FEC?

[mezorn26]

How do you set your FEC during the receptions? Through the flash, or through the camera?

on average what do you use? I am thinking -1.5 for the average reception light

[Wedding Shooter]

I shoot manual flash at the reception. You have consistant light - so go manual.

Setting FEC through the flash or the camera gives the same result. I think it is easier to change on the camera personally.

[jamiewexler]

On the camera, but that's just my personal preference.

You must be at some bright receptions. I'm typically at +1 when I am shooting TTL at receptions.

[mezorn26]

On the camera, but that's just my personal preference.

You must be at some bright receptions. I'm typically at +1 when I am shooting TTL at receptions.


Huh? I'm a little confused? When the ambient light is low, and the meter on the camera is calculating based upon that, but your flash will bring in a lot more light, would not lowering the FEC -1.5 increase the shutter speed in preparation for the flash?

Am I missing something?

[jamiewexler]

Nope - FEC has no effect whatsoever on SS, only on the output of the flash. When you use an ETTL flash, you camera takes two meter readings: one when you half press the shutter (for ambient) and one when the preflash fires (for flash exposure).

The SS that the camera chooses is completely dependent on the mode that you choose, and the ambient reading.

In a dark reception hall:
P - will set a minimum exposure and rely on the flash to do the rest. Exposure is usually 1/60 f4 IME.
AV - will choose a SS based on the correct ambient exposure - even if the SS is 1/4. When you turn an ETTL flash on, it will pick a SS that underexposes the ambient by one stop. The flash will then act as fill. Using this setting in a dark reception hall will likely result in a LOT of blurry photos with crappy orange light.
TV - will choose an aperture based on the correct ambient exposure. If you are using an f2.8 lens, it can't get any wider so it will stop there. The flash will act as fill. If the room is dark enough, you should be able to get away with it, but YMMV
M - will go with the aperture and SS that you choose and rely on the flash to do the rest.

In none of those instances will the FEC change the ambient exposure settings.

Here's how I use FEC in receptions:
Camera in M mode with exposure appropriate to the scene (usually 2 1/3 stops under). Fire the flash, chimp the histogram, if more or less flash is needed, adjust the FEC. Repeat as necessary...

[notapro]

I think I'm missing a lot, so I just want to hear what others are saying. Thanks for asking this.

EDIT: Okay, i do the same thing Jamie does.... although I don't think it's working quite as well for me. ;)

[mezorn26]

Nope - FEC has no effect whatsoever on SS, only on the output of the flash. When you use an ETTL flash, you camera takes two meter readings: one when you half press the shutter (for ambient) and one when the preflash fires (for flash exposure).

The SS that the camera chooses is completely dependent on the mode that you choose, and the ambient reading.

In a dark reception hall:
P - will set a minimum exposure and rely on the flash to do the rest. Exposure is usually 1/60 f4 IME.
AV - will choose a SS based on the correct ambient exposure - even if the SS is 1/4. When you turn an ETTL flash on, it will pick a SS that underexposes the ambient by one stop. The flash will then act as fill. Using this setting in a dark reception hall will likely result in a LOT of blurry photos with crappy orange light.
TV - will choose an aperture based on the correct ambient exposure. If you are using an f2.8 lens, it can't get any wider so it will stop there. The flash will act as fill. If the room is dark enough, you should be able to get away with it, but YMMV
M - will go with the aperture and SS that you choose and rely on the flash to do the rest.

In none of those instances will the FEC change the ambient exposure settings.

Here's how I use FEC in receptions:
Camera in M mode with exposure appropriate to the scene (usually 2 1/3 stops under). Fire the flash, chimp the histogram, if more or less flash is needed, adjust the FEC. Repeat as necessary...



So in other words, you shoot in M and roll back the SS a little bit to compensate for the flash that will fire?

[jamiewexler]

Not exactly. SS has no effect on flash exposure whatsoever.

Try this experiment. Set your flash and camera to M, shoot it at a stuffed animal, and find the correct combination of SS and aperture to correctly light the animal. Then change the SS leaving the aperture as is. You will see that the flash exposure on the animal does not change. The ambient light levels around the animal will change, but the flash exposure will remain constant.

When I use flash, I don't change the ambient exposure settings to compensate for light that is put out by the flash. That is controlled by the flash metering system, and I adjust it by only using FEC.

I DO adjust my SS to control the amount of ambient light that is present in the scene. If I want to bring more ambient light into the background, I lower my SS - if I want to reduce background distractions, I raise my SS. In both cases the flash exposure on my subject remains constant...as long as they are the same distance from me, and filling the same portion of the frame...

[Wedding Shooter]

Flash is for a micro second - so SS has nothing to do with it. Like Jamie said.

[mezorn26]

Flash is for a micro second - so SS has nothing to do with it. Like Jamie said.


well, then my real issue is with the fact that even at 1000 iso at my last shoot I was only getting decent exposures at 1/15, which is too slow, and that was at 2.8...

So what to do ?

[Curtis N]

How do you set your FEC during the receptions? Through the flash, or through the camera?Do whatever is easiest for you. With your 40D you can do it without removing your eye from the viewfinder if you know where the buttons are. With your XTi it's probably easier to adjust it on the flash than dig through the camera menu.

When using flash, you need to think about the ambient exposure and the flash exposure separately. It's important to know how to manage both. You would probably benefit from some of the flash articles in this thread (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=138907), as well as The EOS Flash Bible (link in my sig).

[Wedding Shooter]

Set an ambient you are happy with and then manually adjust your flash to an output that is getting you results. Just try it - you will be pleasently surprised.

[mezorn26]

Set an ambient you are happy with and then manually adjust your flash to an output that is getting you results. Just try it - you will be pleasently surprised.


I'm embarrassed:o:o:o to say this, but I have no clue how to do that. As I said in a previous thread, I have ZERO experience in flash photography, and tons without flash

[Jonny]

I Use the FEC on camera as it is a pain on the Metz to change it at speed

I just had a weird thought though. Would +1 on camera and -1 on flash at the same time cancel each other out or does one setting overide the other?

Back on topic, if you are shooting iso 1000 with 1/15 at 2.8 then i guess your flash is not helping because you are shooting in a large area which the flash cannot fill.
Your flash behavior is also dependant on your shooting mode.

[jamiewexler]

Back on topic, if you are shooting iso 1000 with 1/15 at 2.8 then i guess your flash is not helping because you are shooting in a large area which the flash cannot fill.
Your flash behavior is also dependant on your shooting mode.

Not sure I understand this. The OP didn't mention the size of the venue - and it shouldn't really matter. As long as the people you are trying to light are within the range of the flash, the size of the room should have very little to do with it.

[mezorn26]

Not sure I understand this. The OP didn't mention the size of the venue - and it shouldn't really matter. As long as the people you are trying to light are within the range of the flash, the size of the room should have very little to do with it.


Agreed

Again though, my issue still is, my last event (which was is a small venue) I was at 1000 ISO in AV at 2.8 and was getting roughly 1/15, which is too slow for the reception as the subjects are moving quite a bit. I then switched to M and dialed up the shutter speed a little bit, but it seems like a band aid.

how do I address this?

[notapro]

Agreed

Again though, my issue still is, my last event (which was is a small venue) I was at 1000 ISO in AV at 2.8 and was getting roughly 1/15, which is too slow for the reception as the subjects are moving quite a bit. I then switched to M and dialed up the shutter speed a little bit, but it seems like a band aid.

how do I address this?

stupid question..... you were using flash?

[mezorn26]

stupid question..... you were using flash?


Yes....

[jamiewexler]

Aha - that's an easy one...don't shoot in AV at receptions!

in AV mode the camera will choose a SS that gives you the correct ambient exposure - no matter how slow the SS. Since people tend to move pretty fast during receptions, this will lead to blurry photos.

Change to M mode, and you control the SS and aperture. The flash will expose for the scene, no matter what the ambient exposure is - it doesn't care. Then choose a SS that gives you a good mix between the ambient light and the light from your flash, and you are golden.

AGAIN - they key is to realize that ambient exposure and flash exposure are two different things, and calculated by the camera separately.

SS and Aperture make up your ambient exposure

the ETTL Pre-flash determines your flash exposure

It's a bit of a simplification, since there are other factors involved, but at the level of learning you are currently at, think of them as two separate entities with one having NO EFFECT on the other.

[mezorn26]

Aha - that's an easy one...don't shoot in AV at receptions!

in AV mode the camera will choose a SS that gives you the correct ambient exposure - no matter how slow the SS. Since people tend to move pretty fast during receptions, this will lead to blurry photos.

Change to M mode, and you control the SS and aperture. The flash will expose for the scene, no matter what the ambient exposure is - it doesn't care. Then choose a SS that gives you a good mix between the ambient light and the light from your flash, and you are golden.


That's what I figured, and said in in an earlier post. I essentially, put it in M, and dial up my SS in anticipation of my flash. As the meter is only reading ambient light, and not expecting the flash. Does that sound right?

[Wedding Shooter]

I'm embarrassed:o:o:o to say this, but I have no clue how to do that. As I said in a previous thread, I have ZERO experience in flash photography, and tons without flash

What you want to do is set an ambient exposure that is going to give you a reasonable shutter speed - don't worry if the camera tells you this is going to be underexposed. A good starting point is around 1/80th sec at your largest aperture or slightly smaller (say no smaller than f4 or f5.6 if you have a lot of light).

If it is dark shoot at ISO 1600. If it is so so shoot at ISO 800. If it is reasonable bright you might try ISO 400 (although this is not usual at a reception). You have to get a feel for this - experiment at home.

This is to set the ambient light - the exposure for everything not lit by the flash. As Jamie says - you can also adjust your shutter speed to influence the ambient light on the fly as it won't affect your flash exposure.

Than start off by setting your manual flash to about 1/4 and bounce your flash off the ceiling. Amount of power needed will vary depending on how high the ceiling is, how far away the person you are shooting is and how powerful your flash is (I use a 580EX II with the Canon battery pack).

Just be aware how close you are to the subject - if you vary distance greatly you will need to adjust your flash output.

I used to get really bad photos at receptions - now they are almost always great. Playing with your ambient and manual flash will give you a lot more creative ways to shoot.

A couple of examples from my latest weddings - nothing great, but will give you an idea as to what is possible.

[notapro]

That's what I figured, and said in in an earlier post. I essentially, put it in M, and dial up my SS in anticipation of my flash. As the meter is only reading ambient light, and not expecting the flash. Does that sound right?

I'm pretty new, but here's what's worked for me with my itty bitty amount of knowledge:

I just learned to use E-TTL, but this is how I do it:

I spot meter for the background/ambient light (I just use spot meter a lot, or maybe I would use something else). Set the exposure in M so that it is just a little underexposed usually - maybe 1.3 stops

Don't use FEC at all - take a shot. The flash calculates how to bring the subject up to a proper exposure.

I chimp. If I need to I adjust FEC.

[mezorn26]

I'm pretty new, but here's what's worked for me with my itty bitty amount of knowledge:

I just learned to use E-TTL, but this is how I do it:

I spot meter for the background/ambient light (I just use spot meter a lot, or maybe I would use something else). Set the exposure in M so that it is just a little underexposed usually - maybe 1.3 stops

Don't use FEC at all - take a shot. The flash calculates how to bring the subject up to a proper exposure.

I chimp. If I need to I adjust FEC.


CHIMP?

[Wedding Shooter]

Chimp - look at your LCD to see what your photo looks like.

[Big Mike]

I think you are worrying too much about perfectly exposing the background. Don't worry if the background is underexposed a few stops. Of course, you don't want it to be pitch black either...but here is where you need to find a happy balance between ambient exposure, acceptable shutter speed and acceptable ISO/noise levels. The important part is that the subjects are exposed correctly...which is still fairly subjective.

A bit of practice, as Jamie mentioned, can really help to understand all of this.

[Jonny]

Not sure I understand this. The OP didn't mention the size of the venue - and it shouldn't really matter. As long as the people you are trying to light are within the range of the flash, the size of the room should have very little to do with it.

I think you put it better than i did.
I meant if the room was big and the subjects were far away. Obviously if it were a small room they would be in range.
The subject didn't state the size of the venue so i was trying guess what would cause underexposure with flash - fall off. But a longer SS would help him because of ambient light.

Sometimes i know what i mean in my own head but struggle to get my point across. If you still do not understand then i an afraid you will need to take a course in jibberish to fully grasp my thoughts!

[tim]

I think someone needs to read "Understanding Exposure" (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FUnderstandi ng-Exposure-Photographs-Digital-Updated%2Fdp%2F0817463003%2Fsr%3D1-1%2Fqid%3D1162514439%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26tag 2%3Dheadphonerevi-20&tag=headphonerevi-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)...

[notapro]

I think someone needs to read "Understanding Exposure" (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FUnderstandi ng-Exposure-Photographs-Digital-Updated%2Fdp%2F0817463003%2Fsr%3D1-1%2Fqid%3D1162514439%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26tag 2%3Dheadphonerevi-20&tag=headphonerevi-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)...

Assuming a basic understanding of exposure, is that book helpful for flash exposure particularly?

[tim]

Assuming a basic understanding of exposure, is that book helpful for flash exposure particularly?

It covers flash photography, I haven't read it but it seems to be the textbook for exposure in general.

[cloose]

Do whatever is easiest for you. With your 40D you can do it without removing your eye from the viewfinder if you know where the buttons are. With your XTi it's probably easier to adjust it on the flash than dig through the camera menu.

When using flash, you need to think about the ambient exposure and the flash exposure separately. It's important to know how to manage both. You would probably benefit from some of the flash articles in this thread (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=138907), as well as The EOS Flash Bible (link in my sig).

On the XTi, you can use CF's to move FEC to the set button, so you can adjust rapidly by hitting set, then using the toggles.

[Jon Rouston]

I love the fact you're all talking about FEC, it sounds like an episode of Father Ted