EOS 20D firmware hack is out

[timmyquest]

...


:twisted: :twisted:

[tommykjensen]

So whats the point of this useless post?

[aznkid.com]

want to cause a stir before his glorious 2000th post!

[FrenchAmateur]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/studiox/eos/eos.htm

[Belmondo]

---and I've heard they have a back focusing problem.

[FrenchAmateur]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Jesper]

Seriously, I've already read a post (not on the forums here) of somebody complaining that the 20D has more noise than the 10D..... :roll: :? and he was really convinced that it was true.

That guy concluded that since the 20D would have an 8.3MP, 1.6x sensor, the pixels will be smaller than the 10D's pixels, and that inevitably means it would have higher noise than the 10D.

Smaller pixels often means more noise, but I think it is much too early to make such a conclusion. Who knows what smart technology Canon implemented in the new camera and sensor.

[Tom W]

Seriously, I've already read a post (not on the forums here) of somebody complaining that the 20D has more noise than the 10D..... :roll: :? and he was really convinced that it was true.

That guy concluded that since the 20D would have an 8.3MP, 1.6x sensor, the pixels will be smaller than the 10D's pixels, and that inevitably means it would have higher noise than the 10D.

Smaller pixels often means more noise, but I think it is much too early to make such a conclusion. Who knows what smart technology Canon implemented in the new camera and sensor.

If higher pixel density were the only change, it would have more noise. But the design of the sensor and supporting hardware/software will probably bring about an equal or even better noise performance. At least I hope so.

[DReb-MO]

...


:twisted: :twisted:

So that would make it a 25D? Sad waste of Forum space.

[timmyquest]

Lots of people are saying this, and it's not that their claims dont have any merit, but why would canon do that...really?

[RikWriter]

Seriously, I've already read a post (not on the forums here) of somebody complaining that the 20D has more noise than the 10D..... :roll: :? and he was really convinced that it was true.

That guy concluded that since the 20D would have an 8.3MP, 1.6x sensor, the pixels will be smaller than the 10D's pixels, and that inevitably means it would have higher noise than the 10D.

Smaller pixels often means more noise, but I think it is much too early to make such a conclusion. Who knows what smart technology Canon implemented in the new camera and sensor.

If higher pixel density were the only change, it would have more noise. But the design of the sensor and supporting hardware/software will probably bring about an equal or even better noise performance. At least I hope so.

I hope so too, but given the problems with the 8mp sensors in the 8MP point and shoots, I worry. I won't be jumping at this camera for quite some time, either way, having just bought a 10D.

[Belmondo]

If anything, I'd be far more influenced by features added to or removed from the 10D before I'd ever get too excited about the 20D. Resolution is not everything---6.3mp has produced some stunning images for a lot of us, and an additional 1.8mp would add very little, especially at normal print/viewing sizes.

This reality is what convinced me to drop resolution when I changed my backup camera from a 10D to a 1D.

[elfyrulz]

I sure hope Canon lower 1D MarkII MSRP once 20D comes out.

[Belmondo]

I sure hope Canon lower 1D MarkII MSRP once 20D comes out.I don't necessarily see that happening. These are different cameras intended for different markets, and the limitations in the 20D are still sufficient to drive purchasers to the Mk II. 5-shot bursts are better than 3, but not nearly as good as 40. I suspect they'll lose very little of the 1D Mk II market to the 20D.

[Andy_T]

I sure hope Canon lower 1D MarkII MSRP once 20D comes out.

Actually, their marketing people are thinking day and night how they can avoid exactly that :twisted:

Best regards,
Andy

[cmM]

I sure hope Canon lower 1D MarkII MSRP once 20D comes out.

Actually, their marketing people are thinking day and night how they can avoid exactly that :twisted:

Best regards,
Andy
No matter what they do, the market will still be affected by the 20D. Whether they decrease the price of the MkII or lose some customers, Canon WILL lose money, but they will make it up by sales on the 20D (or at least they hope they will). Otherwise they wouldn't come up with new products.

[defordphoto]

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[eric1]

i don't know about the noise thing. seems i read over on FM that the new N!kon 2DX is supposed to have 12-15 megapixels on a 1.5 sensor. so i guess 8 doesn't sound like that many anymore. that is to say if N!kon ever actually release that camera!

[defordphoto]

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[eric1]

i wasn't comenting on the thought that 8.2 was better than 6. just the noise aspect of the two cameras. i too would rather have more dynamic range than 2 more MP. :D

[timmyquest]

i wasn't comenting on the thought that 8.2 was better than 6. just the noise aspect of the two cameras. i too would rather have more dynamic range than 2 more MP. :D

Why would canon release a camera with worse noise performance then an older camera!!!

Why cant people just drop this. When the reviews are in i will shut up crying or chase you down laughing.

[defordphoto]

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[defordphoto]

Removed by RFMSports

[eric1]

i wasn't comenting on the thought that 8.2 was better than 6. just the noise aspect of the two cameras. i too would rather have more dynamic range than 2 more MP. :D

My post was not directed at you, personally, but to the thread in general.

it's all good Jim, i was trying to reply to a post above about the noise relation of the 10D and it's successor. alot of people feel more MP on the same size sensorwill increase noise. this may or may not be true. i was pointing out that Nikon was trying to put out a 12-15 MP on a 1.5 sensor, so maybe the 2MP jump from the 10d to the 20D will not increase noise. i believe the digic II chip is also supposed to help with the noise profile.

thanks :)

[Persian-Rice]

Eric,

It is actually a fact that it will create more noise. If you want, I can give you the full theory behind the cause of camera noise, how ISO speeds effect it, what noise even is at its most basic form etc etc. Like yourself, I'm also hoping that their new processor will be able to diagnose and fix that problem, but time will only tell that.

Guys, the 20D is an improvement on the 10D, it's not in the price range nor even in the range of similar performance to the 1DMKII or even the 1d if you want to get deep into it. The 20D will have a great effect on the price of the 10D/300D, but I doubt it will effect the 1d models. Moral of the story, if someone needs a 1d, they will get a 1d, the 20d would not even be a part of their list...........Whether you have a 4 MP or 8 MP there wont any difference on standard or relatively larger print.

Cheers.

[friscomgm]

I don't think the 20D market is in the same league as 1D MKII market - the 1D MKII is still so clearly superior to the 20D it really still sets itself apart. Now less so than before when Canon had the 10D, but I still don't think the impact on the 1D MKII market will be as severe as some may think.

[roanjohn]

i wasn't comenting on the thought that 8.2 was better than 6. just the noise aspect of the two cameras. i too would rather have more dynamic range than 2 more MP. :D

Why would canon release a camera with worse noise performance then an older camera!!!

Why cant people just drop this. When the reviews are in i will shut up crying or chase you down laughing.

UUmmmm........its happened before............Look at the G5..........

And a better example........remember the Sony F828?? That camera was sub-par compared to the F717 in terms of noise and PF. So an upgrade in megapixels, AFAIK, is not a very good idea.

..............unless of course, the new Digic II will make these problems vanish in thin air.

Ro1

[roanjohn]

I sure hope Canon lower 1D MarkII MSRP once 20D comes out.

OMG, the difference between the 1 series and the xxD series cameras are HUGE!!!

Read the specs of the 1D, there are things there that the 10D doesn't even come close to.

I don't think this will affect the price of the Mark II at all. If anything, this will finally push those people waiting for the 10D upgrade to buy the Mark II, even just for the 1.3x crop factor.


Ro1

[timmyquest]

Aside from what people (10D owners) are saying this is a very important camera to canon. I have seen at least 5 people online go with the D70 because the 10D is too much and the D70 performed better then both.

The rumored price of $1300 proves my point, they need a camera that will prevent people from going with nikon. I'm not talking about a guy with $3000 in lenses and owns two canon DSLR's and an old EOS film camera.

You know it, i know it, and canon REALLY knows it. You get them in with a body, then you sell them flashes, lenses, more lenses, then they are forced to stick with canon.

Too many people have gone with nikon to buy their lenses and their flashes and their future bodies simply because the 300D/10D is lesser of a camera.

If this camera does not handle the noise properly, well it would be a huge mistake. People spending $1300 on a DSLR are not as uneducated as people buying a prosumer P&S. 8MP is not going to be the only reason they buy this camera.

[eric1]

If this camera does not handle the noise properly, well it would be a huge mistake. People spending $1300 on a DSLR are not as uneducated as people buying a prosumer P&S. 8MP is not going to be the only reason they buy this camera.

i agree with you TQ. i'd like to get the speed and buffer of the 20D. i don't like the start up time on my 10D. bottom line is picture quality. if it can't deliver, i won't upgrade.

[roanjohn]

Aside from what people (10D owners) are saying this is a very important camera to canon. I have seen at least 5 people online go with the D70 because the 10D is too much and the D70 performed better then both.

The rumored price of $1300 proves my point, they need a camera that will prevent people from going with nikon. I'm not talking about a guy with $3000 in lenses and owns two canon DSLR's and an old EOS film camera.

You know it, i know it, and canon REALLY knows it. You get them in with a body, then you sell them flashes, lenses, more lenses, then they are forced to stick with canon.

Too many people have gone with nikon to buy their lenses and their flashes and their future bodies simply because the 300D/10D is lesser of a camera.

If this camera does not handle the noise properly, well it would be a huge mistake. People spending $1300 on a DSLR are not as uneducated as people buying a prosumer P&S. 8MP is not going to be the only reason they buy this camera.

Thanks Timmy!! This is exactly my point. The 20D (if the leaked specs are correct) doesn't really surpass the D70 in terms of feature set.

The 20D still have the 1/200 xsync - the Nikon has 1/500.
The 20D will probably have a slower start up time against the Nikon D70 (I hope not).
And aside from the 9 point AF and 8 mpx, I don't know of any other reasons on not to just go ahead and purchase the cheaper N*kon.

................well....................we know the biggest reason.

............................L!!!!

But does the average consumer know that??

Ro1

[defordphoto]

Removed by RFMSports

[ron chappel]

With regards to the image quality/noise performance of the 20D-

If i was wanting a new camera i'd wait just a little bit to see first.The 10D has the best colour fidelity/image quality of any camera/film i've ever seen.
The 1D mkII concerns me slightly with it's ever so slight plasticlokk (from the noise reduction software) and imperfect colour...i worry abit that the 20D may not be automatically better than the 10D

[eric1]

With regards to the image quality/noise performance of the 20D-

If i was wanting a new camera i'd wait just a little bit to see first.The 10D has the best colour fidelity/image quality of any camera/film i've ever seen.
The 1D mkII concerns me slightly with it's ever so slight plasticlokk (from the noise reduction software) and imperfect colour...i worry abit that the 20D may not be automatically better than the 10D

yes, i'm just speculating for now. it will be Jan. before i'm ready to buy(unless it's REALLY good). :lol:

[defordphoto]

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[Jesper]

Seriously, I've already read a post (not on the forums here) of somebody complaining that the 20D has more noise than the 10D..... :roll: :? and he was really convinced that it was true.

That guy concluded that since the 20D would have an 8.3MP, 1.6x sensor, the pixels will be smaller than the 10D's pixels, and that inevitably means it would have higher noise than the 10D.

Smaller pixels often means more noise, but I think it is much too early to make such a conclusion. Who knows what smart technology Canon implemented in the new camera and sensor.

If higher pixel density were the only change, it would have more noise. But the design of the sensor and supporting hardware/software will probably bring about an equal or even better noise performance. At least I hope so.

I hope so too, but given the problems with the 8mp sensors in the 8MP point and shoots, I worry. I won't be jumping at this camera for quite some time, either way, having just bought a 10D.

A DSLR sensor, and certainly Canon's CMOS sensors, is something completely different than a small, point-and-shoot CCD sensor. The pixels on the P&S sensor are MUCH smaller (10 times as small or so) as the pixels on the average DSLR sensor. Even if they increase the number of pixels on a DSLR sensor, the noise will still not be anywhere near the noise of the typical P&S camera. No need to worry...

[neil_r]

The 1D mkII concerns me slightly with it's ever so slight plasticlokk (from the noise reduction software)

Translation please :?

N

[ron chappel]

:oops: :lol:
Sorry guys-that didn't come out right huh?
I meant plasticy..plastic looking.But i stress that this is a very slight thing and i may be wrong.

[briangig]

How much of a drop in price will there be on the 10D, say in maybe 6-8 months?

[ron chappel]

Good question.
I expect some will still want to buy a 10D for some reason that suits them but most of any left over will have to be discounted to sell.

Same as the D60's i saw on the net with $2100 on them :lol: when the 10D had been available for months at about $1600
That reseller was point blank *NOT* going to make a loss on those D60's if it took 10 years to find buyers too stupid to know any better :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[rraman]

Seriously, I've already read a post (not on the forums here) of somebody complaining that the 20D has more noise than the 10D..... :roll: :? and he was really convinced that it was true.

That guy concluded that since the 20D would have an 8.3MP, 1.6x sensor, the pixels will be smaller than the 10D's pixels, and that inevitably means it would have higher noise than the 10D.

Smaller pixels often means more noise, but I think it is much too early to make such a conclusion. Who knows what smart technology Canon implemented in the new camera and sensor.

If higher pixel density were the only change, it would have more noise. But the design of the sensor and supporting hardware/software will probably bring about an equal or even better noise performance. At least I hope so.

I hope so too, but given the problems with the 8mp sensors in the 8MP point and shoots, I worry. I won't be jumping at this camera for quite some time, either way, having just bought a 10D.

A DSLR sensor, and certainly Canon's CMOS sensors, is something completely different than a small, point-and-shoot CCD sensor. The pixels on the P&S sensor are MUCH smaller (10 times as small or so) as the pixels on the average DSLR sensor. Even if they increase the number of pixels on a DSLR sensor, the noise will still not be anywhere near the noise of the typical P&S camera. No need to worry...

Let's imagine 20D does have more noise at 8 MP, but as long as it performs at par (or better than) 10D at 6.3MP, then the additional couple of mega pixels may be thought of as bonus, right?

[Jesper]

This is from the Canon press release (http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedata/pressrelease/20040819_eos_20d.html) about the 20D:

Aside from the five frames-per-second burst rate, the EOS 20D digital SLR delivers superb low light performance and exceptionally low noise, even at high ISOs. In fact, images taken at ISO 1600 are approximately equal in noise to those taken with the EOS 10D model at ISO 400.
So, more pixels on a sensor of the same size does NOT automatically mean more noise.

I didn't think I was going to swap my 10D for a 20D, but THIS might be a selling point for me..... :)

[blinking8s]

good post TQ

[karusel]

I sure hope Canon lower 1D MarkII MSRP once 20D comes out.

Actually, their marketing people are thinking day and night how they can avoid exactly that :twisted:

Best regards,
Andy
No matter what they do, the market will still be affected by the 20D. Whether they decrease the price of the MkII or lose some customers, Canon WILL lose money, but they will make it up by sales on the 20D (or at least they hope they will). Otherwise they wouldn't come up with new products.

I think not. I agree with belmondo, those are differend markets and influence on each other is (almost?) zero.

Having a 10D myself I do not even consider the 20D. I'd rather have 1D but hope in a year or so the price of 1D MKII will drop to a reasonable level.

Also,
Aside from the five frames-per-second burst rate, the EOS 20D digital SLR delivers superb low light performance and exceptionally low noise, even at high ISOs. In fact, images taken at ISO 1600 are approximately equal in noise to those taken with the EOS 10D model at ISO 400., I call this bull**** and want to see samples. When available.

[timmyquest]

This is from the Canon press release (http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedata/pressrelease/20040819_eos_20d.html) about the 20D:

Aside from the five frames-per-second burst rate, the EOS 20D digital SLR delivers superb low light performance and exceptionally low noise, even at high ISOs. In fact, images taken at ISO 1600 are approximately equal in noise to those taken with the EOS 10D model at ISO 400.
So, more pixels on a sensor of the same size does NOT automatically mean more noise.

I didn't think I was going to swap my 10D for a 20D, but THIS might be a selling point for me..... :)

Hate to say i told ya so...well, no not really :lol:

[KennyG]

:oops: :lol:
Sorry guys-that didn't come out right huh?
I meant plasticy..plastic looking.But i stress that this is a very slight thing and i may be wrong.

Ron, you are not wrong. I have been using my MK-II in parallel with my original 1D and there are certainly issues that really concern me. Users coming from a 10D will generally be wowed by the difference but the story is very different for heavy 1D users like me.

There is a tendency for the detail to be lost in clipped and very bright areas giving a flat, featureless look to parts of the image. The 1D happily copes with this and a 4MP image appears over all to carry more detail than the MK-II's 8MP. Some of this can be recovered in post-processing, but for someone like me that would mean a huge amount of work after a weekend's shoot compared to the 1D where images hardly need to be touched. I suspect it is down to the MK-II's AA filter and noise reduction processing in the DIGIC-II.

My jury is still out on the MK-II, but at this point in time I wish I had bought a used 1D instead. I hate buyer's remorse.

[theoldmoose]

Also,
Aside from the five frames-per-second burst rate, the EOS 20D digital SLR delivers superb low light performance and exceptionally low noise, even at high ISOs. In fact, images taken at ISO 1600 are approximately equal in noise to those taken with the EOS 10D model at ISO 400., I call this bull**** and want to see samples. When available.

I'd say it may be stretching the truth a bit, that's for sure. See Michael Riechmann's signal-to-noise ratio charts at:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/20d-part1.shtml

Keep in mind that these tests were run against a single sample of a pre-production camera, and compared against a single sample of a 10D he had laying around.

At least it shows that the 20D's S/N ratio is no worse than the 10D, but it certainly doesn't show that ISO 1600 on the 20D is a good as ISO 400 on the 10D.

Maybe this will improve when the actual production cameras come out, but until then, it seems pretty far-fetched.

[ron chappel]

I thought the S/N ratios on the loonymouse landscape site were from canon.I guess i didn't read properly.
From what i remember the numbers were near dead identical-so no chance of 20D 1600 noise being near equal of 10D 400 noise.
I'll be pleasantly surprised if the 20D is that good :)


In any case,i can clear one thing up.The smaller pixel sites certainly DO make more noise but canon has used two techniques to bring the noise levels down .They use an 'on chip' noise reduction circuit and a microlens plate.
I can't remember ever hearing if the 10D has microlenses,but if so the 20D has better ones
Microlenses gather all the light hitting the pixel site and focus it onto the light gathering part of the pixel only,making the sensor more efficient.

Microlenses can also be used to make a sensor usable with wide angle lenses without vignetting.