Too Much Camera

[drisley]

Last month, a friend asked me to do some photoshop work to some pictures he took with his digital camera.
The pictures looked like the typical, ugly, flashed, point and shoot camera type pictures, probably not much better than a disposable film camera.
I asked him what camera he had, he said, oh, it's a canon something or other, lemme check, oh it's a G3!
Well, I asked him a few questions about settings, and he had no idea what I was talking about. He said "I just set to auto, and point and click".
Yikes!

Yesterday at the zoo, I ran into a guy also with a G3, and I mentioned that it's really a great camera. He said "I guess, but, er, how do you turn the flash off?" :shock:
So I tried describing to him, but he had no idea either what I was talking about, and said that he just leaves in in auto and presses the button.

2 months ago, I ran into a nice lady at a diving meet. She had an A80, and again, had no clue how to use it.

Wouldn't you say that these are prime examples of sale people selling customers cameras that they really dont need?

In addition, they are definatley examples of people who don't "RTFM", but that is a whole nother story. :lol:

[taskerc]

Digital mania is everywhere - a friend in Paris had a Nikon 5700 with two conversion lenses (wide and tele), abttery grip - the whole lot. Same thing never moved it from AUTO - and here is the kicker - when asked, he replied that he used his EOS 30 for the real pictures ..... Mystifies me as this person is rather intelligent, btu admitedly, a real gadget freak.

[Belmondo]

We stopped at Colonial Williamsburg a couple months ago, and while riding the bus around the site, I happened to notice the man sitting across the aisle from me had a Pro 1 on a monopod. Needless to say, I figured 'Fellow Photographer,' and I started up a conversation with him. I had my Mk II, and he said he'd heard of it, so we sat there admiring each other's cameras for a while when I noticed his was set to shoot full auto. I asked him if that was what he normally used, and he admitted he had no clue what the other settings were for.

He was well pleased with the camera and seemed quite content to demur to the little brain in the camera for all the creative elements of photography. He was certainly oversold, but apparently could afford it.

BTW, his opinion of my Mk II was that it was too big, too heavy, and only had the same resolution as his Pro 1. “Good point,” I told him.
:? :cry: :lol:

[Jon]

Consider the G3 - how much competition did it hhave when it came out in the 4 MP category? So maybe it has features the guy isn't going to use, but if he thought he needed that resolution (whether his work may be up to our standards or not) he may not have had a lot of choice in available equipment. At least at his local big-box store.

And the lady you met at the diving meet? Could she have gotten the A80 for the waterproof housing option?

People may not be getting deliberately oversold on gear - they may have perceived needs which can only be met by gear that's beyond them in other areas, or the sales agents may not know about accessories that aren't in their stockroom list.

Canuck's sig line is I have come to the realisation that the Canon 1D Mark II is too much camera for me at this time. It will have to wait. The 10D works great!
How many of the rest of us have that kind of discipline? In cameras, lenses, or computers and image processing software?

[drisley]

hehe, no the lady definately didnt get the camera for the underwater housing option.
My friend bought the G3 about 6 months ago. There were plenty of cheaper options that would have suited him better, like the S or the A series.
But, you are right, in many cases it's not just the sales person who is to blame, it's also the customer. I would say in my friend's case, he definately could be someone who is attracted to the look of the camera, and the fact that it has all these cool looking features.

I have to say though, when I buy something, especially something expensive, I read the manuals from front to back like a good novel. I actually like reading the manuals.
But even if you dont like reading manuals, if you dont know how to use something, and you have a perfectly good manual sitting there, why wouldnt you just pick it up and read it?
I've posed this question to a few of my friends and family members (who wouldnt read the manual on how to inflate a raft even if their life depended on it). They usually just shrug and smile.

[Jon]

Hey, I work computer support. RTFM's my middle name ;{)# I downloaded the PDFs for every manual I could, and they're on my flash drive, 3 laptops and the tower at home, at least. I just wish Canon had released the Elan 7e, 420EX and 550Ex manuals that way.

[timmyquest]

I have $2000 invested in camera gear, maybe more...i have no room to talk.

[karusel]

the story

Wonderful! :lol:

Counting the days until people are going to buy D-SLRs with L-glass shooting in full auto mode... :roll:

Also, a few times I've had an honor to hear the 'oh, great camera, I bet it makes great photos' compliment. I said, well, for the price, size and weight, it better!

Oh yeah, about the manuals... I'm the kind of guy that goes reading them when facing a problem and RTFM is the only solution I can come up with. After reading it though, it becomes obvious that reading a manual for something as complex as a digital camera is very wise. Even if you have owned similar cameras before. And are in addition a technical guy. In which case you wouldn't have a problem using a camera per se, but you'd have no knowledge of advanced functions, some of which are sometimes crucial for a good shot.

[Flyball Rebel]

Hi belmondo, when I was in my dealer (6 weeks ago!!) ordering my MkII, I mentioned to the salesman that my DRebel didn't even have mirror lock-up. He gave me a 'funny look' and said, very seriously, "Sir, 1 out of 1000 people who purchase an expensive DSLR don't even know where the mirror is, let alone mirror lock-up! and as for the word 'aperture' that's non-existant". I stopped and spoke to a 'fellow photographer' sometime ago and DoF cropped up, I gave up after about 10 minutes...he hadn't a clue what I was talking about and I don't think he was at all bothered as long as the shutter clicked and I don't suppose he knew where that was!!!!!!! :wink: [F.R.]

[Vinny454]

Counting the days until people are going to buy D-SLRs with L-glass shooting in full auto mode...

Count no more. I just came home today with my new 10D and here is what the wife said. "It's a lot heavier than the D-Rebel. Is the green box still Auto mode?"

On the too much camera issue. My father in law bought a G5 last year on my recommendation and he only knows Auto mode. The reason I said the G5. Money was not the issue. He just wanted the best picture from a fully auto digital camera. All things being equal, a G5 in auto mode would take a better picture than most other P&S's at the time. Everyone I know that has asked me about digital camera's always say the same thing. I don't want to screw around with settings. I just want to push the button and get a good picture. How do you respond to that? The only thing I bother to ask is what is your budget? Which is probably what most sales people do as well.

Vince

[drisley]

Slightly off topic, but...
With my last batch of photos, I've had quite a few people (not in this forum) say "wow, your pictures are so clear. what camera do you use? I'm convinced that I need to get one".
These are just average joes, not people interested in photography.
For some reason, while I appreciate the compliment, it bothers me at the same time.
I'm sure alot of you in this forum have had people say the exact same thing.

When you hear this do you:
a. feel pride in your photographic skills for eliciting such a response
b. feel like you've been slapped in the face because the comment could almost be read as "the camera MUST be responsible for the great output. since you can get such great shots, I surely can too. All I need is the same equipment."
c. none of the above
d. some other response

[SDK^]

Slightly off topic, but...
With my last batch of photos, I've had quite a few people say "wow, your pictures are so clear. what camera do you use? I'm convinced that I need to get one".


My Parents and Girl Friends Parents always say the same to me but I keep telling them that 5+ years Photography experience and even more Photoshop experience counts for more than any camera, yet they are convinced that if they buy an S60 they will get similar quality photos.

Non photography minded people just don't understand but then I guess that's why we get paid for what we do and they don't :D

[drisley]

Non photography minded people just don't understand but then I guess that's why we get paid for what we do and they don't :D

PAID!? You mean... we can make money from this?!!! :shock:
:twisted: :lol:

Actually, what you said exactly matches what I tell people.
The biggest improvement I find in my pictures actually comes from my post-processing experience, much of it garnered from this forum.
I still see pictures out there taken with older cameras (like Don Ellis' awesome G1/G2 website) that totally blow away anything I could take, even with an MKII and all the L that Canon has to offer.

When I look at the awesome portraits shown in here from the likes of J.A.F., Olegis, and CharlseSu, I acknowledge that I dont have the skills or imagination to do what they do. That is why I like shooting candids.
Every now and then I still do find myself asking what lens was used, and sometimes I wonder if it will be taken as slightly insulting.

[Scottes]

For some reason, while I appreciate the compliment, it bothers me at the same time.
I'm sure alot of you in this forum have had people say the exact same thing.


My favorite about this... My sister-in-law had everyone over for Thanksgiving, and remarked that my "camera must take good pictures" because it was so big and expensive.

After dinner I asked to borrow her pots and pans. She gave me a funny look and said yes, but wanted to know why.

I told her that "dinner was excellent - I figure the pots and pans must make a great meal!"

[JABACo]

My favorite about this... My sister-in-law had everyone over for Thanksgiving, and remarked that my "camera must take good pictures" because it was so big and expensive.

After dinner I asked to borrow her pots and pans. She gave me a funny look and said yes, but wanted to know why.

I told her that "dinner was excellent - I figure the pots and pans must make a great meal!"

So after she kicked you in the knads, what did you cook?

[Scottes]

So after she kicked you in the knads, what did you cook?

I proceeded to cook a turkey in a high-pitched voice. :wink:

[cc10d]

I told her that "dinner was excellent - I figure the pots and pans must make a great meal!"
_________________
Ninja Birder


I like it!! :)

[Aylwin]

Interesting thread. This is exactly what's happened to my friend except in this case, I was the salesman. :wink: He's always envied the quality of my photos so I finally convinced him to get a DSLR. He got the D70 because I couldn't convince him enough to get the 300D (can't say I blame him though).

Anyway, last weekend he climbed Mt. Fuji only to come down with almost all of his photos blurry and basically just awful. I couldn't understand it. Even if he left it on full auto he couldn't possibly have gotten photos so bad. I suspect that he must've switched to manual focus without realizing it and just fired away. If he had a simple point and shoot I'm sure he would've had much better photos.

By the way, naturally, I teased him about getting a Nikon instead of the Canon. :D

[robertwgross]

The Mount Fuji story makes sense. When most hikers get up there for the first time, they tend to be hypoxic to the point where they make all sorts of common errors, like forgetting simple camera controls.

In the old, old days of film, they used to forget to wind the film between shots.

More commonly these days, the camera will lock up due to some basic problem (like tremendous overexposure), and the hypoxic photographer doesn't have enough functioning brainpower to figure it out.

When I went up Fuji, some of my shots were blurry, too, but it was because I was freezing my butt.

---Bob Gross---

[karusel]

By the way, naturally, I teased him about getting a Nikon instead of the Canon. :D

You're my hero! :lol:

[topeju]

A colleague tells of the somewhat older lady he met on a flight, who had a 10D (and I forget which lens) and told my colleague how she was afraid to carry the camera around because it might attract thieves. And kept the camera on full auto because she didn't know what the other settings were for. The coworker was rather tempted to offer some camera selection advice... :-)

[DocFrankenstein]

he climbed Mt. Fuji only to come down with almost all of his photos blurry and basically just awful.
You are very underestimating the complex science of climbing, unless of course Fuji belongs to a methaphorical range of mountains along with mr. Canon and the Nikkor peak I'm not aware about...

[Aylwin]

The Mount Fuji story makes sense. When most hikers get up there for the first time, they tend to be hypoxic to the point where they make all sorts of common errors, like forgetting simple camera controls.

Hmmm... I hadn't thought of that. :roll: But then again, I bet my friend can't work out the camera controls even when he isn't hypoxic. :twisted:

When I went up Fuji, some of my shots were blurry, too, but it was because I was freezing my butt.

LOL :lol:

You are very underestimating the complex science of climbing, unless of course Fuji belongs to a methaphorical range of mountains along with mr. Canon and the Nikkor peak I'm not aware about...

Well, at least as far as Mt. Fuji is concerned, it's not a complex science. You just follow the crowd up the mountain. There's a well defined and well travelled trail. During the summer months of July and August, the mountain is literally full of people up and down the mountain 24 hours a day. People of all ages climb the mountain, the majority of which I'd say is 50 years and over. It's not to say it's not exhausting though. But it's more of a long hike upwards rather than a "climb".

I've been thinking of going myself but the photos I've seen of people dotting the mountain like ants has discouraged me. Going during the off season might be better but then I'd end up like Bob freezing my a** off. ;)

[robertwgross]

You are very underestimating the complex science of climbing, unless of course Fuji belongs to a methaphorical range of mountains along with mr. Canon and the Nikkor peak I'm not aware about...

Mount Fuji, a.k.a. Fujiyama, the mountain symbol of Japan. Climbing it is not a complex science.

---Bob Gross---

[Nolz]

b. feel like you've been slapped in the face because the comment could almost be read as "the camera MUST be responsible for the great output. since you can get such great shots, I surely can too. All I need is the same equipment."


thats EXACTLY how i feel!

those bastids! :roll:

granted the camera helps but by crikey i was the one that framed it set it up organised the lighting and pressed 'click'...its ME!!!!!!!!
8)

but ofcourse i say nothign and just nod :P

[robertwgross]

I've been thinking of going myself but the photos I've seen of people dotting the mountain like ants has discouraged me. Going during the off season might be better but then I'd end up like Bob freezing my a** off. ;)

I went up there in August of 1971, so I must have been only a tiny child. <g>

Seriously, I had a light jacket on and one camera dangling around my neck. The two guys with me didn't even have jackets on, so they were seriously freezing their butts.

I went back in March 1988, equipped with more camera gear. Unfortunately, the road was closed due to snow at Fuji-Yoshida, so I had to bail out.

---Bob Gross---

[Cadwell]

He got the D70 because I couldn't convince him enough to get the 300D (can't say I blame him though).

Anyway, last weekend he climbed Mt. Fuji only to come down with almost all of his photos blurry and basically just awful.

:roll: He should have used an S2 Pro. :roll:

[MikesJo]

Some people just want the best even if they're going to leave it in auto. I had a customer come into the store the other day and was looking for memory for his oly camera. Turns out he still used smart media so then he started looking the class case with the 828, pro1, rebel. He asked to look at them and ask me which one I would get give the 3. I said the rebel b/c of it's speed. So he looked at it and then asked how to take the lens off! I was like, oh geez maybe the pro 1 is better for you. I mean, straight out of the camera you'll get some awesome shots whereas with the dslr you're gonna need some post processing. I even explained to him how you can't view through the LCD w/ the rebel. Also, when he tried shooting w/ it, he just held onto the shutter button and it shot about 5 bursts, he didn't know to stop at 1. Even though I tried telling him about it. He ended up buying it w/ a 55-200mm lens and the rebel kit which includes the battery grip.

I call him up a few days later and check up on him. He asks me if we carry a higher end model like the 10D or 1D, I'm like...err...

Some people just want the best :S

[RikWriter]

I'd have to disagree with the original post. MOST people who buy digital point and shoots just want to use the auto mode and not mess around with anything else. The A80 costs about $300 now and is hardly too much camera for such a person...it's actually close to perfect for them.

[drisley]

Yeah, ok, I guess the A80 is just about right, but the G3/G5 is definately overkill.

After dinner I asked to borrow her pots and pans. She gave me a funny look and said yes, but wanted to know why.

I told her that "dinner was excellent - I figure the pots and pans must make a great meal!"

That is such an awesome analogy. I love it. Too funny! :lol:

[SnJPhoto]

I'll add another story.

I shot a corporate golf tournament yesterday (what a pain, don't do one of these alone...) and about half way through I had one of the participants start asking questions about brand of camera etc. This turned into a Q&A about settings, lenses etc. Come to find out he had a DRebel, but had no idea of how to use it. After about 2 hours, he caught up to me in the parking lot and started asking more questions about the basics of photography. As I was getting ready to leave he finally caught up to me in the parking lot and asked if there was some chance I would be willing to teach him for fee. So you just never know where you will find your next client.

Scott

[Sailare]

I think it's a matter of having two much money. Not too unusual to over buy on emotion.

Just look at the SUV market. How many go off road? Same thing. I suspect most don't even know how to check the oil or change a tire and we are talking 10's of thousands of dollars here.

[DocFrankenstein]

Just look at the SUV market. How many go off road? Same thing. I suspect most don't even know how to check the oil or change a tire and we are talking 10's of thousands of dollars here.
I'd think you need an SUV with winters we have, and not for off road only.

[drisley]

Yeah, I just love when the local news has it's latest piece on "High Gas Prices", and they interview all these people who are super mad. Meanwhile, they are sitting in these HUGE SUV's.
:lol:

[blacktape]

I had my Mk II, and he said he'd heard of it, so we sat there admiring each other's cameras for a while when I noticed his was set to shoot full auto.

You sure you were admiring his? :wink:

You big liar! :P

[Persian-Rice]

If I had the money, why would I buy a 3.0 ghz computer when i can have a 3.8.............................Even if its too much for my needs.

I totally agree that it is too much camera............If he went out of his way to buy it, then I would say he was a victim of a greedy salesman, if he could not care less about spending that kinda money, then why not..........

I have come acreoss a lot of this type stuff when I used to race at the track.......guys came with cars, had no clue what was what........just knew they had a fast car, too bad they couldn't drive......

Cheers.

[MarkH]

Yeah, ok, I guess the A80 is just about right, but the G3/G5 is definately overkill.


The A80 and the G3 are both 4MPix with a swivel LCD, but even in full auto you might get better shots from the G3 in low light. Why is the G3 so definately overkill?

Both the G3 and the A80 have the choice of full auto or manual settings. The G3 is better for low light with a better lens and a flash hotshoe, besides those 2 features, how much difference is there really?

Why can't you mount a flash on the G3 and shoot auto? If this is something that you buy the G3 to do then you couldn't get the A80 and do the same thing.

I think that some people here don't understand the difference between various cameras. Having manual controls is a feature found on the A80, having P mode is found on the 1D MkII. Who really believes that you buy a 1D MkII so that you can have manual control over the settings? Who really believes that the A80 on manual can equal a 1D MkII on auto?

On my 10D I use P, Av, Tv and M as appropriate. My shots on P are as good as any on Av or Tv or M. I only move the wheel from P to Tv when I need a certain shutter speed (motorsports). I only move from P to Av when I need to control DoF or get whatever speed the camera will give me to suit the subject (Waterfalls at min Aperture for example). I only use M when the camera is unable to set the exposure correctly (motorsports with headlight facing me, the camera underexposes badly). Is P mode really the spawn of the devil?

[robertwgross]

Why can't you mount a flash on the G3 and shoot auto? If this is something that you buy the G3 to do then you couldn't get the A80 and do the same thing.

I think that some people here don't understand the difference between various cameras.

Since this is the Canon EOS digital forum, I don't think many would give a rat's patoot about the non-EOS camera differences.

---Bob Gross---

[KartGirlsMom]

Oh yea!! There are people out there who have less than a clue than I have :D

[drisley]

The A80 and the G3 are both 4MPix with a swivel LCD, but even in full auto you might get better shots from the G3 in low light. Why is the G3 so definately overkill?
Because, I know the person with the G3, and he would NEVER use an external flash.
The second guy I met had no clue how to turn off the internal flash, so I'm 99% sure he would NEVER use an external flash either.
By the looks of your post, you've never come across "joe average" with one of these camaras. True, if you were talking about most people in this forum, the G3 would be great. But the VAST majority of people out there with digicams don't have a clue how to use any of the functions on the camera outside of "auto". There is no way they are going to know how to use an external flash.

[mdude85]

I don't know if this is really on topic but I think I see what you're saying -- what people are concerned with these days seems to be megapixels and zoom, and the market is saturated with these facts that they throw at people. The setup I carry around the most is a D30 and 50 mm 1.8 prime. If I had a dime for every time I had to answer the question, "what's the zoom on that thing?" only to tell them "Well, it's a prime lens which means it doesn't have any zoom," and hear "oh, no zoom? what a piece of crap. My A80 has 3x zoom," .......

I would be a rich man. But then again I don't expect people to really know about SLR photography so I am always pretty patient. I'm just saying, the inundation in the market with cheap products has created a whole new breed of "preconsumers," people who barely do any research and then pick up a camera in a store because the sales person tells them it has a nice optical zoom or what have you.

my rant for the day.

[MarkH]

I don't know if this is really on topic but I think I see what you're saying -- what people are concerned with these days seems to be megapixels and zoom, and the market is saturated with these facts that they throw at people. The setup I carry around the most is a D30 and 50 mm 1.8 prime. If I had a dime for every time I had to answer the question, "what's the zoom on that thing?" only to tell them "Well, it's a prime lens which means it doesn't have any zoom," and hear "oh, no zoom? what a piece of crap. My A80 has 3x zoom," .......


The trouble is with your answer, you assumed they were asking about the lens, they were actually asking about the camera. The camera has a variable zoom depending on the lens used (because it is an interchangeable lens SLR). So the camera can give any optical focal length from 8mm to 1200mm (2400mm with 2x teleconverter). You should explain that because you can change lenses your camera is capable of 150x optical zoom (300x if you count teleconverter).

There is no fixed lens camera that can equal the range of focal lengths available to a Canon D-SLR!

[DocFrankenstein]

So the camera can give any optical focal length from 8mm to 1200mm (2400mm with 2x teleconverter). You should explain that because you can change lenses your camera is capable of 150x optical zoom (300x if you count teleconverter).

:D

And you can even use both teleconverters, or attach it to a telescope. :roll:

[Aylwin]

Mark, that's a really good way of putting it! I never really thought of it like that before! I'll use it the next time someone asks! :D

It's true though, most people only care about pixels and zoom. The more educated ones will distinguish between optical and digital zoom. But still, hardly anyone would distinguish between the body or the lens of a DSLR. So when they ask, "What's the zoom on that thing?" They're referring to that big heavy object in your hand.

Heck, even those making the switch from P&S to DSLR will try to equate zoom lenses in terms of x times optical zoom. Of course, I understand it. It's what they're used to.

We just have to take the time to explain things... so that afterwards we'll hear a reply like, "Ahh, that's too big, heavy and complicated. I got 10x optical zoom in my hand right here. More pixels too!" :roll:

[JABACo]

I also hear, "I've got a 10x zoom". I always ask, "10x of what"?.

And for that matter, I don't know either. I guess it depends on the camera but it's usually 28mm to 35mm. I think.

Someone clarify this for me.

BA

[drisley]

I like the look people give me when they see my 135F2L and EF 1.4x and ask "holy cow! how much zoom is that thing?!" and I say "1x".
:lol:

[Jon]

I also hear, "I've got a 10x zoom". I always ask, "10x of what"?.

And for that matter, I don't know either. I guess it depends on the camera but it's usually 28mm to 35mm. I think.

Someone clarify this for me.

BA

Actually, it's usually 5.4 or 7.6 or something - the 35 mm. equivalent is 28 or 35 or 38 or . . . One of those grand old marketing features which are so essentially meaningless when you look at them (sorta like Empty Magnification, er, Digital Zoom). The ratio between shortest and longest focal lengths.