Selecting areas in PS. ***UDATED***

[PhotosGuy]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/PhotosGuy/Forum%20Junk/Selection-Tut.jpg
More here: http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v218/PhotosGuy/Samples%20-%20Rides/

A lot of advanced post processing procedures in PS require a selection to be made, so that you can work with just a part of an image. Filter>Extract works well if there's a lot of fine detail like hair or weeds that you need to select, but most of the time I'm working with something that has hard, well defined edges, so...

My favorite selection tool is the Polygonal Lasso Tool, because it's precise & it only anchors when you click. (If the phone rings, you can just leave the mouse where it is & pick up the process where you left off 3 hours later.)
So, click, release, (NOT click & drag), move, click again... 'till you're done. If you click in a wrong spot, hit 'Del', NOT 'Esc', & the last anchor point will be removed.
Set it at 1-2 pixels Feather; I usually use 1 on 'full' sized 6MP TIFFs. If you're working with low res JPEGs, your "results will differ" as they say in the disclaimers!

The first secret, if there one, is that a curve is simply a series of straight lines if you blow it up large enough, which is why I like this tool - you don't have to painfully follow a curve exactly while holding the mouse button down.
So, the 2nd secret is to make the pic BIG. No, BIGGER that that! Try 300% for a 'full' sized 6MP TIFF. You want to see the distribution of pixels along the edge & I draw the selection just inside of the outside edge.
If you 'run out of' pic, & need to move to a fresh area with it, just nudge the pic border & PS will scroll to the new area of the pic. Or, as Scottes said, "If you run out of picture and need to scroll around, just hold down the spacebar. The Polygonal Lasso Tool will temporarily change to a Hand icon, and you can click and drag the pic around. Let go of the spacebar and you're back to the Polygonal Lasso Tool where you left off.", but I still prefer to just nudge the pic border. Everyone has their own way to do things PS gives you a lot of options to customize your workflow.

Sometimes you can "lose your place" & not be sure whether you need to include or exclude a part of the image. CTRL (plus) + will increase the magnification. CTRL (plus) - will...
CTRL + Shift (plus) + will giver you bigger jumps.

I like to Hit F twice & TAB once to get a bigger screen to work with. Try it. These are just toggles & hitting F or Tab again will take you back to the screen you started with.

3rd "secret":
For very dark areas that tend to blend in together...

1. Make an Layer> New Adjustment Layer / Levels.
[The beauty of these is that changes aren't permanent since PS remember the inputs and holding ALT (makes Cancel change to RESET) & clicking on the Cancel button will let you go right back to the original zero settings. Or, you can just drag the sliders to the new settings that you want to use.]

2. Drag the middle slider to the left to brighten up the dark areas. I usually start with this.
3. Select the bottom dark areas. I usually close the selection & save it to a Channel. Click on the Channels Tab, & click on the 'Save selection' button at the bottom
When you've done that, then you can turn the 'eye' off on the Adjustment Layer if you're done with it, or...

Then, for very bright areas that tend to have little detail...
4. Double click on the Adjustment Layer to open it, or hit CTRL+ALT+L (= Levels with last settings). Reset it so the bright areas have some detail & separation from the background.
NOTE: DO NOT HIT CTRL+ALT+L IF AN ADJUSTMENT LAYER IS NOT PRESENT! That will run Auto Levels, & you might not notice that happen.
5. Hold down Shift & start selecting the bright areas to add them to the previous selection. (If you screw up & the previous selection disappears, goto the Select menu & Recall the selection. Or Shift+CTRL+D). Or use the selection channel you saved to recall the selection.

6. Double click on the Adjustment Layer & Reset it to 'zero' (the original settings). Or you can just drag it to the Trashcan. Or you can turn the 'eye' off on the Adjustment Layer & just leave it there for later use.
7. Shift- click to start adding the 'normal' areas to the other selections.

When the selection is OK, hit F once & TAB once to get back to your 'normal' PS screen if you used them before Step 1.
The NEXT thing you MUST do (trust me on this) is to click on the Channels Tab, & click on the 'Save selection' button at the bottom again.

Remember, after you've made the primary selection, you may want to modify it.
SUBTRACT from a selection by holding down ALT 'till you click inside the previous selection, then you can release ALT & continue clicking.
ADD to the selection by holding down SHIFT 'till you click OUTside the selection in the pic, then you can release SHIFT & continue with the selection.

After a while, you'll be able to make a complex selection in about 5 minutes - not as fast as the 'automatic' selection tools, but you won't have to spend time cleaning up the 'automatic' mistakes, either.

I hope you have no problems with this, but if you find misTeaKs, let me know!

Some examples of the finished car shots. (http://photobucket.com/albums/v218/PhotosGuy/Samples%20-%20Rides/)

There are more links, including more complex extraction methods using both PS & free software in this thread:
Mustang & B-17 + PS (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=91393)

EDIT:
Using selections with a Layer Mask to change a background. (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=82876) Again, this works best with "non-hairy" objects like cars, but it will illustrate using a Layer Mask.

There's some screenshots of the Palettes in this thread: Some shots of Jim's '68 AMX (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=393917) and in Post #5 in this one: '83 Camaro Z28 Pro Street 502 Part #1 (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=744083)

EDIT: And it's nice to have something worth the time you spend on this, so here's some ideas on "A few Car Lighting Tips" (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=70290)

EDIT-2:
More on "1. Make an Layer> New Adjustment Layer / Levels." above: Adjustment Layers are great for making local changes when you only need to adjust part of an image:
Airport runway shoot (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=117950)

See post #14 & 15 of larsj53's 75 Chevy Laguna S-3 (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1069645)

And see post #13 in this, & the links in it.
Malibu in the snow. (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=620283)

More on Layer Masks in post #31, below.

All the ways to mask in PS:
A Comprehensive Introduction to Photoshop Selection Techniques (http://psd.tutsplus.com/tutorials/tools-tips/a-comprehensive-introduction-to-photoshop-selection-techniques/#more-560) - Psdtuts+

A more complex method where you have trees or hair in the image...
Russell Brown Tips & Techniques: Advanced Masking (http://www.russellbrown.com/tips_tech.html#CS3AdvancedMasking)
The advanced tut video: http://av.adobe.com/russellbrown/ExtractSM.mov

The improved Refine Edges tool in CS5: PS help with combining multiple images ... (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1149802)

[tommykjensen]

Thank You for the tips :D

[PhotosGuy]

You're welcome, Tommy. I Just hope I didn't leave something out!

[NativeCraft]

Frank,
Thanks a bunch for sharing such great info.. I've recently been learning to do just what you've described and it works much better, to me at least, than that danged "magnetic lasso tool.
Please don't hesitate to share some more tips and thanks for taking the time to type it out for us.

Tom A.

[PhotosGuy]

Your welcome. This is the 'biggest' tip that most people seem to ignore in the online Tutorials! I wasted a lot of time with the "magnetic lasso" when I started out, too.

Let me know if you have any problems with this method, & good luck.

[dennykyser]

Great post, has helped me a lot. Denny

[Jmurman]

thanks!

[Scottes]

This is great stuff!

I've got three tips to add to this...

1) If you run out of picture and need to scroll around, just hold down the spacebar. The PolyLasso will temporarily change to a Hand icon, and you can click and drag the pic around. Let go of the spacebar and you're back to the PolyLasso where you left off.

2) Once you finally have a selection you can use any selection tool - Lasso, Marquee, Magic Wand - to add or subtract to the selection.

3) Once the selection is done, you can save it by choose Select... Save Selection and choosing a channel name. It adds a new channel "layer" which is extremely space efficient, so it won't add to much to file size. You can get back the selection by choosing Select... Load Selection. If you go through the 5 minutes to create the selction, take another 10 seconds to save it for posterity.


I actually can't wait to try this on a very problematic egret I posted the other day...

Frank, thanks. And please add a link to this in the Tutorials Topic.

[PhotosGuy]

Frank, thanks. And please add a link to this in the Tutorials Topic.

Was there, did that! It's not very elegant, as I didn't bother with the formatting, but the link is there.

If I'd known that this was going to be so popular, I'd have included a screenshot, or two! :lol:

[alisam]

Quote: 1) If you run out of picture and need to scroll around, just hold down the spacebar. The PolyLasso will temporarily change to a Hand icon, and you can click and drag the pic around. Let go of the spacebar and you're back to the PolyLasso where you left off


Thanks for this. I thought Selection was difficult until I read this. I have tried and tried with Photoshop Elements 2 and attempted to find an easy way of selecting part of an image. There seems to be drawbacks with all the available options.

[Namagemo]

I want to add my thanks also! :D
This is just another example of why I consider this one of the finest forums that I'm aware of on the 'net :!: :!: :!:

[ttommott]

Can anyone tell me the best way to convert digital images into negatives to use with a conventional enlarger? Many of my photography students don't have film cameras and wonder if they can convert their digital images into negatives we can use in a 35mm enlarger to make black and white silver prints. Any ideas?

[Jesper]

Can anyone tell me the best way to convert digital images into negatives to use with a conventional enlarger? Many of my photography students don't have film cameras and wonder if they can convert their digital images into negatives we can use in a 35mm enlarger to make black and white silver prints. Any ideas?Start your question in a new thread, that will most likely give you more useful responses!

[Mernya]

I love the poly-lasso and use it too much as it is. To get some better results, learn the pen tool a little more and take advantage of using bezier curves to do your round edges.

[PhotosGuy]

The pen tool IS a great tool, but is a PITA if people get past the learning curve but don't use it every day. I've taught CS, & still prefer the PLT for fast work & it's very accurate at 300%. I try to keep these simple so everyone can get through them, so I left it out.

[MattyB]

OMG frank, i read this tutorial before, but i skimmed because i use the same technique as you
then.. just now, i read it properly.
and i found the "feather" pixel option
it just made my life so much better :D my selections were always harsh and jaggered, and looked out of place when slapped onto another background

:D

you = genius

[PhotosGuy]

Glad it helped, Matt! I'm using 1 pixel more these days & it works well for me. Looks good even on 12X18" prints!
Someone pointed out this advanced masking demo the other day & it looks great for isolating fine detail like hair. Everyone should take a look at it as it seems much more precise than the Extract filter.
http://av.adobe.com/russellbrown/AdvancedMasking.mov

[ricphoto]

I'm a BIG fan of the pen tool for this kind of work - well, my kind of work is with car photo-journalism.
The pen tool allows me to place many more points which I can go back to and re-position.
This is critical for ensuring wheels and tyres are perfectly round, with correct flow of the tyre line and to avoid 'Flat spots'.
A good tip on any curved surface is to place as many points as possible ... yes, a curve can be made with straight lines, but the more of them the better for that 'illusion' of perfect roundness.

I will spend up to 1/2 hour going around a single car to get it perfect, feather to 2 pixels and yes, 300% minimum.
Then rigth click inside the selection and choose make selection .. then go up adn choose inverse.

Then I can apply motion blur to the background.

Furtehr tips .... don't forget to use radial blur seperately for the wheels, make sure th front wheels and back wheels 'rotate at the same speed.'

And don't forget to apply motion blur through the windows or under the undercarriage areas as well.
after all, no point having the car moving, but when you look through the windows everything is stationary !!

Cheers

[malum]

I have never used the ploygon lasso tool (didn't know what it did)
I use the pen and bezier curves, which is a little like learning to ride a bike, tough to start with but once you get the hang of it you don't forget it.

I will check out the polygon lasso tool as well, thanks for the guide.

[cfcRebel]

I have a newbie question (or some calls stupid question). When i use the polygon lasso tool, i click to anchor. At a sharp curve, i click more often to place more anchors but sometimes i click too fast it becomes a double-click. That means the last anchor will automatically join with the first anchor at the beginning of the selection. I press DELETE, that doesn't undo the double-click. Neither does ESCAPE. So what should i do to undo the accidental double-click?
Thanks in advance.

[PhotosGuy]

I press DELETE, that doesn't undo the double-click. Neither does ESCAPE. So what should i do to undo the accidental double-click? That only works for single clicks.

You can add to a selection. Like where I said,
"Remember, after you've made the primary selection, you may want to modify it.
SUBTRACT from a selection by holding down ALT 'till you click inside the previous selection, then you can release ALT & continue clicking.
ADD to the selection by holding down SHIFT 'till you click OUTside the selection in the pic, then you can release SHIFT & continue with the selection."
That works well all the selection tools. Try it out. :)

[cfcRebel]

I'll remember not to click too fast. If i do, i'll use the ADD & SUBTRACT. Thanks Frank. ;)

[RAitch]

I've never been happy with the results of the lasso tools to pop an image off the background. You have to spend a lot of time to make a good selection, and even then, the feather is constantly applied in areas that maybe shouldn't have a feather.

One tip about the feather though, I always leave the tool feather option at 0 and apply the feather after (Select > Feather). This way, you won't make a selection and forget to change the amount (before you click around for an hour). I got in the habit of selecting first, saving the selection, then applying a feather after. That way you can find a nice sweet spot.

I prefer to try to use image data when I can. Here's an example I threw together.
http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=100077

Notice I also use the lasso tools... but rarely ever for extractions. It either takes too much time (I'm lazy) or gives harsh edges. Sometimes you want a hard edge in your selection... other times soft. That makes selection tools even harder to get results with.

I usually use the lasso tools when creating masks. They come in handy as a starting point, then you can go in and clean them up. For fine detail (as in my tutorial above) I'll use the poly tool for straight edges. For creating transitions between sky and land colour corrections, I usually do a quick pass with the mag tool and give the mask a slight gaussian blur... same as feathering really. Since I'm not worried about it being perfect, the lassos are fine.

Another tip, CTRL click a mask or channel to load it as a selection.
CTRL+SHIFT click on it and it will add to your current selection
CTRL+ALT+SHIFT click to create an intersection... the areas that are selected in both cases.

Don't forget about Quick Mask mode. Here, you can create selections using any painting tool.

[PhotosGuy]

Don't forget about Quick Mask mode. Here, you can create selections using any painting tool. It's another of my non-favorites 'cause you are clicking-holding-dragging again. Someone else may get good results, but click-move-click works much better for me. I usually use the lasso tools when creating masks. They come in handy as a starting point, then you can go in and clean them up. I've found extremly little clean-up necessary with the Polygonal Lasso Tool at 300%. One tip about the feather though, I always leave the tool feather option at 0 and apply the feather after That would work for the whole object. Another way is to change the feather while you work. Select an area at one setting, close it, & save it to a channel. Then select another setting to add to the previous selection. Here's an example I threw together. I saw it & it looks good for the subjects you work on.
Nice thing about PS is that there are so many ways to get the needed effect.
:)

[RAitch]

It's another of my non-favorites 'cause you are clicking-holding-dragging again.
Hmmm... I think of Photoshop as a painting program... with analog controls... and "painting while holding" is a common occurance. I find that method really helps to get nice results.
I was thinking about getting a tablet. Have you ever looked into that?

I've found extremly little clean-up necessary with the Polygonal Lasso Tool at 300%.
Really? How many times are you clicking in an inch?

That would work for the whole object. Another way is to change the feather while you work. Select an area at one setting, close it, & save it to a channel. Then select another setting to add to the previous selection.
That's pretty complex.. you'd have to break it down into a bunch of groups.

I saw it & it looks good for the subjects you work on.
Nice thing about PS is that there are so many ways to get the needed effect.
It works for all subjects... cars, people, hair, landscapes, spiders, flowers... image data is great to build selections on.
How long would it take you to click around a person that fills the frame in an 8mp image?
It sounds like what you're doing would take a very long time.

How do you do hair or semi transparent objects with the losso tools?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking here... just curious.
I used to use the PLT for selections but either spent too much time trying to get a selection perfect or was disapointed with the obvious lift when replacing a background.

What objects do you use this method for?

[PhotosGuy]

I was thinking about getting a tablet. Have you ever looked into that? I've thought about it, but this works well for now. How many times are you clicking in an inch? What's the radius of the curve? ;) Whatever it takes to stay within it.
Average is maybe 2-3 clicks per screen inch. How long would it take you to click around a person that fills the frame in an 8mp image?I wouldn't generally use it for people.
What objects do you use this method for?
The key is in the 1st paragraph where I said, "but most of the time I'm working with something that has hard, well defined edges,..." like cars. (http://photobucket.com/albums/v218/PhotosGuy/Samples%20-%20Rides/)

[RAitch]

Agreed!
I find it interesting that you don't use the pen tool... or prefer not to. Most people stay away until they realize that they shouldn't be as intimidated as they are. It's actually really easy to use once you get going with a little practice... and you can get some nice traces with minimal work.

It's not for everybody though.
Keep up the good work. Extracting has to be one of the hardest things to do in Photoshop (image editing really) and you just have to use whatever is best for you.

[PhotosGuy]

I find it interesting that you don't use the pen tool... or prefer not to. I used it a lot 15 years ago in my Amiga. I just don't have any reason to scale selections up/down anymore, so the PLT does a good job without having to look at all the control points.
I do find the Custom Shape Tool useful at times, though.

I didn't suggest that people use the Pen Tool here 'cause (1) It's not necessary & (2) to keep the whole thing simple(r). If you want to spend a lot of time answering questions like "Why doesn't the control point...", then I suggest that you write a tutorial & post the thread. Then kiss all your free time goodbye! :D

[RAitch]

I used it a lot 15 years ago in my Amiga. I just don't have any reason to scale selections up/down anymore, so the PLT does a good job without having to look at all the control points.
I do find the Custom Shape Tool useful at times, though.

I didn't suggest that people use the Pen Tool here 'cause (1) It's not necessary & (2) to keep the whole thing simple(r). If you want to spend a lot of time answering questions like "Why doesn't the control point...", then I suggest that you write a tutorial & post the thread. Then kiss all your free time goodbye! :D
LOL, maybe that can be my next tutorial... if I have time.
Agreed, simple is good. I know Photoshop can be intimidating... but once you use it for a while, it's pretty easy. You just become limited by your creativity instead of abilities.
Good job trying to help people out. I like to help people out.

Just an annoying last pointless comment, wouldn't there be more points with the PLT than the pen tool? (wink wink - just buggin')

[PhotosGuy]

:D :D They're tiny little points! ;)

[PhotosGuy]

More on Layer Masks: (Afterthoughts) ;)

In PS "Help"
Click the Index Tab
Click on "L" at the top.
Go down to Layer Mask Channel & click on [1] which brings up, "Creating and editing layer masks" for more info that will help you understand how masks work.


Some points to Remember:

1/ A change made with Image> Adjustments is permanent. A change made through Layer> New Adjustment Layer, or Layer> Add Layer Mask can always be modified.

2/ Layer masks are very small in comparison to the original image & are always worth saving as a Channel.

3/ Also in the Index under "L":
Layer Masks; "Adjustment Layers as" brings up "Creating adjustment layers or fill layers".
"By default, adjustment layers and fill layers have layer masks, as indicated by the mask icon to the left of the layer thumbnail." so anything you can do with a "normal" Layer Mask that you make yourself, you can do with an Adjustment Layer, too.

4/ The Background layer will accept an adjustment layer through Layer> New Adjustment Layer, but will not accept Layer> Add Layer Mask. But, if you...
A/ 2-click on the "Background" name & change the name to the default "Layer 0" or anything else, the layer will accept a Layer Mask.
B/ Same if you duplicate the Background layer & work with the dupe. Problem is that you've just doubled the file size. Advantage is that you have the original layer to fall back on if you screw up somewhere.

[Scottes]

A/ 2-click on the "Background" name & change the name to the default "Layer 0" or anything else, the layer will accept a Layer Mask.
Or Alt-Double-Click on the "Background" name, which will unlock the background layer. (I just find this faster and don't mind the name Background.)

[Canonista]

Thanks! I almost got it. A little more practice and I might get it someday.

This is in front of Slow's Bar BQ a couple blocks away from the old Tiger Stadium. My Dad loved baseball and would've been tickled to be down there. The food was awesome!

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r288/Canonista/Detroit-Jeepin.jpg

[PhotosGuy]

That looks good. There used to be a place up Mich Ave from there that only served pea soup & ham sandwiches at lunch. Just huge slabs of ham, too. I wonder if it's still there.

[weka2000]

very helpful thread.