the FEC any good with the hacked software on 300D? I have no problem hacking it, it's just I keep delaying getting a card reader cause I don't really need it. And I don't know how to install it without the cardreader....

This flash thing is way more complicated that I expected it to be.

Well you won't get the correct exposure first time with the E-TTL either. It's as all over the place as the Vivitar is without the Vivitar's very convenient fix of opening or closing the aperture to adjust.

The other thing is that the Vivitar is likely to be ALWAYS 2/3's of a stop hot or cold or whatever. It might be wrong, but it will be consistently wrong, and you can get used to this very quickly. If it is (say) consistently 2/3's of a stop hot, you increase the ISO by 2/3 of a stop and you should be in business.

With E-TTL every exposure is an opinion, and the only way you can fix this is with the +/- control on the 550. You'd have to use the camera's +/-if you have a 420 and if you think that the Vivitar takes some time, try that!

[Ballen Photo]

slin100 - so it looks like the vivitar needs much more adjustments on camera than the 550...


I would be VERY careful if selecting a Vivitar 283/5(or any non dedicated flash), as some have been found to exceed safe voltage levels for todays digital cameras. I've heard reports of expensive cameras getting their electronics fried from using these. Having said that, I have a 283 and it is a good flash, but I wont tempt fate by using it on my 10D or G-5. :shock: It DOES work well with a peanut slave though.
Since Mr Frankenstein mentioned the possibillty of using the flash in a small studio, I recommend the 550 hands down for its versatility. :D
.......Bruce

[slin100]

slin100 - so it looks like the vivitar needs much more adjustments on camera than the 550...
Not really. On a 10D, it would probably take the same amount of time to adjust FEC (push FEC button then turn thumb wheel) as it would to bump both the shutter speed and aperture.


This would mean that it may take 2 or 3 attempts to get the correct exposure? while the people I am shooting are getting annoyed by the flash?

I want everything to be automatic and perfectly exposed :D :lol: 8)

If everything were 18% grey, then life would be perfect. Alas, it isn't and auto-thyristor flash exposures will be subject to similar if not the same types of exposure mistakes as ETTL. For example, a subject standing in front of a white wall will likely end up underexposed by an auto-thyristor flash. With experience, you'll anticipate this shot and compensate.

Is the FEC any good with the hacked software on 300D? I have no problem hacking it, it's just I keep delaying getting a card reader cause I don't really need it. And I don't know how to install it without the cardreader....
I don't have a 300D, but judging from what I've read on this forum, yes, it works.


This flash thing is way more complicated that I expected it to be.
IMO, it's one of the most difficult aspects of photography.