Should I sell pictures?

[mpkirby]

So I went out with a local kayaking club today an got some shots:
http://www.fototime.com/2C89775BD0502B6/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/D28CF364BB4AF97/orig.jpg

Originally, I figured I woudl just shoot for my own practice, but the guy running the club asked if he could have some for promotional use. It's a non profit, but even so, I spent 4 hours there, plus photoshop time and equipment (not to mention gas).

So I though I'd offer a couple to him for free, and then something dirt cheap (like $10 per picture). Also, if any of his members want prints I was going to offer them for something like $20 per picture (8x10).

I know it's ridiculously low compared to what people normally charge, but I'm not into it for the money. At the same time, I don't want to start becoming "popular" to invite to events where I fill my role as free photographer.

Two questions.

1) What do you think of the shots?
2) Is my pricing / attitude reasonable?

Mike

[IndyJeff]

Mike the shots are pretty decent but, my opinion or your opinion of the shots isn't what counts. It is if the participants feel they want them and are good enough to buy. Ask if the promotor has a website and provide him with some small low res images for that in exchange for some advertising on his site.
Two ways you can do this, post them on a site like Printroom.com and sell them or get the prints done and take them to the next event and see if they buy them.
If you would have a way of printing a contact sheet at the event and passing around you might be able to take orders, get paid then and ship them out to the kayakers. That is something that takes a lot of careful logistics so you don't send Bill Sam's picture and vice a versa.

One word of caution....saturation....and I don't mean color. Figure you may be able to do 2 of these events and the people who will buy will buy. Those who aren't interested will never buy, just look. Thing is even the buyers will only buy so many, you can only have so many pictures of yourself in a kayak to hang on the wall before one starts to look just like the last one.

Good luck and I think you may be on to something here.

[robertwgross]

Just because the organization is non-profit, that does not mean that they do not have any money. Also, just because it is non-profit, it does not mean that you have to be non-profit as well.

Figure out a deal that will be equally advantageous to the organization and also to you. Besides, with all of that water splashing around, sooner or later some of your equipment may be damaged by it. Then who is going to pay for repair or replacement?

---Bob Gross---

[mpkirby]

Just because the organization is non-profit, that does not mean that they do not have any money. Also, just because it is non-profit, it does not mean that you have to be non-profit as well.

Figure out a deal that will be equally advantageous to the organization and also to you. Besides, with all of that water splashing around, sooner or later some of your equipment may be damaged by it. Then who is going to pay for repair or replacement?

---Bob Gross---

Haha! That's a really good piont :-)

When their kayak's break, the fix them with 50 cent epoxy and fiberglass. When my 28-135mm falls in the drink, I get a new one :-(

Mike

[DaveG]

So I went out with a local kayaking club today an got some shots:
http://www.fototime.com/2C89775BD0502B6/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/D28CF364BB4AF97/orig.jpg

Originally, I figured I woudl just shoot for my own practice, but the guy running the club asked if he could have some for promotional use. It's a non profit, but even so, I spent 4 hours there, plus photoshop time and equipment (not to mention gas).

So I though I'd offer a couple to him for free, and then something dirt cheap (like $10 per picture). Also, if any of his members want prints I was going to offer them for something like $20 per picture (8x10).

I know it's ridiculously low compared to what people normally charge, but I'm not into it for the money. At the same time, I don't want to start becoming "popular" to invite to events where I fill my role as free photographer.

Two questions.

1) What do you think of the shots?
2) Is my pricing / attitude reasonable?

Mike

I think that one of the things that I do when I shoot sports is to make sure that I'm shooting people. Now I know that sounds self evident but I would suggest that if it's at all possible to reposition yourself so you can see two eyes of the athletes. We all make eye contact whenever we meet anyone or look into an image. That's why if the eyes are sharp then the picture is sharp, and it's something humans natually want to do.

As for not-for-profits my strategy is to suggest this to the organization if I'm approached: I'll provide images to them as long as they're used for information only. They could use them in newsletters and brochures and the like, as long as I could submit them digitally (so there's no extra cost to me) and that I get a credit line on every photo. But I would require my regular re-use fees if any of their commercial sponsors want images.

It's kind of interesting to watch the reaction to this pitch from the organization's agent. I suspect that they've already suggested to the sponsor that they'll get all the free images that they could want; and it comes as a great shock when they realize that there's a cost. My feeliing is that the Kayak club could use some help. Wal-Mart on the other hand should pay.

I'd also want to be the only "official" photographer there. Of course there's going to be press there (if they want) and the spectator's themselves will all have D70's :D, But I don't want them to line-up two or three "volunteers", so I'd get 1/3 of the credits. Hey I'm doing this for no money, but don't confuse that for doing it for nothing!

Be careful about doing things for nothing. As funny as this sounds they will treat you worse if they don't have to pay for anything. You'd think that they'd go out of there way to make things easy for you but you've established your own value for your work, and that's zero. So why should they treat you better than zero? Even this "the sponsors must pay" raises your value, even if there are no sponsors!

And MAKE SURE in WRITING that they know that everything you shoot is YOURS!!!!!

[mpkirby]

I think that one of the things that I do when I shoot sports is to make sure that I'm shooting people. Now I know that sounds self evident but I would suggest that if it's at all possible to reposition yourself so you can see two eyes of the athletes. We all make eye contact whenever we meet anyone or look into an image. That's why if the eyes are sharp then the picture is sharp, and it's something humans natually want to do.


Yes. As it turns out, this is a 12 foot waterfall, and getting below the waterfall is something that is only done with a kayak, and a waterproof housing for my 10D. As I don't have such a housing (and can't swim), I had to make do with where I was.

Here is a different (wider) shot that gives you an idea of my vantage point:
http://www.fototime.com/B2B12D4A6478502/orig.jpg

If I had a longer lens, I could go downstream and shoot from a greater distance (the exif data indicates this spot was about 50 meters away). I was probabaly about 4 or 5 feet above the top of the waterfall.

Mike

[timmyquest]

Has anyone brought up releaes forms...you'd hate to see something go very sour because you were trying to make a buck.

[defordphoto]

Has anyone brought up release forms...you'd hate to see something go very sour because you were trying to make a buck.

Release forms are not required in this case. They are out in the public at a sporting event. These photos can be published freely on the Net, and sold freely to any newspaper or magazine publication at the photographer's whim. Also, being that it was a club event, I doubt anything was sign by Mike so he has total, 100% rights to these photos and can do whatever he wants with them.

Just like with my boat photos. I don't sign anything regarding photo status when I shoot those races. ChampCar, ALMS, Trans-Am, etc. are entirely different though as we (as credentialed media) have limited rights to our photos.

[DaveG]

Has anyone brought up release forms...you'd hate to see something go very sour because you were trying to make a buck.

Release forms are not required in this case. They are out in the public at a sporting event. These photos can be published freely on the Net, and sold freely to any newspaper or magazine publication at the photographer's whim. Also, being that it was a club event, I doubt anything was sign by Mike so he has total, 100% rights to these photos and can do whatever he wants with them.

Just like with my boat photos. I don't sign anything regarding photo status when I shoot those races. ChampCar, ALMS, Trans-Am, etc. are entirely different though as we (as credentialed media) have limited rights to our photos.

You'd pretty much have the right to do all of this without a release except you couldn't sell it to a commerical entity. They may well be stupid enough to buy your shot without a model release but you can't count on it. And if it showed up in an ad without permission there would be hell to pay for everyone. And good old Charlie WILL sue when he shows up in a Wal-Mart ad!

Getting releases signed isn't all that tough if the organizers make it part of the entry application. No signature, no entry or no me.

[defordphoto]

:) Yes, except for ads/commercial use.

[timmyquest]

I pretty much knew that RFM except that i dont see how this applies here.

can be published freely on the Net, and sold freely to any newspaper or magazine publication

As i understood it he wants to sell it to the club organizer for promotional things, and then of course sell it to the subjects themselves.

I highly doubt he'd have any issues with this...but i'm not a betting man 8)

[defordphoto]

I pretty much knew that RFM except that i dont see how this applies here.

can be published freely on the Net, and sold freely to any newspaper or magazine publication

As i understood it he wants to sell it to the club organizer for promotional things, and then of course sell it to the subjects themselves.

I highly doubt he'd have any issues with this...but i'm not a betting man 8)

When people are out in the public, doing public things we can shoot them at any time and sell those photos to any news publication without their permission, be it newspapers or magazines. And also display on the Net.

What I am saying is that except for commercial display/sales, a release is not needed in this case.

[JoeTampa]

Depends on how they are used on the Internet.. If you are promoting your own work, you need a release - that is a commercial use.

[mpkirby]

Depends on how they are used on the Internet.. If you are promoting your own work, you need a release - that is a commercial use.

I'm not a lawyer, but here is an iteresting read on what one needs to do to release work:

Model Release (http://photography.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.apogeephoto.com% 2Fmag4-6%2Fmag4-6model_releases.shtml)

They also have a sample release form. If anyone else has any good links on the subject I'll post them to my links page:

http://www.frontiernet.net/~mpkirby/Photography.html

Mike

[defordphoto]

Interesting, Mike, that they do not mention public events. When you attend a public event, you're wide open to almost every aspect of photography to be published on the Net (in a non-commecrial format), or editorial format, such as newspaper or magazine article, with no release required, in the US.

However, that link is a fairly good guide to follow. If in doubt, get a model release.