Question for the Pro's about public events. (A little long)

[Vinny454]

I have to describe the circumstances before I ask the question.

You are at a public event for show animals. Of course anyone can take all the pictures they want. Now the show organizer rents the venue which can be space in a campground, park, indoor arena or combo of both, but all are public property's usually Municipally owned. They also rent out space to vendors and of course a show photograher. Now they have a contract with this show photograher that he must be the only official photograher contracted by the show. He gets to use the official show plaque in his shots and the judges will only pose for pictures with the winners if he is shooting them.

Now, I alway's bring my camera to take shots of my wife in the show ring, as do many others. I have always taken good movement shots of the animals, but this weekend I was using my new 10D and 70-200 L and I printed out some pic's for some friends as a favour. They started showing them to their friends and now I am having people ask me to shoot them in the ring and they will pay me for the prints.

The official photograher's for these shows have portable studio's and only take still shots 99.9% of the time. If you ask them to do movement shots, they will only consider it at the end of the day and if they are in the mood. the show people don't want to wait that long as most are done a lot earlier in the day (note: none of them are very good at it as they are mostly portrait style photgrahers, which is why they very rarely get asked to do it). I in no way want to start taking the still shots with the judge and taking away the show phtograhers business, but at the same time people are asking me to provide a service at there quality expectations and their convenience.

The show is not hiring me, advertising my services or in any way promoting my services as they do for the official photoghrahers. I am not renting a booth and taking away from his business. I am providing a service they basically do not.

My ultimate question is this. I have only done this for a couple of clients as of now. However, if it becomes more regular and the official photgrahers find out, where do I stand from a legal stand point? I personally do not see them having any grounds for complaints if I am providing a different photograhy service than they are and again only as a "if you ask me I will do it for you" sevice.

Any help or advice will be appreciated.

Vince

[unners]

You are at a public event for show animals. Now, I alway's bring my camera to take shots of my wife in the show ring, as do many others. Vince
firstly i am concerned that your wife is in an animal show, and many others are taking pictures of her :D

secondly, i am not a professional event photographer although i have been the official photographer at a number of events. i would say that by far the best thing to do is to contact the show organisers. tell them what u have told us. they may or may not have a exclusive contract with the official photographer. if they do then the photographer can ask u to stop taking pictures but if u are not competing with their market then i don't think they will. contacting the organiser's first will give u a leg to stand on if questioned by the official photographer.
hope this helps
all the best
dave

[defordphoto]

Removed by RFMSports

[Aylwin]

If the event allows for people to take photographs then, technically, I don't think you're doing anything wrong. I agree though that checking beforehand with the event organizers (even if just as a courtesy) is best.

In my opinion, what keeps you in the clear is this: you are taking specific photos for specific people in the event. It's kinda like the participants bringing along 'ol Uncle Vince to take their photos (except you get paid... shhhh... ;)). Besides, as you say, the types of photos you are taking are not in conflict with what the official photographer takes.

However, if you were to simply take photos of everyone and then try to sell the prints later then I don't think the designated pro would be too happy about that. I believe that would definitely be a conlflict there.

By the way, I'm no pro. Just my 0.2 cents.

[cmM]

My opinion:
It depends a lot on the contract the official photographer signed with the show organizers. If that contract states that he/she has exclusive photography rights, then I don't think you can take pictures and sell them.
If not, you can take pics and do whatever with them (sell). As for the photographer, he/she shouldn't mind competition. Let the best photographer make more money.

Good luck

[robertwgross]

Approach the show organizer and try to make a deal for your services to be present. If the original photographer's agreement is ironclad that he is the sole photographer, then you probably won't make much progress. However, it might also cause the show organizer to think twice before they extend the original photographer's agreement in the future if they see that there are other photographers around.

I mean, this is a competitive world.

---Bob Gross---

[Vinny454]

firstly i am concerned that your wife is in an animal show, and many others are taking pictures of her :D
She shows dog's, so when they call in the open B***H's, I still question who they are calling in :D

Jim: No we do not buy tickets. We pay for the dog entries as we are exhibitors. The general public does pay for entry, but there are no tickets per say. They do not post any ban's on photoghraphy as they encourage photography. Most exhibitors are either professional handlers, or like my self, registered breeders and we are putting titles on our dog's. The pic's that are being taking are for Ad's, portfolio's, scrap books, web site's etc.

In my opinion, what keeps you in the clear is this: you are taking specific photos for specific people in the event. It's kinda like the participants bringing along 'ol Uncle Vince to take their photos (except you get paid... shhhh... ). Besides, as you say, the types of photos you are taking are not in conflict with what the official photographer takes.


That's what my thinking is as well. Usually even friends pay me for the cost of materials as they know that good paper and ink is expensive. Now it's just some other breeder's have been asking and I am only charging a modest amount above cost as it not a big market, yet.

One more note. Many times I will take the "client" either off the show grounds to an adjacent park or field and take the photo's when possible, but some want the pic's while they are in the actual show ring.

I will contact the show organizers and see if I can maybe get a copy of the contract and look it over for my self.

Vince

[Mitch]

If you go to public event and the event sponsors or whoever is in authority for the venue have an exclusive contract with some other party to photograph the event, that contract alone has no authority over you. Simple contract law. You weren't part of that contract. The photographers that do have the exclusive contract have no authority over you. Their only right is to go to the event sponsors and assert their exclusivity and demand that the sponsors excercise what ever auhority they have over you to prohibit you from doing what they (the photographers) have exclusively contracted for. If local law allows you to photograph at this public event, then the photographers have contracted with terms that were not enforceable pursuant to local law. Parties to a contract can only promise to do what they have legal authority/rights to do. Just cause it's in a civil contract, doesn't make it law necessarily.

[Vinny454]

Thank you Mitch. That was the clarity I was looking for. That is what I had assumed but was hoping that someone else had insight into it.

Although as a courtesy, I will still look into the matter to see if it will piss them off or not, which I don't feel it should.

Vince

[defordphoto]

We have a lawyer in the house! ;)

But yes, as a courtesy, especially since you are also showing, I'd let them know what you're doing.

[Vinny454]

Thanks for all the help and advice everyone.

Vince

[defordphoto]

Thanks for all the help and advice everyone.

Vince

So let us know how it goes with your people. We'll need an "end" to this story so we can all at some time say:

I know this guy who was shooting bitches and this is what he had to do.

Or something like that... ;)

[mjordan]

I have been shooting at dog shows for the last, oh, 6 or 7 years. I shoot at specialties, national, regional and local dog shows. From agility, herding, conformation, obiedience, etc. You name it, if there is a dog show in the area, I try to shoot at it. I don't shoot winning dog pictures (too much work), I shoot the action in the rings and around the show grounds. I've been doing this across the country (form Oregon to Wash D.C. and a lot of states in between, including Calf., Arizona, etc. I have a big show in Oct in Colorado Springs that I will be shooting at. I make money at this. I'm not getting rich, but it justifies my equipment (I wish I could justify a MK II). In all the years, all the states and all the shows, I have never never had a problem with the venue, show photographer(s) or vendor photographers. In fact a number of occaions, I have actually helped and worked with some of the show photographers and vendor shooters. If we are working the same rings or near each other, I always tell them that if I get in their way, just let me know and I'll move. And most of the time they do the same for me.

I do not sell pictures on the show ground though. And mostly I'm shooting a few specific breeds that have people showing that we know. I give out a business card or let the clubs know that the pictures will be on my web site. I find out who the newsletter editors are and I send them pictures and they put my name and web site for the photo credits. Over the years I have become the Offical photographer for the American Bouvier des Flandres club, as well as a known shooter for several other breeds. If you want to make money at this, the best way is to get your name known. Once it's known, they will come to you. Get the images up on a web site fast so they can see them right after the show and buy while the excitment is still there (although I've been selling colleges and images from the St. Louis Bouvier Specialty show I shot at last Oct up until a month ago).

When I'm shooting, I have a 10D with one of 3 lenses around my neck and my wife has my D30 with the 70-200 4.0L on it. When we are shooting at the same ring, you can bet we get noticed. But we have never had a problem. In fact, sometimes it's hard to shoot because of all the questions I get asked. :lol:

A couple of tips (more like very strong advice) never do anything that will distract the dogs showing... learn how to be invisible as you move around the ring (or better yet, find a good shooting spot and don't move). If a dog sees you moving, freeze until they move by or look the other way. If they start to pay attention to you while you are shooting, turn your back to them and don't move or slowly move away from the fence. Never stare at one of the dogs. Never use flash in a real show, even if they allow it. Again, this can distract the dog(s). If you don't have a fast lens, either put up with what you can get or don't bother taking pictures. Even with a 85mm 1.8, and my 24-70 2.8L and 70-200 2.8L IS, it's not fast enough in some of the arenas and barns where they hold some of the indoor shows. I have to time my shots real careful to get the least amount of movement. Usually these will be ok on the web or for a newsletter, but not for blowing up into a print.

If you start shooting agility or herding, LEARN about those activities before you start shooting a lot. The only time I have ever been yelled at was the first Austraian Sheppard Sheep trial. I moved up to a corner fence well way from the activity, but it was still to close to the guy working his dog. It was a valid point as another (more polite guy) explained to me that the sheep will go to any human they see to get away from the dog. They could have very well seen me and gone to my corner, ruining it for the dog trying to get points. I've never been yelled at since. :lol: The best thing to do is ask the judge where you can shoot from. If they know you know how to be indiscrit and invisible, they will let you shoot up against the inner fence. Sometimes they won't. Even if the judge says it's ok, the person running their dog has the final say so. Once people get to know you, they will even invite you into the ring. I did 3 days of ring sport with some semi-trained, large mouth dogs with very strong bites, and when they invited me out into the field to get closer shots, I politely declined and said my lens was too long to work close in. :lol: After seeing those dogs chew up the lure in the full body suit, there was no way I was getting close enough to use my 24-70L.

A lot of it is common scense. It can be a lot of fun... or boring like I think conformation is. And it can be rewarding, both montarily and in providing pictures for people that rarely get them while they are working in the ring. If you have any questions, just ask.

Mike

[mjordan]

Jim, dog people are the only people I've seen that can really say bitch a bunch of times in a normal conversation, with kids around, and nobody blinks. Well, except me. After all the years being around dog people, I'm still not use to it. And it's almost as bad having to stand around in the women's underwear department while my wife buys those things as it is when she's in a store or other public place and runs into another dog person and they start talking about who's bitch did what or which bitch won at the last show... etc. where those around us (non-dog people) can hear. I just kind of slide away and pretend I'm a window washer or something. :lol: :lol:

Mike

[Vinny454]

Mike,

You are a man that certainly knows about the dog showing world. Basically what you describe is what I am doing, except up till lately I have only being shooting for friends. You are right on the lighting in some arena's. However it is even more of a problem for me as the people who ask me for pic's usually want a side gaiting shot as they are moving in the ring. My wife breeds/shows Siberian Huskies and that has been mostly what I have been shooting and trust me they fly around the ring so trying to "freeze" a Sibe in full extension is a chore (thank you AIservo). I am quickly learning to pan pretty decently.

http://www.sherakan.com/Sherakan/Sherakan'sI'mOnMyWay/ShaniaPicturePedigree.htm

Samples of the gaiting pic's I am shooting. Most of the other shot's on the website are my pre DSLR days and taken with a P&S digital.

Note: I mentioned about the show photographers quality being questionable. The top pic with the judge is his. The bottom pic's on the above page were taken by me on Sat with a 10D and a 70-200 F4 L, handheld and panning. The official photograher, just recently started shooting digital. He certainly needs a little more practice (my wife's suit in that pic is dark purple, but in reality, it is a light greyish purple). At least that one is sharp. You should see some of his others.

It can be a lot of fun... or boring like I think conformation is
My wife only shows in conformation and I gotta agree with you there(if she has conflict with our dog's I even sometimes get stuck showing). I used to hate going to the shows until I got a DSLR. Now I am meeting a lot of people, because you are right, they see a big lens and they want to talk to you.

I have to hide my face behind the camera if I am shooting my own dog's so they don't try running to me.

As a breeder/exhibitor, I don't think you ever get used to hearing the b***h word. I still laugh when we are out somewhere and my wife get's going about the dog's. Boy do heads turn trying to figure out who she is talking about :D . The pic's in the above link are of my 7 month old B***H Shania :lol: . Had to do it.

Thanks for a real life perspective, it helps a lot.

Vince[/url]

[defordphoto]

Jim, dog people are the only people I've seen that can really say bitch a bunch of times in a normal conversation, with kids around, and nobody blinks. Well, except me. After all the years being around dog people, I'm still not use to it. And it's almost as bad having to stand around in the women's underwear department while my wife buys those things as it is when she's in a store or other public place and runs into another dog person and they start talking about who's bitch did what or which bitch won at the last show... etc. where those around us (non-dog people) can hear. I just kind of slide away and pretend I'm a window washer or something. :lol: :lol:

Mike

ROFLMAO!

Yeah, I had a hard enough time typing it!

[Motorsports Photo]

Hey Vinny-

Did you figure it all out?

Here in the states if its a public event you can shoot all you want. Unless you are disruptive theres no reason you cant.

Now of course that other guy has his vendor fees and is ID'd as the official photographer, but that doesnt mean you can take pics and (gasp!) sell pictures either. (This may be different over the northern border)

I've been in the "official" position before and been on the "unofficial" end of the stick. Bottim line is if someone is allowed to shoot, they are allowed to sell. If the other guy wants to "enforce" his official status and if there is a legal precedent you might get a cease and desist out of it. For me I tried to bully the other guy and he just said "SO?"

I was at another event last month where I found out there WAS an "official" photographer. There had NEVER been one before, and I found out I was lied to about the other photographers "officialness" by the event organizer. Basically the other photographer got sold a "Brooklyn Bridge" (he paid for something that really couldnt be sold)

Have fun at the dog shows. Take lots of pictures for yourself at least, and if some others want copies, make a buck!

-Pete

[Vinny454]

I am still waiting for a response from one of the show organizers.

Basically I am going to go ahead and sell them if people want them, but I will try and be discreet about until I hear back.

Vinny

[Kenski]

It is eaiser to ask for forgivness then to ask for permission.....


That is what an old wise photographer told me..... He said that is how you get the good shot... Now, is that always the best thing to do, maybe no but sometimes bending the rules never hurts anything or anyone.

[defordphoto]

I am still waiting for a response from one of the show organizers.

Basically I am going to go ahead and sell them if people want them, but I will try and be discreet about until I hear back.

Vinny

You'll probably end up winning all these people over as the so-called official photographer's photos look pretty marginal.

[Vinny454]

I spoke to one of the organizers this evening. It may take a week or so to actually get my hands on a copy of the contract (her brothers girfriends sister, knows a guy who's dating a girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 flavours. One of those deals).

The reason the official photographers use such a strict contract is that they generally travel from show to show and there was a couple of incidents where local "walmart" studio photograpghers rented space at the show and started taking away business because people didn't want to wait. So it allows them exlusive photograher vendor booths at the show.

She also informed me that yes the judge and Club Logo can only be used in his pic's but I can take all the pic's I want and sell them. I just am not supposed to sell them on the grounds that they rent (she didn't forsee any issues as my pic's are not the same type of pic's they are selling), because of this clause in the contract, but one never knows if his sales drop significantly.

I also travel to the shows and usually camp in a 27 Ft fifth wheel trailer. She quitely informed me that if I invited clients to my trailer and made all the sales there, there is nothing anyone can say as the 100 Ft piece of grass that my trailer is on, is rented by me and not the show, so therefore is not under any contractual restrictions that may or may not be legally enforced by the contract :D.

Jim: I think that is closure and you are right. His pic's are marginal at best. Not that mine are perfect, but I have been at this less than a year and he has been a Pro Photoghrapher for over 30 years.

Thanks everyone for the great advice and help.

Vince

[eos10dmacosx]

It was only last week that I was watching my daughter represent at Sport State level in a team event. I was taking photos of her and the team (with permission from the other parents) when I was approached by the 'Official' photographer. Fortunately I was also standing with another parent - a Corporate Lawyer. I continued to click away (with one ear open) while my 'No Charge' Lawyer fielded the questions. Some of the responses I caught were that they 'Official Photographer' has a contract but that contract has no binding on me taking photos, that I am not part of that contract. The Sporting Particpation form that was signed by parents prior to the event not only did NOT include that we were not aloud to take photos, but more importantly also did NOT include that we give permission for an 'Official Photographer' to take photos and sell! (Not quite the words he used, but you get the gist).

The female photographer then left, but approx 10 minutes later again I was approached this time by a male photographer (stating the same as the first photographer). My No-Charge lawyer did not waste time explaining any legal stuff this time, simple just handed him his business card explained that this was now bordering on harassment and if he would like to discuss this further ring his office to make an appointment.

Note: Not one other person with a camera was approached, video or still. Though a white lense does stand out.

At the end of the event, I printed and gave each team member a momento, action shot of themselves. All parents noting that this shot and print quality was much better than the ones being sold (which were quite expensive).

[Motorsports Photo]

Some of the responses I caught were that they 'Official Photographer' has a contract but that contract has no binding on me taking photos, that I am not part of that contract. The Sporting Particpation form that was signed by parents prior to the event not only did NOT include that we were not aloud to take photos, but more importantly also did NOT include that we give permission for an 'Official Photographer' to take photos and sell! (Not quite the words he used, but you get the gist).


Ohhh, I LIKE that response! :D

That sounds like the proper legal way to tell someone to bug off.

Note: Not one other person with a camera was approached, video or still. Though a white lense does stand out.

Thats another reason why I dont typically use large white lenses. I don't have to worry about their mass, and how much they stick out.

-Pete

[defordphoto]

Vinny: Have fun shooting all these events in the future, Sounds like you'll be able to build a business of it.

[IndyJeff]

Vinny this would be a good time to approach the organizer and tell them that you want to do the action shots. Have a sit down with the "offical" photographer, the event director and see if you can all come to an agreement on them doing the "podium shots" and you get the action. Of course be expected to give a kick back, errrrr rebate to the organizer for the access.
You would be able to increase your sales because you would no longer have to be like a guy with a long coat and a inside flap full of watches, "Hey buddy, wanna buy a watch?" You could be out in the open and maybe even the organizer can promote your services to the participants.
BTW, nice touch with the onsite lawyer standing by.

Official photographer:"Hey you can't take pictures, we are the exclusive offical photographers"

Vinny: " Oh?" click, click click

Vinny's lawyer: "I am sorry sir, he can take pictures as any contract you have doesn't include or bind him to any agreement."

Offical photgrapher: "Who are you, his lawyer?"

Vinny's lawyer: "I am today. My card!"

[Vinny454]

You guy's are real good :lol:

I love it.

Vince

[theoldmoose]

Yeah, the Joe Louis Arena (where the hockey team plays) in Detroit has a sign that says, "No lenses longer than 12 inches."

For real.

Gotta' love that 70-300mm DO IS... :lol:

[lllbarn]

Hi
Just joined, I was searching for photography legal advice and came across this web. I have question and comment, hoping you guys/gals can help me out more.

My husband drives a stock car at a local race track. The track is located at the fairgrounds, it is a public event and anyone who purchases a ticket can get in. There are NO signs stating anything about photographing the cars. There is a no video taping sign in the main grandstands. I am always in the pit area.

Anyway for the past two years I have been taking photos of MY car as well as other in the class and racing photos-ones that include group action/competition. I print most of my photos through an on line site I up load from my NEW Digital XT . I have my albums available to friends etc. IF a friend or viewer of the albums wanted to become a site member etc they could then purchase the photos. I get nothing. The track photographer freaked out that I was selling my photos for a profit and was hurting her business. The photos that were available when this happened where maybe 50 and 11 of those were of cars not of my own. When the track photographer approached me, I had already be "warned" by a track person I was in trouble, I told her that if it was such a problem to her, she could have called me and I would have taken them down right away. That she did not have to have a tanturm to the event holders, racers etc.

Anyway, I have continued to take photos. I keep them to my self. I do not and never have sold any of them.

NOW she wants to give me rolls of film and have me shoot for her. She says she will give me recognition. WHAT?

Glad I went digitial!

Are therer specific laws is regards to photos taken for personal use at a public event on public grounds?

Thank You sorry so long.
Lauri

[Ocean Blue]

If you go to public event and the event sponsors or whoever is in authority for the venue have an exclusive contract with some other party to photograph the event, that contract alone has no authority over you. Simple contract law. You weren't part of that contract. The photographers that do have the exclusive contract have no authority over you. Their only right is to go to the event sponsors and assert their exclusivity and demand that the sponsors excercise what ever auhority they have over you to prohibit you from doing what they (the photographers) have exclusively contracted for. If local law allows you to photograph at this public event, then the photographers have contracted with terms that were not enforceable pursuant to local law. Parties to a contract can only promise to do what they have legal authority/rights to do. Just cause it's in a civil contract, doesn't make it law necessarily.

I see you're in Canada, but this general principle in the US stems from common law of licenses and so may be applicable. Keep in mind that a ticket for a public event can be revoked at the option of folks issuing those tickets. For example, at a concert or sporting event, a ticket is a revokable right to to enter / attend that may be taken away at any time. For a non-ticket event, property owners can of course ask you to leave the grounds. Of course, this isn't advice just some guidence.

[Tundrasport]

Just the kind of thread I have been looking for! I have a couple of questions and I am wondering how others handle it. I'm looking into taking photos at the local dog parks (public places) and posting them on a website for sale. I know there is a market because I have already done this with a CP-330 battery operated printer and sold over 30 photos in one day right out of the camera at the park. If I want to put them on the web for sale do I need to have releases signed? I would think so if the owners are in the photo and recognizable, but what about the dogs? Do I need a release for them too? I also like to do this at the local RC airplane parks. Do I need releases for photos of the planes, the people flying them, spectators? Thanks!

[Jon]

For the dogs and/or model aircraft you'd need what's called a "property release", similar to a model release but when the subject is an individual's property.

[Tundrasport]

Thanks Jon! These people are all pretty fired up about their dogs and toys (kinda like people on here!) so I don't see much problem with them honoring a request to grant their permission! (as opossed to saying "sign here") Thanks again!

[mjordan]

No, you do not need a release for dog shots, nor of people taken at public events like this. Any event that is open to the public, where no expectation of privacy exists, you do not need permission from the people, animals or objects that you are taking pictures of. The newspeople, movie and tv people use this same law here in the US to take and show their pictures and video without getting a release. Of course, being the US, anyone has the right to sue anyone else over almost anything as well... even if they don't win and you are perfectly within your right, it could cost you money to prove that. So some common sense has to be applied. And there are people that will try to intimadate you this way as well. Although, in all of the years I've been doing event stuff, I've only been asked about my taking pictures a couple of times out of curiousity.

You will find that most of the people that have a problem with others taking pictures with equipment that looks like the person using it is a professional, is other professional photographers. Most of the people that go to these events and particapate in them are use to seeing people with cameras all over the place taking pictures. Most don't even pay attention, other than occasionally someone with stand up straighter or suck in a gut. :D

One thing too, I never intentionally try to take pictures that will show someone in a bad way. Like someone tripping and falling or walking around looking drunk or anything like that. And if I do get any like that, I never put them up on my web site for others to see. I've always honored any request for someone's picture not to be shown as well. I'll ask them why if it's a good picture, but I won't argue with them about it or show it anyway.

Also, keep in mind that selling images to people at events like this is different than taking pictures and using them to create a commercial product, like a calendar, note cards, putting them on a stock agency site, etc. That gets into a different area of legality and you will want to talk to a good IP lawyer if that is what you have in mind. It never hurts to talk to one anyway, although they can only give you advice and their interpretation of the laws and what has gone before in the courts... even if you do pay a lot for it. :D

But as long as you are at an event open to the public or are shooting from a public location, you should be ok.

Mike

[mrklaw]

I read all these comments about 'public' places.

What about if you have to buy a ticket for entry? Won't those tickets have terms and conditions attached?

I'm wondering if for example I can sell (or at least attempt to sell) motorsports shots. I have to buy a ticket to get in, and there are accredited photographers there. There are also complex issues like who owns the rights - there is the ground, the organisation running the particular race (eg FIA, TOCA) etc.

Is the basic rule still - if they allow you to shoot, you can sell, or is it different for organised events?

[Tundrasport]

Well now I don't feel to bad for being confused. It looks like it will be worth the time and money to talk with a lawyer (their time.....my money :p ) Any suggestions on how to find one?

[mspringfield]

I understand the confusion. As a frelance photographer who works for event companies the legalities get really strange. This is my understanding of the "rights and ownerships" of photos. The sponsors of an event own the rights to photos taken at the event. They can choose to give/sell those rights to an official event photographer who can in turn sell the photos. I as the photographer actually own the photos and give the rights to sell to the event photographer in return for compensation.

The event photographer cannot deny a parent the right to take photos of their own child. However if you take photos and then try to sell them you can get a "cease and desist" from the event organizer (the actual owner of the rights of the photo) not the "official photographer". If you are approached by a representative of the event, not the official photographer, and told that you must stop photographing then and only them must you stop. Think about why you can't bring a camera to concert and snap away. Many organizers head this off a the pass, so to speak, by checking bags at the door and not even letting cameras in.

It is a very tough situation and a gray area. I have seen a "cease and desist" order sent to a photographer by an event sponsor for doing just what I described.

Most of the time when I am shooting an event I really don't care if someone else is taking pictures of their kids as long as they don't get in my way. Especially if they come up and talk to me before they start shooting their kid. Call it "professional courtesy". I have had people tossed from an event for doing just that. One "parent", who was a professional wedding and childrens photographer, saw me later and approached me at another event and basically said, "hey, I remember you. You are the guy who got me kicked out of event "xyz". I admitted that I was and asked him what he would do if I came to one of his weddings with all of my pro gear and started shooting just because I was "a friend of the groom". He completely understood and now when I shoot an event that his kids are at he comes up and talks to me and shoots right beside me. No problems.

Basically my advise is similar to others. Talk to the event sponsor and as a professional courtesy talk to whoever is in charge of the event photography company. Who knows, they may even hire you to shoot for them. Especially if you are shooting a part of the event that they don't cover.

Sorry for the long post but this is a very touchy and complicated subject.
Michael

[mjordan]

If you have to buy a ticket to get into the event, then it's probably a private event and yes they can keep anyone from taking pictures except who they allow. It's when the event is open to the public that they can't stop you from taking pictures... although sometimes they try. Concerts, major sporting events (car racing, football, basketball, baseball, etc. are private events), and other events held on private property. If it's an event held at a public place, park, fairground (when you don't have to pay to enter), public sidewalks and roads, etc., probably won't give you any trouble.

A lot of it sometimes depends on how you go about it. I always try to be low key and considerate of the people at the event as well as any other photographers attending. There have been times I've even manned the camera of another professional when they had to be at two different sections of the event at the same time. I see a lot of the same photographers at the events I go to and we talk and compare notes and equipment.

Mike

[DPochmann]

A note of clarification (see Michael's post above): The event sponsor does not own the rights to any photos I shoot. Never has. Never will. They also have no control on my ability to sell my photos. They can, however, kick me out, so that is their true control over any competitors. - Deb--a lawyer and a photographer.

[Roddy]

Please remember that photographing these shows may be somebodys living, they have paid to photograph the show, paid staff and they also have bills to pay themselves.
All these comments of 'they should not be afraid of competition' is nonsense, the competition would have been in tendering for the event in the first place. Would you consider bringing your BBQ along and selling burgers infront of the burger wagon, or sitting outside a firm of lawyers giving free advice??
Or how about somebody comes to your office and sits at your desk, does your job and goes home with your money. But thats just daft, after all, you applied to do that job, went through the interview and was offered the job.
The bottom line is respect peoples livings, if you think you can do a better job, tell the organisers, they will not know otherwise and photograph the event legitimatley.

[S.Horton]

I've shot (too) many dog shows; lay low to avoid the show chair giving you a hard time. S/he has no legal angle to prevent you from doing the work.

Here's how to lay low in that venue:
1. No flash
2. No shooting while the pro is shooting
3. No prints at the show (unless it is outside in the parking lot)
4. No photog vest
5. No white lenses

If anyone asks, it is all work for 'friends'.

Ah, finally, you need f/2 or faster.

[cpurves]

I've shot (too) many dog shows; lay low to avoid the show chair giving you a hard time. -------- If anyone asks, it is all work for 'friends'.


So Sam, in other words, sneak in shoot the show, and snipe the business away from a professional that has paid to be in the venue, has proper insurance -- etc etc.

I am the type of dog show photographer that has been referred to in this post. I shoot winners photos, portraits, and ring candids. This business of mine feeds my family and pays my bills. Most of the time I don't have a problem with others shooting candids at a show. BUT I do reserve the right to approve them shooting at any show I have a contract with. I also require that they pay the same vendor fees that I pay. They should also have the same business insurance that we carry. It's only fair. If I have to pay to be there then so should my competitors.

There are times that another photographer can supply better shots than the official photographer. That's the nature of this business. BUT - I will put my composition, quality, abilities and product up against any other photographer and be competitive. I just cannot compete with wannabes who sell for the cost of their materials and no profit.

So please consider the impact you may be having on someone's livelyhood.

In another life I am an electrician. I do not go out and wire someone's house for my material costs cause I am a nice guy or a friend asked me to do it. Please do not come to my place of business (Dog Shows) with an unfair advantage and take my business away from me. As I stated in the second pargraph. I don't have a problem with competition as long as they compete on the same level as me. I've built my business on quality and customer service, that's why I get the contract.

Talk to the official photographer before the show starts. We are not ogres just a bunch of people making a living doing what we love.

Cheers
Chris
www.photos-now.ca (http://www.photos-now.ca)

[Jon, The Elder]

Talk to the official photographer before the show starts. We are not ogres just a bunch of people making a living doing what we love.

I agree whole heartedly. I shoot horse events and when there is a "contracted" photographer, I introduce myself and let him know that my efforts are not for sale on-site, and that I do not/will not be shooting the formal posed shots that he is contracted for. There are only a half dozen or so shooters in the horse event venues in my part of the state so there is seldom a conflict. Professionalism and courtesy go a long way.

[S.Horton]

We've been in both the horse and dog worlds. Dog people = Horse people sans money and, quite often, manners. So, in Horses, I would agree that talking to anyone is good form and good taste. Nobody there, ever, cares what I'm doing, and the white lenses are on, monopod, etc.

@pro photog on dogs: You're never a problem, but the show chairs any other bored semi-affiliated and naturally troubled show organizers can be a major PIA. Now when I was shooting, it definitely was stuff you don't take, and it is, really, for people who ask for private shoots because they know me or someone I know. (You darn well know how small a world that really is)

The upshot is that I never shot anything you shoot. What we do get is the moment they won the ribbon or BOB. So, no food left your table. Besides, AM photogs are just not as good, and you and I both know it. ;)

It does constantly amaze me how competitive photography really is. I did some pro sports work by request, and have already decided not to take it any longer because the fun of it just gets blown away. (Plus, if you broke the work down it turns out to be under min wage!)

The longer I shoot, the more I get approached, and it is always someone who is either trying to get something cheap, or, more often, free. The phrase "that camera takes really great photos" comes to mind. :D

Finally, when you imply a guy doing favors for no more than lunch money is sneaking around, I think that says more about you than me. Go find my posts about my local friends suffering in the biz, for example. I'm the opposite of what you guessed I am.

[S.Horton]

Please remember that photographing these shows may be somebodys living, they have paid to photograph the show, paid staff and they also have bills to pay themselves.
All these comments of 'they should not be afraid of competition' is nonsense, the competition would have been in tendering for the event in the first place. Would you consider bringing your BBQ along and selling burgers infront of the burger wagon, or sitting outside a firm of lawyers giving free advice??
Or how about somebody comes to your office and sits at your desk, does your job and goes home with your money. But thats just daft, after all, you applied to do that job, went through the interview and was offered the job.
The bottom line is respect peoples livings, if you think you can do a better job, tell the organisers, they will not know otherwise and photograph the event legitimatley.

I've been in business (consulting, sales) for a long time, so when I approaced photography I brought perceptions of market pricing and character from my childhood, when gold-leafed portraits were the rage, B/W mini home lab kits had just come out and Polaroids were new. At that time, the photographer was a respected member of the community. Those who did good work were very, very busy, and prices were high enough that if you got a portrait it became a proudly displayed keepsake. (Some still are in my home)

So, what happened?

I think that the consumer's perception of technology is making people believe that what you do is easy, and that they can do it themselves. When they fail, they assume that if they only had a better camera then they would get the shot. This is false, but it doesn't matter in the mind of the consumer. And, the consumer, quite often, does NOT print the photo.

I offer as evidence my own experiences with people comparing the Sony Alpha or a P&S with my results, in the field. Even when they see the difference, they still cling to the belief that my result, of course, is the camera. (Can't be the angle, location, timing, exposure..... nah, just can't be) And, if they print, they really do, truly, believe that if only they had a better printer, of course the result would be better. They'll validate that at CVS for themselves; they typically think that machine is just a whoop b*tt printer. They know nothing about color correction, sharpening, bla bla bla, and if they do know anything about PCs, they'll just say "oh, yeah, that can be done in Photoshop"........ Always, they think it is the gear/software/hardware which makes it so.

So, what to do?

One idea, if you have a good professional photog association with a solid budget, is to try to change this perception. How, I have no idea, but that's what the marketing people are for. ;)

In sales, one idea is to start micro-marketing and personalizing services in order to raise price. By way of example, the 'private' dog shoot. What those consumers really want is for you to pay personal attention to them and get some keeper shots that they know, from experience, they cannot get. How do you get such business? Show up, start shooting..... You'll know the prospect, because they will be polite and offer to pay you for your time. That puts you in the right place, right time, right product, so your price is not low. In particular, do the indoor shows because the customer's P&S gear is useless there.

Someone else on POTN said this first, I'm sure, but because I am also an AM chef, it bears repeating: Nobody ever said to me that the food was good because I have nice pots and pans. But, they will say, all the time, "that camera takes great photos!"

I am sorry that your businesses are suffering. There is no real reason for it in the results. One guess who convinced the consumer that results come from the camera.........................
.
.
.
Camera manufacturers did, to sell more gear.

[traceye]

Wow, put yourself in the official photographer's shoes. He or she's the one who brought their equipment, spent the money on accommodations and was booked to be there. They do this for a living - do you?

Shame on you - I hope one day that you do become an official photographer and that it's your only means of earning a living, at a dog show and I hope that 20 of your clones come and take your business away from you and then I'll be there to laugh when you can't pay the rent.

Just because you can buy and use a DSLR doesn't give anybody the right to tromp on somebody's else's means of earning a living "just because you can". How thoughtless and childish and yes, I am an event photographer and I NEVER would be so unethical and look for excuses to do so.

[strmrdr]

Wow, put yourself in the official photographer's shoes. He or she's the one who brought their equipment, spent the money on accommodations and was booked to be there. They do this for a living - do you?

Shame on you - I hope one day that you do become an official photographer and that it's your only means of earning a living, at a dog show and I hope that 20 of your clones come and take your business away from you and then I'll be there to laugh when you can't pay the rent.

Just because you can buy and use a DSLR doesn't give anybody the right to tromp on somebody's else's means of earning a living "just because you can". How thoughtless and childish and yes, I am an event photographer and I NEVER would be so unethical and look for excuses to do so.

No one owes someone else a living that they aren't contracted to provide one too.
If the company/person was properly serving the needs of his/her clients then there wouldn't be a need for the other persons service in the first place.
There is no need to ever feel bad about providing a service someone wants at a cost your comfortable with.
Stay on your toes and feed your clients what they want and you don't have too fear competition.

[cowpix]

No one owes someone else a living that they aren't contracted to provide one too.
If the company/person was properly serving the needs of his/her clients then there wouldn't be a need for the other persons service in the first place.
There is no need to ever feel bad about providing a service someone wants at a cost your comfortable with.
Stay on your toes and feed your clients what they want and you don't have too fear competition.

While in theory this is true, there are potential clients that are looking for something for nothing. This provides a market for the "poachers". The poachers generally market an inferior product at a low price for these bottom feeders.

Hopefully, this has little or no effect on your sales, because as a pro you should be delivering a superior product. However, at some events this can cut into your bottom line when clients opt for low cost over quality.

[bieber]

Wow, put yourself in the official photographer's shoes. He or she's the one who brought their equipment, spent the money on accommodations and was booked to be there. They do this for a living - do you?

Shame on you - I hope one day that you do become an official photographer and that it's your only means of earning a living, at a dog show and I hope that 20 of your clones come and take your business away from you and then I'll be there to laugh when you can't pay the rent.

Just because you can buy and use a DSLR doesn't give anybody the right to tromp on somebody's else's means of earning a living "just because you can". How thoughtless and childish and yes, I am an event photographer and I NEVER would be so unethical and look for excuses to do so.

Are you kidding? Have you ever heard of capitalism? The free market? Thankfully, no one in this country has a right to hold a job regardless of the fact that someone else could do it better. If WalMart decides to adopt a terrible business model, does K-Mart then owe it to them not to expand into any of the cities where the WalMart's inevitably start to fail? Of course not; that's how the system is supposed to work, in the favor of the consumers.