Portrait Lighting Question; Woman With Loose Skin On Neck

[TMR Design]

I need advice from those that have shot portraits of women that had some loose skin on their neck and jowl's where you really wanted to de-emphasize that and not have shadow in the wrinkles. I've seen pictures of this woman shot by other potographers and the photos are horribe because of the attention drawn to those areas by deep shadows.

I already know that I'll be using my large diffusion panel at very close range to create the largest, softest light source possible for the main, but I'm wondering what the best type of fill would be in this scenario.

For a portrait I would normally have my large fill umbrella just behind and above the lens' axis, so I'm thinking that the lower I get the fill to center it on my subject the better, and I'm also guessing that keeping the ratio (relative power levels of main to fill) as small as possible will help.

I hope I'm close in my thinking but by all means give me an idea of how you do it or your suggestions for how I should best shoot this portrait.

[airfrogusmc]

My advise shoot from high angle and try and keep the turkey neck area in shadow. If thats not possible try a soft fill close to camera and a low ratio maybe almost even. Good luck...

[fotodan]

Try having her hold small foamboard in her lap to help bounce light into neck area. Or you might try to soften shots abit to hide wrinkles.

[TMR Design]

Thanks guys,

From what you're both saying it would seem that having a low main to fill ratio, returning additional light under the chin to fill shadows, and assuming a slightly higher than normal camera position will do the trick.

[fotodan]

I know this will sound silly, but back in the 70's I had a guy show me how he shot all women to hid age spots, wrinkles and etc. He took 2 uv filters and broke the glass out of them, then used a peice of black nylon panty hose between them, would mount it to his lens. Softens the shots up very much like the old Doris Day shot you use to see.. I sometime do the same thing...:o

[Unity Gain]

I already know that I'll be using my large diffusion panel at very close range to create the largest, softest light source possible for the main, but I'm wondering what the best type of fill would be in this scenario.



Are you familiar with this reflector? My 60 year old Mom LOVES it.
http://www.lastolite.com/triflectormkii.php

All of the other advice in this thread is excellent. It's a combination of lighting, angle, and possibly lens filtration or post processing to work the magic on older women.

The previous idea of nylon over the lens is great...my old boss was a portrait photographer and he had great success with that trick. I use a B+W Softar 1 filter. It's expensive but works great.

Good luck with your photography

[fotodan]

I use the nylon trick all the time when doing special shots for the women to their husband thing..:oops:

[TMR Design]

I am familiar with that reflector and have seen it first hand. It's very nice but I hadn't considered getting one, as I didn't have the need for one yet.

I've never heard of that filter you mentioned so I'm going to look that one up now.

Thanks for your input.

I don't want to soften things too much in camera because I may want to swap out backgrounds and I want to make that process easy but I do recall Dean Collins showing how to make a diffusion filter that you place and position in front of the lens to selectively diffuse and soften areas. I think I'll watch that DVD again.

[TMR Design]

I use the nylon trick all the time when doing special shots for the women to their husband thing..:oops:

This shot was done with the nylon in the filter rims?

[TMR Design]

I just took a look at filters and that B+W Softar 1 is not cheap. I think for now I'll look for other alternatives unless I find I have more of a need and have a feel for what exactly I need.

[Unity Gain]

I just took a look at filters and that B+W Softar 1 is not cheap. I think for now I'll look for other alternatives unless I find I have more of a need and have a feel for what exactly I need.

Yeah...that filter is expensive. It hurt when I first bought it :)

Just wanted to give ya some options...so you know all the tricks available.

[fotodan]

[quote=TMR Design;4252352]This shot was done with the nylon in the filter rims?[/quote


Yes it was. I use it quite a bit, and very cheap, if it tears or snags, just cut another peice..

[TMR Design]

OK now I'm inspired to try some DIY softening/diffusion.

[Wilt]

Softars are superb and have a price to match. There are ready made filters that use black mesh or white mesh, in different sizes of mesh, from companies like Tiffen; as much as I avoid Tiffen, their mesh filters I would not mind because it matters not that there is any loss of contrast---that's what the mesh filters are intended to do! the mesh filters I have are Bronica set that go on my Bronica medium format lenses.

Apart from lighting or lens filters, there is also POSING...high shooting angle, with the portrait sitter raising their chins higher than their normal carriage.

[rhys]

Loose skin?
Peg it back with bulldog clips :p

Seriously, get her to turn so that the loose skin is stretched.

[TMR Design]

Rhys,

I was trying to be kind. There is no turning the head to tighten it up. That simply can't happen. This is a part of her appearance.

[TMR Design]

Softars are superb and have a price to match. There are ready made filters that use black mesh or white mesh, in different sizes of mesh, from companies like Tiffen; as much as I avoid Tiffen, their mesh filters I would not mind because it matters not that there is any loss of contrast---that's what the mesh filters are intended to do! the mesh filters I have are Bronica set that go on my Bronica medium format lenses.

Apart from lighting or lens filters, there is also POSING...high shooting angle, with the portrait sitter raising their chins higher than their normal carriage.

Thank you much Wilt. :D

[airfrogusmc]

When I had my blads I had a softar 1 pretty much attached to the 180 all the time when shooting women. Its a great soft filter. Better than anything else I've used.

[TMR Design]

Just out of curiousity, what is the difference between the Softar 1 and Softar 2?

[airfrogusmc]

Robert I always thought the 2 was too much anyway to much for me. The one just takes enough sharpness off that things like eyes are still sharp but it helps smoothing out skin. I always thought the 2 made things look out of focus.

[TMR Design]

Thanks. Now what is the difference between the B+W Softar filters for ~$200 and the B+W Soft Image filter for $33?

[airfrogusmc]

Thanks. Now what is the difference between the B+W Softar filters for ~$200 and the B+W Soft Image filter for $33?

My softar was a Hasselblad softar. I tried a bunch of different filters and the softar 1 gave me the results I liked the best. Just checked the price and its $267 at B&H. Well anyway that was the one I preferred.

[freebird]

In class I was taught to have subject looking generally towards lens and lean in just a little with shoulders and stick chin out very slightly forward and watch that turtle neck skin subside. Now with large amounts of skin this will be more difficult. I was quite surprised how well this worked.

Hope this helps

Chuck

[charger912]

TMR, here is a link to an article written by Rolando Gomez describing the black scarf technique that fotodan mentioned. I thought it may be helpfull to you.

http://glamour1.com/forums/view.php?pg=scarf

[Curtis N]

took 2 uv filters and broke the glass out of them, then used a peice of black nylon panty hose between them, would mount it to his lens. Softens the shots up very much like the old Doris Day shot you use to see..I'm sure there are plenty of softening techniques, but nowadays couldn't you accomplish something similar in Photoshop? What's more, with layers you can keep some areas sharp and other areas soft. It just seems like a much more practical and versatile way to go.

... but I'm just askin'.

[freebird]

Good point Curtis. Alot of selective softening and creativity using layers. This is a very interesting thread and idea using the scarf.

Chuck

[TMR Design]

Selective softening works well. I have done both sharpening and softening this way but I still have this thing about getting the shot right or darn close to it in camera and keeping the PP to a minimum.

I knew there were techniques used for lighting and posing and the softening filters look like a very nice solution and something I'll be trying before I resort to PP in Photoshop.

[airfrogusmc]

Another thing you could try along with the higher angle chin up and neck in shadow if possible try turning you soft box horz and straight over the camera/lens and a white reflector under the chin just out of view of the lens. That would give you VERY FLAT lighting.

[Wilt]

It would be interesting to compare [Softars and black net and white net over shooting lens *and also* net filter over enlarging lens], vs. the Photoshop filters...the results are quite different from each other in the traditional methods, and I wonder which is mimiced by postprocessing digitally.

[TMR Design]

I just did some grocery shopping and grabbed some black and beige hose. I couldn't find white but I'm going to experiment and devise some sort of holder or frame to stretch them out on and I'll be sure to let you know my findings.

[kuanyu]

I learned the pantyhose trick many many years ago and simply keep a small piece in my bag with a couple rubber bands. I use the rubber bands to hold the pantyhose on the lading edge of the lens, works great and is cheap

[Wilt]

I just did some grocery shopping and grabbed some black and beige hose. I couldn't find white but I'm going to experiment and device some sort of holder or frame to stretch them out on and I'll be sure to let you know my findings.


Hose is quite tight in the weave, compared to the soft net filters available. If you find the open mesh 'French tart' hoseiry, that provides a less dramatic (less objectionable, to many) effect.

[TMR Design]

Is there an equivalent material that I can get from a craft store?

[whitedog]

I need advice from those that have shot portraits of women that had some loose skin on their neck and jowl's where you really wanted to de-emphasize that and not have shadow in the wrinkles.
When you're done following the advice to get it right in camera, if it's still obvious, very easy to fix in PS using the Liquify tool. Let me know if you want further instruction on this.

Bob

[rhys]

I just did some grocery shopping and grabbed some black and beige hose. I couldn't find white but I'm going to experiment and devise some sort of holder or frame to stretch them out on and I'll be sure to let you know my findings.

I bet the tellers in the store were nudging each other going "aye aye... we got a right one here" when you produced half a dozen packs of fishnets with your beer :p

[whitedog]

I'm sure there are plenty of softening techniques, but nowadays couldn't you accomplish something similar in Photoshop? What's more, with layers you can keep some areas sharp and other areas soft. It just seems like a much more practical and versatile way to go.

... but I'm just askin'.
I agree....ALWAYS, in my opinion, shoot as sharp and in-focus as possible. You can accomplish virtually any soft focus technique in PS.

[LBaldwin]

Airfrog has the best answer. The bottom lit idea for me is not really too effective. My pref is to use negative fill under the chin instead, and shoot from a level at least 18" over the forehead hight of the subject. I too use fishnet or stockings to soften the image. There really is not a good electronic version of that look. The old 200 2.8 L A series lens was too sharp for most ladies so I constantly used that filter combo.

One good way to pose the subject for the reduction is the lean forward trick and have them tighten their chin and neck as much as possible. Forget any ideas of profile or sideways shots. Also think 3/4 instead of head and shoulders shots if possible. Shooting from the 3/4 allows for two shots in one image, just crop as tight as possible. In this case you do not need the most rez possible

Les

[Mark_48]

Besides the hose for diffusion, years ago I've tried various window screen materials, fine stainless steel mesh, and a copper mesh screen. All diffused and softened pretty well and each had a subtle characteristic it lent to an image.

Since digital photography and Photoshop came along I haven't used any of this stuff.

A good craft store such as Michaels or AC Moore should have a fair assortment of mesh type material similiar to hose in various colors.

[TMR Design]

I just did some tests with the black hose. It's far too dense and the softening, although kind of cool, is so excessive that it's not usable.

Now to try the beige and see if the density is more of an issue than the color, which I suspect it is.

[Wilt]

I just did some tests with the black hose. It's far too dense and the softening, although kind of cool, is so excessive that it's not usable.

Now to try the beige and see if the density is more of an issue than the color, which I suspect it is.


Black fishnet stockings, I tell you, not the typical tight weave hoseiry!

[Az2Africa]

Hi Robert. I use a black sheer scarf I got at Walmart for about $4.00. You can double it up if you need more softening.

[TMR Design]

Black fishnet stockings, I tell you, not the typical tight weave hoseiry!

Yeah Wilt, I see that now. I tried the beige and it was just as soft with an interesting sepia tone appearance.

Hi Robert. I use a black sheer scarf I got at Walmart for about $4.00. You can double it up if you need more softening.

What makes a black sheer scarf different from the hose material?

I think that before I try other materials I'm doing to try the Dean Collins lens diffuser using s pieces of picture frame glass and the mist from hair spray. It looks like a great idea but I've never tried it. So now I will, and then if that doesn't work I'll go over to Michaels, and then if I don't find anything I'll head back over to look for fishnets.

[Curtis N]

Cut the crotch out of a pair of your wife's fishnets. That part just gets in the way anyhow.

[Az2Africa]

The scarf was recommended by Alan Lowy at his Cave Creek Studios workshop just because it works and it's cheap.
http://www.cavecreek-photo.com/

[steveathome]

Cut the crotch out of a pair of your wife's fishnets. That part just gets in the way anyhow.

:D:D:D
Theres and answer to that but I'm not bold enough to type it.:o

[steveathome]

Hello Robert,
Not that I have experience of this sort of subject, but personally I think your diffusion panel at close range, IE softening the light source, is the way to go rather than softening the whole subject with lens diffusers.

It appears that your subject has this feature in such quantity, that it cannot be concealed by usual means, therefore, as it is so much part of the character of the subject, maybe you shouldn't be too concerned about trying to eliminate it altogether.

I'm sure you'll turn out a great job when it comes to it, if possible lets see the results.

Good luck.

[TMR Design]

Hi Steve,

Right now yours is the voice of reason. After a day of experimentation and reading the posts here and doing research, I've determined that my best bet is to create the softest light possible, work on my posing and lighting techniques, and create a quality portrait as I normally would.

I don't think that testing a new technique such as softening filters is the best idea for a shoot, unless I was going to shoot everyting twice, once with the filter and once without.... and I'm not going to do that.

The Softar 1 filter looks really cool, and noticably different from mesh and other materials but at $200+ I'm not inclined to make that purchase right now.